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Speaker 1: Kiyota.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. More than

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Speaker 2: thirty six thousand Nurses Organization members nationwide went on strike

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Speaker 2: yesterday and they will walk off the job again tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: Health New Zealand says the action could disrupt treatment services

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Speaker 2: and care over the entire week, especially for patients with

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Speaker 2: non urgent needs. It's while the Health Minister, Simeon Brown

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Speaker 2: has criticized the strikes, saying they'll disrupt more than thirteen

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Speaker 2: thousand surgeries and appointments, all this after a year of

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Speaker 2: deadlocked negotiations between the union and Health end Z. Today,

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Speaker 2: on the Front Page, union delegate and healthcare assistant at

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Speaker 2: christ Church Hospital, our deech joins us to tell us

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Speaker 2: what it's like on the ground and at the picket line. So,

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Speaker 2: first off, ou tell me why have nurses decided to

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Speaker 2: go on strike?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so nurses, midwives and HCAs that are insident members

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Speaker 3: are striking essentially because our health system has completely overwhelmed

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Speaker 3: staffing levels, an atrocious state and short staffing is yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's chronic. It's been ongoing for quite some time and

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Speaker 3: We've just had enough of it. We're tired Christish Hospital

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Speaker 3: where our work over the weekend has been in code black.

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Speaker 3: The hospital is bursting at the seams and wards are

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Speaker 3: working chronically understaffed, day in, day out, and people have

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Speaker 3: had enough. I'm on the bargaining team with insident. I

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Speaker 3: know we've been in bargaining now for since September last year,

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Speaker 3: so roughly a year. And if that's order have failed

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Speaker 3: to address any of our key claims.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this isn't the first time we've spoken about

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Speaker 2: understaffing issues. Why hasn't been anything been done?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 4: I think you know, well, I guess the main reason

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Speaker 4: is funding.

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Speaker 3: You know, we have we have a government that's looking

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Speaker 3: at you know that is underfunded health. It's been an

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Speaker 3: ongoing issue for quite some time from successive governments. This

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Speaker 3: government is interested in in you know, sterity measures and

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Speaker 3: cuts and that have impacted the front.

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Speaker 4: Line and health. And it's it's all around budgets.

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Speaker 3: It's all around sort of how much to spend, and

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Speaker 3: so it's not addressing what is fundamental, which is having

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Speaker 3: enough staff to give the care that we want to give.

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Speaker 2: Health New Zealand says that the shift below target or

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Speaker 2: the SBT data is a moment in time measure and

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Speaker 2: not a reliable indicator of understaffing. Now, first off, can

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Speaker 2: you ex explained to me what that data shows and

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Speaker 2: how do you respond to that? Reasoning from health en

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Speaker 2: Z I.

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Speaker 3: Mean c CDM or care capacity demand management as a

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Speaker 3: tool through trenk care that measures the acuity of patients

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Speaker 3: and determines the number of staff that are needed on

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Speaker 3: any particular shift. The nursing stuff input into that data

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Speaker 3: ongoing throughout the shift, so it's not like a once office.

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Speaker 3: It's a continuous process and that that is calculated and

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Speaker 3: measures through f FDA calculations how many staff were short.

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Speaker 3: You know, previously the up until their hiring freeze, FDA

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Speaker 3: calculations have provided uplifts and staffing in many many areas

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Speaker 3: because of the of the reason that.

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Speaker 4: It's shown that we're understaffed.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, being cynical, you could say that, you know,

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Speaker 3: one of the reasons is because it's that they wanted

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Speaker 3: to get rid of CCDM and trend care or to

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Speaker 3: sort of modify it is because it's it's showing the

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Speaker 3: gaps that exist and that that doesn't measure up to

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Speaker 3: the budget they've allowed.

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Speaker 2: So Health New Zealand is also accusing nurses of putting

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Speaker 2: politics ahead of patients. How does the union respond to

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Speaker 2: this kind of criticism.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's it's it's political and as much

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Speaker 3: as it's about you know, a public health system and

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Speaker 3: the need for a good public health system. And it's

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Speaker 3: that have hit in the government who have become overly

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Speaker 3: and politically involved in this in this dispute, they're the

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Speaker 3: ones that have essentially changed it up and had Judith

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Speaker 3: Collins interfere with the Public Services Minister.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: So I guess you could say you could argue that

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Speaker 3: that they've made it political in their approach.

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Speaker 2: It's not all about money, though, is it. I mean

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Speaker 2: that chronic understaffing. How do you how do we address that?

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Speaker 2: Do you need a gar and tea I guess from

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Speaker 2: Health New Zealand to say, well, we promise to hire

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Speaker 2: x amount by the end of the year or by

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Speaker 2: year's time or something. I mean, how do we get

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Speaker 2: around that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean in terms of if you're talking about wages,

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Speaker 3: it's you know, obviously the cost of living is impacting

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Speaker 3: on our members and you know, we want to we

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Speaker 3: want to wage increase that keeps up with and addresses inflation.

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Speaker 4: You know, won't being off for so far as essentially

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Speaker 4: a pay cut.

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Speaker 3: But in terms of like for safe staffing, we need

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Speaker 3: much more money put into the public health system and

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Speaker 3: we need order to commit to continuing the CCDM trend here.

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Speaker 3: And also we have a plane on bargaining around culturally

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Speaker 3: appropriate ratios that would be basically a safety net below

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Speaker 3: the care capacity demand management process, so that we would

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Speaker 3: have a net that would ensure that a certain number

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Speaker 3: of health messes and HCAs are there to provide the

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Speaker 3: care that we want to give and the care that

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Speaker 3: advice for a good you know person outcome.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So those processes that you mentioned that kind of mathematically

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Speaker 2: we figures out how many nurses should be on a

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Speaker 2: shift or something like that. I mean, on any given

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Speaker 2: day at the moment, can you give me an example

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Speaker 2: of how that isn't working out well?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I can give you just one an incdotal

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Speaker 3: example of like where I worked that, you know, especially

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Speaker 3: on night shift, Like night shifts have been chronically short

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Speaker 3: staff for some time and and over this this you

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Speaker 3: know winter period. I mean, it's not really the winter

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Speaker 3: period because the the the pressures on that house system

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Speaker 3: of we've seen these numbers even before winter hit, but

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Speaker 3: over winter, you know, the staffing has become dire.

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Speaker 4: Like you know, we're meant to be.

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Speaker 3: Staffed to to five r ns and two h c's

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Speaker 3: on night shift, and regularly one of the is redeployed,

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Speaker 3: so we are four our ends on instead of five,

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Speaker 3: and after a certain time there's no h gas on

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Speaker 3: the floor. So you know, like that's that's just one area,

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Speaker 3: and that's that's across the board. Like we're we're staffing

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Speaker 3: and redeployed to try and fill the gaps.

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Speaker 4: But when there's not enough staff, everywhere gets short.

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Speaker 2: What are some ongoing challenges that nurses are facing that

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Speaker 2: impact I guess retention.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess a remuneration package that that meets the

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Speaker 3: cost of living and that that makes it easier, especially

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Speaker 3: for our members that are you know, single mothers or

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Speaker 3: single fathers, and that the struggling at the moment on

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Speaker 3: a sole income.

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Speaker 4: You know, so wages essential to keeping people here. But

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Speaker 4: also when.

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Speaker 3: You're in an environment where day in day out, you're

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Speaker 3: you're becoming anxious and fearful of going to it because

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Speaker 3: of the pressures and you're knowing how understaffed it is

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Speaker 3: and how busy it is, people burn out and people

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Speaker 3: sort of like want to move away from that obviously,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, when when they see conditions and

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Speaker 3: wages in Australia to be a lot better than they're

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Speaker 3: going to want to move to that. So it's something

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Speaker 3: and they're interest for I guess. But yeah, like we

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Speaker 3: don't want to see that. We want to see, you know,

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Speaker 3: a well funded, functioning public health system that retains our staff.

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Speaker 3: I mean, another aspect of the pressures that people are

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Speaker 3: under when we are short staffed is the culture that

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Speaker 3: develops and it becomes very cutthroat and it's something that

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Speaker 3: we need to address.

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Speaker 4: So but yeah, I guess.

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Speaker 3: Also you have to look at the fact that our

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Speaker 3: hospitals are overwhelmed because patients are becoming more acutely unwell.

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Speaker 3: We have an aging population. Successive governments have failed to

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Speaker 3: address that. I mean, the social determinants of health, whether

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Speaker 3: it's housing, whether it's poverty, whether it's homelessness, those sorts

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Speaker 3: of things. If we had a if we had a

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Speaker 3: well functioning primary health system, we'd be keeping people well

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Speaker 3: and longer and keeping them.

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Speaker 4: Out of hospitals.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the result of our hospital has been overwhelmed

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Speaker 3: as the result of brought me healthcare failing.

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Speaker 1: We're hair not only for ourselves, but we hare for

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Speaker 1: our patients as well, because they deserve better care than

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Speaker 1: what we're able to provide in these conditions. And so

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Speaker 1: we've been pretty clear with our message. We need better staffing,

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Speaker 1: we want nursing ratios, and we want fear pay and

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Speaker 1: so far the government hasn't delivered on any of that.

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Speaker 1: So we've had to take this pretty historic action of

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Speaker 1: two day strikes, and Samian Brown has been misrepresenting the

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Speaker 1: truth and the reality. Up on his window today he's

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Speaker 1: got a sign saying that our strike is delaying thousands

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Speaker 1: of surgeries. I think he's got thirteen hundred surgeries. But

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Speaker 1: what he's not saying is the reason there's so many backlogs,

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Speaker 1: just because the government has failed to deliver on those outcomes.

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Speaker 2: I saw that Health Minister Simeon Brown pointed out that

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Speaker 2: the average salary for a registered nurse is now over

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Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a year, including

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Speaker 2: overtime and allowances.

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Speaker 4: Is this correct?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 3: I would say to that that it's actually deliberate disinformation

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Speaker 3: because in order for your average nurse to earn that much,

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Speaker 3: that have to be working, that have to be a

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Speaker 3: senior nurse to start with, that have to be working,

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Speaker 3: you know, every every shift that earns a penalty, like

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Speaker 3: weekends and night shift, that kind of thing, and it's

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Speaker 3: that's that's just you know, there's only a very very

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Speaker 3: small number of members that would even earn that much,

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Speaker 3: So it's just deliberately you know, disinformation. I would say

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Speaker 3: that sort of is leading the public Australia. And then

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Speaker 3: when you look at you know, like the other members

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Speaker 3: of ends that you know that HCA is that don't

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Speaker 3: as much as are in so I mean what they're

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Speaker 3: in in is way less. It's only you know, in

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Speaker 3: the last round of bargaining last time that some HbAS

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Speaker 3: were brought up to the living wage and you know

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Speaker 3: there's there's the risk of HbA members falling below that again,

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Speaker 3: so you know that's that's a significant number of our

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Speaker 3: membership as well.

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Speaker 2: Do you get frustrated when you see things like that

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Speaker 2: because you know, the average New Zealander who doesn't really

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Speaker 2: know anything or doesn't have a nurse in their life

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Speaker 2: say sees, ah, well, they must be doing it right,

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Speaker 2: because the average wages over you know, there's six figures

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Speaker 2: or they see something like, oh, graduates are getting you know,

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Speaker 2: seventy odd thousand dollars a year straight off the bat,

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Speaker 2: Like it must be frustrating that those figures aren't laid

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Speaker 2: out like that, Like, no, not everyone is going to

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Speaker 2: be getting those overnight shifts or weekend shift or Sunday shifts.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is.

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Speaker 3: It is very frustrating, and I mean it's a deliberate

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Speaker 3: take to you know, to put out that spin.

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Speaker 4: I mean, this scivement's very good at it.

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Speaker 3: You know that, like I said, it's a very small

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Speaker 3: number that would get anywhere near in that amount.

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Speaker 4: And you know, like we.

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Speaker 3: All need, you know, we acknowledge that, like you know,

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Speaker 3: many many working people are struggling at the moment of

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Speaker 3: the cost of living crisis, and you know, we're not

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Speaker 3: the only ones that are that are needing leading wage

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Speaker 3: increases that sort of interest and inflation and things like that.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, that's it's disappointing, but it's not unexpected, I guess.

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Speaker 2: And what about the claims that nurses are putting patients

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Speaker 2: at risk by striking or going on two strikes in

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Speaker 2: one week, which is unprecedented. But I suppose one wouldn't

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Speaker 2: become a nurse if you didn't like people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, obviously we're in this job because we care.

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Speaker 3: You know, on a personal level, I get a reward

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Speaker 3: out of caring for people. It's something that you know,

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Speaker 3: like it's inherent in me. But I mean that's like

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Speaker 3: caring profession is. It's a role for people that care.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it's hard to put into words,

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Speaker 2: how you know, overworked and overwhelmed. You guys, what's it

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Speaker 2: been like on the picket lines.

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Speaker 4: The response has been great.

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Speaker 3: We've had the firefighters here again massive respect and solidarity

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Speaker 3: with the New Zealand Professional Firefighters Service, they union, they've

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Speaker 3: they've and we've had the representatives from other unions, from

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Speaker 3: the from the teachers and senior doctors, that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we've had a lot of support, a lot

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Speaker 3: of public support. Our pickets in March has been very

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Speaker 3: rowdy and very excited, but you know, members, members are

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Speaker 3: angry and they're frustrated, and you know, they want to

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Speaker 3: see our claims addressed.

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Speaker 2: And Lastly, now if you could waive a magic wand

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Speaker 2: what needs to be done tomorrow in terms of bargaining.

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Speaker 3: I think that we need to be sitting back at

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Speaker 3: the table and we need to be having to take

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Speaker 3: our claims seriously and addressing them. You know, we have

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Speaker 3: a number of claims that would go a long way

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Speaker 3: to it dressing the issues around staffing that they're they're

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Speaker 3: failing to accept an address, So you know that that

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Speaker 3: would be a first good step would be to sit

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Speaker 3: back down at the table.

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Speaker 4: We want to.

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Speaker 3: Sit at the table and negotiate, but if they're not

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Speaker 3: prepared to even contemplate and accept some of our claims,

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Speaker 3: then there's there seems to be no point because they're

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Speaker 3: not they're not coming to the parties. So you know,

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Speaker 3: that's what we need is we need them to to

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Speaker 3: accept that, you know, what we're saying is correct and

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Speaker 3: that they that they need to address our claims.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us out.

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Speaker 4: That's okay, Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at nzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

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Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also

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Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page

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Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune

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Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.