1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: This week on a Business of Tech powered by two 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Degrees Business, we're at the intersection of computer science and 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: advanced physics. We're looking at one of the most hyped 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: and misunderstood areas of science, quantum computing, and we've got 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: a leading KIWEK expert to talk us through the cubits 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: and the quantum entanglement, with Professor Andrew Daily joining us 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: to break down exactly what this tech can do for us. 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: Andrew is a leading New Zealand physicist who has spent 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: two decades at the frontier of quantum research. Since leaving 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: New Zealand, Andrew's now based at the University of Oxford 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: in the UK, and he's actually the principal investigator for 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: a new quantum computing research effort hosted by Oxford. It's 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: called the QCI three Hub. It's one of five national 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: hubs that last year were funded to the tune of 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: one hundred and six million pounds collectively. Andrew's team has 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: been tasked with improving the performance of quantum computers. 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: They're working with industry. 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: Partners to do so. It's part of a really substantial 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,279 Speaker 1: and sustained investment in quantum in the UK we'll unpack 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: exactly what a quantum computer actually is, why it matters 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: for breakthroughs in material science, climate modeling, healthcare and encryption, 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: and where the global race stands today, from the UK 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: hubs to the high stakes competition between the US, China 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: and even Australia. Andrew also explains when New Zealand already 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: contributes to this field, think about things like photonics, cryogenics, 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: superconductors and fundamental physics, and how we might shape our 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: own role in the global quantum ecosystem. So if you've 28 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: ever wondered whether quantum computing is just hype or the 29 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: next technology to truly transform science, industry and society, this episode. 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: Will give you the clarity you need. 31 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: Here's my chat recorded a few weeks back in Wellington 32 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: with quantum physicist Professor Andrew Daily. Andrew, Welcome to the 33 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: Business of Tech. Great to see you. You're in New Zealand. 34 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: What you've been visiting Auckland University, University of Otago as well. 35 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, visiting a University of Otago and also here in 36 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 3: Wellington to visit various people at Victoria University and meet 37 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 3: with people from the Robinson Institute and the mcdermmer's Institute. 38 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: And it's topical timing the announcement about the Advanced Technology Institute, 39 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: this public research organization which is focusing on things like AI, 40 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,399 Speaker 1: synthetic biology and quantum technologies. 41 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 4: Which is your area of expertise. 42 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 1: And it's been a long journey from physics at the 43 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: University of Auckland to the UK where you're playing a 44 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: real leading role at Oxford University in the UK quantum efforts. 45 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: Take us back to how you got there. 46 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: I think you actually started studying law, right. 47 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 3: Yes, actually that is true. 48 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I was. 49 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: I was at at Auckland University in the late nineties 50 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 3: and initially started a content degree in law and science. 51 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 3: And what sort of happened was in my first year 52 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 3: I really enjoyed law, but I enjoyed physics even more 53 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 3: and decided that I would put the law degree on 54 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 3: hold and sort of focus on physics, and enjoyed it 55 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 3: so much that I never went back. So yeah, So 56 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 3: I did a master's degree at Auckland and finished that 57 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 3: in two thousand and two and then went to do 58 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 3: my PhD at the University of Innsbrook in Austria, where 59 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 3: there's a big center in quantum optics and quantum technologies 60 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 3: now more broadly and kind of just sort of followed 61 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 3: opportunities from there. I was a senior researcher there for 62 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: a number of years after my PhD there, and was 63 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: an assistant professor at the University of Pittsburgh in the US, 64 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 3: and then for ten years I was a professor at 65 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow. So in Scotland there's 66 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 3: a lot going on also ontom photonics. And then two 67 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: years ago I got my current position as a professor 68 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 3: of quantum physics at the University of Oxford. 69 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've been in a range of really esteemed organizations. 70 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: What is at the core of your particular research interest. 71 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: You talked about quantum photonics there, maybe explain there. 72 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, so my background is instead of quantum optics and 73 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: atomic physics, so really are the interactions of light and 74 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 3: atoms And guess what we are sort of doing is 75 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 3: thinking about understanding the properties of how light interacts with 76 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 3: individual atoms, how you can trap and control individual atoms 77 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 3: with light, and then basically what you can do with it, 78 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 3: both in terms of understanding fundamental physics and then how 79 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 3: you can translate that into technologies that can have a 80 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 3: real world impact. And the point is that the physics 81 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 3: of small objects like atoms is surprisingly different to what 82 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: we see in the world around us, and that gives 83 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,679 Speaker 3: you both a lot of really fascinating things to study, 84 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 3: the potential to build extremely sensitive sensors, measuring devices that 85 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 3: could be used in medical imaging, for example, or sort 86 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 3: of give you completely different properties that you could make 87 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 3: to build a computer in a very different way to 88 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 3: how we build sort of the world's best super computers currently. 89 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: And quantum optics and photonics, and that seems to be 90 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: a real area of expertise for New Zealand. We just 91 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: had was it Quantify the startup here to solve for 92 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars plus very precise measurements optical measuring 93 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: systems that they sold to a big Nasdaq company. 94 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 4: So we'll talk a bit. 95 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: About the optic side of stuff and where we're showing 96 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: real strength here. But let's just dial it back. You 97 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: talked about quantum computers there. There's been so much in 98 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: the media in the last few years about the race 99 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: to develop quantum computers. 100 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 4: Really keen to get. 101 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: Your insight into where we are at in the development 102 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: of quantum computers. 103 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 4: But maybe just take it right back and explain to 104 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 4: us what a quantum computer actually is. 105 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, a quantum computer, as I said, is a 106 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 3: device that it's a computer that you build out of 107 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 3: individual atoms, or out of individual photons, particles of light, 108 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 3: or sort of micro and nanoelectronic circuits. And the idea 109 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 3: is that you base it around these sort of very 110 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: unusual properties that these very small systems have. And the 111 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 3: power of these sort of quantum systems comes from the 112 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: fact that, if you know, in classical computers you're used 113 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 3: to dealing with bits, zeros, and ones, if you add 114 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: one extra bit of information to a quantum computer, then 115 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 3: in principle trying to describe everything that that could hold 116 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 3: information wise, by adding one extra bit, you would have 117 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: to double the size of a classical supercomputer that was 118 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 3: trying to describe that quantum system. And so very quickly, 119 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 3: once you string together about fifty or sixty of these 120 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 3: quantum bits, they start to become very very difficult to 121 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 3: describe on any existing classical computer. You simply don't have 122 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 3: enough memory to store all the possibilities there are challenges 123 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: in that, And actually the first interesting element is that 124 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 3: this feature makes it very different difficult to use a 125 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 3: classical computer to describe the quantum systems that we might 126 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 3: want to understand in chemistry or in materials. If you're 127 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: trying to build new battery cathodes or industrial catalysts or 128 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 3: things like that, trying to describe those sort of microscopic 129 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: systems is very hard on existing computers, and this is 130 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 3: one of the sort of early things you might be 131 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,559 Speaker 3: able to do with a quantum computer. On the other hand, 132 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 3: building and programming computers based on this set of physics 133 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: is itself very challenging, because first you have to build 134 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: it in such a way that it's sort of isolated 135 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: from the environment around it in order to really maintain 136 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: these sort of special properties. And also you can image 137 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: that a computer that works based on very different principles 138 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 3: is also very different to program So you can't just 139 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: take the sort of programs that you would run on 140 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: existing computers and run them on a quantum computer and 141 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 3: get any advantage from that at all. So it becomes 142 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: a real challenge to understand how you can apply these 143 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: quantum computers and where there are real opportunities to make 144 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: a huge impact, and as I said, in chemistry and 145 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 3: the materials, we've got very clear paths. People talk a 146 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: lot about the ability of quantum computers to calculate the 147 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 3: factors of very large numbers, and that has implications for 148 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 3: modern cryptography systems, and there are a lot of potential applications. 149 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 3: More widely, we are exploring things in fluid dynamics, for example, 150 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: which is huge across many industries, and I think there 151 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: are a lot of opportunities. But at the moment, it's 152 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 3: important to bring together people who are developing the harbor 153 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 3: and the software for quantum computers with experts in the 154 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 3: application areas in order to really understand how to use 155 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: these devices that are on the way to do calculations 156 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 3: that will make a big impact on the real world. 157 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I've seen some of these quantum computers. 158 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: They talk about the golden chandelier, you know at IBM 159 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: and New York and elsewhere. 160 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 4: And that's really not the computer. 161 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: That's all the cooling and there stuff that goes around 162 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: it to keep it in a very stable and very 163 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: cold state. And in the middle of it you'll typically 164 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: see a little computer chip which is the quantum chip. 165 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: We've heard you announcements all the time about cubits, the 166 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: number of cubits, these quantum bits that are able. 167 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 4: To be achieved on a computer that's going up and 168 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 4: up and up. 169 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: So the hardware is improving, But there's another big issue, 170 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: isn't there That there's a lot of errors that are 171 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: introduced in the quantum world and you have to address 172 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: those errors to get any sensible output from a quantum computer. 173 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: How are we doing on the error correction front? 174 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, in fact, in the last few years has 175 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 3: been a really big improvement in the hardware that's enabled 176 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 3: us to start doing quantum error correction. And what's really 177 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 3: exciting across a number of different physical platforms is to see, 178 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 3: you know, the first implementations of error correction. The whole 179 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 3: idea there, of course, is that these systems will always 180 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 3: couple a little bit to the world around them, and 181 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 3: that always introduces noise in the calculations. And so where 182 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 3: we are at the moment is that when you go 183 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 3: to perform a calculation that involves sort of processing information 184 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 3: on two of our quantum bits, depending on the technology, 185 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 3: you have sort of errors that are introduced, you know, 186 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 3: of the order of one of every thousand or one 187 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 3: every ten thousand operations, and of course at the moment 188 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 3: you know that will sort of restrict things that you 189 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 3: can't really do any serious calculation with that. What error 190 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 3: correction does is it allows you effectively to make use 191 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 3: of spreading the information you're processing over many bits in 192 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 3: such a way that by having the information sort of 193 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: more delocalized, you can kind of have extra copies of 194 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: it that avoid this problem. So it's a little bit 195 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: of a challenge because you can't copy information in the 196 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: quantum system, but there are ways of delocalizing it to 197 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: make this error correction work. And so at the moment, 198 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 3: some of the main sort of candidates for building quantum 199 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 3: computers that superconducting cubits you're talking about before, but also 200 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 3: neutral atoms held in sort of optical tweezers created with 201 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 3: laser light. They're getting to the point where over the 202 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 3: next few years we're likely to have about sort of 203 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: ten thousand physical cubits that have error rates of about 204 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 3: one part in one thousand, and what you can do is, 205 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: using error correction sort of take those and build the 206 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: order of about one hundred sort of cubits where you're 207 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 3: going to do it really calculation on that information, but 208 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 3: with error rates of one part in the mind and 209 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 3: so that's pretty good. And when we get to that point, 210 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 3: there are things that we already know that we can 211 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 3: do with these machines that are going to be of 212 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: interest to scientists that we can't calculate on the world's 213 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 3: biggest supercomputers. And that's really exciting. And then the challenge 214 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 3: now is really to go out and work together with 215 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 3: experts and application areas across materials, across chemistry and wider 216 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: fields to understand how you can make use of that 217 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 3: or the sort of next generation of the machines beyond 218 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: that in order to make a big impact on computations 219 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 3: and other areas. 220 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: To boil it down and to watch the use of 221 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: this stuff for us when we were at an event 222 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: last night at the Britishigh Commission where someone asked that, 223 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: and it really is that the speed with which you 224 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: can do calculations that for instance, Google's quantum computer, they 225 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: claimed in five minutes they're able to do a calculation 226 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: that would have taken longer than the time it took 227 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: for the universe to form, you know, that's the sort 228 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: of scale that we can shrink down working on really 229 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: complex calculation. So whether it's climate change, whether it's healthcare, 230 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: material science, new molecules, it's potentially going to accelerate scientific 231 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: research exactly. 232 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: So there are big opportunities there and understanding exactly how 233 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: best to use that is one of the open challenges. 234 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 3: But now that we have machines coming online we can 235 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 3: try out small scale things, we can understand how those 236 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 3: calculations are scaling. And one of the things that we're 237 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 3: doing in the UK in particular is trying to bring 238 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: together interdisciplinary networks of people from academia and from industry 239 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: who really understand where the key crunch points are that 240 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: are preventing calculations being done even on the world's biggest supercomputers, 241 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: and trying to understand where and how you can best 242 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: use quantum computers to solve those problems. 243 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: Where is the UK at in quantum development? Is the 244 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: UK building quantum computers? 245 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 3: Yes, so the UK is building quantum computers. We also 246 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 3: have a national lab, the Nation Quantum Computing Center that's 247 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 3: been set up both to evaluate and work with set 248 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 3: of technologies that are generally being built by industry and 249 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 3: then also to connect into academic research that's going on 250 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 3: that can support those those industrial developments. And the National 251 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 3: quant Computing Center is also doing a lot of work 252 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: helping to sort of educate industry and to work for 253 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 3: people to understand where the biggest applications are going to be. 254 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 3: We have then a much wider National Quantum Technologies Program, 255 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 3: and the UK has invested over the last eleven years 256 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 3: actually now over a billion pounds and supporting not just 257 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 3: the development of quantum computing but also quantum sensors, quantum 258 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: communications networks, and it's actually really exciting to see the 259 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: industrial landscape that has built up sort of around that 260 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: National Quantum Technologies Program. 261 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: So the UK has all of these tubs, is five 262 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: of them around the UK that are specializing in different 263 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: parts of the quantum puzzle. 264 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 4: Europe principal investigator of one of them tell us about 265 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 4: these hubs. 266 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the hubs form the sort of the central 267 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 3: part of the National Quantum Technologies Program and they've we've 268 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: had hubs in the UK for the last eleven years. 269 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 3: Each of them sort of is a five year, twenty 270 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: million pound project basically that brings together academics who focus 271 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: around the translation of research from universities out into the 272 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 3: real world, and they've focused on not just quantum computing, 273 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 3: but also on quantum sensing and metrology, on on quantum 274 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: communications networks, and previously quantum imaging. In the new generation 275 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 3: of hubs that we have, we also have specific focus 276 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: on quantum technologies for healthcare, where for example, people are 277 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 3: making very sensitive magnetic field sensors based on atoms and 278 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 3: little vapor cells driven by by lasers, and this allows 279 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: you to build brain scanners that you can use to 280 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 3: try to study elepsy or Alzheimer's disease. And these are 281 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 3: being built into helmets, so that, for example, if you 282 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 3: want to study child epilepsy, you can just have a 283 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 3: helmet that is put on their head rather than having 284 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 3: them to stay still inside a big magnetic field sensor. 285 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 3: And so that sort of thing is very exciting. We 286 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 3: also have a hub for position navigation and timing. And 287 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 3: you might say position navocation and timing. You know, we 288 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 3: have the GPS system, but there was a study done 289 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: a few years ago that if we lost access to 290 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 3: the GPS system and the other equivalents the GNSS in 291 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: general for five days, it would cost the UK economy 292 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: of the order of five billion pounds. And so what 293 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 3: we're trying to do is use quantum technologies to essentially 294 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 3: allow autonomous navigation and timing sort of without needing the 295 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 3: GPS system. 296 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 4: Right, it's pretty important. 297 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, is quantum we here in the mainstream media. 298 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 4: You know the US China rivalry. 299 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: We know the US of spending a lot of money 300 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: on quantum, a lot of startups in that space. Shina 301 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: we know less about, but they're forging ahead with quantum 302 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: computers as well. Australia has doubled down majorly on investing 303 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: in quantum to extent that the government has funded the 304 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: best part of a billion dollars into Cyde Quantum to 305 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: build small quantum computers. 306 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 4: Is there a national interest element to this? 307 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: Is it really important to sort of have sovereign capability 308 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: in quantum computing and associated technologies. 309 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's very important for countries to 310 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 3: develop their own capabilities here. And obviously there is that 311 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 3: of this international race, and there are certain elements obviously 312 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: that have implications for defense and security, and of course 313 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 3: the governments are very conscious of that. I would say 314 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 3: that what is necessary here though, is both that countries 315 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 3: develop their own capability and their own understanding of how 316 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 3: they're going to use technologies, how they're going to make 317 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 3: sure that they have those technologies available to them. But 318 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 3: at the same time, in the development of these technologies, 319 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 3: we actually still need a lot of international collaboration and 320 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 3: especially you know, I mentioned before that a lot of 321 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 3: what's been done is a collaboration between academia and an 322 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 3: industry and in that sort of pipeline for the ideas 323 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 3: that are going to be important in building up large 324 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 3: scale quantum computers or in the applications of quantum sensors. 325 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: I think it's also important to have international collaboration because 326 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 3: there are a lot of technological challenges that need to 327 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 3: be solved and I don't think that any one country 328 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 3: is going to have all of the expertise that they 329 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 3: need to solve all of those challenges. And so and 330 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 3: you do see that, you know, a lot of international 331 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 3: collaboration in these in these areas. So you know, my 332 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 3: own area is quantum computing, as mentioning before, so I'm 333 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 3: the principal investigator of the UK sub the quantum computing 334 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,479 Speaker 3: in this phase of the program, and obviously we have 335 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 3: a lot of work sort of nationally, but there is 336 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 3: a lot of collaboration both industrial. We have a lot 337 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 3: of companies that are based part in the United States 338 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 3: and part in the UK, or part in Europe and 339 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 3: part in the UK. And we have on the research 340 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 3: level really a lot of very important set of academic collaborations. 341 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 3: So we work with people all over the world. 342 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 4: Looking at what we have here. 343 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: We're not building quantum computers in New Zealand, that's not 344 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: our specialty, but Dodge Wall Center various other Robson Research 345 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: Institute are working on associated technologies around it that could 346 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: be useful to these efforts in the UK and elsewhere 347 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: to build highly functioning quantum computers and this whole idea 348 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: of quantum communication as well, maybe take us through. What 349 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: you see is the value that we can add, the 350 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: bits of the puzzle that we can put on the 351 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: table for the quantum industry in general. 352 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean so I think that there are sort 353 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 3: of two There are two sides to that, and as 354 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 3: you mentioned, you know, one of them is that the technologies, 355 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 3: and you see right now today things being developed in 356 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 3: photonics and then transduction and photonics in the DoD Wall 357 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 3: Center and quantum memories that could be extremely useful for 358 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 3: quantum communications networks, for quantum sensors, and to form an 359 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: underpinning technology for building quantum computers. And you also have 360 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 3: lots of interest there in understanding sort of the physics 361 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 3: sol systems that maybe quantum computers could describe very well. 362 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: You see in the Robinson Institute you see an interest in, 363 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 3: for example, cryogenic electronics, which is going to be important 364 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 3: for certain ways of building quantum computers. And in them 365 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 3: Diomede Institute, you have a lot of interest in sort 366 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 3: of material systems which are probably sort of one of 367 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: the first candidates for real world impact of quantum computers 368 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 3: and describing those materials. And as I was saying before, 369 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: it's going to be so important for people developing quantum 370 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 3: hardware and software to work together with experts in those 371 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: application areas. I think there's a lot here that you 372 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 3: could do in New Zealand also specifically on the applications 373 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 3: of quantum computing. So there's that sort of technological base, 374 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 3: and I think that it's important to also recognize that 375 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 3: New Zealand has already significantly impacted this area internationally, that 376 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 3: in fact, a lot of the underpinnings of what we 377 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 3: do in quantum communications and therefore also instead of scaling 378 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: up quantum computers via sort of photonic links, is based 379 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 3: on physics that was developed actually at the University of 380 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 3: Waikato in the nineteen seventies and eighties that two physicists 381 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 3: Dan Walls after him the part of the Dodd Wall 382 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 3: Center is named, and Chrispin Gardner who started school for 383 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 3: theoretical physics there that really laid the foundations for a 384 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: lot of sort of early quantum optics. And again the 385 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 3: basis of a lot of the techniques of years in 386 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 3: our research came out of that work here in New Zealand, 387 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 3: you know, thirty or forty years ago. And you also 388 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: see as a result of that and that investment effectively 389 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 3: in people a large degree of expertise here in New 390 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 3: Zealand and also in Australia, there are a lot of 391 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 3: scientists that can really trace their roots back to that 392 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 3: work that was done there, and then later you know 393 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 3: at the University of Auckland and Victoria and Otaga University, 394 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 3: and so you have really a critical mass of people 395 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 3: who think about the underpinding physics in this area and 396 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 3: that work is still relevant today. Is the sort of 397 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 3: underpinnings of what we're going to be doing in future 398 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: generations of this technology. 399 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 4: That's incredible. 400 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: Just it's amazing where keewis pop up and the influence 401 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: they have. I'm thinking of someone you may have known 402 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: at UK University, James E. 403 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 4: Hacker, who created the art statistical. 404 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: Language and that's used all over the world now, so 405 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: including by physicists and mathematicians all over the place. 406 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 4: So that influence. 407 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, we know about our three Noble winners, we know 408 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: the influence they've had that so many New Zealand scientists 409 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: have had influens on technologies and research all over the world. 410 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 4: It's incredible. 411 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: But in terms of you know, the hubs and the 412 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: UK model, I think you noted recently there's been a 413 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: number of spinout companies from the hub model. What's the 414 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: key do you think to getting to a point where 415 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: this can become a commercial venture. You know, we've seen, 416 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: as I said, Quantify as a twenty year journey in 417 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: New Zealand. 418 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 4: Little known company just sold. 419 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: Earlier this year to a Nasdaq listic company for a 420 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: lot of money, So great exit for those founders. After 421 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: a lot of hard work, but startup world usually has 422 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: shorter horizons five to seven years before they reached a 423 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: commercial viability. In that what was the key to some 424 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: of those companies gaining traction. 425 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 4: And how can we sort of foster that in New Zealand. 426 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 3: So I think what you see is is, of course, 427 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 3: you know, growing interest internationally and the development of these 428 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 3: technologies and sort of so many individual underpinning tech logical 429 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 3: challenges that need to be solved in order to get 430 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 3: to where we need to be with these sort of 431 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 3: large scale, large scale quantum computers or indeed sort of 432 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 3: similar things in quantum sensing and so forth. And I 433 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 3: think the key is to have you know, points of 434 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 3: sort of technological difference that have been sort of developed 435 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 3: in in academia or often in universities, people going and 436 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 3: researching new ways of doing things that are going to 437 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 3: significantly improve components of these sort of larger systems. And 438 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 3: then what you see is as people generating a startup 439 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 3: company to further develop those sort of initial ideas you know, 440 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 3: into a viable product. And then you will often see 441 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: either the product being sold to larger companies that of 442 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 3: who are building a quantum computer or who are interested 443 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: in sensing in a particular area, or indeed you see 444 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 3: the startup being being bought and incorporated into a larger organization. 445 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 3: So in the UK, over the sort of first sort 446 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 3: of ten or eleven years of our national program, there 447 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: are been forty nine startups across computing and sensing and communications, 448 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 3: which is just kind of incredible and it really sort 449 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 3: of emphasizes the importance of the industrial lands and the 450 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 3: size of the industrial landscape that's been been generated. Ten 451 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 3: of those were in the first two phases in quantum computing, 452 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: which also tells you that there's sort of so much 453 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 3: going on in these other areas. But those ten computing 454 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 3: startups of that same sort of period, you know, had 455 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 3: some somewhere in the vicinity of two hundred and thirty 456 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 3: million pounds of investment funding. And I think that's the 457 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: other thing that the government has sort of started to see. 458 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 3: I said that, you know, the government's put in a 459 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 3: billion pounds and of that, you know, sort of a 460 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 3: couple of hundred million was to these sort of these 461 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 3: hubs over the first two phases, and another sort of 462 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 3: one hundred and seventy four million I think was as 463 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 3: part of an Industrial Strategy Challenge fund that specifically looked 464 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 3: to link academia and industry. And what you're starting to 465 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 3: see is that being substantially multiplied in the sort of 466 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 3: the private investment and the commercial investment into these areas. 467 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 4: What opportunity do you see? 468 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: There's obviously momentum now the government has this Advanced Technology Institute. 469 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 4: We've got areas of expertise. 470 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: Even in mcdirn Institute and Material Science Robson Research Institute, 471 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: Don Walls and others. 472 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 4: What should the government be doing now? 473 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: We've done, for instance, have a national strategy around quantum. 474 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: We just published one on AI. So they've realized that 475 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: to have a coherent approach you need to get everyone 476 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: on the same page. Has that been a useful thing 477 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: for the UK to get everyone on the same page? Actually, 478 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: the government publishing a national strategy. 479 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 3: I think it has been and it's been particularly good 480 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 3: at getting industry engaged as well. And I think that, 481 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 3: you know, what is so important is to support the 482 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 3: areas where you have research expertise, also in universities. Also 483 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 3: because it brings people into the country from outside or 484 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 3: trains up New Zealanders who are then experts in these 485 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 3: areas and then can form the basis for industry in 486 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 3: these areas. So supporting those sort of university initiatives both 487 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 3: for the development of the technologies and for the training 488 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 3: of people is extremely important. And then get industry engaged. 489 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 3: You know, have industry sort of start to understand what 490 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 3: impact these sorts of technologies are going to have on them. 491 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 3: Quantum computing might be a little bit sort of further 492 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 3: down the track, but as I said, in things like 493 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 3: materials research and in fluid dynamics, we're already talking with 494 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 3: industrial partners. My own research group, I have for PhD 495 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 3: students who are currently entirely a half supported by people 496 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 3: in industry who are keen to understand how quantum computing 497 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 3: is going to impact their specific area, and you know, 498 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 3: have some sort of a way to really get that 499 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 3: communication going where you have sort of jointly supported approach 500 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 3: as well between between universities and industry. One key feature 501 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 3: of the first couple of phases of our national program 502 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 3: was a partnership resource fund that was provided to the 503 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 3: quantum hubs, with the idea being that they would identify 504 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 3: real opportunities for academics to collaborate with industry, and this 505 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 3: would sort of provide seed funds of the order of 506 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 3: sort of one hundred k to kind of kickstart that 507 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 3: engagement and get people an industry really involved in what 508 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: was going on in the academic research. And I think 509 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 3: that's helped a lot in growing the industry engagement and 510 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 3: has been really a cornerstone of what we've done in 511 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 3: our national program. 512 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, that'd be great. 513 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: We did see at the Commission last night some really 514 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: interesting uses of quantum technologies. Bill Frey from the Earth 515 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: Science Institute using five rock to cables that crisscrossed the 516 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: ocean floor, using the light signals along there to detect 517 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: potential armies and early warning systems for tsunamis even out 518 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: of dog walls. A really interesting project I hadn't come 519 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: across about sort of zapping varroa mites off bees, a 520 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: big potential problem exactly. 521 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 3: This is really one of the things to emphasize that 522 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 3: there are that you know, people think about quantum computers 523 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 3: a lot, and there's a big amount of hyperund quantum computing, 524 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 3: but actually I think the initial impacts of these things 525 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 3: are going to be in a combination of quantum sensing 526 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 3: and you see sort of some of this, as you say, 527 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 3: with the sort of early warning systems for tsunamis and 528 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: sort of some of these healthcare applications I was describing before. 529 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 3: But also as you develop all of those things, the 530 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 3: underpinning technologies you know, in terms of the photonics and 531 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 3: so on, are going to have their own applications. And yes, 532 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 3: these varroa mites soft bees and that was really it 533 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: was really impressive, and again as a good example of 534 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 3: what can come out of investment in this wider area. 535 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 4: Just a couple of final questions. 536 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: I'm intrigued out, and I know that the people at 537 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: dog Walls are sort of interested in this concept of 538 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: quantum communication. You have a quantum computer, it's generating information. 539 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: You want to send that somewhere in a really secure 540 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: sort of way. How does that actually happen? I mean 541 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: we are already hearing about quantum satellites and things like that. 542 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 4: How does that work? 543 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the idea here is that if you can 544 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 3: link up essentially a quantum network like this, you can 545 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 3: have essentially provably secure communications in the sense that if 546 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 3: you build the system right, you can show that there 547 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 3: is that there is no way that someone can sort 548 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 3: of intercept a signal without you knowing that they are 549 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 3: that they are intercepting it, and you can build a 550 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 3: link and then use that link to send sort of 551 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 3: secured information. Now it's important for secured information, but it's 552 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 3: also very important for quantum computers because this is what 553 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 3: will allow you to really properly link up quantum computers, 554 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 3: both scaling them up, you know, linking individual module within 555 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 3: one data center, but also allowing quantum computers to talk 556 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 3: to each other across the world. And if you had, 557 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 3: for example, a small quantum computer in New Zealand and 558 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 3: you might want to run a calculation on a bigger 559 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 3: quantum computer that might be based elsewhere in the world, 560 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 3: you could use these types of secured networks to actually 561 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 3: start calculations running, where in fact the person who was 562 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 3: hosting the bigger quantum computer would not know exactly what 563 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 3: sort of calculation you were running and what the data 564 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 3: was that you were sort of putting into it. So 565 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 3: we talk a lot in the UK about this concept 566 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 3: of blind quantum computing, and I think this is going 567 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 3: to be also very important in a scenario where we're 568 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 3: in the early days, we're likely to have a small 569 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: number of very big quantum computers, and you might not 570 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 3: want to sort of transmit data that is maybe private 571 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 3: to people in New Zealand to some big computer overseas. 572 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 3: But if you have these sort of secure communications networks, 573 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 3: you have the possibility of running calculations using that data, 574 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 3: but without actually revealing what that data is in any 575 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 3: way that someone who hosts that computer could read it. 576 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 3: And this is one of these sort of incredible things 577 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: that comes out of the unusual physics of a sort 578 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 3: of individual photons and so on. But so the value 579 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 3: of these sort of communications networks, when you combine them 580 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: with quantum computing, is even much greater than just the 581 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 3: sort of secured communications links themselves, and it is very exciting. 582 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: There are people in the dog Walls Center developing quantum memories. 583 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: Of course, there's a lot of connections to space in 584 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: New Zealand, which has been really exciting to see the 585 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 3: developments there. And so you could imagine New Zealand setting 586 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: up base stations for international quantum communications networks, and I 587 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 3: think that type of thing would be would be very exciting. 588 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: And I think all of these sort of pieces of 589 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 3: the sort of quantum technologies puzzle are going to come 590 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 3: together in a very useful way. And what we really 591 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 3: need to do is just continue to make sure that 592 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 3: we're supporting research that's going to see these technologies properly 593 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 3: developed and come to fruition, and that we're engaging industry 594 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 3: and people really working in the application areas to understand 595 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 3: how this can transform their sectors and be prepared for 596 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 3: the changes that will bring over the next few decades. 597 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: And just finally, Andrew, the issue that probably gets the 598 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: most attention in the media is the quantum encryption or 599 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: the quantum technology is potentially breaking encryption. How worried should 600 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: we be about this? And when I talk to vendors 601 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: like IBM who tell me, oh, we've created a quantum 602 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: safe mainframe for our banking customers, so we're already cracking 603 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: that issue, is there factual basis to that you are 604 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: there quantum safe systems? 605 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,239 Speaker 3: Now, we're probably at least a decade away still from 606 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 3: really being able to to break the sorts of RSA 607 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 3: encryption that you would use to talk to your bank 608 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 3: over the Internet or things like that. And this is really, 609 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 3: I guess, at the moment, a lower bound because these 610 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 3: are still very difficult calculations even if you have a 611 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 3: quantum computer, and so that's not going to be widespread 612 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 3: for a lot longer than that. And at the moment, 613 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 3: what's going on internationally is two things. So obviously you 614 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 3: mentioned quantum communications networks, which are secure a different way 615 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 3: of securing information, and some people are actually some banks 616 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 3: now have actually quantum communications links between their data centers. Yes, 617 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 3: so this is something that's been been trialed and implemented 618 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 3: by a number of people internationally. So indeed that's going on. 619 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 3: The other thing that's been developed is a lot of 620 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,479 Speaker 3: work in the cryptography community on what they call post 621 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 3: quantum encryption, and basically what's happening there is people are 622 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 3: finding different mathematical ways to encrypt information that at the 623 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 3: moment we don't know how to break with quantum can computers. 624 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 3: And so I think that what you're going to see 625 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,399 Speaker 3: is that before quantum computers get to the point where 626 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 3: they can really break the existing codes, there are going 627 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 3: to be ways both based on quantum communications networks and 628 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 3: based on sort of changes in classical encryption that we'll 629 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 3: we'll make sure that you know, you can talk to 630 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 3: your bank perfectly safely. 631 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: Well, it's a fascinating feel hard for a lot of 632 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: us to get our heads around, but there's obviously going. 633 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 4: To be incredibly important and. 634 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: Great to see that not only do we have areas 635 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: of expertise here, but does that openness to collaborate with 636 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: the UK and other researchers around the world. So good 637 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: luck with what you're working on in the UK, and 638 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on the Business of Tech. 639 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to talk 640 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 3: to you. 641 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: So that's it for this episode of the Business of Tech. 642 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: A big thanks to Professor Andrew Daily for helping cut 643 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: through the jargon and explaining where quantum computing is really headed. 644 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: Quantum it's pretty clear, isn't arriving overnight, but advances in 645 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: things like error correction, sensing and communications mean it's moving fast. 646 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: Actually it's accelerating. 647 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: The first applications are likely in material science, chemistry and 648 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: secure communications and think about things like you know, designing 649 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: new batteries, catalysts, drug development, fluid dynamics. It's already playing 650 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: a role in some of those areas. The countries that 651 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: harness their expertise now will shape the future. I was 652 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: in Australia this week talking to quantum computing experts, they're 653 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: right up there in terms of expertise and investment. Australia 654 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: is already spinning off quantum companies and one side Quantum 655 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: has attracted a billion dollars in federal and state funding 656 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: and is now a multi billion dollar enterprise, so they're 657 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: doing it across the ditch. We've got some unique strengths 658 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: and opportunities in the global quantum ecosystem too. We're not 659 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: building quantum computers here, but we have critical expertise to 660 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: contribute in the likes of photonics and optical systems from 661 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: Dodd Wall Center, cryogenic electronics and superconductors from Robinson Research Institute, 662 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: material signs from McDiarmid Institute. So we definitely have something 663 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: to add here and a strong heritage in quantum optics 664 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: dating back to Dan Walls and Crispin Gardner at Waikato University. 665 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed that. 666 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: As always, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how 667 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: New Zealand should approach quantum, whether through a national strategy, 668 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: industry collaboration, all of the above. Drop me a note 669 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: via LinkedIn x or email me Peter at Petergriffin dot 670 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: co dot nz. You can subscribe, like, and share the 671 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio or in your favorite podcast app. Tune 672 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: in again next week when we dig into another area 673 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: of technology reshaping our world. 674 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: Catch you in and thanks for listening.