WEBVTT - Stephen Hoadley: "Korea is on the front line with China" 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.681 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB. 0:00:10.521 --> 0:00:13.961 He's a retired professor and international relations and professor Stephen 0:00:14.001 --> 0:00:14.801 Hardley joins me. 0:00:15.441 --> 0:00:18.601 Now, good afternoon, Good afternoon. Hey. 0:00:19.121 --> 0:00:22.361 I was just saying before he joined us, reading through 0:00:22.401 --> 0:00:25.201 the press release, that are sort of struggling to get 0:00:25.201 --> 0:00:27.801 excited about the trip, but can you make it exciting 0:00:27.841 --> 0:00:28.561 for us? 0:00:29.721 --> 0:00:33.921 I'll try. It is a kind of Pillian trip. Look, 0:00:34.321 --> 0:00:37.961 Luxon has been everywhere else. He's been to China, He's 0:00:38.041 --> 0:00:41.921 met Joe Biden, the President of the US. His trade 0:00:41.921 --> 0:00:46.201 minister has been to India. Winston Peters has been very active. 0:00:46.281 --> 0:00:48.841 So in a sense, this is a kind of gap filler. 0:00:49.281 --> 0:00:53.081 So you're right, it's hard to make it exciting. I'll 0:00:53.081 --> 0:00:56.681 try to just indicate one or two facts that the 0:00:57.321 --> 0:01:01.001 Koreans are the fifth best trade partner from time to time, 0:01:01.321 --> 0:01:05.761 sometimes bumping Great Britain out of number five position. The 0:01:05.801 --> 0:01:09.881 Malaysians are often in the top ten, number nine, number ten, 0:01:09.961 --> 0:01:14.001 number eleven from time to time, and both of them 0:01:14.001 --> 0:01:17.881 are very old partners. They go back to the Korean War. 0:01:18.081 --> 0:01:20.841 In the case of Korea, they go back to the 0:01:20.881 --> 0:01:25.761 Malaysian emergency and they fight against the Indonesian terrorists in 0:01:25.801 --> 0:01:30.641 the nineteen fifties when the SAS really matured in Malaysia, 0:01:31.441 --> 0:01:35.041 and so there's a lot of history there. So maybe 0:01:35.041 --> 0:01:40.281 it's a sentimental journey. Maybe we should ask it like that. 0:01:40.561 --> 0:01:43.761 Yeah, well, actually, as you said, he's been everywhere else. 0:01:44.241 --> 0:01:47.361 As I mean, it's important though, isn't it. And how 0:01:47.401 --> 0:01:49.641 much value is it to the business delegations that it's 0:01:49.721 --> 0:01:50.801 led by the prime minister. 0:01:52.161 --> 0:01:54.361 A lot of value. The prime minister opens the door, 0:01:54.401 --> 0:01:57.521 he doesn't do the negotiation. The business people themselves will 0:01:57.561 --> 0:02:02.521 actually sign the contracts, but it is important to have 0:02:02.561 --> 0:02:07.761 a prestigious person he can meet Ibrahim, the Prime Minister 0:02:07.841 --> 0:02:13.321 of Malaysia or President Yun, President of Korea, and then 0:02:13.441 --> 0:02:16.761 the officials will take over and they will nut out 0:02:17.161 --> 0:02:20.121 the deal. Now, this all is in a larger context 0:02:20.161 --> 0:02:23.961 that we're trying to diversify from China. We're not giving 0:02:24.041 --> 0:02:27.601 up on China. China is a good customer, number one customer, 0:02:28.081 --> 0:02:32.441 but everybody's a little bit edgy about China. So the 0:02:33.121 --> 0:02:37.281 current government and indeed the last government too, saying, look, 0:02:37.361 --> 0:02:40.921 diversification is the word. We need to find other trade 0:02:40.921 --> 0:02:45.121 partners to balance the China portfolio to make sure that 0:02:45.201 --> 0:02:48.641 if China turns bad, which you know, the Chinese economy 0:02:48.681 --> 0:02:51.041 is not looking very good at these days, if they 0:02:51.081 --> 0:02:56.041 stop importing our goods, we need alternatives. We need if 0:02:56.121 --> 0:03:02.121 China becomes more militarily aggressive, we need alternatives and we 0:03:02.161 --> 0:03:04.841 need our friends around the world. So this is all 0:03:05.281 --> 0:03:11.881 of filling in creating a multi purpose set of friends, partners, 0:03:12.601 --> 0:03:16.241 associates in different parts of the world to make sure 0:03:16.281 --> 0:03:18.761 that New Zealand has options. 0:03:19.081 --> 0:03:21.841 Talks about Malaysia and New Zealand being well established defense 0:03:21.881 --> 0:03:24.561 partners and what way do we work with them. I 0:03:24.601 --> 0:03:28.041 think there's a reference to transnational crime as well. 0:03:28.201 --> 0:03:33.121 Yes, that's well. I'm more in the geopolitical area. And 0:03:33.561 --> 0:03:37.161 going way back to nineteen seventy one, New Zealand had 0:03:37.201 --> 0:03:42.801 troops in Singapore and eventually Singapore became stronger than New Zealand, 0:03:42.881 --> 0:03:45.121 so they said, thank you very much, we don't need 0:03:45.161 --> 0:03:50.281 you anymore. Then New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia and Great Britain 0:03:50.641 --> 0:03:54.641 and Australia formed the Five Power Defense Agreement. So Malaysia 0:03:54.721 --> 0:03:57.241 is all part of that complex. And the New Zealand 0:03:57.241 --> 0:04:01.281 Defense Forces will exercise every year with one or more 0:04:01.361 --> 0:04:04.481 of the five of the other four partners. So that's 0:04:04.521 --> 0:04:10.761 important in the sense of maintaining a military readiness, maintaining 0:04:10.801 --> 0:04:16.121 a stabilize the Southeast Asian region, which as you know, 0:04:16.481 --> 0:04:20.761 went through the Vietnam War and the confrontation with Malaysia, 0:04:21.001 --> 0:04:24.361 with Indonesia and a number of other turbulent events. So 0:04:24.681 --> 0:04:28.361 things are looking pretty good right now. The Southeast Asia 0:04:28.401 --> 0:04:31.401 is pretty calm. Malaysia is a good trade partner, and 0:04:31.881 --> 0:04:36.761 so the Prime Minister and going there is reinforcing that 0:04:36.921 --> 0:04:40.041 and in a sense saying let's keep it up. We're 0:04:40.081 --> 0:04:44.601 doing well. Trade is good, State stability is good. We're 0:04:44.641 --> 0:04:48.961 holding our own against against the rising China in a 0:04:49.001 --> 0:04:53.241 peaceful way without provoking war. And we need we need 0:04:53.281 --> 0:04:54.041 to keep doing this. 0:04:54.521 --> 0:04:57.121 Is there anything in particularly that we'll be looking to 0:04:57.201 --> 0:04:59.961 come away from this trip with or as sort of 0:05:00.001 --> 0:05:03.481 just a reinforcement of relationships. How will we judge success? 0:05:04.481 --> 0:05:07.601 Well, that's a very good point, and I can't put 0:05:07.841 --> 0:05:13.281 any particular point forward that indicate except more of the same. 0:05:13.841 --> 0:05:16.721 Notice that the two other ministers that the flux is 0:05:16.761 --> 0:05:20.841 taking with him, not the Defense minister, not the Foreign minister, 0:05:21.041 --> 0:05:25.241 not the Trade minister, but the Economic Development Minister and 0:05:25.321 --> 0:05:28.641 another one, and so this is very much an economic focus. 0:05:28.641 --> 0:05:32.481 It's the idea to stimulate New Zealand's exports to make 0:05:32.521 --> 0:05:35.881 sure that because New Zealand runs a trade deficit with 0:05:36.001 --> 0:05:39.841 those two countries, China is about the only country New 0:05:39.921 --> 0:05:43.361 Zealand runs a trade surplus with, so we're always in debt, 0:05:43.401 --> 0:05:47.801 we're always borrowing to keep up with the deficit in trade, 0:05:48.201 --> 0:05:51.281 and so obviously this is a major effort that the 0:05:51.321 --> 0:05:55.201 government is making. So no, I can't point to any 0:05:55.241 --> 0:06:00.761 specific thing. There's digital commerce is always at the forefront. 0:06:01.241 --> 0:06:03.721 New Zealand is at the forefront of trying to get 0:06:03.761 --> 0:06:07.921 more and more countries into the digital trade arrangements. But 0:06:08.161 --> 0:06:10.001 aside from that, I think we'll have to wait and 0:06:10.041 --> 0:06:14.361 see in the press release. But I hope I haven't 0:06:14.401 --> 0:06:17.121 failed to make it extending. 0:06:17.561 --> 0:06:21.721 I was thinking of it as just a mildly cheeky question, 0:06:21.841 --> 0:06:24.281 but because the thing the other thing just as a 0:06:24.361 --> 0:06:27.681 last comment, and so it looked like my impression from 0:06:27.721 --> 0:06:32.201 reading the press release and talking about the visit to Malaysia, 0:06:32.241 --> 0:06:35.321 and it seemed to me more substance to the Malaysian trip, 0:06:35.401 --> 0:06:37.521 and at the end it says Carea is a like 0:06:37.561 --> 0:06:40.601 minded democracy that sees the challenging challenges facing the endo 0:06:40.681 --> 0:06:43.281 Pacific region in similar ways to New Zealand. I look 0:06:43.321 --> 0:06:45.961 forward to continuing my discussions. It sort of looks like 0:06:46.001 --> 0:06:47.881 he's going to Malaysia to do some stuff and then oh, 0:06:47.921 --> 0:06:50.121 by the way, let's pop into Korea and say, hi, 0:06:50.641 --> 0:06:52.321 is that fair enough or is that a that a 0:06:52.321 --> 0:06:53.201 bit too simplistic. 0:06:54.041 --> 0:06:56.441 Well, I put it the other way around. I think 0:06:56.481 --> 0:06:59.881 career is more important than Malaysia. I'm sorry about that, Ibrahim, 0:06:59.921 --> 0:07:03.241 and oh you knows people in Malaysia. But Korea is 0:07:03.521 --> 0:07:08.281 on the front line with Korea is making up with 0:07:08.521 --> 0:07:12.441 Japan at long last, and standing with the United States 0:07:12.521 --> 0:07:17.241 in balancing against China. New Zealand has a very long 0:07:17.641 --> 0:07:20.401 military relationship with China. My daughters served there as a 0:07:20.441 --> 0:07:24.521 commander in the Navy in the Armistice Commission, observing the 0:07:25.081 --> 0:07:27.961 the DMZ and making sure the North Koreans don't do 0:07:28.001 --> 0:07:32.281 anything silly. So I would say Korea is even more important, 0:07:32.321 --> 0:07:34.961 and the Korea is a better trade partner. They're they're 0:07:34.961 --> 0:07:38.921 often number five, number six in the trade list, and 0:07:39.241 --> 0:07:42.121 so I would I would say if I were choosing 0:07:42.161 --> 0:07:45.801 between one of the other. Korea comes ahead of Malaysia. 0:07:45.881 --> 0:07:47.761 Just quickly as a history list. And you mentioned about 0:07:47.761 --> 0:07:49.481 the back in the fifties with the was that the 0:07:49.481 --> 0:07:52.721 Milayan emergency where the SIS New Zealand he says a 0:07:52.761 --> 0:07:54.241 large role on that. 0:07:54.241 --> 0:07:56.521 That's correct, you know that, well, that was partly the 0:07:56.521 --> 0:08:01.841 emergency was partly the Indonesian confrontation or Confrontasi as they 0:08:01.881 --> 0:08:09.401 called it. The Indonesians sent militia into Sabah, which is 0:08:09.761 --> 0:08:12.681 part of Malaysia, and the Malaysians called for help. New 0:08:12.801 --> 0:08:15.361 Zealand was there, The SAS was there. They moved out 0:08:15.401 --> 0:08:19.601 of Singapore, went into the jungle and that's where the 0:08:19.681 --> 0:08:25.081 SAS then what one its medals and really developed its 0:08:25.081 --> 0:08:29.801 strength as a jungle combatant to fight against the Indonesians. 0:08:30.001 --> 0:08:32.121 But yeah, there was a little bit. The British did 0:08:32.241 --> 0:08:35.441 most of the heavy lifting with the Malaysian emergency against 0:08:35.481 --> 0:08:39.921 the communist terrorists that is in Malaya. A proper I 0:08:40.001 --> 0:08:43.321 just thought it was all working together for a common goal, 0:08:43.361 --> 0:08:46.881 which is stability, democracy and eventually trade. 0:08:47.321 --> 0:08:49.601 I asked that question of slightly personal interests because my 0:08:49.681 --> 0:08:54.121 dad was an interpreter for the British essays and had 0:08:54.281 --> 0:08:57.641 with nonmilitary training and these we've been reading his diaries 0:08:58.081 --> 0:09:01.521 about his adventures which involved some class ships, so I 0:09:01.521 --> 0:09:03.721 just thought I quickly quizy on that. Hey, Stephen, I 0:09:03.801 --> 0:09:04.721 really appreciate your time. 0:09:04.761 --> 0:09:07.801 This no, okay, you most welcome you anytime. 0:09:08.561 --> 0:09:11.321 For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News 0:09:11.361 --> 0:09:15.041 Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast 0:09:15.081 --> 0:09:16.041 on iHeartRadio.