1
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,760
Speaker 1: Cielda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

2
00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:17,520
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. In

3
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,600
Speaker 1: recent years, drug busts at New Zealand's border keep getting bigger,

4
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,520
Speaker 1: with record breaking holes getting stopped by officials. But drugs

5
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,000
Speaker 1: are still getting into the country and we all know

6
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 1: that what people think they're buying on the street will

7
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,879
Speaker 1: not necessarily be what they get, and some people may

8
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 1: be consuming synthetic opioids without ever realizing they're putting their

9
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:44,080
Speaker 1: health at risk. Today on the Front Page, Drug Foundation

10
00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,159
Speaker 1: Executive Director Sarah helm joins us to discuss the new

11
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:54,760
Speaker 1: drug that has got her organization worried. Sarah, we see

12
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,720
Speaker 1: stories on the Herald website almost every week about a

13
00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 1: drug bust in New Zealand. How many kilogram of drugs

14
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,080
Speaker 1: do you believe actually entering and making it into the country.

15
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,560
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not sure if I know the volume of

16
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 2: drugs making it into the country off the top of

17
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 2: my head. But drug busts only do one part of

18
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,959
Speaker 2: the job. And in fact, some would argue the way

19
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 2: that we're handling drugs, or we police them rather than

20
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:24,200
Speaker 2: regulating them, contributes to a growing concern around potency and

21
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 2: unpredictability of our drug supply, resulting an increasing threat to

22
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 2: life because of our drug supply, and.

23
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,160
Speaker 1: In terms of the supply, I guess it's quite difficult

24
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 1: to get it into the country. Hey, so is a

25
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 1: lot being made and developed actually here in New Zealand.

26
00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,800
Speaker 2: But no, it's spy and large important and comes from

27
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,520
Speaker 2: a variety of places. Our drug supply over the years

28
00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 2: has become more unpredictable, so there's many more novel substances

29
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 2: being created and increasingly potent. And there are different theories

30
00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:02,480
Speaker 2: around this, but basically, the idea that incentivizes the drug

31
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 2: supply chain to get the drug as small as possible,

32
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 2: suppotency lends itself to something being very small and therefore

33
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,880
Speaker 2: much more easily able to be smuggled into the country.

34
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 3: And the new novel substances are.

35
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,120
Speaker 2: Being created to try and get around drug law, so

36
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,840
Speaker 2: they create a new drug that mimics the effects of

37
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 2: it an existing substance, and unfortunately, every time one of

38
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 2: those is created, we don't know what the impact on

39
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,560
Speaker 2: the human body will be. And that's where we see

40
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 2: some really concerning impacts for people and their health in

41
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:33,280
Speaker 2: their lives.

42
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,800
Speaker 1: What would you say is the most common drug on

43
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 1: the streets in New Zealand at the moment?

44
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,840
Speaker 2: Well, alcohol ha, but still by far and away the

45
00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 2: more common drugs that people use are alcohol not to

46
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,600
Speaker 2: be too gg because it is a drug and some

47
00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,760
Speaker 2: of its effects are more harmful than many of our

48
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 2: illicit substances, and cannabis is the drug that most New

49
00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,720
Speaker 2: Zealanders have tried as well in the illicit side.

50
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,560
Speaker 3: And then other drugs are much less likely to be

51
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 3: being used.

52
00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,240
Speaker 2: It's a small population that use other substances, and we

53
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,000
Speaker 2: do continue to have methmphetamine and MDMA being quite common

54
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,520
Speaker 2: in the much less common side of things.

55
00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,920
Speaker 1: There were fears last year that fentanyl was starting to

56
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 1: get into New Zealand, but we haven't heard much since then.

57
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,600
Speaker 1: Why do you think fentanyl hasn't really found a footing

58
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,600
Speaker 1: here and we haven't had an epidemics, say, like the US?

59
00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, the US and North America more broadly so, Canada

60
00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,960
Speaker 2: has ended up with quite a significant issue with superpotent opioids,

61
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 2: specially fentanyl, and they had a particular set of situations

62
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,760
Speaker 2: that arise in North America that I think helped to

63
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,360
Speaker 2: create that situation, one of which was a pre existing

64
00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 2: addiction to prescription opioids and then some changes around the

65
00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:57,280
Speaker 2: availability of those prescription opioids. The arrival of fentanyl really

66
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 2: spoke to a need in the community, but unfortunately has

67
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,680
Speaker 2: had very dire consequences on the community, and we haven't

68
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,520
Speaker 2: had the same prescription drug issues, and we haven't had

69
00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 2: it arrived here. We are the bottom of the earth,

70
00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 2: so it takes a long time for things to arrive.

71
00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 2: But actually fentanyl hasn't really had a big presence anywhere

72
00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 2: in the world aside from North America. However, we are

73
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,400
Speaker 2: internationally saying the rise of a newer potent opioid, a

74
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 2: group of potent opioids I should say called nitizines.

75
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,360
Speaker 4: New Zealand's seen illicit ventanyl use before seven people were

76
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 4: taken to wide it up a hospital in twenty twenty

77
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,039
Speaker 4: two after taking it empowdered form a class B drug,

78
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,000
Speaker 4: fentanyl can be prescribed for pain relief. In twenty twenty two,

79
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,640
Speaker 4: more than eight thousand people accessed it, but in the

80
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,360
Speaker 4: past year it's the emergence of nitizines, twenty five times

81
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 4: more potent than ventanyl, that has experts concerned.

82
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was about to say, so.

83
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 1: Netazines are being called the new ventanyl in Europe. I

84
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 1: know that Bristol alone saw seven deaths and over eighty

85
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,800
Speaker 1: hospitalizations in just one summer after the drug was found

86
00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,719
Speaker 1: in a heroin supplies supply. Can you tell me what

87
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,159
Speaker 1: they are and do you agree with this definition that

88
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:22,240
Speaker 1: they are the new fentanyl?

89
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,960
Speaker 2: You are They actually more potent than fentanyl, and some

90
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,039
Speaker 2: as many as twenty five times more potent than fentanyl.

91
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,359
Speaker 3: Again, we have a.

92
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,080
Speaker 2: Different situation here than Europe, but we do have an

93
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 2: issue here. Europe has had a long standing heroin use

94
00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,839
Speaker 2: population and with Afghanistan no longer producing as much heroin

95
00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,440
Speaker 2: and the clamp down there, nitizines are arriving and are

96
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,240
Speaker 2: unfortunately again having really dire consequences for a group of

97
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 2: people who have opioid addiction in particular. But we are

98
00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,280
Speaker 2: seeingnitizines both in Europe and in our out of the

99
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,840
Speaker 2: world Australia and New Zealand entering into our drug market

100
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,599
Speaker 2: in the non opioid side of things as well. So

101
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 2: particularly in Europe that from what I hear from people

102
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 2: on the ground, adulteration of benzo diazepines, which over their

103
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,520
Speaker 2: street benzos are super cheap, and we've seen some of

104
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 2: that occur here as well, and in Australia. Nitizines are

105
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,960
Speaker 2: turning up as methmphetamine and MDMA. So we're already experiencing

106
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,279
Speaker 2: loss of life and we're very worried about what the

107
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 2: coming months or years might mean for us.

108
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean netazines. I read somewhere A dose as

109
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 1: small as a grain of sand can be deadly, especially

110
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 1: if you don't know if you're taking it. They're showing

111
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,240
Speaker 1: up in more common drugs. People aren't going out to

112
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:46,640
Speaker 1: seek netazines, are they?

113
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 3: Yeah?

114
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,719
Speaker 2: No, Well, for example, I visited Canada last year early

115
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,279
Speaker 2: last year and saw and spoke to a number of

116
00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,320
Speaker 2: people working on the front line and a number of

117
00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,919
Speaker 2: people who had addiction and drug use experience.

118
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:02,280
Speaker 3: For lack of a better word.

119
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,000
Speaker 2: Indeed, people had started to seek out ventanyl. They wanted

120
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,320
Speaker 2: ventanyl rather than trying to avoid it. Over Here, by

121
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,000
Speaker 2: and large, we still have a community that are wanting

122
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 2: to test for and avoid neitizines and ventanyl, which is

123
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,920
Speaker 2: really great and what we hope to continue. But there

124
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 2: are always a group of people that have opioid addiction

125
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,480
Speaker 2: that might be more inclined to seek out a drug

126
00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,240
Speaker 2: that might be cheap and very potent.

127
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,440
Speaker 3: So we also try not.

128
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,960
Speaker 2: To judge people and provide harm reduction advice and testing

129
00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,480
Speaker 2: so people are best off when they know what it

130
00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,440
Speaker 2: is that they're taking. But by and large our community

131
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 2: here it's still looking to avoid potent opioids and we

132
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,640
Speaker 2: have some new technology to support them. Much I could

133
00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 2: tea about as well.

134
00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,520
Speaker 1: That's the thing, hey, I mean, getting your drugs tested

135
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 1: isn't illegal.

136
00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's great.

137
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 2: So New Zealand does have a couple of things on

138
00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,640
Speaker 2: our side that other countries haven't had the privilege of having.

139
00:07:59,160 --> 00:07:59,800
Speaker 3: And one of what.

140
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 2: Is our fully legalized drug checking services, and another is

141
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 2: our early warning system, which unlike many other places where

142
00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 2: they've even been able to have one, it's got government

143
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 2: involvement as well as civil society. So we're working together

144
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,080
Speaker 2: on that early warning system and testing people substances to

145
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,240
Speaker 2: better inform the community so that they can make decisions

146
00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 2: get their drugs tested. Actually we give.

147
00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,600
Speaker 3: Them harm reduction advice when they come in and get

148
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,040
Speaker 3: their drugs checked as well.

149
00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 2: And another thing we recently got on board was something

150
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,400
Speaker 2: called this is in test strips. So we also have

151
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,240
Speaker 2: fentanyl test strips and they're free, so we can send

152
00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,880
Speaker 2: people a pack of test strips so that they can

153
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,000
Speaker 2: test their own substances. If they haven't made it to

154
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 2: a drug checking clinic or aren't living close enough to one,

155
00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 2: we at least can send them test strips so that

156
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,520
Speaker 2: they can identify if they've got a very potent substance

157
00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,040
Speaker 2: in their drug, which I would rarely encourage anyone who's

158
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 2: taking illictit substances at this point, all counterfeit medications to

159
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,880
Speaker 2: test with nitizine and ventical test strips.

160
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 1: Is it silly to think that because fentanyl hasn't had

161
00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 1: a huge stronghold in New Zealand, that would be also

162
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 1: immune to netazines as well.

163
00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 2: Okay, yes and no, we've got a very small population

164
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 2: who are opioid dependent. But I do think that there

165
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,319
Speaker 2: are groups of our population that would be really severely

166
00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 2: negatively impacted and face overdose fatalities as a result of

167
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 2: a growing presence of nitizines or potent substances.

168
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,439
Speaker 3: And when I walked.

169
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,680
Speaker 2: Through the streets of Vancouver and Toronto and saw people

170
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:57,520
Speaker 2: overdosed and no one helping them, I grew very worried

171
00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,760
Speaker 2: about our communities.

172
00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 3: That will be more likely to be impacted.

173
00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, I really don't want that for our people

174
00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 2: here in New Zealand.

175
00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 3: Whether it's the.

176
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,480
Speaker 2: Groups of university students that one of our staff members experienced,

177
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,199
Speaker 2: a loss of a number of her friends at university

178
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,240
Speaker 2: in Canada who had unwittingly taken ventanyl when they were

179
00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:26,080
Speaker 2: consuming ndmay, or the homeless people who are experiencing addiction there.

180
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 2: For example, the man I tended to on the street

181
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,319
Speaker 2: in Vancouver who had passed out and gone blew, most

182
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,680
Speaker 2: likely from ventanyl. Luckily I was able to help resuscitate him.

183
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,719
Speaker 2: But I don't want that for our homeless community, our

184
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,080
Speaker 2: community of people who take more of society's trickier substances,

185
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,080
Speaker 2: nor our occasional recreational drug users to face fatalities. You know,

186
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,680
Speaker 2: I know people who have lost people in North America

187
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,839
Speaker 2: off the back of somebody accidentally taking the wrong thing.

188
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 2: So we need to do everything we can to prevent

189
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:00,679
Speaker 2: being situation.

190
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,960
Speaker 1: It's just heartbreaking. Hey, and I guess on your first

191
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 1: hand experience, you've seen what happens to communities when this

192
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,000
Speaker 1: drug takes a stronghold. How prepared do you think New

193
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,199
Speaker 1: Zealand is or are we completely unprepared?

194
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've spoken to the good things that we've done,

195
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,000
Speaker 2: which I'm really happy that we have, but we've got

196
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,839
Speaker 2: a long way to go. New Zealand's never really had

197
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,280
Speaker 2: an overdose strategy or plan. We've ignored the overdose fatalities

198
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,280
Speaker 2: we've had. We've rested on our laurels, thinking we don't

199
00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,720
Speaker 2: have as many as other people. Actually we're losing I

200
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 2: think from memories, something like one hundred and seventy New

201
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,240
Speaker 2: Zealanders each year to overdose a couple each week, and

202
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,840
Speaker 2: we could do better anyway. But in terms of being

203
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,840
Speaker 2: prepared for more of a concerning presence of very potient opioids,

204
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,160
Speaker 2: there's a number of things.

205
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:50,560
Speaker 3: That we could do.

206
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,560
Speaker 2: We released a plan of types of overdose interventions that

207
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 2: we need to put in place, but I would point

208
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,400
Speaker 2: to a few in particular. There's a medicine called na

209
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:05,679
Speaker 2: lozone the Americans call it NACAN, and we have been

210
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,880
Speaker 2: over several years whittling away at the system trying to

211
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,160
Speaker 2: unlock that for the community. So where we've gotten to

212
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,320
Speaker 2: is that there are some injectable forms of this iner

213
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 2: lockzone that are available at needle exchanges, but we still

214
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,840
Speaker 2: don't have proper access to a nasal spray variety which

215
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,320
Speaker 2: would be more able to be given out and used

216
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,280
Speaker 2: by lay people. So we have put in a funding

217
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,319
Speaker 2: application to pharmac and the committee that is in charge

218
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,080
Speaker 2: of these things are recommended it be funded. Now we're

219
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,480
Speaker 2: just waiting to see if it makes it into the budget.

220
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,559
Speaker 2: That would be a big important thing to have because

221
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 2: you can imagine, say you have an event at a

222
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,560
Speaker 2: university orientation and suddenly there are a bunch of people

223
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,480
Speaker 2: overdosing having narcan or no locks on there on hand.

224
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,120
Speaker 3: So it's not only the potence of the substance.

225
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 2: That time that it takes with somebody to shift from

226
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 2: overdose to a fatality is very short, so waiting.

227
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,720
Speaker 3: For the ambulance can be too long that the person

228
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 3: may die.

229
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,559
Speaker 2: So having the lock zone on hand and available at

230
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,559
Speaker 2: events of high risk or say a first responder who's

231
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,560
Speaker 2: not an ambulance turns up, having them being able to

232
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,720
Speaker 2: carry in a locks own, let alone the drug user

233
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,719
Speaker 2: themselves and the people who love them and.

234
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 3: Are around them. So we'd really like to see that

235
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:28,359
Speaker 3: made available.

236
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,360
Speaker 5: Two things that I've seen over and over again that

237
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,240
Speaker 5: many people can't believe if they're outside of the drug world,

238
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,439
Speaker 5: is that people who use drugs are often buried, community

239
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,040
Speaker 5: minded and also don't care about our health. When we're

240
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,600
Speaker 5: able to the needland s fringe program in Australia had

241
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,840
Speaker 5: saved four dollars for every dollar invested. When you extended

242
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 5: that beyond just a horizon of a few years and

243
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,839
Speaker 5: then started putting in things like opening doors to mental

244
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 5: health skin infections that return balloons to twelve dollars.

245
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 2: We also don't have a number of the things that

246
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 2: other countries have created, for example, overdose prevention centers or

247
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,959
Speaker 2: supervised drug use spaces.

248
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,199
Speaker 3: We created a.

249
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,040
Speaker 2: Proposal for one in conjunction with a number of the

250
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 2: key players in Auckland and inner city Auckland. We'd really

251
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,439
Speaker 2: like to see one at least tried in New Zealand,

252
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,880
Speaker 2: particularly that will serve a population who regular users of

253
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,239
Speaker 2: drugs and don't have anywhere else to be to safely

254
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 2: take the drug. If you supervise people, the evidence shows

255
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 2: it is incredibly effective at preventing fatalities, and it also

256
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,880
Speaker 2: has a positive effect on fatalities on the neighboring area,

257
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,160
Speaker 2: and it has a general uplift in those people's health

258
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,280
Speaker 2: impact as well.

259
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,440
Speaker 1: Tell me about that. So is it a designated space

260
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,239
Speaker 1: for regular drug users to take drugs but they're supervised.

261
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

262
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 2: So there's a famous one in our backyard, Sydney Uniting Church.

263
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,920
Speaker 2: Melbourne's got one that are all over Canada these days

264
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,480
Speaker 2: and a number of other place and there's tons of evidence.

265
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,240
Speaker 2: I've been around for a very long time at this point,

266
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,280
Speaker 2: so the fact we don't have one is political, historical

267
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 2: anomaly and a bit of a pain really. So the

268
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 2: spaces where the people who might otherwise be at risk

269
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,680
Speaker 2: of overdose can come and take their drug, somebody like

270
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 2: a nurse or indeed in some a doctor supervises their

271
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 2: consumption and then they're able to administer CPR and a

272
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 2: lockzone whatever is needed if the person overdoses. They're very

273
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 2: effective at preventing death, which is the key thing. And

274
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 2: you can imagine coming into a service like that might

275
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 2: increase your expectation for your health and wellbeing, encourage you

276
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 2: to have conversations with people and have a positive effect

277
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 2: over above staying alive.

278
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,520
Speaker 3: Which is one of the goals of harm reduction. Responses

279
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 3: like that.

280
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 1: You can see why it's controversial though, Hey, I mean,

281
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,520
Speaker 1: I guess it's just a hop, skip and a jump

282
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,400
Speaker 1: away from decriminalizing drugs altogether, but it seems like it

283
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,280
Speaker 1: has good evidence that it works and is at least

284
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 1: a gateway for people to get help. Hey, should we

285
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 1: be thinking about decriminalizing some drugs?

286
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, just to touch on that, Sydney's had an overdose

287
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,040
Speaker 2: center a uniting.

288
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,720
Speaker 3: Church for decades now and.

289
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,000
Speaker 2: They haven't legalized or decriminalized, so it is possible to

290
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,400
Speaker 2: do these things without controversy. They did it in response

291
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 2: to the level of fatality they were experiencing back in

292
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,360
Speaker 2: the I can't remember which decade it is, eighties or nineties,

293
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:28,880
Speaker 2: Sorry for that.

294
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 3: And yes, we do think that we need to look

295
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 3: at our drug laws.

296
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 2: Our drug laws have found a number of things from

297
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,600
Speaker 2: happening and prevent people seeking help. They prevent them having

298
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,320
Speaker 2: conversations with people, and in truth, there's things that we

299
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 2: could do on both the regulation side when we think

300
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 2: about lower harm substances, for example, or putting people on

301
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,840
Speaker 2: prescription medication instead. But in terms of law reform, we

302
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 2: badly need to look at law reform and criminalizing people

303
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,000
Speaker 2: certainly help and it has no evidence of working to

304
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,639
Speaker 2: discourage drug use or is a prevention against addiction or

305
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,919
Speaker 2: anything of the sort. In fact, it's easier and New

306
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,200
Speaker 2: Zealand sadly to land yourself in prison than it is

307
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 2: to get help because of the long waiting lists to

308
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 2: get help. So yeah, we're a fan of shifting our

309
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,480
Speaker 2: resource and attention back in the direction of help and

310
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:23,200
Speaker 2: harm reduction.

311
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 1: And finally, I guess we've touched on this a little bit.

312
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 1: What can the government do to protect us from experiencing

313
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 1: something like an opioid epidemic like that in the US

314
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 1: and what we're seeing emerge in Europe.

315
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,800
Speaker 3: Okay, I think there's a number of protective things I

316
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,000
Speaker 3: could do to prevent the.

317
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,960
Speaker 2: Fatalities or other really negative impacts occurring. If we actually

318
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,040
Speaker 2: want to prevent the drugs from arriving, we need to

319
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,160
Speaker 2: look at changing our drug laws and having some sort

320
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 2: of regulated approach to substances rather than just ban and police.

321
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 2: But there's a number of things we could do to

322
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 2: prevent mass fatalities like have occurred overseas, and we're very

323
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,120
Speaker 2: thankful for the few things that we do have here.

324
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Sarah. That's it for this episode

325
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,200
Speaker 1: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's

326
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at enzed Herald dot co

327
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,640
Speaker 1: dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles

328
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 1: with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to

329
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,880
Speaker 1: the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

330
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,560
Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.