1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: The NATO Defense Minister's meeting has been held in Brussels 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: amid ongoing global tensions the Middle East, Europe. Where isn't 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: it happening? Frankly? Earlier this week, China held military drills 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: that completely surrounded Taiwan, just a few weeks after the 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: hmnz Alte was sailed through the Taiwan straight. Ukraine's President 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: Zezelenski is set to be at the meeting today. Judith 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: Collins is our Defense Minister and she's with us live 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: from Brussels. Minister, Welcome to the show. Oh hi Ryan, 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: great to have you here. Minister, tell me I understand 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: you've been meeting with the US Secretory of Defense Lloyd Austin, 11 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: You've been meeting with the Secretary General of NATO. What 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: are you being told? What is the key thing New 13 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: Zealand needs to know about from your meetings? 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: So we've had a meeting as well of the all 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: of the defense ministers and what's called the IP four 16 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 2: and that's ourselves, Australia, Japan, and South Korea Republic of Korea. 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: We're all hearing the same thing that what happened in Europe, 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: what happens in Ukraine? Actually matters in the Indo Pacific 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: region and what happens in the end the Pacific is 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: being noted and matters to Europe as well as NATO generally. 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: So what we're hearing is everything's interconnected. I think many 22 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: of us know that, but it's being noted that the 23 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: world is quite a different place than it was a 24 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: few years ago. 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: Would do you think that NATO's an organization that could 26 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: ever expand furtherest South? 27 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: Well, no one's talking about that, and certainly on their rules, 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: anybody knew joining NATO would have to come from Europe, 29 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: and so I don't think that's the point. But the 30 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: fact is that the IP four has been invited. This 31 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: is our very first time as defense ministers for the 32 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: End of Pacific four to be invited to the NATO 33 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 2: discussions and be invited to NATO Defense Ministers meeting. What 34 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 2: I'm really hearing is because we always know New Zealm 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: knows that what happens in Europe's important to us, but 36 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: it's good to hear the Europeans and the members of NATO, 37 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: Canada and US, as well as Europeans and Turkey actually 38 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 2: saying it matters to them too. What happens in the 39 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: Pacific and the end of the Pacific region. 40 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: They's talk about with your with your Attorney General hat 41 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: On from a moment, just if I could, Minister, the 42 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: Solicitor General says that you need to think carefully about 43 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: a particular decision, decision where a person is mildly This 44 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: has obviously been an issue that's been bubbling away here 45 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. David Seymour's had something to say about it. 46 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: What do you have to say about it? 47 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: Well, I'm really clear on this. The law needs to 48 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 2: be blind as the people's ethnicity or who they are. 49 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: And I'm very much of the view that these are 50 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 2: these Solicitor General's prosecution guidelines. They're certainly not rules, they're guidelines. 51 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: But actually I did not write a forward to them, 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: as most attorneys have been the past, and I do 53 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: not agree that people should be treated differently based on 54 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: their ethnicity. It's simply not in my understanding that is 55 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: what we should have. We have the rule of law 56 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: that need that means that everyone is subject to the 57 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: same law. 58 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: Has the Solicited General, in your view, overstepped their independence. 59 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: Well, Sister General is independent in relation to individual cases, 60 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: but we've had it. Obviously, this is this is different 61 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 2: because of the way it's words. I think it has 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: led people to believe that mari or will be treated 63 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: differently when it comes to prosecution decisions. My view is 64 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 2: that all prosecution decisions should be carefully thought about because 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 2: it's not just about whether or not someone can be prosecuted. 66 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: It should they be prosecuted in those circumstances. And we 67 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: know that that's something that's that's standards. But based on 68 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: ethnesty No, yeah. 69 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: So will the solicit will anything change or is there 70 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: nothing actually you can do? 71 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: Well? There is, there's are the Sister generals. I think 72 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: that she is looking at the fact that there has 73 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: been an overwhelming backlash from the public, but that's something 74 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: that she needs to come to herself. I'm very clear 75 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: myself that the law must not discriminate based on ethnesty. 76 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: Sarma. The navigation records of the manamon Nue have apparently 77 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: been found by a British warship. Have you been briefed 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: on that and what else are they finding? 79 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 2: No, I've seen that there has been some very good 80 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: information has been found by the HMS TMMA which was 81 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 2: in the area and for the you know, obviously to 82 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: see what they could do to help. That will no 83 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: doubt be going through defense. It will be part of 84 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: the investigation, which is a court of inquiry set up 85 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: under the Armed Forces Discipline Act, so no doubt be 86 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 2: part of that. 87 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: Do you have any update on the size of any 88 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: oil leaks. 89 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's very little that we can say 90 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: about oil leaks in terms of not so much that 91 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: more diesel, and even then it seems to be relatively small. 92 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: There are a couple of leaks understand that have been 93 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: stopped and that the main work now is going on 94 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: to remove the containers, but also to see what else 95 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 2: can be done in terms of a removal of the 96 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 2: fuel that is remaining those big tanks. Certainly, everything I've 97 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: seen and been told is that although it's always very 98 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: concerning and we certainly don't want something happening and it's 99 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: a massive leak or anything like that, so far it's 100 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: not nearly as bad as we thought it might have 101 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: been at the start. 102 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: Just coming back to NATO for a second, and obviously 103 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: we're not a part of NATAP before, but bottomy Zelensky 104 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: has made it very clear that part of his victory 105 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: plan is being part of NATO is being a member 106 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: of NATO, and you can understand the reluctance from some 107 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: countries within it to that. But I mean, is that 108 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: what victory means for Ukraine. 109 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: I don't know, you'd have to ask him. My concern 110 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: is is that Ukraine has been illegally and immorally invaded 111 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: by Russia. It has caused immense misery to the people. 112 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 2: Ukraine did nothing to deserve that, and I'm just really 113 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: pleased that New Zealand has both the previous government and 114 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 2: ours stepped up and done what we can to assist Ukraine. 115 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: And I think it's you know, the international rules based 116 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: order is very important for smaller nations. We can't possibly 117 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: defend ourselves by ourselves and we need people to fit 118 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: their own borders. 119 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: Judith Collins, we really appreciate your time this morning thing. 120 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for joining us the Defense Minister 121 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: Judith Collins live in Brussels, NATO. For more from Early 122 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: edition with Ryan Bridge. Listen live to News Talks. It'd 123 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: be from five am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.