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Speaker 1: The government is moving on intervention as courts over customary

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Speaker 1: rights to coastlines. Of course they will change the Marine

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Speaker 1: and Coastal are Ier Act, basically taking it back to

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Speaker 1: what it was before the courts got involved in the

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Speaker 1: first place. Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is well, this very

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Speaker 1: good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, how are you?

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Speaker 1: How? I'm well, thank you. How much of this is

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Speaker 1: about a coalition deal and how much of this is

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Speaker 1: really hand on hard about the right thing to do?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's very much about the right thing to do.

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Speaker 2: What we're doing is say, be asserting that all New

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Speaker 2: Zealanders have an interest in what happens in the postal

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Speaker 2: and marine areas. But we also recognize customary marine title

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Speaker 2: through the legislation. But Parliament always set a very high

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Speaker 2: bar for that because it does give valuable rights. It

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Speaker 2: gives the ability of people who have the customary marine

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Speaker 2: title the ability to grant resource consents or not in

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Speaker 2: particular areas for things such as aquaculture. So it's valuable

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Speaker 2: rights and that goes against the normal assumption that people

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Speaker 2: will have an equals say and what goes on in

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Speaker 2: their environment. And so we set a high threshold in

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Speaker 2: the legislation, the courts effectively materially reduced that threshold, and

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Speaker 2: that's why we're making the unusual step of overriding the

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Speaker 2: courts and restating what we thought was quite clear.

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Speaker 1: So are the courts overreached, Well.

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Speaker 2: We disagreed with the Court of Appeal absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Is there too much interventionism from courts these days in general?

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Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I mean there's what's called a committee

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Speaker 2: between the different branches of government and I don't seek

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Speaker 2: to undermine that or to be critical of the courts

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Speaker 2: in general. It's a very unusual step, but Parliament is sovereign.

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Speaker 2: It says the laws, and in this case, we thought

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Speaker 2: we set a high test for what is a very

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Speaker 2: significant move away from what people would expect in terms

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Speaker 2: of having their say about what happens in the coastal area. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: we set a high test and we're going to make

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Speaker 2: sure that that sticks when.

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Speaker 1: They set the lower bar. Are there practice out workings

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Speaker 1: where things have gone wrong as a result of that decision?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's it's a long, slow process. So what we've

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Speaker 2: had there have been nine cases that have been decided

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Speaker 2: that will we're not going to overturn those specific cases

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Speaker 2: and the consequences of that haven't really flown through. But ultimately,

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Speaker 2: as I say, if you have customery marine title, that

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Speaker 2: group does has the ability to decline resort consents in

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Speaker 2: that area. And you know just what that means. You know,

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Speaker 2: there are things that are excluded. They can't you stop

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Speaker 2: existing infrastructure, for example, But for new infrastructure there is

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Speaker 2: quite a difficult and detailed process to work your way through.

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Speaker 2: And for things such as agriculture, it's just yes or no.

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Speaker 2: Now that's now, that's a that's a big deal, and

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Speaker 2: that's why we set a high test before that could

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Speaker 2: be given exactly.

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Speaker 1: So where does it and the reason I ask about you,

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Speaker 1: I mean you you are the ultimate court of the land,

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Speaker 1: of course, but where does and and the refine funding

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Speaker 1: problems currently, as you're well aware where some of the

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Speaker 1: Marri cases going to court in the first place. What's

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Speaker 1: the point of funding Marie cases to go to court

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Speaker 1: of the governments then going to overturn the court. I

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Speaker 1: mean that's just going run around in circles, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, but I mean we set up the system

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Speaker 2: the previous National government with the support of the multi

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Speaker 2: party with that threshold that was a high threshold recognizing

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Speaker 2: mari customary rights while protecting the legitimate interests of all

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Speaker 2: New Zealanders. We passed the law and that's the process,

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately it has gone awry given a decision that

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Speaker 2: we think materially reduced that and so we've got to

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Speaker 2: tidy that up. But we will continue with the process

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Speaker 2: and there will be parts of the coastline that come

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Speaker 2: under customary marine title and there are certainly parts around

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Speaker 2: on the far east coast where Marie have held the

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Speaker 2: land along the coastline since eighteen forty and that makes

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Speaker 2: sense and that it is legitimate and that's what the

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Speaker 2: purpose of the legislation is.

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Speaker 1: All right. Good to talk to you, and a good weekend,

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Speaker 1: Paul Goldsmith, Justice Minister.

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