Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2: He's a retired professor and international relations and professor Stephen
Speaker 2: Hardley joins me.
Speaker 3: Now, good afternoon, Good afternoon. Hey.
Speaker 2: I was just saying before he joined us, reading through
Speaker 2: the press release, that are sort of struggling to get
Speaker 2: excited about the trip, but can you make it exciting
Speaker 2: for us?
Speaker 3: I'll try. It is a kind of Pillian trip. Look,
Speaker 3: Luxon has been everywhere else. He's been to China, He's
Speaker 3: met Joe Biden, the President of the US. His trade
Speaker 3: minister has been to India. Winston Peters has been very active.
Speaker 3: So in a sense, this is a kind of gap filler.
Speaker 3: So you're right, it's hard to make it exciting. I'll
Speaker 3: try to just indicate one or two facts that the
Speaker 3: Koreans are the fifth best trade partner from time to time,
Speaker 3: sometimes bumping Great Britain out of number five position. The
Speaker 3: Malaysians are often in the top ten, number nine, number ten,
Speaker 3: number eleven from time to time, and both of them
Speaker 3: are very old partners. They go back to the Korean War.
Speaker 3: In the case of Korea, they go back to the
Speaker 3: Malaysian emergency and they fight against the Indonesian terrorists in
Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties when the SAS really matured in Malaysia,
Speaker 3: and so there's a lot of history there. So maybe
Speaker 3: it's a sentimental journey. Maybe we should ask it like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, actually, as you said, he's been everywhere else.
Speaker 2: As I mean, it's important though, isn't it. And how
Speaker 2: much value is it to the business delegations that it's
Speaker 2: led by the prime minister.
Speaker 3: A lot of value. The prime minister opens the door,
Speaker 3: he doesn't do the negotiation. The business people themselves will
Speaker 3: actually sign the contracts, but it is important to have
Speaker 3: a prestigious person he can meet Ibrahim, the Prime Minister
Speaker 3: of Malaysia or President Yun, President of Korea, and then
Speaker 3: the officials will take over and they will nut out
Speaker 3: the deal. Now, this all is in a larger context
Speaker 3: that we're trying to diversify from China. We're not giving
Speaker 3: up on China. China is a good customer, number one customer,
Speaker 3: but everybody's a little bit edgy about China. So the
Speaker 3: current government and indeed the last government too, saying, look,
Speaker 3: diversification is the word. We need to find other trade
Speaker 3: partners to balance the China portfolio to make sure that
Speaker 3: if China turns bad, which you know, the Chinese economy
Speaker 3: is not looking very good at these days, if they
Speaker 3: stop importing our goods, we need alternatives. We need if
Speaker 3: China becomes more militarily aggressive, we need alternatives and we
Speaker 3: need our friends around the world. So this is all
Speaker 3: of filling in creating a multi purpose set of friends, partners,
Speaker 3: associates in different parts of the world to make sure
Speaker 3: that New Zealand has options.
Speaker 2: Talks about Malaysia and New Zealand being well established defense
Speaker 2: partners and what way do we work with them. I
Speaker 2: think there's a reference to transnational crime as well.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's well. I'm more in the geopolitical area. And
Speaker 3: going way back to nineteen seventy one, New Zealand had
Speaker 3: troops in Singapore and eventually Singapore became stronger than New Zealand,
Speaker 3: so they said, thank you very much, we don't need
Speaker 3: you anymore. Then New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia and Great Britain
Speaker 3: and Australia formed the Five Power Defense Agreement. So Malaysia
Speaker 3: is all part of that complex. And the New Zealand
Speaker 3: Defense Forces will exercise every year with one or more
Speaker 3: of the five of the other four partners. So that's
Speaker 3: important in the sense of maintaining a military readiness, maintaining
Speaker 3: a stabilize the Southeast Asian region, which as you know,
Speaker 3: went through the Vietnam War and the confrontation with Malaysia,
Speaker 3: with Indonesia and a number of other turbulent events. So
Speaker 3: things are looking pretty good right now. The Southeast Asia
Speaker 3: is pretty calm. Malaysia is a good trade partner, and
Speaker 3: so the Prime Minister and going there is reinforcing that
Speaker 3: and in a sense saying let's keep it up. We're
Speaker 3: doing well. Trade is good, State stability is good. We're
Speaker 3: holding our own against against the rising China in a
Speaker 3: peaceful way without provoking war. And we need we need
Speaker 3: to keep doing this.
Speaker 2: Is there anything in particularly that we'll be looking to
Speaker 2: come away from this trip with or as sort of
Speaker 2: just a reinforcement of relationships. How will we judge success?
Speaker 3: Well, that's a very good point, and I can't put
Speaker 3: any particular point forward that indicate except more of the same.
Speaker 3: Notice that the two other ministers that the flux is
Speaker 3: taking with him, not the Defense minister, not the Foreign minister,
Speaker 3: not the Trade minister, but the Economic Development Minister and
Speaker 3: another one, and so this is very much an economic focus.
Speaker 3: It's the idea to stimulate New Zealand's exports to make
Speaker 3: sure that because New Zealand runs a trade deficit with
Speaker 3: those two countries, China is about the only country New
Speaker 3: Zealand runs a trade surplus with, so we're always in debt,
Speaker 3: we're always borrowing to keep up with the deficit in trade,
Speaker 3: and so obviously this is a major effort that the
Speaker 3: government is making. So no, I can't point to any
Speaker 3: specific thing. There's digital commerce is always at the forefront.
Speaker 3: New Zealand is at the forefront of trying to get
Speaker 3: more and more countries into the digital trade arrangements. But
Speaker 3: aside from that, I think we'll have to wait and
Speaker 3: see in the press release. But I hope I haven't
Speaker 3: failed to make it extending.
Speaker 2: I was thinking of it as just a mildly cheeky question,
Speaker 2: but because the thing the other thing just as a
Speaker 2: last comment, and so it looked like my impression from
Speaker 2: reading the press release and talking about the visit to Malaysia,
Speaker 2: and it seemed to me more substance to the Malaysian trip,
Speaker 2: and at the end it says Carea is a like
Speaker 2: minded democracy that sees the challenging challenges facing the endo
Speaker 2: Pacific region in similar ways to New Zealand. I look
Speaker 2: forward to continuing my discussions. It sort of looks like
Speaker 2: he's going to Malaysia to do some stuff and then oh,
Speaker 2: by the way, let's pop into Korea and say, hi,
Speaker 2: is that fair enough or is that a that a
Speaker 2: bit too simplistic.
Speaker 3: Well, I put it the other way around. I think
Speaker 3: career is more important than Malaysia. I'm sorry about that, Ibrahim,
Speaker 3: and oh you knows people in Malaysia. But Korea is
Speaker 3: on the front line with Korea is making up with
Speaker 3: Japan at long last, and standing with the United States
Speaker 3: in balancing against China. New Zealand has a very long
Speaker 3: military relationship with China. My daughters served there as a
Speaker 3: commander in the Navy in the Armistice Commission, observing the
Speaker 3: the DMZ and making sure the North Koreans don't do
Speaker 3: anything silly. So I would say Korea is even more important,
Speaker 3: and the Korea is a better trade partner. They're they're
Speaker 3: often number five, number six in the trade list, and
Speaker 3: so I would I would say if I were choosing
Speaker 3: between one of the other. Korea comes ahead of Malaysia.
Speaker 2: Just quickly as a history list. And you mentioned about
Speaker 2: the back in the fifties with the was that the
Speaker 2: Milayan emergency where the SIS New Zealand he says a
Speaker 2: large role on that.
Speaker 3: That's correct, you know that, well, that was partly the
Speaker 3: emergency was partly the Indonesian confrontation or Confrontasi as they
Speaker 3: called it. The Indonesians sent militia into Sabah, which is
Speaker 3: part of Malaysia, and the Malaysians called for help. New
Speaker 3: Zealand was there, The SAS was there. They moved out
Speaker 3: of Singapore, went into the jungle and that's where the
Speaker 3: SAS then what one its medals and really developed its
Speaker 3: strength as a jungle combatant to fight against the Indonesians.
Speaker 3: But yeah, there was a little bit. The British did
Speaker 3: most of the heavy lifting with the Malaysian emergency against
Speaker 3: the communist terrorists that is in Malaya. A proper I
Speaker 3: just thought it was all working together for a common goal,
Speaker 3: which is stability, democracy and eventually trade.
Speaker 2: I asked that question of slightly personal interests because my
Speaker 2: dad was an interpreter for the British essays and had
Speaker 2: with nonmilitary training and these we've been reading his diaries
Speaker 2: about his adventures which involved some class ships, so I
Speaker 2: just thought I quickly quizy on that. Hey, Stephen, I
Speaker 2: really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3: This no, okay, you most welcome you anytime.
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