1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: With us as Nichola Willis the Finance Minister. Evening, Nikola, 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: good evening here then some research for us. 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 2: I have been doing a bit of detective work. You'll 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: recall you accused me of being the MP in Jacinda's 5 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: book who outrageously heckled her, and I've had it confirmed 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 2: that it was in fact, Amy Adams. She has confirmed 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 2: that herself, and I think it's fair to say she 8 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: doesn't regret it at all. The only thing that she 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 2: regrets is the fact that she was described as having 10 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 2: a private school voice. She's very proud of having attended 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: a large, public, co ed school. 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: Oh okay, So, so Amy said, it's okay for you 13 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: to out her absolutely. 14 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 2: I said, well, I think Heather would like to know this. 15 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 2: Are you okay with me sharing with the public, And 16 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: she said, no, I'm not ashamed at all. In fact, 17 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 2: I think heckling someone on your first term is not 18 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: to be ashamed of. 19 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: No, totally, And I mean in the end, heckling Cinda 20 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: is actually about age of honor. But what do you 21 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: think That. 22 00:00:58,160 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: Was the exact phrase she used. 23 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: Amy is nothing if not hard as nails to this day. 24 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: What do you think about her? Accent. I mean you're 25 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: not a good judge because you don't think that you've 26 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: got a private school accent. I think you do well. 27 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: I think it's important in a job where you publicly 28 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: are communicating that you make yourself well understood and you 29 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: enunciate your words well. But then I also recall John 30 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 2: Key was a brilliant Prime minister and man, oh man, 31 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: did he mash his words from time? 32 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: He made a lot of them up, didn't he? He 33 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: really didn't thank you? Thank you for doing that. Because 34 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: if there's nothing I love a fact and I love 35 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 1: clarifying the fact. And I shall write that in the 36 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: book that one Amy Adams. Now, what is going on 37 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: with the surcharge band, because I tell you what, I'm 38 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: getting a lot of texts from small business owner who 39 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: are pretty upset about it. 40 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: Well, look there's two things. First, last week, the Commerce 41 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: Commission came out with her ruling that said that they're 42 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: going to regulate down the chargers that retailers have to 43 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: pay merchants. So these are the interchange fees to Master 44 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: Car and Visa. So that is worth about ninety million 45 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: dollars worth of savings to retailers. It averages about five 46 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: hundred dollars a week for a small business, so very significant. 47 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: Then the second thing becomes, how do you make sure 48 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: that that overall reduction and cost is actually passed through 49 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: to the shopper and they're not just charged surcharges that 50 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: no longer reflect the actual cost to retailers. So rather 51 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: than coming up with a complicated formula, we've just said, look, 52 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: no more charges like that for MasterCard and Visa. And 53 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: if retailers do think they still have some costs, then 54 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: they need to reflect those in the same way they 55 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: do the cost of electricity, the cost of rent, the 56 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: cost of rates, all of that stuff. 57 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: So the charges that we're talking about in total, the 58 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: merchant fees, how much do you reckon retailers are getting 59 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 1: charged in merchant fees every year? 60 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know that, and to the extent that 61 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: I would, it's commercially sensitive. 62 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: It's billions overall. It's some billions in billions, right, because 63 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: the interchange fee, which is just a component, is one billion, 64 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: multiple billions. So what do you think, Nicle, you know 65 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: how this works, what do you think is going to happen? 66 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: The retailers can't pass it on to us now transparently 67 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: in a search charge. They're going to build it into 68 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: their prices. We're all going to pay this now, aren't we. 69 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: Well I would reverse it and say, actually, it is 70 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: now going to be transparent because instead of it giving 71 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: you a little spike when you get to the counter 72 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: and you went factoring that in when you. 73 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: Don't have the power you wanted to buy the post card. 74 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: Well not everyone has that choice, and it's actually a 75 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: bit of. 76 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: A sometime postcard that has a credit card. 77 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: Well, there are a range of different rates that are 78 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: charged from store to store, and I would love to 79 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: meet the New Zealander who's never got stick a shock 80 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: when they went to pay and ended up with a 81 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: big surcharge when they did that. This is about transparent 82 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: fear pricing. So the price that you see on the 83 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: tag is the price you pay. 84 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: If it truly is, then why didn't you guys deal 85 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: to Air New Zealand and ticket Master, who are frankly 86 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: the most egregious. 87 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: Well are you talking about online payment. 88 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: So when you go and book yourself. I tried today 89 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: to see what is the New Zealand charging if I 90 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: book a couple of flights and it was a six 91 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: dollar fee. Laura the producer went to go look at 92 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: the bank's heart and she got charged eight dollars by 93 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: ticket Master. Almost she didn't go through with it in 94 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: the end because of that. She was going to get 95 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: charged eight dollars by ticket Master. So why didn't you 96 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: guys sort that out? 97 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: Well? I understand that the fees for that that retailers 98 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 2: pay or sellers of services in this Casey and New 99 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 2: Zealand are a lot higher because it's a much more 100 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: complicated system, because they need to be able to do refunds, 101 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 2: they need to protect against fraud, online scams and the like. 102 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: So there is a genuinely much higher cost that they 103 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: have to bear for those online transactions. 104 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: You know that and show you guys that stuff. 105 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: Well, that was that was reflected in the commers decisions last. 106 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: But if you force a dairy to absorb all of 107 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: those merchant fees, and why can't you force you know, 108 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: ticket Masters, which is a global company to absorb the 109 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: handling fee. 110 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: Well, a couple of things there. First, it's because it 111 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: is genuinely a lot more expensive for them to do 112 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: those online transactions. The second thing is we remain quite 113 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 2: hopeful that fintech companies will be coming up with better 114 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: solutions in that online space, and there's now going to 115 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: be room for them to compete there. 116 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: Hey listen, Okay, So we have got some debate in 117 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: the numbers at the moment about how many public servants 118 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: you've actually managed to cut since coming into government. What 119 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: is it? Is it added one hundred and twenty one 120 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: or is it cut nine hundred and thirty four. 121 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 2: A cut about two thousand? Nikolai three another I saw. 122 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 1: No, that's only from the peak. That's the peak that 123 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: you reached when you guys were in there. If you 124 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: go from September just before the election, which is about 125 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,239 Speaker 1: sixty four thousand, you've only managed to cut nine hundred 126 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: and thirty four. Why what's going on? Well? 127 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,679 Speaker 2: Two things. The first is that this is the first 128 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: year since twenty sixteen that the number of policy, clerical 129 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: and admin staff has actually dropped, so we're very much 130 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 2: focused on those roles. At the same time, the number 131 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: of people hired by Corrections to lock up criminals has 132 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: increased many by hundreds, How many by hundreds? Hundreds? Well, 133 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: I'm advised that there are six hundred and forty five 134 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 2: more inspectors and regulators that there are hundreds more working 135 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: in our contact centers, around seven hundred and seventy seven, 136 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: So that's direct service delivery to New Zealanders. So what 137 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 2: you're seeing is those numbers are increasing to make sure 138 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: that we're delivering good public services to people. The same time, 139 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 2: we have made actual cuts to those back office rolls 140 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: as we said we would. And at the same time, 141 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: either let's not forget the last government was spending hundreds 142 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: of millions on consultants as well as having all of 143 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: those policy advisors, and we have reduced that bill significantly. 144 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: In fact, we've over shot our own target. 145 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: But I mean, this is a government that promised us 146 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: cuts off maybe as many as fifteen thousand public servants. 147 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: Can you see why people might be a bit disappointed? 148 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: Well, I certainly never made that promise, But you know 149 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: I am. I am kind of amused on one level, 150 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: which is that you get labor out there saying that 151 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: I've cut thousands and thousands of public servants, which just 152 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: sort of makes you think, well, if they get away 153 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: with that line and it's repeated at infinite and what 154 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: else are they telling you that mightily exaggerated at the 155 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: same time, what we are doing is focusing that we're 156 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: hiring more police, We're hiring more teachers, more corrections officers, 157 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: all of those frontline roles as we said we would. 158 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: But at the same time, as I said, first time 159 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: since twenty sixteen that a government has reduced the number 160 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: of policy advisors must. 161 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: Strikes me that this is the problem that you guys 162 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: have got, and this is becoming very much a pattern, 163 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: right that you you you go so hard on the 164 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: rhetoric and then cop all of the blowback for it, 165 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,559 Speaker 1: and then in fact nothing really changes. So you're wearing 166 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: all of the stuff for not changing anything, and you're 167 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: disappointing the people who think you're changing things, and then 168 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: you're disappointing the people when they find out they haven't changed. 169 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: You haven't changed. 170 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: Well, from my perspective sitting there and looking at budgets, 171 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 2: it's changed pretty fundamentally because the last government every budget 172 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: was having to fork out hundreds of millions of dollars 173 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: more for a ballooning public sector. We have started from 174 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: a very different position. We started by reducing its spend 175 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: and then each budget, rather than them coming to us 176 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: with all of their ideas. They only even get invited 177 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: into the budget process at our rests. So it's a 178 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: very different environment, I know. 179 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: But you know, you might be impressed, but it's really 180 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: hard to be impressed on the other side of the 181 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: say like this is incredibly disappointing. I think there's a 182 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: lot of disappointment over and over again. 183 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: Well, we have to make sure that we have the 184 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: resources in place to deliver our jobs, deliver our services, deliver, 185 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: deliver to New Zealanders, and we're ensuring that we do 186 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: while also continuing to put the hammer down, put the 187 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: pressure down on those back officels really quickly. 188 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: Barry Soper Reckins, You've got the big supermarket announcement in 189 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: about a couple of weeks. 190 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: Is that right, Well, the Prime Minister is confirmed we'll 191 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 2: be making an announcement this quarter, so that this quarter 192 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 2: ends at the end of August. 193 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: Oh okay, so six weeks all right, hate well five, 194 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, nicol I appreciated this. Nichola willis 195 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: the Finance Minister. For more from Heather Duplessy Ellen Drive 196 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,479 Speaker 1: listen live news talk s it be from four pm weekdays, 197 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.