1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Uber's in the Supreme Court this week fighting a twenty 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: twenty two ruling. This ruling classified four drivers as employees. 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: The company reckons drivers have too much freedom to be 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: treated as employees and should not receive leave and key 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: we SAVI contributions, among other things. Jane Tips Trainee is 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: The Herald's Wellington Business editor and is with us tonight, Hi, Jane. 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: Evening Ryan. 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: So the unions presented their evidence this morning. What do 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: they argue, Yeah, that's right. 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 2: The unions say that these drivers definitely are employees. They 11 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 2: say that the level of control that Uber has over 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: the way they go about making their income is so restrictive. 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: They call it sort of relentless and intensive. They say 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 2: it's so intense that there is no way that these 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: drivers are in fact contractors. So, you know, the lawyers 16 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: for the unions ran through a number of things. They 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: sort of picked apart the contracts that drivers you know, 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 2: sign with Uber, saying that the drivers have basically no 19 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: power in these. So these contracts are non negotiable and 20 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: Uber can change the terms and conditions as it wishes, 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 2: and the drivers kind of have no choice but to 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: agree to these. 23 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they basically say they had no choice but 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: to accept when Uber cut their fares. 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: That's right. So one of the examples that the lawyer 26 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: used was dating back a few years now, but he said, 27 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: you know that Uber changed the fares so that the 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: drivers receive less income and also changed the way that 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: the fares were calculated, and they just had to sort 30 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: of suck it up and deal with it. So one 31 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: of the things that's been debated in court is the 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: level of control that Uber has. Another thing that's been 33 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: debated is just how related Uber is to the business. 34 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: So Uber makes the case. It says, well, actually, we're 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: not there involved. We just provide the platform and the 36 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: real agreement is between the driver and the passenger. But 37 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 2: the unions say that's not right. Uber plays a big 38 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: role because Uber sets the fair, then Uber collects the 39 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: fair and then you know, gives the driver their cut 40 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: from there. And Uber controls things like the sorts of 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: information it gives the drivers. It penalizes the drivers if 42 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: they don't get good ratings. The unions went so fast 43 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 2: to say that Uber actually, you know, penalizes the drivers 44 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: if they do something wrong when they're not even driving. 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 2: So the unions, the judges just sitting in court for 46 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: a bit of the time. The judges seem quite receptive 47 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: to the union's argument. But you know, Uber also said, well, 48 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 2: our drivers want this, Like they've surveyed the drivers. They 49 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: love the flexibility they can apparently apparently they love the 50 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: flexibility they can choose when they work. And you know, 51 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: Uber says they agree to this contract, no one forces 52 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: them to sign it. So it's a tough call. 53 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, what has Uber's defense been saying. 54 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 2: Well, basically that the flexibility is such that you can't 55 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: possibly call the driver's employees. Now, Uber has been fighting 56 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: this battle all around the world, and it says that 57 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: the sort of contractor model is, I mean, it's central 58 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: to the way it operates. So the fact it's taken 59 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: it to the Supreme Court, you know, shows how significant 60 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: this is for Uber. A thing Ryan that's happening here 61 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: in the background is that the government is actually in 62 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: the process of changing the law. So it's a bit 63 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: more prescriptive on you know, what exactly constitutes being a 64 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: contractor versus an employee. So the effect of this case 65 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: could be significant for other people in the gig economy, 66 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: but perhaps the salience of it might not be as 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: great because the government is actually changing the law to 68 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: provide some clarity in the. 69 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: Space fascinating case. We'll keep watching that it's still going. 70 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: Is it presumably in the Supreme Court there, Jannae. 71 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: I think it wrapped up today. It was set down 72 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: for two days, so I guess it'll take the judges 73 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: some time to deliberate. But it'll be interesting to see 74 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: whether the outcome is announced before the law has changed 75 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: or not. So it's quite a bit there for the 76 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: lawyers to digest. 77 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: I think absolutely, and one might sort of null and 78 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: void the other anyway, Jenny, appreciate your time. Jenne to 79 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: Traineye and the New Zealand Herald, Wellington Business Editor. 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