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Speaker 1: Kioudra.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Australia's Parliament

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Speaker 2: has been called back two weeks early to push through

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Speaker 2: new gun and hate speech legislation in the wake of

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Speaker 2: the Bondiet terror attack. The recommendations are reminiscent of those

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Speaker 2: made by the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the March

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Speaker 2: fifteen terror attack in Christchurch. Since twenty twenty one, successive

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Speaker 2: governments have begun, paused, then stopped altogether all policy and

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Speaker 2: legislative work on hate speech. So where do our laws

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Speaker 2: sit today? Are they good enough? Or should we follow

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Speaker 2: Australia's lead and finally tackle this issue once and for rule.

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Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Race Relations Commissioner Doctor Melissa

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Speaker 2: Darby is with us to talk about how to tackle

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Speaker 2: this growing issue. First off, what do New Zealand's hate

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Speaker 2: speech laws look like at the moment.

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Speaker 3: At the moment, under the Human Rights Act, there is

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Speaker 3: protection for particular groups based on particular characteristics. There have

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Speaker 3: been some questions as to whether or not those laws

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Speaker 3: cover groups sufficiently. I will make the point that this

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Speaker 3: is certainly outside my sort of scope. As Race Relations Commissioner,

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Speaker 3: I am here obviously to make sure that the rights

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Speaker 3: of various groups are upheld. But some of the more

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Speaker 3: technical analysis of these laws, where the threshold might sit,

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Speaker 3: how they sit alongside things like freedom of expression, of course,

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Speaker 3: which is another human right, requires them quite serious legal analysis,

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Speaker 3: so that I guess we're balancing all of the considerations

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Speaker 3: in the mix, and.

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Speaker 4: Do you think that they are good enough a moment?

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Speaker 4: Do they cover enough groups?

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Speaker 3: I think there would be room for expanding the laws.

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Speaker 3: There's certainly been that has been what some committees or

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Speaker 3: commissions have recommended. The Royal Commission of Inquiry, for example,

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Speaker 3: into their christ Church musk attacks, recommended changes to our

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Speaker 3: hate speech legislation. Whether that happens or not is secondary

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Speaker 3: to the fact that we should be addressing.

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Speaker 1: These issues in New Zealand.

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Speaker 3: A lot of groups that I've engaged with in my

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Speaker 3: time in this role. I've been in the role of

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Speaker 3: Race Relations Commissioner for about a year now, engaged with

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Speaker 3: groups up and down the country. A number of groups

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Speaker 3: are very concerned about hateful rhetoric, and all groups want

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Speaker 3: better education about the impacts of harmful speech. Some groups

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Speaker 3: absolutely want legislative change some darings. And it's important to

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Speaker 3: note too that even within communities there are a variety

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Speaker 3: of views.

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Speaker 4: And in terms of those views, what do most groups

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Speaker 4: want first straight off the bat, I.

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Speaker 3: Think groups want better education and better public awareness about

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Speaker 3: the impact of harmful and hateful rhetoric on groups. I

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Speaker 3: think that there's an opportunity for us to provide spaces

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Speaker 3: and places for us to mix and mingle with people

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Speaker 3: who are different from us. Communities up and down the

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Speaker 3: country have told me that that's what they want to do.

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Speaker 3: They want to get to know their neighbors, They want

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Speaker 3: to mix and mingle with people who are from different backgrounds.

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Speaker 3: They don't want to live in a divided New Zealand. Rather,

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Speaker 3: they want to live in a united country. And so

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Speaker 3: I think there's an opportunity for us to provide better

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Speaker 3: spaces for that to occur, to remove the fear and

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Speaker 3: mistrust and suspicion that often occurs when there's.

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Speaker 1: A bit of a vacuum.

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Speaker 3: I think that communities, actually a lot of them have

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Speaker 3: said to me, if not all that better education in

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Speaker 3: this space about the impact of hateful rhetoric would hopefully

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Speaker 3: go some way to perhaps others recognizing the impact of

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Speaker 3: some of their actions, but by the same token, us

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Speaker 3: providing opportunities for us to connect together with people who

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Speaker 3: are different to us shows us that we are far

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Speaker 3: more alike than we are different, and perhaps remove some

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Speaker 3: of that fear that can often fill a gap and

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Speaker 3: loewer of anything else.

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Speaker 2: Well, when it comes to hate speech laws and those reforms,

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Speaker 2: it's always a hot topic, and we've seen time and

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Speaker 2: time again and successive governments of all different colors and

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Speaker 2: stripes pick this up, put it down, cancel it, rejig things.

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Speaker 4: I mean, is it just because it is.

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Speaker 2: So wide reaching and there's that tension between free speech

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Speaker 2: versus hate speech.

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Speaker 3: I think the Australian example has shown us how complex

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Speaker 3: these issues are. I think we know that, but I

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Speaker 3: do think that we've failed to recognize the degree of

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Speaker 3: complexity and nuance in these issues.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking in your general terms here.

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Speaker 3: But I think a lot of people see, if you

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Speaker 3: are for free speech, you must therefore not have any

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Speaker 3: concern whatsoever about hate speech, or if you want changes

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Speaker 3: to our hate speech threshold and laws, then you must

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Speaker 3: want to censor everybody. And I think that's a very

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Speaker 3: binary way of looking at a very complex issue. We

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Speaker 3: can understand and appreciate and want to protect the fundamental

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Speaker 3: human right of freedom of expression and I guess the

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Speaker 3: freedom that affords all of us in a country like

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Speaker 3: New Zealand, while at the same time being very concerned

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Speaker 3: about some of the increasingly harmful and hateful rhetoric that

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Speaker 3: we're seeing directed at communities.

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Speaker 1: I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.

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Speaker 3: I think we need to come together as a country

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Speaker 3: and discuss or hold a constructive, mature, facilitated conversations about

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Speaker 3: how we actually address some of these issues so that

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Speaker 3: we can balance as best we can those two things

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Speaker 3: that are often pitted as competing with one another, and

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Speaker 3: in some senses they do not necessarily, so I accept

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Speaker 3: completely that the threshold for things like incitement needs to

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Speaker 3: be high in order to protect freedom of speech.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that we should accept as a

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Speaker 1: country some of the harmful rhetoric that's directed at communities

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Speaker 1: in many instances, and certainly what I've been doing in

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Speaker 1: my time as Race Relations Commissioner is calling that out

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Speaker 1: and doing.

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Speaker 3: My best to create greater public awareness about the impact

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Speaker 3: of some of this rhetoric that we're seeing on different communities.

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Speaker 1: In New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because the law has always taken that kind of

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Speaker 2: principled approach right, taking context into account to determine where

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Speaker 2: that freedom of expression turns into hate speech. But how

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Speaker 2: difficult is it to differentiate criticism from incitement?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Look, I will say at the outset Chelsea that this

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Speaker 3: requires probably more serious legal analysis than what I'm capable of.

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Speaker 3: But what communities have told me, and I think what

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Speaker 3: communities certainly understand, is that there is a difference between

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Speaker 3: criticizing an ideology, for example, or a school of thought

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Speaker 3: or an idea, and of course calling for harm to people.

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Speaker 3: And I think we probably need to get better about

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Speaker 3: understanding that differentiation in our minds. That sometimes it isn't

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Speaker 3: pleasant when we hear something that's very close to our

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Speaker 3: hearts being criticized. But we've got to come to a

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Speaker 3: place as a nation where we are okay with peaceful

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Speaker 3: disagreement on issues and where we don't see those who

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Speaker 3: disagree with us immediately as enemies. The social media online

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Speaker 3: environment doesn't help here. It pits people, I think in

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Speaker 3: very absolute terms. You know, we probably say things to

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Speaker 3: one another online that we wouldn't say to each other

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Speaker 3: face to face, I would hope, and it puts it

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Speaker 3: sort of puts people almost in these irreconcilable US versus

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Speaker 3: them type teams, and I don't think that's helpful. Most

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Speaker 3: recent Essays report shows that the dangers of online extremism

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Speaker 3: and the polarization that some of those narratives.

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Speaker 1: Are contributing to in our country.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, ultimately, I think we need to certainly differentiate

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Speaker 3: between criticism of a group and people versus criticism of

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Speaker 3: an idea, and sometimes those things can feel blarry.

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Speaker 5: We must channel our anger into meaningful action to ensure

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Speaker 5: an atrocity such as this can never happen again. And

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Speaker 5: that responsibility starts with me as Australia's thirty first Prime Minister.

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Speaker 5: It also belongs to each of us here in this

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Speaker 5: chamber as parliamentarians, and it's a task for all of

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Speaker 5: us as Australians told social cohesion to reject division and prejudice.

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Speaker 2: In terms of online radicalization. Would you see that at

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Speaker 2: the moment as our greatest threat?

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Speaker 1: It's certainly up there, that's for sure.

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Speaker 3: The Essays report showed that sort of grievance narratives and

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Speaker 3: violent extremism is becoming more prevalent in New Zealand. I

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Speaker 3: want to make the point that no one group or

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Speaker 3: ideology stands out there are arrange young people in particular

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Speaker 3: are targeted online or are seen as being more susceptible

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Speaker 3: to these sort of narratives and extremist ideas. And vulnerable

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Speaker 3: people are as well, people who are perhaps isolated or

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Speaker 3: who have experienced particular traumas in their life.

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Speaker 1: I think we need to be.

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Speaker 3: More realistic get better at addressing some of these issues

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Speaker 3: because what the data also show and the NZD Space

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Speaker 3: report is that New Zealand the greatest risk in terms

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Speaker 3: of any terrorist attack in New Zealand is from a

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Speaker 3: loan individual acting as I said, alone and with an

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Speaker 3: access to an easy kind of weapon like a car

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Speaker 3: for example, which is quite frightening when we think about

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Speaker 3: how easy those things are for people to get.

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Speaker 1: Their hands on.

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Speaker 3: Of course, algorithms as well, social media algorithms, we all

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Speaker 3: know how they operate. They start feeding into the mix

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Speaker 3: and the whole thing kind of snowballs. Looking across at

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Speaker 3: the Tasman and what they're debating now in terms of

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Speaker 3: the hate speech laws you've mentioned. A massive lesson that

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Speaker 3: we can learn from them, obviously is seeing how complex

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Speaker 3: an issue like this is.

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Speaker 4: But what else do you think that.

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Speaker 2: We should pay close attention to when they're talking about this.

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Speaker 3: Look how Human Rights Commission, via our Chief Commissioner and

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Speaker 3: via their president I think his titles of the Australian

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Speaker 3: Human Rights Commission have been in touch on this issue.

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Speaker 3: The Australian Commission reached out to us, and this has

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Speaker 3: particular relevance to myral on the Royal Commission of Inquiry

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Speaker 3: into the Chrash hitch Mosk attacks, because I believe they

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Speaker 3: will go ahead and set up the Royal Commission of

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Speaker 3: Inquiry into the horrific Bondai terror attack. And so we're

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Speaker 3: in close communication I suppose with our Australian counterparts, which

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Speaker 3: is good. It's important for us to learn from one

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Speaker 3: another on this during the course of those communications, and

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Speaker 3: what I've seen from them is their submission on these

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Speaker 3: on the proposed hate speech laws, which of course have

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Speaker 3: now been pulled I understand due to some fairly serious

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Speaker 3: opposition from a range of parties for a range of reasons.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things that the Commission Australian Commission

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Speaker 3: raised was looking at the threshold around incitement and exactly

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Speaker 3: where that sits. If current laws were actually being applied

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Speaker 3: in the way that they might be able to be applied,

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Speaker 3: then obviously again sits outside my wheelhouse in terms of

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Speaker 3: the serious legal analysis that that requires, because the Australian

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Speaker 3: President did also note the tendency I guess for unintended

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Speaker 3: consequences to come from some of these laws, the need

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Speaker 3: for laws to be applied evenly and consistently, and of

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Speaker 3: course the complexities around like you've mentioned, context mattering in

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Speaker 3: various instances, so it's not necessarily that something it's a

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Speaker 3: black or white kind of is zero su game type approach.

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Speaker 3: So I think that we can learn a lot from

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Speaker 3: each other. We are certainly in constant communication at the

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Speaker 3: moment on this particular issue. We have seen in recent

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Speaker 3: times in both New Zealand and Australia increasing anti semitism

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Speaker 3: and Islamophobia, and my role is Race Relations Commissioner. I've

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Speaker 3: met with they have in Islamophobia envoy and yet to

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Speaker 3: meet coming up with their anti Semitism envoy.

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Speaker 1: Of talking to one another a lot, so we're not

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Speaker 1: having to.

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Speaker 3: Reinvent the wheel, hoping we can learn from each other,

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Speaker 3: but also recognizing that Australia has faced particularly extreme instances

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Speaker 3: of anti Semitism and Islamophobia recently.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to.

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Speaker 3: Ever put out there a narrative that New Zealand is

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Speaker 3: polarized and there is no hope. There is so many

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Speaker 3: incredible things that are happening in our communities in New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: and I think the recent harmony accord between Jewish and

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Speaker 3: willingness of a range of groups in New Zealand to

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Speaker 3: really work together to address these issues and hopefully to

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Speaker 3: prevent some of the more extremist rhetoric and behavior and

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Speaker 3: so on that we're seeing in a lot of overseas

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Speaker 3: countries coming to our shows here.

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Speaker 2: Reforms to hate speech and hate crime's laws were among

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Speaker 2: some of the recommendations from the Royal Commission of Inquiry

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Speaker 2: into the March.

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Speaker 4: Fifteen terror attack. What if anything has changed then.

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Speaker 3: Look, my understanding is that nothing has changed since then.

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Speaker 3: I think if in terms of the environment, we're perhaps

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Speaker 3: operating in a more polarized in some cases environment, But

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Speaker 3: again I don't want that to be the only narrative

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Speaker 3: that people hear about this country. You know, there are

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Speaker 3: so many incredible community groups and individuals out there who are.

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Speaker 1: Doing wonderful work to you know, to come together on.

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Speaker 3: This particular issue and a range of others, of course,

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Speaker 3: And I think the irrespective and whether the legislative change

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Speaker 3: comes in terms of our hate speech laws, and that's

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Speaker 3: obviously a decision for politicians and so on. I don't

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Speaker 3: think that that means we don't address in some way

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Speaker 3: hate speech or harmful rhetoric that targets communities. And I

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Speaker 3: recognize the subjective nature of those terms, you know, through

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Speaker 3: things like education, through things like providing opportunities for us

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Speaker 3: to come together as a nation human rights in terms

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Speaker 3: of the one of the fundamental ideas is the the

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Speaker 3: inherent dignity of every human being. Imagine what kind of

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Speaker 3: how that calls on us to treat one another. If

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Speaker 3: we hear ideas like that more, and hear messages like

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Speaker 3: that more, How does it call on us to behave

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Speaker 3: ourselves if we think about the inherent dignity within ourselves. So,

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Speaker 3: in my role as commissioners, I'm doing my best to

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Speaker 3: get those sorts.

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Speaker 1: Of messages out there, and certainly.

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Speaker 3: Have plans for things like Race Relations Day as well,

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Speaker 3: to provide a platform for us to come together as

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Speaker 3: a nation where a nation now of over two hundred

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Speaker 3: ethnic communities, one hundred and seventy languages, we want to

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Speaker 3: live in a united New Zealand and to prevent some

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Speaker 3: of these things that are occurring offshore from harmon communities

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Speaker 3: anymore in New Zealand than they already have. Whether there's

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Speaker 3: legislative change or not, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be addressing some of these issues in other ways, and

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Speaker 3: that's what I'm attempting to do in my role, that's

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Speaker 3: for sure.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And of course any kind of rhetoric about

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Speaker 2: the how multicultural we are as the country and how

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Speaker 2: that makes us better is a good thing. But I

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Speaker 2: can't imagine that a Nazi sympathizer would you take part

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Speaker 2: in a Race Relations Day for example?

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Speaker 4: What do we do with those outer fringe groups?

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Speaker 1: Great question?

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Speaker 3: And I think at the moment, as I see issues,

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Speaker 3: they are currently playing out in the extremes.

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Speaker 1: So if we take a really big issue like immigration,

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Speaker 1: for example, it's a.

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Speaker 3: Hot topic overseas, there are people who are raising this

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Speaker 3: as a topic in New Zealand. I see, for example,

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Speaker 3: the role of the Human Rights Commission and certainly perhaps

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Speaker 3: me in particular as Race Relations Commissioner, to provide opportunities

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Speaker 3: and a platform to facilitate strengthening middle ground on these issues.

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Speaker 3: We need to provide people with a space to address

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Speaker 3: genuine concerns, not extreme racist rhetoric that's quite simply vile,

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Speaker 3: but genuine concerns about the kind of country that we're

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Speaker 3: living in and the sorts of ways that we can

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Speaker 3: ensure that harmonious relations and social cohesion is protected without

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Speaker 3: of course making us all this same as one another.

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Speaker 3: That's not how we want to be either. We want

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Speaker 3: to be living in a country where we can be

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Speaker 3: our unique selves but still get along with our neighbors

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Speaker 3: and be prepared to sit down and have a cup

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Speaker 3: of tea with one another. That's the role that I

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Speaker 3: see the Human Rights Commission playing, And I think that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we probably can't persuade people on the extremes of either

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Speaker 3: end of any debate, but how do we strengthen the

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Speaker 3: middle ground and provide those opportunities so that people don't see, well,

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Speaker 3: the only people who are raising these issues are on

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Speaker 3: the extremes, and that to me just creates further division

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Speaker 3: and polarization.

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Speaker 2: Right, and then that would mean that those people in

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Speaker 2: the middle ground won't slowly float either way either like

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Speaker 2: we see, and that's that online radicalization, right.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, we want to provide some opportunities for people to

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Speaker 3: have really constructive conversations where the message isn't that we

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Speaker 3: have to agree with it agree with one another, but

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Speaker 3: where we don't see those who disagree with us immediately

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Speaker 3: as Y and I think that's a really really important

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Speaker 3: message for us to get out there, to combat any

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Speaker 3: polarization that already exists, and of course to stop.

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Speaker 1: Making it in order to hopefully prevent making it even worse.

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Speaker 6: The best working definition of what hate speeches is the

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Speaker 6: one that the Germany has adopted in other European and

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Speaker 6: think of it like group defamation. So we're all part

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Speaker 6: of groups where Christian or Jewish or Muslim, or we're

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Speaker 6: gay or trans and if someone says something which libels

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Speaker 6: that group as a group and tries to say, aha,

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Speaker 6: you don't belong here in society. You have less inherent

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Speaker 6: dignity as a group than other people. But that hates me.

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Speaker 2: And in terms of those out I mean, I know

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Speaker 2: that the police and sas do an amazing job of

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Speaker 2: keeping track of people with extremist views, but it does

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Speaker 2: feel like when we talk about big change, we think

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Speaker 2: of it as very reactionary. So I'm thinking nine to eleven,

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Speaker 2: airports change, airport security changed, forever. You're thinking Christchurch Mosk attacks.

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Speaker 2: We've got the gun By back Port, Arthur massacre, gun

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Speaker 2: By back in Australia and now the Bondi attack potentially

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Speaker 2: leading to hate speech laws and hate crime laws in Australia.

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Speaker 4: Do you think we should be.

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Speaker 2: Less reactionary when it comes to, you know, those big

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Speaker 2: law reforms and those big changes.

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Speaker 1: Yes to no.

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Speaker 3: I think it probably depends on a case by case situation.

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Speaker 1: I think if there's a.

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Speaker 3: Real gap that we can plug, if you like, in

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Speaker 3: response to those horrific attacks you've mentioned and lock I've

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Speaker 3: as I mentioned, I've been in the role of Race

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Speaker 3: Relations Commissioner for a year, but I'm working closely with

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Speaker 3: christ Church Muslim communities, indeed Muslim communities up and down

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Speaker 3: the country. But including that, so I see nearly seven

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Speaker 3: years on the ongoing impacts of the christ church, terra

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Speaker 3: attacks on a community. So if there is anything that

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Speaker 3: we can do to prevent those sorts of things happening again,

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Speaker 3: we've got to do it. Of Course, by the same token,

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Speaker 3: we want to make sure that the things that we

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Speaker 3: are putting in place are as well thought through as possible,

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Speaker 3: are addressing the actual issue at hand, and don't have

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Speaker 3: unintended consequences, and of course protect in the case of

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Speaker 3: hate speech laws and freedom of expression other rights in

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Speaker 3: the mix that we also want to make sure we

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Speaker 3: are recognizing and looking after.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing that I did notice with the Australian laws,

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Speaker 2: and sorry to keep bringing this up, but you know,

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Speaker 2: it is kind of a blueprint of things, like you know,

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Speaker 2: Anthony Aubernezy kind of put out a blueprint of everything

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Speaker 2: that was possible and we're slowly seeing that get taken away.

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Speaker 2: But one of the reactions to the initial draft law

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Speaker 2: was that, you know, making it illegal to be a

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Speaker 2: part of a hate group, and that saw the disbandment

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Speaker 2: of the National Nazi Network or something. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to say their full name on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: but they basically sent out a newsletter saying we're going

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Speaker 2: to disband by this Sunday.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: In one respect, yeay, But in another, those groups are

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Speaker 2: always going to continue to be there, whether you see

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Speaker 2: them or whether you don't. So is something like that

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Speaker 2: better to be seen rather than tucked away in the

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Speaker 2: shadows because they're gonna they're gonna pop up somewhere else, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's an argument that by banning things, you don't remove

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Speaker 3: it necessarily, you simply push it underground. And look, if

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Speaker 3: I can tell a quick story, I come from a

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Speaker 3: storytelling background. But if I can tell a quick story

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Speaker 3: about time spent in the US. I was researching the

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Speaker 3: horrific Emettel case and from the civil rights movement back

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Speaker 3: in the fifties, I spent time at a particular community

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Speaker 3: there with a man who was African American and who

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Speaker 3: worked in one of the museums. He and I were

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Speaker 3: walking around a very small part of Mississippi, and he said,

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Speaker 3: I now don't know where the sort of houses to

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Speaker 3: avoid are because the district that he was living in

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Speaker 3: had recently banned the flying of the Confederate flag. He

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Speaker 3: knew when they hung those things in the windows. Let

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Speaker 3: me not go down that street. I'll go down the

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Speaker 3: street instead. But suddenly he didn't know that, and it

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Speaker 3: stuck with me because, on the surface, like you've said,

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Speaker 3: we think, great, these things should be banned.

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Speaker 1: They are often used as symbols of hate.

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Speaker 3: But of course I don't think that by banning it

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Speaker 3: people necessarily changed their view. They simply for someone like him,

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Speaker 3: he simply didn't know how to keep himself safe or

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Speaker 3: as safe as he would like to have any more.

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Speaker 3: That's one example. Of course, there is the other example

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Speaker 3: to say, well, why should we tolerate, you know, groups

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Speaker 3: like your Nazi Australian group, And yeah, I think that

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Speaker 3: it's probably a case by case basis. Perhaps in some

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Speaker 3: instances banning something does send a signal and can change

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Speaker 3: attitudes in society, but look again, whether that happens or

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Speaker 3: not is a decision for others to make. We also,

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Speaker 3: like I say, want to be careful of a slippery

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Speaker 3: slope off Suddenly we're legislating who we can and can't

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Speaker 3: associate with.

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Speaker 1: I think as well, it's.

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Speaker 3: Important to point out that from a human rights perspective,

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Speaker 3: at the end of the Second World War, the human

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Speaker 3: rights doctrine, if you like, came about to prevent governments

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Speaker 3: doing harm. So we also want to keep that in

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Speaker 3: mind too. And that's not to say that legislative change

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Speaker 3: is harm. I'm just putting that out there as a consideration,

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Speaker 3: which I think is probably why the Australian example has

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Speaker 3: shown us how complex these issues are and how difficult

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Speaker 3: they can be, and how we can't see them in

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Speaker 3: these binary yes or no terms. But we need to

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Speaker 3: be able to sit down and look at all of

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Speaker 3: the factors in the mix so we get things right.

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Speaker 1: So we do protect.

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Speaker 3: Communities, but so we also protect pretty fundamental freedoms that

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Speaker 3: we all enjoy in countries like New Zealand and Australia.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Melissa, my pleasure. That's it for

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Speaker 2: this episode of The Front Page. You can read more

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Speaker 2: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot

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Speaker 2: co dot nz. The Front Page is hosted and produced

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Speaker 2: by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine Dickie is our studio operator,

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Speaker 2: Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and our executive producer.

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Speaker 4: Is Jane Ye.

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Speaker 2: Follow the Front Page on the iHeart app or wherever

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Speaker 2: you get your podcasts, and join us next time

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Speaker 4: For another look beyond the headlines.