1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,079 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. In Australia, 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: the massive manhunt continues for suspected cop killer Desi Freeman 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: in rural Victoria. Officers had gone to his remote property 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: in Porpunka with a search warrant, but were met with gunfire. 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 3: Two officers died at the scene. 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 2: Now hundreds of police officers are looking for the so 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 2: called sovereign citizen with a hatred of authority. Police have 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: also announced a one million dollar reward for information leading 11 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: to his arrest. A former magistrate apparently issued a stark 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: warning just weeks before the shooting about the sovereign citizen 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: movement in the country. He had told four Corners that 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: governments are underestimating the reach and threats of these movements. 15 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: So how do countries deal with growing sects of anti 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: government conspiracy theorists and what should New Zealand learn from 17 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: the tragic events in Portpunker. Today on the Front Page, 18 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: University of Otago Associate Professor Stephen Young is with us 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 2: to discuss these fringe groups and how we might deal 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 2: with them in future. 21 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: First off, Stephen, Let's start with an easy one. What 22 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 3: is a sovereign citizen? 23 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 4: You say this is easy, but I'm not sure that 24 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 4: it really is a sovereign citizen. Is that it's an 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 4: umbrella term that we use to refer to various groups. 26 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 4: There are groups and individuals who largely believe that they 27 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 4: are independent or they have a way of the state. 28 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 4: What we think as scholars and researchers these people, what 29 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 4: sort of ties them all together is that they use 30 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 4: something called pseudo law. And again this is our term 31 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 4: for them. They wouldn't see it this way, but we 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 4: say they use a legal system that doesn't have any 33 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 4: authority to us, But they think we have a corrupt 34 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 4: system and they have the true law. So according to them, 35 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 4: they have a law that sort of supersedes ours, I guess, 36 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,839 Speaker 4: and we say that they have a law that has 37 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 4: no authority at all, it just looks like nonsense and 38 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 4: gibbers to us. 39 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: So that's essentially who sovereign citizens are. 40 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: Because I did read somewhere that the term sovereign citizen 41 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: isn't universally liked by those people, I suppose that is 42 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: there another term that they use to describe themselves. 43 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: Or you know, it's hard. 44 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 4: There isn't a consistent term that they use because these movements, 45 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 4: these groups are very diverse. They identify themselves in various ways, 46 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 4: so it's not like we can say, oh, they're one thing. 47 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: And we can call them that. 48 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 4: So part of the trouble that we have is terminolot 49 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 4: of people. We say they're sovereign citizens, and they'll say, no, 50 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 4: that's not us, that's an oxymoron, and then they'll sort of, 51 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 4: you know, describe why it is. We agree it is 52 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 4: an oxymoron, but that is a term that was used 53 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 4: in the United States in the nineteen nineties by some 54 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 4: of these people. It's just that's sort of when this 55 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 4: term came big. 56 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 5: Well, it must be because they come from so many 57 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 5: different groups. 58 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: It must be quite difficult to kind of quantify how 59 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: serious the situation is here, right. 60 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. It's really hard to quantify. 61 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 4: We I should say, I don't know how many there 62 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 4: are there. 63 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: I have seen reports. 64 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 4: There's an intelligence report and police report that says there's 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 4: a dozen groups in New Zealand and maybe twelve hundred people, 66 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 4: but we don't know. That could be a huge underrepresentation. 67 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 4: Probably is considering how much we're seeing a sort of 68 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 4: pop up, But we don't know exactly how many people 69 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 4: are out there that we would actually qualify or count 70 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 4: as sovereign citizens or as suer law appearance. 71 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 2: And in terms of their beliefs as well, I believe 72 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: that it goes from very kind of low. You know, 73 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: they will drive without a driver's license because they don't 74 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: believe in in the conformity of driver's licenses all the 75 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 2: way through. 76 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 3: It can get pretty violent. 77 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: So in terms of how they impact the courts and 78 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: local government and I guess other aspects of society, how 79 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: does that all work? 80 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's another great question. 81 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 4: There is a range of activities that engage in Some 82 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 4: of them are more sort of paramilitary type of activity 83 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 4: associated with militia movements. Of course that's the United States. 84 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 4: We haven't seen that here in Altadro and New Zealand. 85 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 4: I hope that we don't see that here, but there 86 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 4: are some threats that's sort of a rise in the 87 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 4: New Zealand context. The biggest one and perhaps the most problematic, 88 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 4: is that they file lots of paperwork. They're quite litigious 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 4: and they'll appeal. They'll appeal anything including rates payments rates increases. 90 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 4: If there's a limb that sort of impacts the properly, 91 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 4: anywhere they will dispute this, they will appeal it. Usually 92 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 4: we would say, you know, it's fine for people to 93 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 4: dispute things and to use legal processes, but if they're 94 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 4: also invoking legal conspiracies or archaic and irrelevant legal materials 95 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 4: to do this, it's a waste of time. And that's 96 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 4: the biggest problem is that if local councils, if government 97 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 4: actors of courts have to spend resources responding to these 98 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 4: requests or to these problems, that means they're not spending 99 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 4: money on public needs which are really important. And it means 100 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 4: that we people who are complying are actually paying for 101 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 4: the conspiracies down the line. And this is a problem. 102 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 4: I think that's the largest one. The other is ideological, 103 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 4: meaning they don't believe in government, they don't trust the state, 104 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 4: and they're working in certain ways to undermine it. And 105 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 4: as you pointed out, the third sort of area where 106 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 4: there's a risk is with violence. 107 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: It's a low risk, but it's still there. 108 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And in terms of all of that paperwork and 109 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: I guess clogging up the system is there little to 110 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: do about that because of democracy. 111 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 3: I suppose you're. 112 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 4: Asking great questions. I think that there are ways to 113 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 4: streamline it. I'm not sure that we've really sort of 114 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 4: instituted policies to do this. I know that in courts, 115 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 4: if there's India that the seal law and that the 116 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 4: claim has no merit, the register can sort of flag 117 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 4: this as a claim and it can go to a 118 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 4: judge and they can say, Okay, this has no merit, 119 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 4: we're not dealing with it. Just get out of court, 120 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 4: and then they have to sort of ventilate the claim 121 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 4: in court, which saves time in the long run, but 122 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 4: it's still sort of an intensive process as far as 123 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 4: I know. Local councils, employment tribunals don't really have processes 124 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 4: in place, so when they cee suit a law, they 125 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 4: can just sort of stamp it and reject it. And 126 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 4: of course local councils can't just reject things from citizens. 127 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 4: They have to deal with them, which makes local councils 128 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 4: kind of a target for this type of overload of information. 129 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 6: Since Daisy Freeman is accused of opening fire and killing 130 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 6: it to police officers and attempting it to murder a 131 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 6: third police have received one thousand phone calls to crime stoppers. 132 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 6: In terms of what it's like here on the ground, 133 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 6: there are still more than four hundred and fifty police 134 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 6: members from Victoria, New South Wales and South Australia working 135 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 6: tirelessly to bring this man to justice, and they say 136 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 6: they will not stop until that is done. 137 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: Now, of course, we're talking about this subject while police 138 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: in Australia are looking for a man. His name's Desi Freeman, 139 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 2: and he is a so called sovereign citizen. And I 140 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: found it interesting actually in Australia, a couple of weeks 141 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: before this incident happened, a former magistrate apparently actually issued 142 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: a warning about sovereign citizens there. 143 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 5: In terms of here in New Zealand, should we be worried? 144 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 4: That's hard to say. We haven't seen that type of 145 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 4: violence from sovereign citizens here, but we know that they're active, 146 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 4: and this indicates that there is a latent possibility of violence. 147 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 4: I think I don't want to be sort of prosthetic 148 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 4: or anything like that. I really hope that I'm wrong, 149 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 4: but I think there is the possibility of violence. There's 150 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 4: that report I mentioned from intelligence. Police even indicated that 151 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 4: at some point, it's likely that there's going to be 152 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 4: some sort of unknown violence that occurs from these people. 153 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 4: We just don't know when it's going to arise or how. 154 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 4: We have seen very sort of low level violence by 155 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 4: sovereign citizens here. There was a common law sheriff that 156 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 4: basically showed up at a council and attacked someone, and 157 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 4: then another one went into a former mayor's house and 158 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 4: declared that they own the house. I'm not sure that 159 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 4: counts as violence. It might have just been more terrifying. 160 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 4: It's definitely a trespass, but I'm not sure it's like 161 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 4: the high level violence that really gets under people's skin 162 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 4: and motivates them to pack. 163 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: Well. 164 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: You mentioned the US before, and that's interesting because it 165 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: is a huge becoming a huge issue there. I saw 166 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 2: that there are large numbers of violent incidents there. The 167 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: FBI has labeled sovereign citizens a domestic terrorism threat. Do 168 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: you think we should do the same here, really front 169 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: foot the issue or do you think that's quite an 170 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: extreme approach. 171 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 4: That is an extreme approach and is because of extremists 172 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 4: in the United States has quite a few extremists. The 173 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 4: history of the United States shows that there's quite a 174 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 4: few of them, so a researcher there, Christine Sartowski, has 175 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 4: noted in six hundred by events of violence by sovereign 176 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 4: citizens over the last twenty years or thirty years, so 177 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 4: that it's quite a bit more than we have here, 178 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 4: I would say, so, I think the concern in the 179 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 4: United States is larger than it is here, and what 180 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 4: we're seeing now in Australia also indicates that this is 181 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 4: becoming more violent there. I don't know if that means 182 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 4: it's going to become violent here. I think when we 183 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 4: start to see indications that is, I think we have 184 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 4: to take that seriously. I will say, however, there already 185 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 4: are indications that the government has responded to the serious threats. 186 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 4: So they made a list of people that they thought 187 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 4: could be sovereign citizens, and I think they've built gun 188 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 4: licenses from sixty or so of them. So this is 189 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 4: a preventative measure and I think that the government has 190 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 4: done a good job with that. I'm not sure that 191 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 4: they need to declare them in domestic terrorists here. 192 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: I saw that experts in Australia who have been tracking 193 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: the sovereign citizen movement there was they said that there 194 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: was a clear inflection point, and that was something over 195 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: there called the Convoy to Canberra. It was a protest 196 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: held outside Parliament House in early twenty twenty two. That 197 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: was the largest protest ever held on the steps of 198 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: Parliament in Canberra and was attended by citizens, anti vaxxers 199 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: and activists protesting COVID restrictions imposed by governments. 200 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 5: Now that sounds somewhat familiar, doesn't it. 201 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 2: How did co Yeah, how did COVID exacerbate the growth 202 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: and visibility of these groups? 203 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 4: I would say COVID was an accelerant or citizen movement 204 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 4: and pseudo law here. 205 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 1: Typically, whenever there's. 206 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 4: A societal crisis, people want to explain it in some way. 207 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: COVID was particularly. 208 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 4: Impactful because it's combined a bunch of things that people 209 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 4: don't like, like doctors and medical intervention, telling people that 210 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 4: they need to get shots, having mandates about this really 211 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 4: got under people's skin. 212 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,479 Speaker 1: It felt like to many people government intrusion. 213 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 4: The ability to lock down the country to prevent people 214 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 4: from going out of their house. 215 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: That's a restriction of freedom of movement. 216 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 4: If you believe that the government is doing things wrong, 217 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 4: you might go look for reasons online for that. Unfortunately, 218 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 4: many people found pseudo law and found these sovereign system ideas, 219 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 4: and that's why we think there has been such a 220 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 4: growth in this movement since COVID. It's unfortunate, but I 221 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 4: think it's kind of here to stay. 222 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,479 Speaker 2: Do you think that even the presence of sovereign citizens 223 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: and people who believe in pseudo law is an indication 224 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: that perhaps. 225 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 3: Democracy is working? I suppose. 226 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: I mean what I'm getting at is, do you think 227 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: there are any sovereign citizens in China? Or are there 228 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: sovereign citizens groups in North Korea? 229 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 3: If I was going to take it that far, their. 230 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: Presence alone, Yeah, their presence alone and their ability to 231 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 2: speak out against the government is an indication surely that 232 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: we have a good doctor democratic society. 233 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: I like this question. 234 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 4: I haven't heard this question before, so my sense is 235 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 4: that people are allowed to speak out here. They have 236 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 4: freedom of speech, so we hear about that in ways 237 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 4: that maybe went This also means that the ideas travel online, 238 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 4: it can spread easier. But I will also say I 239 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 4: think that sovereign citizens moves and pseudolow rose when people 240 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 4: feel like government's not working for them. So we might 241 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 4: say on the one hand, it's indicative that democracy is working. 242 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 4: But on the other hand, I think they're also feeling 243 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 4: inequality and problems in society, and they're looking for reasons. 244 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: To explain that. The problem is they're not really explaining it. 245 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 4: They're finding conspiracy theories, right, And that's the problem here, 246 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 4: that it's not helping solve the problem, it's actually compounding 247 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 4: the problems. 248 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: What do you think the government here could do in preparation? 249 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: I suppose, And is there any reasoning with these people? 250 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: That's good? 251 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 4: So there's two questions. The one is there reasoning with them? 252 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 4: It's hard to say. I'm not directly involved in speaking 253 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 4: to many of them, so based I'm just sort of 254 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 4: speaking based upon the research. 255 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: That I know. 256 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 4: There's an indication that people have these beliefs. 257 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: You can't deprogram them. 258 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 4: So when they believe that the government is corrupt, they're 259 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 4: going to believe the government is corrupt. If they believe 260 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 4: it's been taken over by a corporation, they're going to 261 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 4: continue to believe that. 262 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: There is some research that. 263 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 4: Indicates if they're also suffering from mental illness, then they 264 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 4: can be treated. That's not to say all these people 265 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 4: are suffering from mental illnesses. But if they have mental illness, 266 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 4: that can be treated, and this will also decrease their 267 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 4: activity level, so they won't be necessarily online obsessive and 268 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 4: spreading these messages, which means that there can be I 269 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 4: think prophylactic measures adopted. I think there could be perhaps 270 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 4: more regulation of social media, but this starts to wait 271 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 4: into territory. 272 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: That makes me very uncomfortable. 273 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 4: Because if there's nothing illegal about selling bad legal advice, 274 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 4: or engaging in political discussion or even conspiracy theories, this 275 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 4: is all perfectly legal. And if we say, you know, 276 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 4: we start should regulate this in some way, it starts 277 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 4: to look like. 278 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: It's infringing on free speech in certain ways and. 279 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 3: Kind of proving their point. 280 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: It proves their points. 281 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the state might become somewhat of the 282 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 4: tyrannical government that they accuse it of being, and that's 283 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 4: certainly not what we want as a non conspiracy theorist. 284 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 4: I don't want a tyrannical government either. So it's really 285 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 4: tricky in terms of figuring out what the best way 286 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 4: to respond is. 287 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: And I suppose just teetering over that line of oh, 288 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: these people are crazy, they're filing so much paperwork, and 289 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: then the other line, which is quite you know, we 290 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: don't know how far away it is at that violence 291 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: aspect as well. Really balancing up those two. 292 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 4: Is yeah, it's really hard. I mean, we know that 293 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 4: they're filing lots of paperwork. We know that's coming up 294 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 4: local councils and courts and employment tribunals. We know that 295 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 4: this is a major part of criminal dockets now. So 296 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 4: there's a big question about how do we start to 297 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 4: do this, how do we start to unravel this? 298 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure. 299 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 4: I think if we sort of pine the sky type thing, 300 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 4: if we start to think about making a society where 301 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 4: people don't have reasons to believe in conspiracy theories, then 302 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 4: they're not going to be attracted to pseudo law. They're 303 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 4: not going to hate the government or think that it's 304 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 4: working against them. I think part of this also has 305 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 4: to do with big business and banks, because part of 306 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 4: the narrative is that banks have more power than people 307 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 4: and that the government is in cahoote with banks. So 308 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 4: I think that there's a problem here. There's sort of 309 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 4: a critique they have here of the current sort of 310 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 4: capitalistic system and how it's running monk, but they don't 311 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 4: articulate it in those words. 312 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Steven. 313 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: Of course, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. 314 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 315 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 316 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 2: at enzherld, dot co dot MZ. 317 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 5: The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye. 318 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 2: And Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. 319 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 320 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 321 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.