WEBVTT - What Australia's new hate laws mean for NZ's free speech debate 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:05.960 Kioudra. 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.200 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:17.440 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Australia's Parliament 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.640 has been called back two weeks early to push through 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.360 new gun and hate speech legislation in the wake of 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.840 the Bondiet terror attack. The recommendations are reminiscent of those 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.120 made by the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the March 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:37.040 fifteen terror attack in Christchurch. Since twenty twenty one, successive 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.879 governments have begun, paused, then stopped altogether all policy and 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:46.560 legislative work on hate speech. So where do our laws 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.400 sit today? Are they good enough? Or should we follow 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:54.680 Australia's lead and finally tackle this issue once and for rule. 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:58.560 Today on the Front Page, Race Relations Commissioner Doctor Melissa 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.480 Darby is with us to talk about how to tackle 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:09.200 this growing issue. First off, what do New Zealand's hate 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.080 speech laws look like at the moment. 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.200 At the moment, under the Human Rights Act, there is 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:20.600 protection for particular groups based on particular characteristics. There have 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.839 been some questions as to whether or not those laws 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.479 cover groups sufficiently. I will make the point that this 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.240 is certainly outside my sort of scope. As Race Relations Commissioner, 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.399 I am here obviously to make sure that the rights 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.440 of various groups are upheld. But some of the more 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.680 technical analysis of these laws, where the threshold might sit, 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.240 how they sit alongside things like freedom of expression, of course, 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:51.840 which is another human right, requires them quite serious legal analysis, 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:56.360 so that I guess we're balancing all of the considerations 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:57.600 in the mix, and. 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.440 Do you think that they are good enough a moment? 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.080 Do they cover enough groups? 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.640 I think there would be room for expanding the laws. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.480 There's certainly been that has been what some committees or 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.359 commissions have recommended. The Royal Commission of Inquiry, for example, 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.920 into their christ Church musk attacks, recommended changes to our 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:24.559 hate speech legislation. Whether that happens or not is secondary 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.679 to the fact that we should be addressing. 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:28.800 These issues in New Zealand. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:31.800 A lot of groups that I've engaged with in my 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:33.840 time in this role. I've been in the role of 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.040 Race Relations Commissioner for about a year now, engaged with 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.560 groups up and down the country. A number of groups 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.600 are very concerned about hateful rhetoric, and all groups want 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.920 better education about the impacts of harmful speech. Some groups 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.880 absolutely want legislative change some darings. And it's important to 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.400 note too that even within communities there are a variety 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:56.040 of views. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.720 And in terms of those views, what do most groups 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.960 want first straight off the bat, I. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:07.720 Think groups want better education and better public awareness about 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:13.320 the impact of harmful and hateful rhetoric on groups. I 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.800 think that there's an opportunity for us to provide spaces 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.320 and places for us to mix and mingle with people 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.520 who are different from us. Communities up and down the 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.560 country have told me that that's what they want to do. 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.880 They want to get to know their neighbors, They want 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:30.880 to mix and mingle with people who are from different backgrounds. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.160 They don't want to live in a divided New Zealand. Rather, 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:37.720 they want to live in a united country. And so 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.320 I think there's an opportunity for us to provide better 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.200 spaces for that to occur, to remove the fear and 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.400 mistrust and suspicion that often occurs when there's. 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:48.200 A bit of a vacuum. 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.360 I think that communities, actually a lot of them have 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.640 said to me, if not all that better education in 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.840 this space about the impact of hateful rhetoric would hopefully 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:04.160 go some way to perhaps others recognizing the impact of 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.680 some of their actions, but by the same token, us 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.120 providing opportunities for us to connect together with people who 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.520 are different to us shows us that we are far 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.240 more alike than we are different, and perhaps remove some 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.839 of that fear that can often fill a gap and 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:20.760 loewer of anything else. 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.640 Well, when it comes to hate speech laws and those reforms, 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.880 it's always a hot topic, and we've seen time and 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.000 time again and successive governments of all different colors and 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:33.560 stripes pick this up, put it down, cancel it, rejig things. 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.040 I mean, is it just because it is. 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:41.560 So wide reaching and there's that tension between free speech 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:42.960 versus hate speech. 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:48.680 I think the Australian example has shown us how complex 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.279 these issues are. I think we know that, but I 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.240 do think that we've failed to recognize the degree of 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.880 complexity and nuance in these issues. 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.200 I'm talking in your general terms here. 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.440 But I think a lot of people see, if you 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.120 are for free speech, you must therefore not have any 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.200 concern whatsoever about hate speech, or if you want changes 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.479 to our hate speech threshold and laws, then you must 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.400 want to censor everybody. And I think that's a very 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.960 binary way of looking at a very complex issue. We 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.480 can understand and appreciate and want to protect the fundamental 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.919 human right of freedom of expression and I guess the 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.080 freedom that affords all of us in a country like 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:35.200 New Zealand, while at the same time being very concerned 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.200 about some of the increasingly harmful and hateful rhetoric that 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:39.719 we're seeing directed at communities. 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.440 I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:44.800 I think we need to come together as a country 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:49.200 and discuss or hold a constructive, mature, facilitated conversations about 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.840 how we actually address some of these issues so that 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.960 we can balance as best we can those two things 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.560 that are often pitted as competing with one another, and 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:02.240 in some senses they do not necessarily, so I accept 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.560 completely that the threshold for things like incitement needs to 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.080 be high in order to protect freedom of speech. 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:13.560 But that doesn't mean that we should accept as a 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.320 country some of the harmful rhetoric that's directed at communities 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.160 in many instances, and certainly what I've been doing in 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:21.880 my time as Race Relations Commissioner is calling that out 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:22.880 and doing. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.760 My best to create greater public awareness about the impact 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.440 of some of this rhetoric that we're seeing on different communities. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:30.560 In New Zealand. 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:32.840 Yeah, because the law has always taken that kind of 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:37.240 principled approach right, taking context into account to determine where 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.880 that freedom of expression turns into hate speech. But how 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:46.280 difficult is it to differentiate criticism from incitement? 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:48.080 Yeah? 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.520 Look, I will say at the outset Chelsea that this 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.480 requires probably more serious legal analysis than what I'm capable of. 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.120 But what communities have told me, and I think what 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:01.200 communities certainly understand, is that there is a difference between 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.520 criticizing an ideology, for example, or a school of thought 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:10.720 or an idea, and of course calling for harm to people. 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.520 And I think we probably need to get better about 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:18.360 understanding that differentiation in our minds. That sometimes it isn't 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.280 pleasant when we hear something that's very close to our 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.880 hearts being criticized. But we've got to come to a 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.840 place as a nation where we are okay with peaceful 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:32.880 disagreement on issues and where we don't see those who 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:37.640 disagree with us immediately as enemies. The social media online 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.680 environment doesn't help here. It pits people, I think in 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.520 very absolute terms. You know, we probably say things to 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.760 one another online that we wouldn't say to each other 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:51.120 face to face, I would hope, and it puts it 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.320 sort of puts people almost in these irreconcilable US versus 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.160 them type teams, and I don't think that's helpful. Most 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:04.400 recent Essays report shows that the dangers of online extremism 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:09.360 and the polarization that some of those narratives. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:10.480 Are contributing to in our country. 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:16.240 So yeah, ultimately, I think we need to certainly differentiate 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:22.000 between criticism of a group and people versus criticism of 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:30.720 an idea, and sometimes those things can feel blarry. 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:37.680 We must channel our anger into meaningful action to ensure 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:43.160 an atrocity such as this can never happen again. And 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:48.200 that responsibility starts with me as Australia's thirty first Prime Minister. 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.200 It also belongs to each of us here in this 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:56.600 chamber as parliamentarians, and it's a task for all of 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:10.280 us as Australians told social cohesion to reject division and prejudice. 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:14.400 In terms of online radicalization. Would you see that at 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:16.200 the moment as our greatest threat? 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.240 It's certainly up there, that's for sure. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:26.120 The Essays report showed that sort of grievance narratives and 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.080 violent extremism is becoming more prevalent in New Zealand. I 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.280 want to make the point that no one group or 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:38.679 ideology stands out there are arrange young people in particular 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:43.800 are targeted online or are seen as being more susceptible 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:49.560 to these sort of narratives and extremist ideas. And vulnerable 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.760 people are as well, people who are perhaps isolated or 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.520 who have experienced particular traumas in their life. 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.160 I think we need to be. 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.080 More realistic get better at addressing some of these issues 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.800 because what the data also show and the NZD Space 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.880 report is that New Zealand the greatest risk in terms 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.160 of any terrorist attack in New Zealand is from a 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:16.160 loan individual acting as I said, alone and with an 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.680 access to an easy kind of weapon like a car 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.640 for example, which is quite frightening when we think about 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.400 how easy those things are for people to get. 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:25.880 Their hands on. 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.920 Of course, algorithms as well, social media algorithms, we all 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.720 know how they operate. They start feeding into the mix 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.480 and the whole thing kind of snowballs. Looking across at 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.120 the Tasman and what they're debating now in terms of 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.680 the hate speech laws you've mentioned. A massive lesson that 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.680 we can learn from them, obviously is seeing how complex 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:46.000 an issue like this is. 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:47.880 But what else do you think that. 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.320 We should pay close attention to when they're talking about this. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.320 Look how Human Rights Commission, via our Chief Commissioner and 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.520 via their president I think his titles of the Australian 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.400 Human Rights Commission have been in touch on this issue. 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.880 The Australian Commission reached out to us, and this has 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.960 particular relevance to myral on the Royal Commission of Inquiry 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.000 into the Chrash hitch Mosk attacks, because I believe they 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.240 will go ahead and set up the Royal Commission of 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:19.560 Inquiry into the horrific Bondai terror attack. And so we're 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:24.360 in close communication I suppose with our Australian counterparts, which 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.320 is good. It's important for us to learn from one 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.800 another on this during the course of those communications, and 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.240 what I've seen from them is their submission on these 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:34.800 on the proposed hate speech laws, which of course have 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:39.080 now been pulled I understand due to some fairly serious 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.880 opposition from a range of parties for a range of reasons. 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.080 And one of the things that the Commission Australian Commission 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:51.000 raised was looking at the threshold around incitement and exactly 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.120 where that sits. If current laws were actually being applied 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.520 in the way that they might be able to be applied, 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.360 then obviously again sits outside my wheelhouse in terms of 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.160 the serious legal analysis that that requires, because the Australian 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:12.640 President did also note the tendency I guess for unintended 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.520 consequences to come from some of these laws, the need 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:20.679 for laws to be applied evenly and consistently, and of 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:25.240 course the complexities around like you've mentioned, context mattering in 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:29.640 various instances, so it's not necessarily that something it's a 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.400 black or white kind of is zero su game type approach. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:35.880 So I think that we can learn a lot from 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.200 each other. We are certainly in constant communication at the 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.320 moment on this particular issue. We have seen in recent 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.160 times in both New Zealand and Australia increasing anti semitism 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.800 and Islamophobia, and my role is Race Relations Commissioner. I've 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:56.120 met with they have in Islamophobia envoy and yet to 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.200 meet coming up with their anti Semitism envoy. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.200 Of talking to one another a lot, so we're not 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:02.640 having to. 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.320 Reinvent the wheel, hoping we can learn from each other, 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:11.760 but also recognizing that Australia has faced particularly extreme instances 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.440 of anti Semitism and Islamophobia recently. 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:16.560 I don't want to. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.040 Ever put out there a narrative that New Zealand is 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.360 polarized and there is no hope. There is so many 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.360 incredible things that are happening in our communities in New Zealand, 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.720 and I think the recent harmony accord between Jewish and 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.520 Muslim communities in New Zealand is an example of the 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.960 willingness of a range of groups in New Zealand to 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.680 really work together to address these issues and hopefully to 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.440 prevent some of the more extremist rhetoric and behavior and 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.240 so on that we're seeing in a lot of overseas 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.120 countries coming to our shows here. 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.360 Reforms to hate speech and hate crime's laws were among 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.760 some of the recommendations from the Royal Commission of Inquiry 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:55.600 into the March. 0:13:55.400 --> 0:14:00.720 Fifteen terror attack. What if anything has changed then. 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:05.200 Look, my understanding is that nothing has changed since then. 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.920 I think if in terms of the environment, we're perhaps 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:13.880 operating in a more polarized in some cases environment, But 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.000 again I don't want that to be the only narrative 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.040 that people hear about this country. You know, there are 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:22.920 so many incredible community groups and individuals out there who are. 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.960 Doing wonderful work to you know, to come together on. 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.080 This particular issue and a range of others, of course, 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.040 And I think the irrespective and whether the legislative change 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.600 comes in terms of our hate speech laws, and that's 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.920 obviously a decision for politicians and so on. I don't 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.800 think that that means we don't address in some way 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.520 hate speech or harmful rhetoric that targets communities. And I 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.720 recognize the subjective nature of those terms, you know, through 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.080 things like education, through things like providing opportunities for us 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:57.240 to come together as a nation human rights in terms 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.040 of the one of the fundamental ideas is the the 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.840 inherent dignity of every human being. Imagine what kind of 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.200 how that calls on us to treat one another. If 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:10.320 we hear ideas like that more, and hear messages like 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:12.960 that more, How does it call on us to behave 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:17.160 ourselves if we think about the inherent dignity within ourselves. So, 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.320 in my role as commissioners, I'm doing my best to 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:21.200 get those sorts. 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.720 Of messages out there, and certainly. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.920 Have plans for things like Race Relations Day as well, 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.560 to provide a platform for us to come together as 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.400 a nation where a nation now of over two hundred 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:36.920 ethnic communities, one hundred and seventy languages, we want to 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.800 live in a united New Zealand and to prevent some 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.080 of these things that are occurring offshore from harmon communities 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.640 anymore in New Zealand than they already have. Whether there's 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.760 legislative change or not, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.000 be addressing some of these issues in other ways, and 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.760 that's what I'm attempting to do in my role, that's 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:53.240 for sure. 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.320 Oh absolutely, And of course any kind of rhetoric about 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:01.240 the how multicultural we are as the country and how 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.840 that makes us better is a good thing. But I 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.240 can't imagine that a Nazi sympathizer would you take part 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.280 in a Race Relations Day for example? 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.520 What do we do with those outer fringe groups? 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:13.040 Great question? 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.800 And I think at the moment, as I see issues, 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.600 they are currently playing out in the extremes. 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:20.960 So if we take a really big issue like immigration, 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:21.960 for example, it's a. 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:26.080 Hot topic overseas, there are people who are raising this 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:31.160 as a topic in New Zealand. I see, for example, 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.720 the role of the Human Rights Commission and certainly perhaps 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:38.400 me in particular as Race Relations Commissioner, to provide opportunities 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.760 and a platform to facilitate strengthening middle ground on these issues. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:45.560 We need to provide people with a space to address 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.520 genuine concerns, not extreme racist rhetoric that's quite simply vile, 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.720 but genuine concerns about the kind of country that we're 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:54.560 living in and the sorts of ways that we can 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.760 ensure that harmonious relations and social cohesion is protected without 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.880 of course making us all this same as one another. 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.720 That's not how we want to be either. We want 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:05.359 to be living in a country where we can be 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.480 our unique selves but still get along with our neighbors 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.400 and be prepared to sit down and have a cup 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.040 of tea with one another. That's the role that I 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.679 see the Human Rights Commission playing, And I think that, yeah, 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.800 we probably can't persuade people on the extremes of either 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.280 end of any debate, but how do we strengthen the 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.640 middle ground and provide those opportunities so that people don't see, well, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.919 the only people who are raising these issues are on 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.800 the extremes, and that to me just creates further division 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:34.880 and polarization. 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:36.800 Right, and then that would mean that those people in 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.879 the middle ground won't slowly float either way either like 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.680 we see, and that's that online radicalization, right. 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.040 Absolutely, we want to provide some opportunities for people to 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:52.399 have really constructive conversations where the message isn't that we 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.320 have to agree with it agree with one another, but 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.440 where we don't see those who disagree with us immediately 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.680 as Y and I think that's a really really important 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.119 message for us to get out there, to combat any 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.720 polarization that already exists, and of course to stop. 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.280 Making it in order to hopefully prevent making it even worse. 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:21.840 The best working definition of what hate speeches is the 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.679 one that the Germany has adopted in other European and 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.119 think of it like group defamation. So we're all part 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:32.120 of groups where Christian or Jewish or Muslim, or we're 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.840 gay or trans and if someone says something which libels 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.600 that group as a group and tries to say, aha, 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.320 you don't belong here in society. You have less inherent 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.440 dignity as a group than other people. But that hates me. 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:50.679 And in terms of those out I mean, I know 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:52.919 that the police and sas do an amazing job of 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:57.160 keeping track of people with extremist views, but it does 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.480 feel like when we talk about big change, we think 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.920 of it as very reactionary. So I'm thinking nine to eleven, 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:11.520 airports change, airport security changed, forever. You're thinking Christchurch Mosk attacks. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.160 We've got the gun By back Port, Arthur massacre, gun 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.480 By back in Australia and now the Bondi attack potentially 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.639 leading to hate speech laws and hate crime laws in Australia. 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:21.800 Do you think we should be. 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.359 Less reactionary when it comes to, you know, those big 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.320 law reforms and those big changes. 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:29.560 Yes to no. 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.760 I think it probably depends on a case by case situation. 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:34.520 I think if there's a. 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:38.000 Real gap that we can plug, if you like, in 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:42.680 response to those horrific attacks you've mentioned and lock I've 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:44.880 as I mentioned, I've been in the role of Race 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.480 Relations Commissioner for a year, but I'm working closely with 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.840 christ Church Muslim communities, indeed Muslim communities up and down 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.960 the country. But including that, so I see nearly seven 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.320 years on the ongoing impacts of the christ church, terra 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.560 attacks on a community. So if there is anything that 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.399 we can do to prevent those sorts of things happening again, 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:08.119 we've got to do it. Of Course, by the same token, 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.040 we want to make sure that the things that we 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.760 are putting in place are as well thought through as possible, 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.879 are addressing the actual issue at hand, and don't have 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.159 unintended consequences, and of course protect in the case of 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.760 hate speech laws and freedom of expression other rights in 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:26.800 the mix that we also want to make sure we 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:28.840 are recognizing and looking after. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.480 Yeah, one thing that I did notice with the Australian laws, 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.840 and sorry to keep bringing this up, but you know, 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:37.919 it is kind of a blueprint of things, like you know, 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.199 Anthony Aubernezy kind of put out a blueprint of everything 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.119 that was possible and we're slowly seeing that get taken away. 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:48.520 But one of the reactions to the initial draft law 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:51.040 was that, you know, making it illegal to be a 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.880 part of a hate group, and that saw the disbandment 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.960 of the National Nazi Network or something. I mean, I'm 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.440 not going to say their full name on the podcast, 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:03.880 but they basically sent out a newsletter saying we're going 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:05.200 to disband by this Sunday. 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:05.680 Now. 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:10.159 In one respect, yeay, But in another, those groups are 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.520 always going to continue to be there, whether you see 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.880 them or whether you don't. So is something like that 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.320 better to be seen rather than tucked away in the 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:24.000 shadows because they're gonna they're gonna pop up somewhere else, right, Yeah. 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:28.000 There's an argument that by banning things, you don't remove 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:32.520 it necessarily, you simply push it underground. And look, if 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:34.600 I can tell a quick story, I come from a 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.720 storytelling background. But if I can tell a quick story 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:41.199 about time spent in the US. I was researching the 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.720 horrific Emettel case and from the civil rights movement back 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.440 in the fifties, I spent time at a particular community 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.560 there with a man who was African American and who 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.399 worked in one of the museums. He and I were 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:58.080 walking around a very small part of Mississippi, and he said, 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:03.240 I now don't know where the sort of houses to 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:05.639 avoid are because the district that he was living in 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:09.119 had recently banned the flying of the Confederate flag. He 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.000 knew when they hung those things in the windows. Let 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:13.760 me not go down that street. I'll go down the 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:16.119 street instead. But suddenly he didn't know that, and it 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.160 stuck with me because, on the surface, like you've said, 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:21.399 we think, great, these things should be banned. 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:23.280 They are often used as symbols of hate. 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.000 But of course I don't think that by banning it 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:31.440 people necessarily changed their view. They simply for someone like him, 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:34.080 he simply didn't know how to keep himself safe or 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.119 as safe as he would like to have any more. 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.880 That's one example. Of course, there is the other example 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.000 to say, well, why should we tolerate, you know, groups 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:48.919 like your Nazi Australian group, And yeah, I think that 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:52.480 it's probably a case by case basis. Perhaps in some 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:57.200 instances banning something does send a signal and can change 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:01.240