1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,973 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,693 --> 00:00:19,733 Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 4 00:00:19,773 --> 00:00:24,813 Speaker 1: the information, all the debate of the now, the Leyton 5 00:00:24,933 --> 00:00:27,653 Speaker 1: Smith podcast powered by news talks it B. 6 00:00:28,093 --> 00:00:31,853 Speaker 2: Welcome to podcasts two hundred and seventy two for February nineteen, 7 00:00:32,053 --> 00:00:35,693 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, two seven to two will set a 8 00:00:36,133 --> 00:00:39,733 Speaker 2: length record for the lateon Smith podcast. I believe I 9 00:00:39,773 --> 00:00:43,533 Speaker 2: haven't checked it, but I believe it does. We present 10 00:00:43,613 --> 00:00:47,693 Speaker 2: you with two interviews which, though unintended to share a 11 00:00:47,733 --> 00:00:50,253 Speaker 2: common theme, and that is the law and I guess 12 00:00:50,253 --> 00:00:53,893 Speaker 2: its application now. Apart from that, they both stand independently. 13 00:00:54,293 --> 00:00:58,133 Speaker 2: The second interview is with the American lawyer Michael Connett, 14 00:00:58,933 --> 00:01:03,373 Speaker 2: who succeeded in a case against the Environmental Protection Agency 15 00:01:03,453 --> 00:01:09,413 Speaker 2: in the United States, a very powerful organization, not so 16 00:01:09,533 --> 00:01:12,933 Speaker 2: much now after the change of government, but certainly it 17 00:01:12,973 --> 00:01:16,653 Speaker 2: has been for a long time. It was over fluoridation 18 00:01:16,813 --> 00:01:19,813 Speaker 2: of drinking water, and whether you care or not about 19 00:01:19,853 --> 00:01:22,693 Speaker 2: being forced to participate in that debate. It makes for 20 00:01:23,493 --> 00:01:27,893 Speaker 2: interesting listening. But first up Murial Newman from NZCPR, the 21 00:01:27,933 --> 00:01:31,213 Speaker 2: New Zealand seter for political research. Now, when you read 22 00:01:31,213 --> 00:01:35,733 Speaker 2: a headline parliamentary sovereignty hangs in the balance, it should 23 00:01:35,773 --> 00:01:38,813 Speaker 2: act as a magnet to anyone who has an engaging 24 00:01:38,893 --> 00:01:41,893 Speaker 2: mind and concern for their country. What I want to 25 00:01:41,893 --> 00:01:44,573 Speaker 2: read you a couple of quotes Apart from that, the 26 00:01:44,613 --> 00:01:49,053 Speaker 2: American people will never be able to regain democratic self 27 00:01:49,093 --> 00:01:55,733 Speaker 2: government and thus shape public policy until we curb activist judges. Now, 28 00:01:55,733 --> 00:01:59,133 Speaker 2: that was a quote from Edward mess Attorney General of 29 00:01:59,133 --> 00:02:02,653 Speaker 2: the United States under President Reagan. The second is from 30 00:02:02,813 --> 00:02:06,413 Speaker 2: retired Judge Anthony Willie, who we have great admiration for 31 00:02:06,453 --> 00:02:09,213 Speaker 2: on this podcast. And there's a couple of quotes from 32 00:02:10,253 --> 00:02:15,253 Speaker 2: the article by Jural Law. The concern is that our 33 00:02:15,293 --> 00:02:18,133 Speaker 2: superior courts now contain a number of judges who have 34 00:02:18,213 --> 00:02:21,533 Speaker 2: shown a ready acceptance of infusing the common law with 35 00:02:21,573 --> 00:02:24,653 Speaker 2: the notion of tea Kanger. In the Supreme Court, these 36 00:02:24,653 --> 00:02:28,733 Speaker 2: include the Chief Justice, Justice Glazebrook and Justice Williams x 37 00:02:28,853 --> 00:02:31,693 Speaker 2: y TAGI Tribunal. Added to which, in a number of 38 00:02:31,773 --> 00:02:35,253 Speaker 2: cases the silent majority on the Court has raised no 39 00:02:35,373 --> 00:02:39,333 Speaker 2: objection to the introduction of tea Kanger. Then, in the 40 00:02:39,373 --> 00:02:43,733 Speaker 2: next paragraph, it requires no conspiracy theorizing to see this 41 00:02:43,973 --> 00:02:46,573 Speaker 2: as part of the wider drive to dismantle a pillar 42 00:02:46,613 --> 00:02:50,693 Speaker 2: of our democracy and impose the pernicious adern Hapa pooor 43 00:02:50,813 --> 00:02:54,573 Speaker 2: construct in which a small group of MARI activists seek 44 00:02:54,733 --> 00:02:58,173 Speaker 2: to impose their wishes on the public, with the long 45 00:02:58,253 --> 00:03:00,933 Speaker 2: term goal of taking over the governance of New Zealand. 46 00:03:01,573 --> 00:03:03,493 Speaker 2: Now that doesn't bother you, I guess there's not much 47 00:03:03,533 --> 00:03:04,653 Speaker 2: that will. 48 00:03:05,213 --> 00:03:05,293 Speaker 3: Now. 49 00:03:05,413 --> 00:03:09,453 Speaker 2: Following Muriel Newman, we joined by Missus Producer for the 50 00:03:09,493 --> 00:03:12,813 Speaker 2: mail Room as always in its usual place, after which 51 00:03:12,973 --> 00:03:18,733 Speaker 2: Michael Collett and the subject of fluoridation and whether or 52 00:03:18,733 --> 00:03:20,893 Speaker 2: not it should be mandated, and that debate, of course 53 00:03:20,933 --> 00:03:23,213 Speaker 2: continues in this country, although some people are sick of it, 54 00:03:23,493 --> 00:03:27,173 Speaker 2: including including in part me. But it's the legal aspect 55 00:03:27,213 --> 00:03:30,693 Speaker 2: of it that caught my attention. So hang in there, 56 00:03:30,733 --> 00:03:32,973 Speaker 2: stay with it, and I think you'll get something out 57 00:03:32,973 --> 00:03:37,453 Speaker 2: of it. But in a moment Burial Newman Layton Smith. 58 00:03:37,933 --> 00:03:42,373 Speaker 2: Leverrix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. 59 00:03:42,573 --> 00:03:46,453 Speaker 2: Leverix relieves hay fever and skin allergies or itchy skin. 60 00:03:46,933 --> 00:03:51,253 Speaker 2: It's a dual action antihistamine and has a unique nasal 61 00:03:51,453 --> 00:03:56,093 Speaker 2: decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast relief, and it 62 00:03:56,173 --> 00:03:59,253 Speaker 2: works in under an hour and lasts for over twenty 63 00:03:59,293 --> 00:04:03,093 Speaker 2: four hours. Leverrix is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose, 64 00:04:03,413 --> 00:04:07,293 Speaker 2: deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Leverrix is an 65 00:04:07,333 --> 00:04:11,693 Speaker 2: antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. So next 66 00:04:11,693 --> 00:04:15,253 Speaker 2: time you're in need of an effective antihistamine, call into 67 00:04:15,293 --> 00:04:19,933 Speaker 2: the pharmacy and ask for leverickx L e v Rix 68 00:04:20,373 --> 00:04:23,773 Speaker 2: Leverix and always read the label, take us directed, and 69 00:04:23,893 --> 00:04:28,053 Speaker 2: if symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland 70 00:04:42,253 --> 00:04:46,253 Speaker 2: Burial Newman was he an MP for nine years, after 71 00:04:46,293 --> 00:04:50,053 Speaker 2: which she established nz CPR, the New Zealand Center for 72 00:04:50,133 --> 00:04:55,733 Speaker 2: Political Research, and it is arguably the best collector of 73 00:04:56,053 --> 00:04:59,533 Speaker 2: articles on current events that we have in New Zealand. 74 00:05:00,013 --> 00:05:03,213 Speaker 2: I say arguably because there are others. But if you're 75 00:05:03,253 --> 00:05:07,333 Speaker 2: looking for answers and commentary on things as they arise, 76 00:05:08,493 --> 00:05:11,173 Speaker 2: i'd suggest what I do often. I suggest that then 77 00:05:11,253 --> 00:05:14,893 Speaker 2: said CPR is very good, Muriel, it's great to have 78 00:05:14,933 --> 00:05:19,413 Speaker 2: you back on the podcast. Nine years. When did that finish? 79 00:05:19,453 --> 00:05:22,773 Speaker 4: It was two thousand and five late and it was 80 00:05:22,933 --> 00:05:27,453 Speaker 4: that election where ACT went down from having eight MPs 81 00:05:27,533 --> 00:05:31,493 Speaker 4: or nine MPs, sorry, to just having two. And so, 82 00:05:32,093 --> 00:05:35,813 Speaker 4: you know, election night we suddenly realized that it was 83 00:05:35,853 --> 00:05:38,653 Speaker 4: time to find a new focus, in a new direction. 84 00:05:38,893 --> 00:05:40,373 Speaker 2: Are you happy as what you've done? 85 00:05:41,013 --> 00:05:43,413 Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely, to be honest. 86 00:05:43,493 --> 00:05:46,573 Speaker 4: The one thing I loved right from the time I 87 00:05:46,653 --> 00:05:48,893 Speaker 4: got involved in politics was I used to write a 88 00:05:48,933 --> 00:05:53,493 Speaker 4: little newsletter to people that i'd met, and as it 89 00:05:53,893 --> 00:05:56,293 Speaker 4: went on throughout the years I was an MP, I'd 90 00:05:56,293 --> 00:05:59,453 Speaker 4: built it up to quite a big sort of mailing 91 00:05:59,493 --> 00:06:03,173 Speaker 4: list and I loved doing that, and so we had 92 00:06:03,173 --> 00:06:06,693 Speaker 4: this idea, I wonder if I could make that into 93 00:06:06,773 --> 00:06:09,773 Speaker 4: something and make it work. So that was the beginning 94 00:06:09,813 --> 00:06:11,973 Speaker 4: of the New Zealand Center for Political Research. 95 00:06:12,133 --> 00:06:14,653 Speaker 2: How many years since the first edition. 96 00:06:14,893 --> 00:06:18,413 Speaker 3: It'll be twenty years now, so yeah, it's getting on. 97 00:06:18,933 --> 00:06:24,213 Speaker 2: Is pretty impressive. And you are not funded by any 98 00:06:24,413 --> 00:06:25,693 Speaker 2: organizations as such. 99 00:06:26,373 --> 00:06:28,733 Speaker 3: No, No, we've funded by readers. 100 00:06:28,853 --> 00:06:32,213 Speaker 4: We've got probably the worst business model in the world. 101 00:06:32,373 --> 00:06:35,573 Speaker 4: We say, here's our stuff, it's all free, but if 102 00:06:35,573 --> 00:06:37,813 Speaker 4: you like what we do, would you consider giving us 103 00:06:37,813 --> 00:06:41,653 Speaker 4: a donation? And you know it works to some extent. 104 00:06:41,853 --> 00:06:46,093 Speaker 4: So yeah, it's been a wonderful experience because what I've 105 00:06:46,093 --> 00:06:49,293 Speaker 4: been able to do is use what I learned. We know, 106 00:06:49,413 --> 00:06:53,693 Speaker 4: as a member of Parliament, learned about the political process, 107 00:06:53,813 --> 00:06:58,693 Speaker 4: the parliamentary process and where to find stuff, and I've 108 00:06:58,693 --> 00:07:03,453 Speaker 4: been able to use that to continue to inform readers 109 00:07:03,733 --> 00:07:07,493 Speaker 4: and you know, debate the issues, and so it's been 110 00:07:07,773 --> 00:07:11,213 Speaker 4: a sort of carry on really and yeah, I've loved 111 00:07:11,253 --> 00:07:14,533 Speaker 4: what I love what I do. It's just very frustrating 112 00:07:15,093 --> 00:07:18,373 Speaker 4: that you don't get some of the changes that you 113 00:07:18,453 --> 00:07:21,653 Speaker 4: know are necessary to happen in a timely manner. And so, 114 00:07:22,373 --> 00:07:25,133 Speaker 4: you know, we beat our head against a brick wall sometimes, 115 00:07:25,133 --> 00:07:28,773 Speaker 4: but then sometimes things happen quite quickly. So that's the 116 00:07:28,813 --> 00:07:31,893 Speaker 4: thing about politics, it's always changing. Well, let me ask 117 00:07:31,933 --> 00:07:35,613 Speaker 4: you a simple question. Since the Coalition came in, how 118 00:07:35,613 --> 00:07:41,613 Speaker 4: would you rate them out of ten ambition I'd probably 119 00:07:41,653 --> 00:07:47,013 Speaker 4: give them an eight, but delivery probably a three or four. 120 00:07:47,453 --> 00:07:51,053 Speaker 4: And I think that's been the frustrating and I think 121 00:07:51,093 --> 00:07:54,453 Speaker 4: the disappointing thing that a lot of the promises that 122 00:07:54,493 --> 00:07:57,813 Speaker 4: were made that got everybody so excited and so pleased 123 00:07:57,853 --> 00:08:01,373 Speaker 4: to have voted for the coalition parties at the last election. 124 00:08:01,773 --> 00:08:03,173 Speaker 3: Are now falling flat. 125 00:08:03,653 --> 00:08:06,133 Speaker 4: And the reason, of course, is that they're in a 126 00:08:06,173 --> 00:08:10,893 Speaker 4: hostile environment that trying to change things for the better 127 00:08:11,453 --> 00:08:14,093 Speaker 4: with people who don't want that to happen and are 128 00:08:14,093 --> 00:08:16,933 Speaker 4: trying to drag us back to the days of the 129 00:08:17,053 --> 00:08:18,133 Speaker 4: Ardern administration. 130 00:08:18,933 --> 00:08:20,933 Speaker 2: Who is leading that? Do you think? 131 00:08:22,133 --> 00:08:26,093 Speaker 4: Look, I think what's happened if you consider this fact 132 00:08:26,293 --> 00:08:30,973 Speaker 4: that you know there's probably what twenty thousand more people 133 00:08:31,493 --> 00:08:35,973 Speaker 4: employed in the public service now from when National was 134 00:08:36,053 --> 00:08:39,893 Speaker 4: last in government in twenty seventeen. A lot of those 135 00:08:39,973 --> 00:08:45,053 Speaker 4: people would be activists who are pushing particular viewpoints, and 136 00:08:45,173 --> 00:08:49,293 Speaker 4: the Coalition has done a pretty dismal job at reducing 137 00:08:49,333 --> 00:08:55,253 Speaker 4: that workforce down. A lot of the so called reduction 138 00:08:55,333 --> 00:09:00,053 Speaker 4: in numbers vacancies, you know, the actual number of people 139 00:09:00,093 --> 00:09:04,693 Speaker 4: who've had their marching orders is really quite low, and 140 00:09:04,773 --> 00:09:07,173 Speaker 4: so I think there's a lot of people in there 141 00:09:07,253 --> 00:09:11,453 Speaker 4: who've got activists intentions. There's no way they want to 142 00:09:11,573 --> 00:09:15,453 Speaker 4: let go the agenda that was being pushed by the 143 00:09:15,533 --> 00:09:19,413 Speaker 4: last government. And that's what I think the Coalition hasn't 144 00:09:19,453 --> 00:09:23,893 Speaker 4: factored into all their directives and everything else. They're not 145 00:09:24,093 --> 00:09:27,053 Speaker 4: doing enough follow up and that's the problem. So they 146 00:09:27,133 --> 00:09:30,013 Speaker 4: say you've got to use English, and they've got people 147 00:09:30,093 --> 00:09:33,653 Speaker 4: in their own offices who are using mari, you know 148 00:09:33,693 --> 00:09:36,293 Speaker 4: what I mean. So it's some of it is really simple, 149 00:09:36,493 --> 00:09:39,053 Speaker 4: and it's happening under their noses. But of course they've 150 00:09:39,093 --> 00:09:42,653 Speaker 4: got their hands full on many of the bigger things. 151 00:09:44,333 --> 00:09:46,933 Speaker 2: You know. There's one thing that people have said to 152 00:09:46,973 --> 00:09:50,013 Speaker 2: me as much, if not more than anything else over 153 00:09:50,013 --> 00:09:53,613 Speaker 2: the last month or so. We need our own Trump. 154 00:09:54,733 --> 00:09:56,613 Speaker 2: Ye what do you think? 155 00:09:57,173 --> 00:09:57,533 Speaker 3: Oh? 156 00:09:57,573 --> 00:10:03,733 Speaker 4: Look, absolutely, you need somebody who will get up and 157 00:10:03,893 --> 00:10:07,133 Speaker 4: say the right things, and you know deep down in 158 00:10:07,173 --> 00:10:10,773 Speaker 4: your heart that man alive is he or she going 159 00:10:10,813 --> 00:10:11,693 Speaker 4: to follow them through? 160 00:10:12,173 --> 00:10:13,573 Speaker 3: And that's what we don't have. 161 00:10:13,733 --> 00:10:17,173 Speaker 4: We have people who talk the talk, and that makes 162 00:10:17,253 --> 00:10:21,893 Speaker 4: us really happy because we have then many expectations of 163 00:10:21,893 --> 00:10:25,493 Speaker 4: what's to follow. And I think it's this deep disappointment 164 00:10:25,733 --> 00:10:28,933 Speaker 4: that the follow up doesn't happen. And yes, if you 165 00:10:28,973 --> 00:10:32,053 Speaker 4: can find a Trump for us, latent, let us know, 166 00:10:32,413 --> 00:10:34,173 Speaker 4: because we desperately need one. 167 00:10:34,293 --> 00:10:37,893 Speaker 2: Do you think that what you just said is reflected 168 00:10:37,933 --> 00:10:42,533 Speaker 2: by the or vice versa, by the current polling that 169 00:10:42,773 --> 00:10:48,533 Speaker 2: suggests that the Left coalition would have a greater chance 170 00:10:48,573 --> 00:10:50,493 Speaker 2: of taking the Treasury ventures. 171 00:10:51,013 --> 00:10:51,773 Speaker 3: I think it is. 172 00:10:51,893 --> 00:10:57,933 Speaker 4: I think it's this disillusionment and disappointment. And you've got 173 00:10:57,933 --> 00:11:03,693 Speaker 4: to remember that most elections have decided by that swing voter. 174 00:11:04,653 --> 00:11:07,533 Speaker 4: These are people who are not really aligned to a 175 00:11:07,573 --> 00:11:12,693 Speaker 4: particular political point of view, but they go where they 176 00:11:12,813 --> 00:11:16,013 Speaker 4: think the promises are going to deliver a better New Zealand. 177 00:11:16,653 --> 00:11:20,773 Speaker 4: And I think that probably number one, you know, the 178 00:11:20,813 --> 00:11:24,773 Speaker 4: Prime Minister goes on about the economy, Well, that undoubtedly 179 00:11:24,893 --> 00:11:28,013 Speaker 4: is having a big effect. So the promises of a 180 00:11:28,053 --> 00:11:32,293 Speaker 4: stronger economy haven't come to fruition yet. And then the 181 00:11:32,333 --> 00:11:35,293 Speaker 4: second thing that I think was driving the election was 182 00:11:35,293 --> 00:11:39,253 Speaker 4: the issue of race. In my mind, it's a sleeper issue. 183 00:11:39,293 --> 00:11:42,653 Speaker 4: People don't like talking about it, but man alive, does 184 00:11:42,653 --> 00:11:46,573 Speaker 4: it influence them. And what they've seen is that the 185 00:11:46,573 --> 00:11:51,093 Speaker 4: promises that that would be sorted haven't come to fruition 186 00:11:51,253 --> 00:11:54,213 Speaker 4: and so a lot of those people are probably drifting 187 00:11:54,293 --> 00:11:55,613 Speaker 4: back to labor. 188 00:11:57,253 --> 00:12:00,773 Speaker 2: What to quote you some headlines for reasons that'll be obvious. 189 00:12:01,053 --> 00:12:04,933 Speaker 2: Supreme Court's rush to judgment is a constitutional wake up call, 190 00:12:05,373 --> 00:12:09,293 Speaker 2: doctor Oliver Hartwich wrote that was written by Roger Partridge. 191 00:12:09,293 --> 00:12:13,933 Speaker 2: By the way Oliver Hartwich, America's Pacific paradox leaves the 192 00:12:13,973 --> 00:12:17,573 Speaker 2: door open to China. This one is from Radio New 193 00:12:17,653 --> 00:12:20,893 Speaker 2: Zealand actually, and it's very rare that I'd be quoting 194 00:12:20,893 --> 00:12:25,013 Speaker 2: something of theirs. Cook Island signs China deal at center 195 00:12:25,053 --> 00:12:29,053 Speaker 2: of diplomatic row with New Zealand and the New Zealand Herald. 196 00:12:29,093 --> 00:12:33,933 Speaker 2: New Zealand Government concerns regarding Cook Island's China agreements. And 197 00:12:34,013 --> 00:12:39,053 Speaker 2: one more parliamentary sovereignty hangs in the balance, and that 198 00:12:40,213 --> 00:12:43,813 Speaker 2: was ausered by you. So let's start with that, shall 199 00:12:43,853 --> 00:12:48,333 Speaker 2: we Parliamentary sovereignty hangs in the balance. Give us a 200 00:12:48,373 --> 00:12:49,253 Speaker 2: brief outline. 201 00:12:49,653 --> 00:12:55,533 Speaker 4: We've got a situation now where China is coming closer 202 00:12:55,573 --> 00:12:59,573 Speaker 4: to New Zealand the Cook Islands. There are a Pacific 203 00:13:00,133 --> 00:13:04,173 Speaker 4: New Zealand realm nation, so that part of our our 204 00:13:04,293 --> 00:13:08,173 Speaker 4: sort of grouping, if you like. And now a dealer 205 00:13:08,173 --> 00:13:11,213 Speaker 4: is being done. That's going to bring their influence essentially 206 00:13:11,373 --> 00:13:14,493 Speaker 4: onto our doorstep. So if you park that and then 207 00:13:14,533 --> 00:13:18,413 Speaker 4: you look at what's happening in New Zealand politics, we 208 00:13:18,533 --> 00:13:22,013 Speaker 4: had the coalition promising to fix. 209 00:13:22,013 --> 00:13:24,053 Speaker 3: The Marine and Coastal Area Act. 210 00:13:24,893 --> 00:13:29,733 Speaker 4: For people who've forgotten what that involves, this is the 211 00:13:29,933 --> 00:13:34,253 Speaker 4: act that allows tribal groups to gain control of New 212 00:13:34,333 --> 00:13:39,933 Speaker 4: Zealand's coastline and territorial Sea. When the Act was devised 213 00:13:40,013 --> 00:13:44,253 Speaker 4: by National back in two thousand and eleven ten eleven, 214 00:13:44,933 --> 00:13:48,493 Speaker 4: it was designed in such a way that only a 215 00:13:48,693 --> 00:13:53,253 Speaker 4: minority of areas of the coastline would become owned in 216 00:13:53,333 --> 00:13:58,653 Speaker 4: quote marks by tribal interests. Most of it would not qualify. 217 00:13:59,213 --> 00:14:03,213 Speaker 4: But what the courts have done is they've misinterpreted the 218 00:14:03,293 --> 00:14:07,893 Speaker 4: law or reinterpreted it to deliver the opposite. And the 219 00:14:07,973 --> 00:14:12,133 Speaker 4: culprit here is the word teacunger. They brought teacunger into 220 00:14:12,173 --> 00:14:16,573 Speaker 4: the original Act that has now been reinterpreted to mean 221 00:14:16,733 --> 00:14:19,653 Speaker 4: way more than it was ever intended. And so the 222 00:14:19,733 --> 00:14:22,973 Speaker 4: result is now that virtually all of the claims and 223 00:14:23,013 --> 00:14:26,293 Speaker 4: there's about almost six hundred of them to the coast 224 00:14:26,533 --> 00:14:32,333 Speaker 4: the entire coastline stand to be awarded to tribal interests 225 00:14:32,853 --> 00:14:36,733 Speaker 4: unless the government honors their election pledged to fix the law. 226 00:14:37,373 --> 00:14:40,373 Speaker 4: Now before Christmas, they had a bill in front of 227 00:14:40,453 --> 00:14:43,733 Speaker 4: Parliament which was to do that. It was to tighten 228 00:14:43,853 --> 00:14:48,453 Speaker 4: up the requirements that would allow for a customery marine title, 229 00:14:49,013 --> 00:14:52,173 Speaker 4: and that bill was ready to go into law in 230 00:14:52,373 --> 00:14:58,013 Speaker 4: late December when the Supreme Court issued a judgment they 231 00:14:58,133 --> 00:15:01,413 Speaker 4: rushed it through. They split their judgment, which they never do. 232 00:15:02,093 --> 00:15:07,813 Speaker 4: They rushed through the first bit to essentially emballish Tea 233 00:15:07,893 --> 00:15:12,013 Speaker 4: Hunger and say that it has to override any other 234 00:15:12,093 --> 00:15:15,813 Speaker 4: influence in making the law about the foreshore and seabed. 235 00:15:16,613 --> 00:15:20,933 Speaker 4: And it was a purely political move. It was judicial 236 00:15:20,973 --> 00:15:25,173 Speaker 4: activism on steroids. And what that did is it forced 237 00:15:25,253 --> 00:15:29,213 Speaker 4: our government or caused our government to delay the law change. 238 00:15:29,333 --> 00:15:30,613 Speaker 3: And so now it's. 239 00:15:30,493 --> 00:15:36,613 Speaker 4: Been the Electoral Commission, sorry, the Law Commission is meant 240 00:15:36,613 --> 00:15:40,253 Speaker 4: to be reviewing it and providing advice to the government 241 00:15:40,973 --> 00:15:45,453 Speaker 4: and it's on hold. And meanwhile China is getting closer. 242 00:15:45,613 --> 00:15:50,933 Speaker 4: And if the law is not passed as the coalition promised, 243 00:15:51,453 --> 00:15:54,493 Speaker 4: then what will happen. Number one is that the Supreme 244 00:15:54,613 --> 00:15:58,773 Speaker 4: Court will have determined the law. This is the activist 245 00:15:58,853 --> 00:16:03,613 Speaker 4: Supreme Court. And number two, virtually the entire coastline will 246 00:16:03,653 --> 00:16:07,773 Speaker 4: go to Mari interests, tribal interests, and that will give 247 00:16:07,813 --> 00:16:12,893 Speaker 4: them own ship of all of New Zealand's seabed and 248 00:16:13,013 --> 00:16:16,493 Speaker 4: all the mineral wealth within it, apart from the nationalized 249 00:16:16,933 --> 00:16:22,493 Speaker 4: minerals of petroleum, silver, gold, platonium and so on. And 250 00:16:22,973 --> 00:16:26,493 Speaker 4: they would then be able to do deals with China 251 00:16:26,573 --> 00:16:30,653 Speaker 4: to come into our area and have our seabed minerals 252 00:16:30,653 --> 00:16:33,733 Speaker 4: as well, which is what they want from the Cook Islands. 253 00:16:33,773 --> 00:16:35,453 Speaker 2: What is it about seabed minerals. 254 00:16:37,013 --> 00:16:41,213 Speaker 4: These are the minerals that are used in electronics and 255 00:16:41,573 --> 00:16:46,413 Speaker 4: of course in the batteries for electric cars, so that 256 00:16:46,573 --> 00:16:52,653 Speaker 4: whole renewable energy or solar and wind energy uses these 257 00:16:52,853 --> 00:17:00,013 Speaker 4: minerals cobalt, nickel, academium, magnesium and rare earths, and they 258 00:17:00,013 --> 00:17:01,333 Speaker 4: are all found in. 259 00:17:02,013 --> 00:17:03,813 Speaker 3: Huge quantities on the seabed. 260 00:17:04,333 --> 00:17:09,453 Speaker 4: And what the Chinese want to maintain their global dominance 261 00:17:09,493 --> 00:17:13,133 Speaker 4: in this market is to find sources of more of 262 00:17:13,133 --> 00:17:16,533 Speaker 4: these minerals. And they're there in our seabed and at 263 00:17:16,533 --> 00:17:20,493 Speaker 4: the moment they're unprotected. And as I say, if the 264 00:17:20,573 --> 00:17:24,933 Speaker 4: tribal groups gain control of the coast, they will own 265 00:17:25,093 --> 00:17:27,173 Speaker 4: those minerals and be able to sell them. 266 00:17:27,533 --> 00:17:29,773 Speaker 2: And you're suggesting that the Cook Islands and the deal 267 00:17:29,813 --> 00:17:31,933 Speaker 2: that they've done is a forerunner. 268 00:17:32,453 --> 00:17:36,293 Speaker 4: It's I mean, who knows what their strategic content is. 269 00:17:37,613 --> 00:17:41,493 Speaker 4: But the reality is that of all countries in the world, 270 00:17:42,053 --> 00:17:45,893 Speaker 4: New Zealand is on the cusp of giving away control 271 00:17:46,333 --> 00:17:52,173 Speaker 4: of our coast and territorial sea to private interests. It's 272 00:17:52,453 --> 00:17:57,453 Speaker 4: unbelievable what's happening. It is so wrong. What the government 273 00:17:57,453 --> 00:18:00,093 Speaker 4: should have done, if it had the courage, was actually 274 00:18:00,133 --> 00:18:03,773 Speaker 4: to repeal the Marine and Coastal Area Act and bring 275 00:18:03,853 --> 00:18:06,093 Speaker 4: back the Foreshore and Sea Bed Act where it all 276 00:18:06,613 --> 00:18:09,653 Speaker 4: was owned by the Crown on behind of all New Zealanders. 277 00:18:10,253 --> 00:18:12,893 Speaker 3: That's the safe thing to do to protect a nation. 278 00:18:13,693 --> 00:18:17,893 Speaker 4: And instead we've got this ridiculous situation where private groups 279 00:18:18,373 --> 00:18:20,653 Speaker 4: can control your territorial. 280 00:18:20,133 --> 00:18:23,253 Speaker 3: See, I mean, how mad is that? So? 281 00:18:23,453 --> 00:18:26,853 Speaker 4: Anyway, one of the things coming out of this is 282 00:18:26,893 --> 00:18:33,853 Speaker 4: our realization that we have non we have nationalized minerals. 283 00:18:33,933 --> 00:18:37,053 Speaker 4: I read out you know, listed them before gold and 284 00:18:37,093 --> 00:18:42,973 Speaker 4: silver and petroleum. That law needs to be extended to 285 00:18:43,333 --> 00:18:47,693 Speaker 4: all of these new minerals which are hugely important to 286 00:18:47,773 --> 00:18:49,693 Speaker 4: the future development of the world. 287 00:18:49,773 --> 00:18:53,413 Speaker 2: All right, stop there, these stop stop there. If that's 288 00:18:53,453 --> 00:18:56,893 Speaker 2: the case, why is it not being recognized by our 289 00:18:56,973 --> 00:18:59,933 Speaker 2: government and why aren't they doing what you're suggesting, which 290 00:18:59,973 --> 00:19:01,773 Speaker 2: is the only sensible thing to do. 291 00:19:02,693 --> 00:19:06,413 Speaker 4: Look, I think number one, nobody's put too and two together. 292 00:19:06,773 --> 00:19:12,653 Speaker 4: Nobody has realized China and the Cook Islands essentially in 293 00:19:12,693 --> 00:19:14,093 Speaker 4: our Pacific. 294 00:19:13,653 --> 00:19:15,293 Speaker 3: Realm waters. 295 00:19:16,453 --> 00:19:22,933 Speaker 4: Tribal groups about to gain control of the seabed and 296 00:19:23,733 --> 00:19:27,013 Speaker 4: obviously the coastline, because that's going to be incremental. Right, 297 00:19:27,093 --> 00:19:29,573 Speaker 4: Each group has got to go through a court process. 298 00:19:29,693 --> 00:19:33,013 Speaker 4: But the courts are now starting to move on all that. 299 00:19:33,293 --> 00:19:35,973 Speaker 4: They put it all on hold when the coalition promised 300 00:19:35,973 --> 00:19:38,413 Speaker 4: the law change, and now what's happening. 301 00:19:38,493 --> 00:19:39,813 Speaker 3: The judges are saying, oh, there. 302 00:19:39,773 --> 00:19:42,573 Speaker 4: Might not be a law change, and therefore we're going 303 00:19:42,613 --> 00:19:46,893 Speaker 4: to start progressing these cases. Now. That will be a 304 00:19:46,933 --> 00:19:49,613 Speaker 4: disaster for the country, I can tell you. But it'll 305 00:19:49,613 --> 00:19:52,893 Speaker 4: take a while before people really realize what's happening. 306 00:19:52,733 --> 00:19:55,053 Speaker 3: And that'll be too late, and then it'll be wait, 307 00:19:55,053 --> 00:19:55,493 Speaker 3: too late. 308 00:19:56,213 --> 00:20:02,333 Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, what was the in that case before Christmas 309 00:20:02,493 --> 00:20:04,813 Speaker 2: with a Supreme Court? What were the numbers? Do you know. 310 00:20:06,573 --> 00:20:07,253 Speaker 3: The case? 311 00:20:08,413 --> 00:20:11,693 Speaker 2: These things are complicated, right, I mean the voting numbers 312 00:20:12,413 --> 00:20:12,933 Speaker 2: of the court. 313 00:20:13,093 --> 00:20:17,613 Speaker 4: Oh, the court was unanimous. So what it was was 314 00:20:17,813 --> 00:20:22,093 Speaker 4: the first case and the foreshore and sea bed law change, right, 315 00:20:22,173 --> 00:20:25,213 Speaker 4: the Marine and Coastal Area Act. The first case was 316 00:20:25,293 --> 00:20:28,453 Speaker 4: heard by a judge who found in favor of the 317 00:20:28,453 --> 00:20:32,173 Speaker 4: tribal groups. We were involved in that case through another group, 318 00:20:32,653 --> 00:20:35,973 Speaker 4: and so we appealed to the Court of Appeal, as 319 00:20:36,093 --> 00:20:39,533 Speaker 4: did all the people who'd gained title and the ones 320 00:20:39,573 --> 00:20:44,133 Speaker 4: who hadn't. All of them wanted to argue, you know, 321 00:20:44,173 --> 00:20:46,533 Speaker 4: how do you how much do you get? They wanted 322 00:20:46,573 --> 00:20:49,733 Speaker 4: to argue about who got more than someone else, So 323 00:20:49,853 --> 00:20:51,653 Speaker 4: all the tribal groups were in there as well. 324 00:20:52,173 --> 00:20:54,533 Speaker 3: The Court of Appeal rejected. 325 00:20:53,973 --> 00:20:57,653 Speaker 4: Our claims that you know, nobody should have gained title, 326 00:20:58,453 --> 00:21:02,573 Speaker 4: and then that case was appealed to the Supreme Court. 327 00:21:02,693 --> 00:21:05,773 Speaker 3: So there were nineteen parties involved in that. 328 00:21:06,213 --> 00:21:11,853 Speaker 4: Appeal and the Court came out with their judgment in 329 00:21:12,013 --> 00:21:14,813 Speaker 4: just a couple of weeks. I mean, the Supreme Court 330 00:21:14,973 --> 00:21:18,693 Speaker 4: never does that, and it was all done. Their decision 331 00:21:18,893 --> 00:21:21,093 Speaker 4: was or judgment on that part of it. 332 00:21:21,213 --> 00:21:24,773 Speaker 3: The political part of it was released the day before 333 00:21:24,853 --> 00:21:25,653 Speaker 3: the debate was. 334 00:21:25,613 --> 00:21:29,093 Speaker 4: To happen in Parliament to start passing that law. So 335 00:21:29,173 --> 00:21:32,773 Speaker 4: it was a hugely political thing that they did. And 336 00:21:33,253 --> 00:21:38,093 Speaker 4: so my view and our view is that you cannot 337 00:21:38,253 --> 00:21:42,693 Speaker 4: trust the Supreme Court to interpret the Marine and Coastal 338 00:21:42,733 --> 00:21:47,333 Speaker 4: Area Act as Parliament intended. So whatever judgment they finally 339 00:21:47,333 --> 00:21:50,933 Speaker 4: come out with on that case should be annulled, like 340 00:21:51,053 --> 00:21:54,133 Speaker 4: the decision of the Court of Appeal and the decision 341 00:21:54,213 --> 00:21:57,733 Speaker 4: of all the High Court decisions, and they should all 342 00:21:57,773 --> 00:22:00,333 Speaker 4: be reheard under the new Amendment bill. 343 00:22:00,653 --> 00:22:02,813 Speaker 2: You see the parallel that we're running with America at 344 00:22:02,813 --> 00:22:04,773 Speaker 2: the moment as far as the courts are concerned. 345 00:22:05,413 --> 00:22:11,013 Speaker 4: Ah, yes, but not that it's in so many different areas. 346 00:22:11,653 --> 00:22:15,173 Speaker 4: The problems that we face here are exactly what other 347 00:22:15,253 --> 00:22:19,053 Speaker 4: Western nations are facing. And it seems to me that 348 00:22:19,213 --> 00:22:24,013 Speaker 4: instead of our governments realizing there are better ways through 349 00:22:24,093 --> 00:22:27,413 Speaker 4: some of these issues, they just carry on banging on 350 00:22:27,813 --> 00:22:30,333 Speaker 4: trying to make it work here, when really. 351 00:22:30,293 --> 00:22:32,093 Speaker 3: Others have shown the way. 352 00:22:32,333 --> 00:22:35,813 Speaker 2: I just pulled out Roger Partridge's article Who Makes the Law? 353 00:22:36,573 --> 00:22:39,413 Speaker 2: We did a podcast interview on that, and it was 354 00:22:39,693 --> 00:22:43,893 Speaker 2: fascinating and it got a lot of attention. The question 355 00:22:43,973 --> 00:22:47,253 Speaker 2: that comes to me is why is it that, not 356 00:22:47,533 --> 00:22:51,173 Speaker 2: just here, but in other places, that the courts are 357 00:22:51,213 --> 00:22:54,213 Speaker 2: getting away with things that they have no right to 358 00:22:54,253 --> 00:22:57,573 Speaker 2: get away with, But they're establishing themselves in a position 359 00:22:57,853 --> 00:23:04,853 Speaker 2: beyond their borders, beyond their status, and nobody seems to 360 00:23:04,893 --> 00:23:07,813 Speaker 2: be there's no rise up. If this country was paying 361 00:23:07,813 --> 00:23:11,893 Speaker 2: attention way that it should be, then surely the number 362 00:23:11,893 --> 00:23:14,813 Speaker 2: of lawyers and law companies in this in this country 363 00:23:14,853 --> 00:23:19,293 Speaker 2: would have would have voiced an almost universal opinion to 364 00:23:20,293 --> 00:23:21,853 Speaker 2: battle this. Am I wrong. 365 00:23:23,413 --> 00:23:26,213 Speaker 3: I think there's a few things going on here. 366 00:23:27,213 --> 00:23:29,013 Speaker 4: First of all, we have to be a little bit 367 00:23:29,053 --> 00:23:33,653 Speaker 4: careful because New Zealand doesn't have a written constitution. We're 368 00:23:33,693 --> 00:23:36,413 Speaker 4: one of the few countries in the world where parliament 369 00:23:36,533 --> 00:23:41,053 Speaker 4: is supreme, and many other countries where they are battling 370 00:23:41,413 --> 00:23:45,453 Speaker 4: bad things happening with their court system. The court system 371 00:23:45,573 --> 00:23:50,893 Speaker 4: actually stands above, you know, very equivalent. 372 00:23:50,413 --> 00:23:54,373 Speaker 3: Of a parliament. And so in New Zealand. 373 00:23:54,973 --> 00:23:58,733 Speaker 4: We've got these different branches of governments, and you have 374 00:23:58,893 --> 00:24:05,013 Speaker 4: politicians steadfastly trying to avoid criticizing the judiciary, which is, 375 00:24:05,213 --> 00:24:09,053 Speaker 4: you know, another pillar of our democracy. But the reality 376 00:24:09,213 --> 00:24:14,173 Speaker 4: is parliaments, it's supreme of the court system, and so 377 00:24:14,373 --> 00:24:18,893 Speaker 4: when the court system does something wrong, then our parliament 378 00:24:19,013 --> 00:24:22,773 Speaker 4: should be resolving it. Now, this problem has been coming on, 379 00:24:22,893 --> 00:24:26,013 Speaker 4: the particular problem that affects the Marine and Coastal Area 380 00:24:26,053 --> 00:24:29,173 Speaker 4: Act has been coming on for some time. And this 381 00:24:29,253 --> 00:24:35,413 Speaker 4: is where the judiciary or the justices of the Supreme 382 00:24:35,493 --> 00:24:43,093 Speaker 4: Court are pushing for decolonization and Maori law to be 383 00:24:43,293 --> 00:24:49,533 Speaker 4: incorporated into our common law. And of course it's talking 384 00:24:49,693 --> 00:24:50,813 Speaker 4: tease latent. 385 00:24:51,293 --> 00:24:53,893 Speaker 3: You think about it. One of the things, one of 386 00:24:53,933 --> 00:24:54,853 Speaker 3: the strengths of. 387 00:24:54,853 --> 00:24:59,493 Speaker 4: The law is that it's predictable and it's certain. And 388 00:24:59,573 --> 00:25:02,533 Speaker 4: you look at the word tea kunger which I mentioned earlier. 389 00:25:02,653 --> 00:25:07,053 Speaker 4: Teacunger is Mari custom number one. It can't be defined. 390 00:25:07,693 --> 00:25:11,973 Speaker 4: So how on earth can you put something that can't 391 00:25:12,053 --> 00:25:15,693 Speaker 4: be defined into the middle of our common law and 392 00:25:15,893 --> 00:25:18,093 Speaker 4: expect the rule of law to work. 393 00:25:18,613 --> 00:25:19,213 Speaker 3: It can't. 394 00:25:19,933 --> 00:25:24,013 Speaker 4: And so right from the beginning, instead of people standing 395 00:25:24,093 --> 00:25:27,133 Speaker 4: up and saying, you know, stop stop, you know, we've 396 00:25:27,173 --> 00:25:32,013 Speaker 4: got a problem, they essentially just turned a blind eye. 397 00:25:32,493 --> 00:25:36,253 Speaker 4: And now it's got worse. And the Supreme Court is 398 00:25:36,413 --> 00:25:40,253 Speaker 4: leading this charge. Justice Joe Williams, who was the former 399 00:25:40,293 --> 00:25:43,653 Speaker 4: head of the Waitangi Tribunal, of course, is one of 400 00:25:43,693 --> 00:25:47,573 Speaker 4: the key people in there that's leading the charge. 401 00:25:48,133 --> 00:25:50,693 Speaker 3: And it needs to be stopped. 402 00:25:50,933 --> 00:25:54,453 Speaker 4: And what Roger Partridge has done is he's put out 403 00:25:54,893 --> 00:25:59,173 Speaker 4: a number of measures that should be taken that will 404 00:25:59,213 --> 00:26:02,413 Speaker 4: help to reign in this court. I mean, he's a 405 00:26:02,773 --> 00:26:05,173 Speaker 4: you know, a lawyer, and he's done it in a 406 00:26:05,253 --> 00:26:09,013 Speaker 4: perfectly legitimate legal way. People like us, we say, just 407 00:26:09,133 --> 00:26:12,613 Speaker 4: bantieking it, you know, don't let it be part of 408 00:26:12,653 --> 00:26:15,733 Speaker 4: the law, but one way or another it has to 409 00:26:15,773 --> 00:26:16,333 Speaker 4: be stopped. 410 00:26:16,373 --> 00:26:18,773 Speaker 3: Otherwise you may as well kiss goodbye to the rule 411 00:26:18,773 --> 00:26:19,853 Speaker 3: of law. And look. 412 00:26:19,893 --> 00:26:23,853 Speaker 4: The other day I saw a case. It involves some 413 00:26:23,973 --> 00:26:29,093 Speaker 4: dispute within Maridom with the Crown, and they wanted to 414 00:26:29,133 --> 00:26:32,013 Speaker 4: go straight from the High Court to the Supreme Court. 415 00:26:32,973 --> 00:26:35,973 Speaker 4: And I bet the reason is that they expect if 416 00:26:36,013 --> 00:26:38,733 Speaker 4: they go to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court will 417 00:26:38,733 --> 00:26:39,773 Speaker 4: find in their favor. 418 00:26:40,413 --> 00:26:42,773 Speaker 3: Well, blow me down. What do we do about this? 419 00:26:43,093 --> 00:26:46,853 Speaker 4: If the Supreme Court is now biased in favor of 420 00:26:46,933 --> 00:26:50,333 Speaker 4: mari sovereignty, How the hang do we as a country 421 00:26:50,933 --> 00:26:55,293 Speaker 4: work this out and go forward? We can't. So something 422 00:26:55,413 --> 00:26:57,773 Speaker 4: has to be done. And if it's not done by 423 00:26:57,893 --> 00:27:00,933 Speaker 4: reigning in the Supreme Court, then we damn we'll need 424 00:27:01,013 --> 00:27:05,533 Speaker 4: to reopen our ties with the Privy Council in England 425 00:27:05,613 --> 00:27:07,733 Speaker 4: or something. We need to do something now. 426 00:27:07,933 --> 00:27:09,693 Speaker 2: I'm glad you mention that, because I was going to 427 00:27:09,693 --> 00:27:14,613 Speaker 2: bring it up. It was two thousand and three, I think, 428 00:27:14,693 --> 00:27:18,653 Speaker 2: wasn't it. Yes, yeah, I think when the give or 429 00:27:18,653 --> 00:27:23,173 Speaker 2: take when the Privy Council was dumped by Helen Clark 430 00:27:23,453 --> 00:27:28,933 Speaker 2: and her Attorney General, and I certainly argued against it 431 00:27:29,053 --> 00:27:32,613 Speaker 2: as much as I possibly could, and raised it on 432 00:27:32,773 --> 00:27:36,573 Speaker 2: radio at the time. Not many other people cared about it. 433 00:27:37,653 --> 00:27:40,253 Speaker 2: There were some very good lawyers who were very concerned 434 00:27:40,253 --> 00:27:44,253 Speaker 2: with it. There are other lawyers who you know who cares. 435 00:27:44,613 --> 00:27:50,333 Speaker 2: I question now whether what we're experiencing was part of 436 00:27:50,493 --> 00:27:54,693 Speaker 2: the goal of the perpetrators of the disappearance of the 437 00:27:55,813 --> 00:27:57,893 Speaker 2: Privy Council from our legal system. 438 00:27:58,693 --> 00:28:01,213 Speaker 3: That's hard to tell, right because so many. 439 00:28:01,893 --> 00:28:06,373 Speaker 2: It is it really? I mean, if you're as clever 440 00:28:06,453 --> 00:28:11,613 Speaker 2: as Helen Clark is reputed and their Attorney General, if 441 00:28:11,613 --> 00:28:14,853 Speaker 2: you're as clever as they are, what's your goal in 442 00:28:14,893 --> 00:28:17,893 Speaker 2: doing away with the pretty Council? Is it really just 443 00:28:17,933 --> 00:28:22,173 Speaker 2: to give New Zealand independence. We're talking about people of 444 00:28:22,253 --> 00:28:26,693 Speaker 2: the left here, and in some cases some extreme left, 445 00:28:26,973 --> 00:28:29,573 Speaker 2: and it doesn't take too much to look down the 446 00:28:29,653 --> 00:28:33,733 Speaker 2: road a bit to see the path that would likely trend. 447 00:28:35,013 --> 00:28:38,373 Speaker 2: And I'm suggesting in the form of a question that 448 00:28:38,773 --> 00:28:40,813 Speaker 2: maybe that was the goal, or part of the goal 449 00:28:40,853 --> 00:28:41,333 Speaker 2: at least. 450 00:28:42,533 --> 00:28:45,693 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, there's no doubt about it that if 451 00:28:45,733 --> 00:28:49,413 Speaker 4: the left can capture the highest court in your land, 452 00:28:50,213 --> 00:28:53,253 Speaker 4: then you've got no comeback, have you? You have to 453 00:28:53,333 --> 00:28:56,293 Speaker 4: change the law, and that's in fact, you know what 454 00:28:56,333 --> 00:28:59,613 Speaker 4: we're seeing now happening. But we've got a government that 455 00:28:59,733 --> 00:29:02,133 Speaker 4: hasn't figured that they're going to have to do this 456 00:29:02,213 --> 00:29:04,773 Speaker 4: a lot if they're going to keep on top of 457 00:29:04,893 --> 00:29:11,053 Speaker 4: these issues, and so you know, that's the dilemma. So yes, 458 00:29:11,173 --> 00:29:14,013 Speaker 4: perhaps that was always the goal, that you end up 459 00:29:14,053 --> 00:29:20,293 Speaker 4: with a captured High Court, highest Court of Appeal, and 460 00:29:20,333 --> 00:29:25,013 Speaker 4: then you really are upsetting the apple cart, aren't you, 461 00:29:25,133 --> 00:29:29,853 Speaker 4: because they know that governments are loath to change the 462 00:29:29,933 --> 00:29:33,933 Speaker 4: lord because of what the courts have done. And so yes, 463 00:29:34,133 --> 00:29:38,293 Speaker 4: so you end up capturing the law changes in the future. 464 00:29:41,653 --> 00:29:44,693 Speaker 4: If that was the case, that very clever, very long 465 00:29:45,413 --> 00:29:48,973 Speaker 4: you know, strategic thinking, long term plans. 466 00:29:49,613 --> 00:29:55,453 Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that what not that I'm necessarily suggesting that 467 00:29:55,573 --> 00:30:01,493 Speaker 2: this was directly connected, But isn't that basically what Marxism 468 00:30:01,613 --> 00:30:05,613 Speaker 2: is all about? Yeah, long, long term, the long march 469 00:30:05,693 --> 00:30:07,973 Speaker 2: through the institutions. 470 00:30:08,613 --> 00:30:09,573 Speaker 5: Yeah. 471 00:30:09,653 --> 00:30:13,773 Speaker 2: Now if they weren't, if they weren't thinking along those lines, 472 00:30:14,133 --> 00:30:16,373 Speaker 2: then one might accuse them of not being very bright, 473 00:30:16,853 --> 00:30:22,053 Speaker 2: because if you know your Marxisms, et cetera, then you 474 00:30:22,173 --> 00:30:23,333 Speaker 2: know how they think. 475 00:30:24,373 --> 00:30:27,933 Speaker 4: So well, when you think about it later, you know. 476 00:30:28,453 --> 00:30:33,693 Speaker 4: They Yes, they do definitely appear to have captured our 477 00:30:33,733 --> 00:30:39,733 Speaker 4: court system, and they've definitely captured the media. They've captured 478 00:30:39,733 --> 00:30:44,973 Speaker 4: the education system, they've captured the arts to a large extent, 479 00:30:45,733 --> 00:30:50,053 Speaker 4: and so they've keptured all the institutions of culture in 480 00:30:50,133 --> 00:30:53,893 Speaker 4: New Zealand, and the fight back against. 481 00:30:53,493 --> 00:30:58,973 Speaker 3: It all is quite limited. It's a very sad state 482 00:30:58,973 --> 00:30:59,573 Speaker 3: of affairs. 483 00:30:59,973 --> 00:31:04,733 Speaker 2: It is so parliamentary sovereignty hangs in the balance. The 484 00:31:04,773 --> 00:31:10,533 Speaker 2: title of your current article writtenublished on the fourteenth Valentine's Day, 485 00:31:10,693 --> 00:31:12,573 Speaker 2: Now that's a great day to publish, that, isn't it. 486 00:31:14,053 --> 00:31:18,373 Speaker 4: And listen, we all know soon enough whether which way 487 00:31:18,493 --> 00:31:22,693 Speaker 4: this country's going, because soon enough the government will have 488 00:31:22,773 --> 00:31:25,813 Speaker 4: to make a decision about what it does with that bill. 489 00:31:26,053 --> 00:31:28,293 Speaker 4: I mean, as I said, the courts are wanting to 490 00:31:28,373 --> 00:31:32,493 Speaker 4: move on now, and so they will just have to 491 00:31:32,533 --> 00:31:35,933 Speaker 4: decide whether they pass their bill, in which case they 492 00:31:36,013 --> 00:31:41,493 Speaker 4: will be restoring parliamentary sovereignty, or if they decide to 493 00:31:42,013 --> 00:31:43,613 Speaker 4: shelve it. 494 00:31:43,133 --> 00:31:44,173 Speaker 3: Sort of permanently. 495 00:31:44,813 --> 00:31:48,893 Speaker 4: Then we'll know that parliamentary sovereignty is crumbling and that 496 00:31:48,973 --> 00:31:52,893 Speaker 4: the courts have actually intimidated them and are now taking 497 00:31:53,013 --> 00:31:56,493 Speaker 4: charge of lawmaking in this country, and as I say 498 00:31:56,493 --> 00:32:00,293 Speaker 4: in that article, that will be a very dangerous situation 499 00:32:00,573 --> 00:32:03,373 Speaker 4: and a very sad state of affairs for New Zealand. 500 00:32:03,613 --> 00:32:06,493 Speaker 2: So as the present makeup of Parliament is concerned, do 501 00:32:06,573 --> 00:32:10,333 Speaker 2: you see any anything standing in the way of a 502 00:32:10,493 --> 00:32:13,373 Speaker 2: prime minister, not to mention any names, but a prime 503 00:32:13,413 --> 00:32:18,253 Speaker 2: minister from taking the lead and calling on not just 504 00:32:19,333 --> 00:32:23,133 Speaker 2: his party or her party, but calling on all parties 505 00:32:23,133 --> 00:32:25,533 Speaker 2: on the government ventures to stand up to this. 506 00:32:27,533 --> 00:32:29,053 Speaker 3: No, there is nothing to stop it. 507 00:32:29,373 --> 00:32:31,853 Speaker 4: What they would normally do, of course, is that they 508 00:32:31,853 --> 00:32:33,653 Speaker 4: would normally you have a. 509 00:32:33,653 --> 00:32:36,053 Speaker 3: Word with each other and get agreement. 510 00:32:36,173 --> 00:32:41,373 Speaker 4: Because you know, the law change was New Zealand's first 511 00:32:41,613 --> 00:32:45,653 Speaker 4: coalition deal part of their deal, and Act was very 512 00:32:45,693 --> 00:32:50,173 Speaker 4: supportive of it as well. And so if it's tied, 513 00:32:50,373 --> 00:32:54,053 Speaker 4: if the stalling of the law change is tied to 514 00:32:54,293 --> 00:32:59,053 Speaker 4: the activism of the Supreme Court, then of course the 515 00:32:59,173 --> 00:33:02,093 Speaker 4: leaders of both of those political parties are going to 516 00:33:02,213 --> 00:33:05,253 Speaker 4: agree with the Prime Minister that the courts have got 517 00:33:05,293 --> 00:33:08,253 Speaker 4: to be brought into line. And so if he may 518 00:33:09,173 --> 00:33:12,573 Speaker 4: a speech, a trump like speech, talking about these issues, 519 00:33:12,933 --> 00:33:16,173 Speaker 4: he would have the full support of those parties and 520 00:33:16,253 --> 00:33:18,293 Speaker 4: the full support of most New Zealanders. 521 00:33:18,733 --> 00:33:21,213 Speaker 2: You think if he did that the Trump like speech, 522 00:33:21,653 --> 00:33:22,893 Speaker 2: do you think he'd be castigated. 523 00:33:24,413 --> 00:33:27,573 Speaker 4: Look, this is the problem and I think this is 524 00:33:28,493 --> 00:33:30,093 Speaker 4: why we're seeing. 525 00:33:30,213 --> 00:33:31,813 Speaker 3: Happening on a daily basis. 526 00:33:31,853 --> 00:33:35,333 Speaker 4: What is happening, and that is that, you know, I 527 00:33:35,373 --> 00:33:40,693 Speaker 4: think the Prime Minister doesn't know how to handle the 528 00:33:40,733 --> 00:33:41,893 Speaker 4: hostile media. 529 00:33:42,453 --> 00:33:45,053 Speaker 3: The hostile media is terrible. 530 00:33:45,293 --> 00:33:48,333 Speaker 4: I mean we have never seen anything like it, and 531 00:33:48,653 --> 00:33:50,693 Speaker 4: you know, it's got to the point, like many New 532 00:33:50,773 --> 00:33:53,453 Speaker 4: Zealanders where we can't even turn on the news half 533 00:33:53,493 --> 00:33:56,573 Speaker 4: the time because you just want to throw something at 534 00:33:56,613 --> 00:34:02,693 Speaker 4: your television. And so you know, he has to learn 535 00:34:03,173 --> 00:34:06,333 Speaker 4: how to bat that off, give back as much as 536 00:34:06,333 --> 00:34:09,573 Speaker 4: he gets. They're a good example of people showing the 537 00:34:09,613 --> 00:34:12,053 Speaker 4: way how to do that. I mean David Seymour did 538 00:34:12,053 --> 00:34:15,053 Speaker 4: it up at Waitangi when you know someone in the 539 00:34:15,093 --> 00:34:18,533 Speaker 4: media is getting hostile to him. We've seen Elon Musk 540 00:34:18,613 --> 00:34:23,533 Speaker 4: do it, you know, internationally and Donald Tripp isn't too 541 00:34:23,573 --> 00:34:26,653 Speaker 4: bad at it, you know, And so there are people 542 00:34:26,773 --> 00:34:29,653 Speaker 4: there who stand up to the media, and that's what 543 00:34:29,693 --> 00:34:30,813 Speaker 4: we need in New Zealand. 544 00:34:30,853 --> 00:34:33,413 Speaker 3: We need a Prime Minister who can do that. And 545 00:34:33,453 --> 00:34:33,773 Speaker 3: when he. 546 00:34:33,853 --> 00:34:39,853 Speaker 4: Gets the chorus of baying about standing up and putting 547 00:34:39,973 --> 00:34:42,653 Speaker 4: the court system in its place, or whatever you know, 548 00:34:42,733 --> 00:34:45,693 Speaker 4: he decides to do. He's got to bat it off, 549 00:34:46,133 --> 00:34:49,533 Speaker 4: ignore it turned to blind eye, because what he knows 550 00:34:49,573 --> 00:34:53,533 Speaker 4: he's doing is right for our country, right for our democracy, 551 00:34:53,933 --> 00:34:57,213 Speaker 4: right for our future, and right for our freedom. For 552 00:34:57,293 --> 00:35:01,413 Speaker 4: goodness sake, all of these things matters more than anything else, 553 00:35:02,093 --> 00:35:06,573 Speaker 4: and he is not delivering that sort of message, which 554 00:35:06,653 --> 00:35:09,613 Speaker 4: is you know, obviously came back to our earlier conversation 555 00:35:09,693 --> 00:35:11,093 Speaker 4: about do we need a Trump here? 556 00:35:12,333 --> 00:35:14,173 Speaker 2: Maybe those things aren't important to. 557 00:35:14,213 --> 00:35:18,493 Speaker 4: Him, Well, maybe they should be important to him because 558 00:35:18,493 --> 00:35:20,413 Speaker 4: it's part of being a prime minister. 559 00:35:21,173 --> 00:35:22,373 Speaker 3: And that's the problem. 560 00:35:22,573 --> 00:35:26,093 Speaker 4: He needs to realize that he got elected and his 561 00:35:26,253 --> 00:35:30,013 Speaker 4: coalition got elected on more than just the economy. Now, 562 00:35:30,013 --> 00:35:33,893 Speaker 4: we don't want him to lose sight and purpose with 563 00:35:34,013 --> 00:35:38,413 Speaker 4: the economy, because that is turning around this ship is 564 00:35:38,493 --> 00:35:41,173 Speaker 4: a huge job, and he is right to put a 565 00:35:41,173 --> 00:35:45,653 Speaker 4: lot of effort there, but he cannot neglect these other 566 00:35:45,733 --> 00:35:49,253 Speaker 4: matters which are equally important to New Zealanders. 567 00:35:49,573 --> 00:35:53,573 Speaker 2: I don't think it'll be long before what's being mumbled privately, 568 00:35:54,813 --> 00:35:57,093 Speaker 2: and it's quite a bit of it, will become far 569 00:35:57,173 --> 00:35:58,933 Speaker 2: more speculative publicly. 570 00:36:00,013 --> 00:36:03,533 Speaker 4: That's the problem, isn't it really, Because once you start 571 00:36:03,573 --> 00:36:07,813 Speaker 4: getting leadership murmurings in a party, then they go down 572 00:36:07,853 --> 00:36:11,253 Speaker 4: even first either in the polls. The other side gains 573 00:36:11,293 --> 00:36:15,053 Speaker 4: strength and power and the media, you know, give it 574 00:36:15,093 --> 00:36:18,973 Speaker 4: to them, and so you know, it's a terrible thing. 575 00:36:19,133 --> 00:36:21,293 Speaker 4: It would be far better to be honest for the 576 00:36:21,293 --> 00:36:24,453 Speaker 4: future of this country if the Prime Minister could take 577 00:36:24,533 --> 00:36:28,293 Speaker 4: some good advice and learn a few tricks of the 578 00:36:28,333 --> 00:36:33,093 Speaker 4: trade and go on and represent all New Zealanders. 579 00:36:32,493 --> 00:36:36,813 Speaker 2: And not a bit later I suggest, yeah, probably the 580 00:36:37,533 --> 00:36:41,773 Speaker 2: ripples aren't aren't there. Look, we spent almost a month 581 00:36:41,773 --> 00:36:46,133 Speaker 2: in Australia over Christmas and they gave me the opportunity 582 00:36:46,173 --> 00:36:50,693 Speaker 2: to park all the stuff that's going on elsewhere. I 583 00:36:50,693 --> 00:36:54,333 Speaker 2: didn't have to worry about it. And when we came back, 584 00:36:54,813 --> 00:36:57,493 Speaker 2: I down down the track. You know. Week by week 585 00:36:58,013 --> 00:37:02,653 Speaker 2: I picked up that there was this satisfaction and it's growing. 586 00:37:03,333 --> 00:37:05,453 Speaker 2: And I'll leave it at that because I don't I 587 00:37:05,493 --> 00:37:09,373 Speaker 2: don't know anything. I just I just listen to what 588 00:37:09,413 --> 00:37:10,293 Speaker 2: people have to say. 589 00:37:10,893 --> 00:37:14,413 Speaker 3: And it's the same with us. You know, we get feedback. 590 00:37:14,293 --> 00:37:18,373 Speaker 4: From thousands of people every week and it's the same. 591 00:37:18,493 --> 00:37:21,493 Speaker 4: You can sense the ripple that's going on, but it 592 00:37:21,573 --> 00:37:28,453 Speaker 4: isn't fatal at the moment, and so some strength and 593 00:37:28,573 --> 00:37:34,013 Speaker 4: some common sense could help to you know, reassure people 594 00:37:34,373 --> 00:37:37,933 Speaker 4: that the coalition is still on track because it is 595 00:37:37,973 --> 00:37:42,413 Speaker 4: a three party deal we're talking about here, and that's 596 00:37:42,493 --> 00:37:45,373 Speaker 4: what's needed. We need the coalition to be strong. We 597 00:37:45,493 --> 00:37:48,573 Speaker 4: need them to be particularly strong going into next year 598 00:37:48,693 --> 00:37:51,853 Speaker 4: election year because I tell you what later, and if 599 00:37:51,893 --> 00:37:54,333 Speaker 4: the other guys get in with the Maori Party in 600 00:37:54,373 --> 00:37:58,293 Speaker 4: tow it will be an absolute disaster for this country. 601 00:37:58,853 --> 00:38:01,333 Speaker 4: And so those people who think that things aren't as 602 00:38:01,333 --> 00:38:04,693 Speaker 4: good as they could be right now should actually, you know, 603 00:38:04,813 --> 00:38:07,893 Speaker 4: have another think about what it would be like if 604 00:38:07,933 --> 00:38:11,653 Speaker 4: these guys that are in power now lose and the 605 00:38:11,693 --> 00:38:15,893 Speaker 4: other lot eaten, because it will be worse, way worse. 606 00:38:17,253 --> 00:38:20,133 Speaker 2: Muriel on another matter, and it is my favorite. I 607 00:38:20,213 --> 00:38:23,893 Speaker 2: have to well, it has been for so long a 608 00:38:24,013 --> 00:38:30,653 Speaker 2: dominant aspect of my attention. Why is New Zealand sticking 609 00:38:30,693 --> 00:38:34,413 Speaker 2: to UN climate rules when everyone else is walking away. 610 00:38:34,893 --> 00:38:38,933 Speaker 2: We've got a supposed Minister for climate change who's refusing 611 00:38:38,973 --> 00:38:44,173 Speaker 2: to refusing to even talk to farmers before introducing rules 612 00:38:44,213 --> 00:38:47,573 Speaker 2: that affect them dramatically. This was an incredible piece that 613 00:38:47,653 --> 00:38:51,493 Speaker 2: I read, not what I'm quoting from here. But he's 614 00:38:51,573 --> 00:38:54,453 Speaker 2: just refused to talk to anybody. It's just determined to 615 00:38:54,453 --> 00:38:57,293 Speaker 2: go ahead and do what he wants to do. But 616 00:38:57,973 --> 00:39:01,973 Speaker 2: I go back to this piece. Nearly every major country 617 00:39:02,133 --> 00:39:07,213 Speaker 2: ignored the UN's February deadline to submit newer mission reduction plans, 618 00:39:07,773 --> 00:39:10,293 Speaker 2: except for New Zealand at a handful of others. While 619 00:39:10,333 --> 00:39:13,693 Speaker 2: global powers like China, India, and the EU delayed or 620 00:39:13,733 --> 00:39:17,013 Speaker 2: outright ignored the requirement, New Zealand lined up with just 621 00:39:17,253 --> 00:39:20,973 Speaker 2: nine other nations to comply, with most of the world 622 00:39:21,053 --> 00:39:24,413 Speaker 2: either backing away from the strict climate commitments or slow 623 00:39:24,453 --> 00:39:27,893 Speaker 2: walking their responses. Why is New Zealand still playing by 624 00:39:27,933 --> 00:39:31,133 Speaker 2: the rules of the one ninety five signatories to the 625 00:39:31,133 --> 00:39:37,253 Speaker 2: Paris Agreement, only thirteen submitted their nationally determined contributions on time. 626 00:39:38,413 --> 00:39:41,933 Speaker 2: These are country specific climate action plans under the Paris Agreement, 627 00:39:42,053 --> 00:39:47,413 Speaker 2: outlining emission's reduction targets and strategies. Major economies, including China, 628 00:39:47,493 --> 00:39:50,653 Speaker 2: the EU, and India failed to meet the deadline, while 629 00:39:50,693 --> 00:39:53,093 Speaker 2: others like Canada or Japan are still sitting on the 630 00:39:53,173 --> 00:39:56,533 Speaker 2: draft plans. Even the United States submission came from the 631 00:39:56,573 --> 00:40:00,493 Speaker 2: outgoing Biden administration, while Trump has already pulled or moved 632 00:40:00,573 --> 00:40:03,693 Speaker 2: to pull America out of the deal entirely, and he 633 00:40:03,813 --> 00:40:11,693 Speaker 2: has I'm fascinated why we are sitting in a group 634 00:40:11,773 --> 00:40:17,373 Speaker 2: of countries like Ghana, Bangladesh, Armenia, while you know, practically 635 00:40:17,413 --> 00:40:20,213 Speaker 2: all the other countries are walking away from this. And 636 00:40:20,293 --> 00:40:23,253 Speaker 2: I've got a pile of headlines, for instance, from around 637 00:40:23,253 --> 00:40:27,373 Speaker 2: the world that are alluding to this. What is it 638 00:40:27,413 --> 00:40:32,253 Speaker 2: about New Zealand? And keep in mind that the PM 639 00:40:32,293 --> 00:40:35,693 Speaker 2: this quote is not accurate, but it's close enough said 640 00:40:35,733 --> 00:40:39,533 Speaker 2: something along the lines of anybody who doesn't recognize in 641 00:40:39,853 --> 00:40:43,693 Speaker 2: the twenty first century that mankind is responsible for climate 642 00:40:43,773 --> 00:40:49,093 Speaker 2: change global warming is an idiot or something close. Why 643 00:40:49,173 --> 00:40:50,533 Speaker 2: are we in this position? Do you think? 644 00:40:52,293 --> 00:40:54,853 Speaker 4: Look, that is a very good question that a lot 645 00:40:54,893 --> 00:40:58,613 Speaker 4: of New Zealanders are now asking. I mean, you know, 646 00:40:59,133 --> 00:41:04,093 Speaker 4: these climate commitments, it's hugely political, and it's all about 647 00:41:04,173 --> 00:41:09,733 Speaker 4: the industrializing economies and you know, bringing countries down to 648 00:41:09,813 --> 00:41:12,773 Speaker 4: their knees. Essentially, it's got nothing to do with the 649 00:41:12,813 --> 00:41:16,213 Speaker 4: flipping climate. That's what bothers me about all of this. 650 00:41:16,373 --> 00:41:19,693 Speaker 4: You know, the climate will do what the climate does. 651 00:41:19,813 --> 00:41:21,173 Speaker 3: It's driven by nature. 652 00:41:21,373 --> 00:41:25,373 Speaker 4: Even the amount of emissions that mankind is responsible for 653 00:41:25,973 --> 00:41:29,773 Speaker 4: is about four percent of all the carbon emissions that 654 00:41:30,013 --> 00:41:31,813 Speaker 4: circulate in the climate. 655 00:41:32,973 --> 00:41:36,093 Speaker 3: Nature is the biggest driver of the climate. 656 00:41:36,133 --> 00:41:39,053 Speaker 4: And it's not just trees and plants and plankton and 657 00:41:39,093 --> 00:41:43,253 Speaker 4: all those other things that you know, put out and 658 00:41:43,693 --> 00:41:51,253 Speaker 4: restore or regenerate carbon dioxide, recirculate carbon dioxide. It's you know, 659 00:41:52,693 --> 00:41:58,373 Speaker 4: rocks letting off carbon dioxide, volcanoes, it's the weather patterns, 660 00:41:58,533 --> 00:42:03,093 Speaker 4: it's just everything. And for people to think that in 661 00:42:03,213 --> 00:42:09,253 Speaker 4: New Zealand, trying to force farmers to reduce their bird sizes, 662 00:42:10,013 --> 00:42:12,053 Speaker 4: kill off cows and sheep. 663 00:42:12,413 --> 00:42:13,973 Speaker 3: And you know, make. 664 00:42:14,093 --> 00:42:18,373 Speaker 4: Government departments account for their carbon emissions. I mean, how 665 00:42:18,533 --> 00:42:22,373 Speaker 4: stupid is that This is the problem. It's got completely 666 00:42:22,453 --> 00:42:27,493 Speaker 4: out of control, and the politicians appear too scared of 667 00:42:27,533 --> 00:42:31,293 Speaker 4: the negative media who are all on board with this 668 00:42:31,453 --> 00:42:36,693 Speaker 4: left wing goal or agenda. They appear too scared to 669 00:42:36,693 --> 00:42:41,093 Speaker 4: pick a fight, and they shouldn't be, because other countries. 670 00:42:40,613 --> 00:42:43,453 Speaker 3: Around the world are realizing if they. 671 00:42:43,333 --> 00:42:47,573 Speaker 4: Go down this track, they are sacrificing their economies. That's 672 00:42:47,653 --> 00:42:51,573 Speaker 4: precisely what's happening here, and they are not prepared to 673 00:42:51,613 --> 00:42:54,013 Speaker 4: do it anymore. And so that's why you've got so 674 00:42:54,173 --> 00:42:59,093 Speaker 4: many countries are prevaricating over this, they're delaying it, They're 675 00:42:59,133 --> 00:43:01,813 Speaker 4: probably a lot of them going to finally pull out 676 00:43:01,813 --> 00:43:05,613 Speaker 4: at some stage. But meanwhile, our prime minister on one 677 00:43:05,653 --> 00:43:09,093 Speaker 4: hand talks about the need for economic growth both and 678 00:43:09,133 --> 00:43:11,853 Speaker 4: on the other hand he has in place all of 679 00:43:11,853 --> 00:43:16,333 Speaker 4: these policies which are causing the price of electricity and 680 00:43:16,453 --> 00:43:21,093 Speaker 4: petrol and all sorts of other things to skyrocket. Instead 681 00:43:21,133 --> 00:43:24,573 Speaker 4: of saying no, enough is enough, we're putting our economy 682 00:43:24,933 --> 00:43:26,333 Speaker 4: and our people first. 683 00:43:26,653 --> 00:43:27,773 Speaker 3: If he got rid of all. 684 00:43:27,653 --> 00:43:31,013 Speaker 4: The carbon levees, all of a sudden prices would. 685 00:43:30,893 --> 00:43:33,013 Speaker 3: Drop, all sorts. 686 00:43:32,653 --> 00:43:36,493 Speaker 4: Of positive things would start to happen. And instead he's 687 00:43:36,533 --> 00:43:39,693 Speaker 4: got a blindfold on to what's going on and carries 688 00:43:39,773 --> 00:43:41,293 Speaker 4: down this dangerous path. 689 00:43:42,053 --> 00:43:46,093 Speaker 2: I couldn't have matched that little undone better off the cuff. 690 00:43:46,333 --> 00:43:47,133 Speaker 2: That was brilliant. 691 00:43:48,973 --> 00:43:49,453 Speaker 3: Thank you. 692 00:43:49,853 --> 00:43:54,053 Speaker 2: All I can say is that when you've got people 693 00:43:54,093 --> 00:43:58,933 Speaker 2: in power who refuse to look at any new information, 694 00:44:00,253 --> 00:44:04,773 Speaker 2: any new theories or statistics, don't want to know about it, 695 00:44:04,853 --> 00:44:09,093 Speaker 2: won't explain anything, and refuse to re used to discuss 696 00:44:09,133 --> 00:44:13,893 Speaker 2: it in public, you know you've got people in possessions 697 00:44:13,933 --> 00:44:17,173 Speaker 2: of power that they don't belong in. 698 00:44:18,893 --> 00:44:22,853 Speaker 4: It's a very very sad situation for New Zealand, you know, 699 00:44:23,013 --> 00:44:27,413 Speaker 4: because we're as tiny economy, we rely so heavily on 700 00:44:27,453 --> 00:44:29,013 Speaker 4: our agricultural sector. 701 00:44:29,693 --> 00:44:31,693 Speaker 3: I feel so sorry for those. 702 00:44:31,533 --> 00:44:35,173 Speaker 4: People who've been working so hard in that sector to 703 00:44:35,253 --> 00:44:38,413 Speaker 4: make a living and do well for the country. All 704 00:44:38,453 --> 00:44:42,293 Speaker 4: that's happened over the last probably ten is it fifteen years, 705 00:44:42,293 --> 00:44:46,413 Speaker 4: they've been pummeled, beaten up by the politicians for nothing. 706 00:44:46,853 --> 00:44:49,693 Speaker 3: That's the trouble Latin. It's all for nothing. Do you know? 707 00:44:49,773 --> 00:44:52,493 Speaker 4: The other day we were watching something on maybe it 708 00:44:52,533 --> 00:44:57,213 Speaker 4: was BBC or something about the new plans for carbon capture. 709 00:44:57,773 --> 00:45:02,013 Speaker 4: Huge technology involved, you know, multi millions, if not billions 710 00:45:02,053 --> 00:45:03,773 Speaker 4: of dollars involved, and we. 711 00:45:03,813 --> 00:45:06,933 Speaker 3: Sat there thinking, why don't you just ask the trees how. 712 00:45:06,813 --> 00:45:08,533 Speaker 5: To do it? 713 00:45:08,653 --> 00:45:11,533 Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? It's just so ridiculous. 714 00:45:11,693 --> 00:45:15,133 Speaker 4: All the stuff that they're trying to do is mad. 715 00:45:15,213 --> 00:45:17,933 Speaker 3: And don't get me going on renewable. 716 00:45:17,533 --> 00:45:22,213 Speaker 4: Energy technology and these massive soul of farms and wind 717 00:45:22,293 --> 00:45:26,373 Speaker 4: farms that gobble up resources and use huge amounts of. 718 00:45:27,933 --> 00:45:28,773 Speaker 3: Energy and put. 719 00:45:28,613 --> 00:45:31,733 Speaker 4: Out huge emissions in the process, and then they stand 720 00:45:31,773 --> 00:45:35,053 Speaker 4: there pretending that you know they're going to save the world. 721 00:45:35,573 --> 00:45:38,093 Speaker 4: I mean, it is just wrong what's happened. It should 722 00:45:38,213 --> 00:45:39,973 Speaker 4: never have been allowed to get so far. 723 00:45:41,333 --> 00:45:47,173 Speaker 2: It shouldn't but it has, and while it's starting to 724 00:45:47,173 --> 00:45:49,853 Speaker 2: dissipate in other parts of the world, all I can 725 00:45:49,893 --> 00:45:54,933 Speaker 2: say is that the word insane and idiotic comes to mind. 726 00:45:55,693 --> 00:45:59,933 Speaker 4: Did you know, just something late and sorry to jump in, 727 00:46:00,013 --> 00:46:02,973 Speaker 4: but it makes you wonder whether, in fact, you know, 728 00:46:03,653 --> 00:46:05,373 Speaker 4: our farmers. 729 00:46:04,893 --> 00:46:07,613 Speaker 3: Relied too much on their lobby groups. 730 00:46:07,893 --> 00:46:12,253 Speaker 4: And you know, in a lot of countries the politicians 731 00:46:12,253 --> 00:46:17,053 Speaker 4: have been forced to take notice because the farmers have 732 00:46:17,293 --> 00:46:19,533 Speaker 4: not given up on their protest. Now. 733 00:46:19,573 --> 00:46:21,253 Speaker 3: I know it's hard for them to. 734 00:46:21,173 --> 00:46:24,013 Speaker 4: Do that because of the work that they've got on 735 00:46:24,053 --> 00:46:26,213 Speaker 4: their farms and all the rest of it. But I 736 00:46:26,253 --> 00:46:29,933 Speaker 4: think everybody's been too nice about this. They need to 737 00:46:30,053 --> 00:46:34,133 Speaker 4: stand up and say enough is enough government, you're going 738 00:46:34,133 --> 00:46:36,893 Speaker 4: down the wrong track. And it was very interesting to 739 00:46:36,973 --> 00:46:40,933 Speaker 4: hear both I think New Zealand first and Act both 740 00:46:40,973 --> 00:46:44,693 Speaker 4: of their leaders have now started to question whether or 741 00:46:44,733 --> 00:46:48,293 Speaker 4: not New Zealand should be putting so hard on climate 742 00:46:48,413 --> 00:46:54,053 Speaker 4: change goals, and so already the coalition itself is obviously 743 00:46:54,173 --> 00:46:57,533 Speaker 4: starting to have second thoughts, and so maybe it is 744 00:46:57,693 --> 00:47:01,293 Speaker 4: time for the farmers to get more stoppy and all 745 00:47:01,333 --> 00:47:04,613 Speaker 4: the people in the towns who support them, where's groundswell 746 00:47:04,653 --> 00:47:04,893 Speaker 4: on this? 747 00:47:05,093 --> 00:47:05,333 Speaker 1: You know? 748 00:47:05,413 --> 00:47:09,413 Speaker 4: We need them to remind us all that this thing 749 00:47:09,573 --> 00:47:13,053 Speaker 4: has got out of control, that where the government is 750 00:47:13,173 --> 00:47:16,613 Speaker 4: going is anti their own plan to try and get 751 00:47:16,653 --> 00:47:20,613 Speaker 4: our economy going properly. And so what they should be 752 00:47:20,693 --> 00:47:25,173 Speaker 4: calling for is a pause and some common sense. And 753 00:47:25,213 --> 00:47:27,933 Speaker 4: hopefully if the pause is long enough, it will all 754 00:47:27,973 --> 00:47:30,413 Speaker 4: go away and we'll get back to being a normal 755 00:47:30,453 --> 00:47:33,213 Speaker 4: country with normal goals and doing the right thing again. 756 00:47:33,373 --> 00:47:34,453 Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be nice? 757 00:47:34,733 --> 00:47:35,093 Speaker 3: It would? 758 00:47:35,733 --> 00:47:38,613 Speaker 2: And on that note, I'm going to leave you with 759 00:47:39,013 --> 00:47:43,493 Speaker 2: one simple question. What physical evidence supports the contention that 760 00:47:43,533 --> 00:47:47,813 Speaker 2: carbon dioxide emissions from burning fossil fuels are the principal 761 00:47:47,813 --> 00:47:53,653 Speaker 2: cause of global warming since nineteen seventy That's it now, 762 00:47:53,813 --> 00:47:58,253 Speaker 2: There is none. There is none, none, none, none, none, zero. 763 00:47:58,933 --> 00:48:03,133 Speaker 2: And anybody who throws at you some computer figures or something, 764 00:48:03,853 --> 00:48:08,853 Speaker 2: tell them they're idiots. But that's a question that are 765 00:48:08,973 --> 00:48:13,133 Speaker 2: utilized from somebody who goes on to say I've posed 766 00:48:13,173 --> 00:48:16,253 Speaker 2: that question to five climate scientists, professors at the University 767 00:48:16,253 --> 00:48:19,333 Speaker 2: of Arizona, who claimed that our carbon dioxide emissions at 768 00:48:19,333 --> 00:48:22,613 Speaker 2: the principal cause of dangerous global warming. Yet when asked 769 00:48:22,613 --> 00:48:27,533 Speaker 2: the question, none could cite any supporting physical evidence. That's because, 770 00:48:27,573 --> 00:48:32,093 Speaker 2: as you said, quite rightly, there is none. On that note, again, 771 00:48:32,173 --> 00:48:34,573 Speaker 2: I say, it's been great talking with you. We shouldn't 772 00:48:34,613 --> 00:48:35,453 Speaker 2: leave it quite so long. 773 00:48:35,813 --> 00:48:37,973 Speaker 3: Thank you Layton. That's been a real pretty pleasure. 774 00:48:38,413 --> 00:48:55,293 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks for real all right. Podcast two one 775 00:48:55,373 --> 00:48:58,333 Speaker 2: hundred and seventy two and the mail Room with Missus 776 00:48:58,373 --> 00:49:00,933 Speaker 2: producers a very busy podcast this week. 777 00:49:01,253 --> 00:49:04,053 Speaker 6: Great lighton. We like a busy podcast. 778 00:49:04,333 --> 00:49:06,973 Speaker 2: And you've got a clutch full of emails. 779 00:49:06,653 --> 00:49:08,293 Speaker 6: I do as usual. Thank you so much. 780 00:49:08,733 --> 00:49:08,893 Speaker 4: One. 781 00:49:09,413 --> 00:49:11,533 Speaker 2: We will reserve a few of them for next week. 782 00:49:11,613 --> 00:49:12,293 Speaker 2: So where did you go? 783 00:49:13,293 --> 00:49:17,933 Speaker 6: Laden Joss says is National Party Conservative. In answer to that, 784 00:49:18,173 --> 00:49:20,653 Speaker 6: just look at what happened to Simon O'Connor last election. 785 00:49:21,333 --> 00:49:25,693 Speaker 6: Simon O'Connor is a genuine conservative. The liberal element wanted 786 00:49:25,773 --> 00:49:28,573 Speaker 6: him out, so he was pushed further down the party 787 00:49:28,613 --> 00:49:31,613 Speaker 6: list and they didn't defend him from act targeting him 788 00:49:31,653 --> 00:49:35,853 Speaker 6: and taking his parliamentary seat. Act as fiscally conservative but 789 00:49:36,013 --> 00:49:40,533 Speaker 6: socially as liberal as labor Greens. So no, the National 790 00:49:40,533 --> 00:49:42,213 Speaker 6: Party is far from conservative. 791 00:49:43,933 --> 00:49:48,333 Speaker 2: I think that's endorsible. Paul writes at thirty six minutes 792 00:49:48,333 --> 00:49:51,733 Speaker 2: into the conversation with Peter Bagotian, he challenges the Free 793 00:49:51,773 --> 00:49:56,493 Speaker 2: Speech Union to initiate the process whereby New Zealand Herald 794 00:49:56,613 --> 00:50:01,053 Speaker 2: staff of the progressive left mindset are asked to come 795 00:50:01,093 --> 00:50:05,373 Speaker 2: forward to debate his writing partner James Lindsay. Having read 796 00:50:05,453 --> 00:50:10,293 Speaker 2: James Lindsay's book Cidical Theories, I would guarantee that the 797 00:50:10,333 --> 00:50:14,253 Speaker 2: New Zealand Herald's so called journalists would lose any debate 798 00:50:14,453 --> 00:50:18,133 Speaker 2: on issues that legacy media have been parroting as being 799 00:50:18,213 --> 00:50:24,693 Speaker 2: beyond debate. A prime example is the biology of sex. Therefore, therefore, 800 00:50:24,853 --> 00:50:27,813 Speaker 2: if some at the New Zealand Herald is shown to 801 00:50:27,813 --> 00:50:31,093 Speaker 2: me entirely without foundation for their argument, that is a 802 00:50:31,133 --> 00:50:35,253 Speaker 2: good thing as a step toward truce. Another great takeaway 803 00:50:35,293 --> 00:50:38,693 Speaker 2: from the podcast was Peter's unsolicited advice not to let 804 00:50:38,813 --> 00:50:42,093 Speaker 2: large numbers of unschooled muslim Men in the country. I 805 00:50:42,133 --> 00:50:45,293 Speaker 2: agree with Peter Bagosi in one hundred percent on that 806 00:50:45,493 --> 00:50:50,973 Speaker 2: strident but prescient advice. Well that you know you would 807 00:50:50,973 --> 00:50:54,973 Speaker 2: have been tagged a racist at some stage and probably 808 00:50:55,053 --> 00:50:58,053 Speaker 2: you still still will be by some, but that is 809 00:50:58,133 --> 00:51:00,693 Speaker 2: catching on around the world because people are realizing the 810 00:51:00,933 --> 00:51:02,453 Speaker 2: stupidity of the past. 811 00:51:03,413 --> 00:51:07,533 Speaker 6: Clayton Jin says an interview between Peter Bagotian and Douglas Murray, 812 00:51:07,573 --> 00:51:09,893 Speaker 6: they were both asked what we can do to push 813 00:51:09,933 --> 00:51:15,253 Speaker 6: back against woke ideology. Peter's answer was show up. You 814 00:51:15,333 --> 00:51:17,253 Speaker 6: have to show up, and you have to pay attention, 815 00:51:17,493 --> 00:51:20,333 Speaker 6: and you have to really understand what people are talking about. 816 00:51:20,893 --> 00:51:23,053 Speaker 6: I would say the first thing to do is don't 817 00:51:23,093 --> 00:51:27,053 Speaker 6: even challenge at all, Just ask questions, what do you 818 00:51:27,173 --> 00:51:29,893 Speaker 6: mean when you use the word equity? What does this 819 00:51:30,013 --> 00:51:34,373 Speaker 6: mean to have an inclusive space? And Jin says, think 820 00:51:34,453 --> 00:51:36,573 Speaker 6: back to the power of a simple question like what 821 00:51:36,653 --> 00:51:42,173 Speaker 6: does a woman? From Matt Walsh's groundbreaking documentary And just recently, 822 00:51:42,213 --> 00:51:45,773 Speaker 6: I witnessed the power of showing up and speaking truth 823 00:51:45,813 --> 00:51:48,373 Speaker 6: to power. And Jade Vance gave one of the best 824 00:51:48,573 --> 00:51:53,213 Speaker 6: speeches in recent memory at the Munich Security Conference. Knowing 825 00:51:53,253 --> 00:51:55,133 Speaker 6: you late, and I'm quite certain you'd have watched this 826 00:51:55,213 --> 00:51:58,293 Speaker 6: in his entirety, and then he goes on. Jing goes 827 00:51:58,333 --> 00:52:02,813 Speaker 6: on to give us some of the zingers from his speech, 828 00:52:05,373 --> 00:52:08,093 Speaker 6: and then he says, Jadie Vance's courageous speech is a 829 00:52:08,133 --> 00:52:11,973 Speaker 6: sign that Trump is also making America gutsy again. Boy, 830 00:52:12,013 --> 00:52:14,533 Speaker 6: I wish we have more leaders with such steely spines 831 00:52:14,573 --> 00:52:17,453 Speaker 6: in New Zealand. Can only think of a handful currently 832 00:52:17,493 --> 00:52:22,533 Speaker 6: in New Zealand David Seymour, Shane Jones and Winston Peters. 833 00:52:23,733 --> 00:52:26,053 Speaker 2: Jin Maybe you should give some thought to following in 834 00:52:26,093 --> 00:52:30,773 Speaker 2: their footsteps. You are quite erudite after all, so from Dave, 835 00:52:32,013 --> 00:52:35,293 Speaker 2: looking at recent polls and the resilience of the left 836 00:52:35,453 --> 00:52:39,573 Speaker 2: to retain support is worthy of more understanding. There is 837 00:52:39,613 --> 00:52:42,733 Speaker 2: a massive tsunami of young that have checked out of 838 00:52:42,893 --> 00:52:45,813 Speaker 2: owning homes and will start to have more and more 839 00:52:45,813 --> 00:52:49,013 Speaker 2: control at the ballot box and to change how wealth 840 00:52:49,093 --> 00:52:54,213 Speaker 2: is distributed. The younger voting bloc and compliant politicians will 841 00:52:54,293 --> 00:52:58,213 Speaker 2: slowly but surely win in their quest to even the 842 00:52:58,253 --> 00:53:01,653 Speaker 2: playing field and get back at those boomers and the 843 00:53:01,733 --> 00:53:05,813 Speaker 2: lucky generations that have gained unusual wealth by sitting in 844 00:53:05,893 --> 00:53:09,533 Speaker 2: family homes. It would be interesting to hear about this 845 00:53:09,733 --> 00:53:15,373 Speaker 2: generational divide at how the young will exact their revenge 846 00:53:15,733 --> 00:53:18,693 Speaker 2: and then and then includes a YouTube that I haven't 847 00:53:18,693 --> 00:53:20,893 Speaker 2: had a chance to look at. Dave. Everything that you 848 00:53:20,973 --> 00:53:25,373 Speaker 2: say is relevant is my major comment. But I'm not 849 00:53:25,453 --> 00:53:28,333 Speaker 2: sure that it will shake out quite the way that 850 00:53:28,373 --> 00:53:30,813 Speaker 2: you've suggested that I'm keeping my fingers crossed. 851 00:53:31,973 --> 00:53:35,493 Speaker 6: Lighton Marx says what a powerful and most honest appraisal 852 00:53:35,573 --> 00:53:39,333 Speaker 6: by Peter bagoshiin finally someone has spoken truth to truth. 853 00:53:39,933 --> 00:53:42,853 Speaker 6: We've elevated Maray to a platform that is false and 854 00:53:42,893 --> 00:53:47,333 Speaker 6: based on false pretenses. Think four million dollars for cowie 855 00:53:47,333 --> 00:53:51,053 Speaker 6: trees and whale songs. The way Mary have been elevated 856 00:53:51,133 --> 00:53:54,533 Speaker 6: is all fake and a huge service to the entire 857 00:53:54,773 --> 00:54:00,333 Speaker 6: New Zealand population. Meritocracy. Positive thought with positive action is 858 00:54:00,373 --> 00:54:04,333 Speaker 6: the only way forward for any individual anywhere, and yes, 859 00:54:04,453 --> 00:54:07,133 Speaker 6: opportunity and good luck have their place, but that only 860 00:54:07,173 --> 00:54:10,413 Speaker 6: materializes when one has put in their own effort first, 861 00:54:10,853 --> 00:54:14,253 Speaker 6: not from a handout, not from a victim mentality, not 862 00:54:14,333 --> 00:54:18,413 Speaker 6: from a grievance they were never part of, etc. I 863 00:54:18,453 --> 00:54:22,053 Speaker 6: loved his position on calling out woke corporates that only 864 00:54:22,213 --> 00:54:26,373 Speaker 6: reinforce this discrimination that makes all of them complicit in 865 00:54:26,493 --> 00:54:30,653 Speaker 6: prolonging and encouraging division based on race. This does not 866 00:54:30,893 --> 00:54:33,773 Speaker 6: assist our country in any way and only makes them 867 00:54:33,773 --> 00:54:36,613 Speaker 6: complicit in the determined attempt for the downfall of New 868 00:54:36,693 --> 00:54:40,173 Speaker 6: Zealand Society inc. They are a lighter to the fire 869 00:54:40,213 --> 00:54:43,973 Speaker 6: of BS. Time to name and shame exactly like Peter 870 00:54:44,093 --> 00:54:45,733 Speaker 6: has stated, that's from Mark. 871 00:54:46,133 --> 00:54:49,173 Speaker 2: Mark. I'll give you ten out of ten for that 872 00:54:49,253 --> 00:54:53,413 Speaker 2: is excellent. Now I'm not certain about how to pronounce 873 00:54:53,493 --> 00:55:02,653 Speaker 2: the name that I'm going CM is how I'll do it, ciam. Firstly, 874 00:55:02,933 --> 00:55:06,133 Speaker 2: I thoroughly enjoyed your latest podcast with Peter Bagotium, and 875 00:55:06,213 --> 00:55:09,013 Speaker 2: I found what he had to say on the culture 876 00:55:09,133 --> 00:55:12,813 Speaker 2: being of detriment to itself to be one hundred percent 877 00:55:12,853 --> 00:55:17,693 Speaker 2: on Mark. Myself being part Mary, it is unfortunately something 878 00:55:18,053 --> 00:55:21,093 Speaker 2: I've had to come to grips with, particularly when listening 879 00:55:21,093 --> 00:55:24,693 Speaker 2: to the likes of Thomas Soul or even doctor Jordan Peterson. 880 00:55:25,573 --> 00:55:28,693 Speaker 2: There is a lot of victim mentality which seems to 881 00:55:28,693 --> 00:55:33,533 Speaker 2: get passed down from generation to generation. Thankfully, in my 882 00:55:33,653 --> 00:55:37,333 Speaker 2: family we have never taken to this sort of blame game, 883 00:55:37,413 --> 00:55:41,653 Speaker 2: the beggar type compensation mentality, and I promise you my 884 00:55:41,773 --> 00:55:45,213 Speaker 2: grandmother will be rolling in the grave. I also agree 885 00:55:45,253 --> 00:55:47,973 Speaker 2: with your correspondent that it is time to get doctor 886 00:55:47,973 --> 00:55:52,493 Speaker 2: Guy Hatchett back on in regards to GMO and the 887 00:55:52,653 --> 00:55:56,453 Speaker 2: deregulation of biotechnology. This is something that I am keeping 888 00:55:56,493 --> 00:55:59,973 Speaker 2: a very close eye on, but unfortunately new was coming. 889 00:56:00,053 --> 00:56:04,813 Speaker 2: If National and ACT were to be elected into parliament that, unfortunately, 890 00:56:05,013 --> 00:56:08,173 Speaker 2: it would be only a matter of time. As for 891 00:56:08,453 --> 00:56:11,893 Speaker 2: those of us paying attention saw them campaign and promote 892 00:56:11,893 --> 00:56:16,693 Speaker 2: the idea leading up to the election. See I wonder 893 00:56:16,893 --> 00:56:21,853 Speaker 2: why you think that some National in particular and ACT 894 00:56:22,053 --> 00:56:25,213 Speaker 2: if you like, are so into this in the promotional way. 895 00:56:25,613 --> 00:56:27,773 Speaker 2: I wonder why you think that, and I'd love to 896 00:56:27,813 --> 00:56:29,453 Speaker 2: hear your reason. 897 00:56:30,173 --> 00:56:33,173 Speaker 6: Layton John says, your guest Peter Bagostian had a very 898 00:56:33,213 --> 00:56:38,413 Speaker 6: weakned even hypocritical argument regarding blasphemy laws for Islam and 899 00:56:38,493 --> 00:56:41,653 Speaker 6: not for other religions. It's the old adage of rules 900 00:56:41,693 --> 00:56:44,213 Speaker 6: for thee but not for me. You were right to 901 00:56:44,253 --> 00:56:46,813 Speaker 6: point out that it was a cowardly stance to take, 902 00:56:46,933 --> 00:56:49,413 Speaker 6: and that's why we have the problem in the first place. 903 00:56:49,813 --> 00:56:51,973 Speaker 2: That's from John John. I'm going to go back and 904 00:56:52,013 --> 00:56:53,613 Speaker 2: have a listen if I get a chance. But I'll 905 00:56:53,653 --> 00:56:54,253 Speaker 2: make a chance. 906 00:56:54,933 --> 00:56:59,533 Speaker 6: Clayton Nathan says, countries that have taken advantage of the US, 907 00:56:59,653 --> 00:57:02,333 Speaker 6: and why wouldn't they have been doing it for so long? 908 00:57:02,373 --> 00:57:05,973 Speaker 6: That it's become normal to them, and often these countries 909 00:57:06,013 --> 00:57:09,813 Speaker 6: also hold anti US sentiment and don't hide it. Therefore, 910 00:57:09,813 --> 00:57:13,053 Speaker 6: Trump's efforts to realign the measure to balance in US's 911 00:57:13,253 --> 00:57:17,533 Speaker 6: favor and why wouldn't he and stop pandering to unthankful 912 00:57:17,573 --> 00:57:21,373 Speaker 6: gift takers, will have some international growing pains as the 913 00:57:21,413 --> 00:57:26,653 Speaker 6: more fair normal for the US is attempted. That's from 914 00:57:26,733 --> 00:57:27,653 Speaker 6: Nathan the end. 915 00:57:28,213 --> 00:57:31,653 Speaker 2: Nathan Well said, there's plenty of people winging about it, 916 00:57:31,733 --> 00:57:33,653 Speaker 2: plenty of people don't understand it. I was reading some 917 00:57:33,733 --> 00:57:38,813 Speaker 2: fascinating stuff earlier today with regard to Well that the 918 00:57:38,933 --> 00:57:43,253 Speaker 2: changing approach or the changed approach in many cases. Now 919 00:57:43,253 --> 00:57:46,093 Speaker 2: I've saved this one till last, and it's very good 920 00:57:46,133 --> 00:57:49,653 Speaker 2: reason for alegency, but I'm going to include it because 921 00:57:49,773 --> 00:57:54,053 Speaker 2: I know that there is an issue here that is 922 00:57:54,093 --> 00:57:56,613 Speaker 2: not isolated but deserves sharing. 923 00:57:56,853 --> 00:58:00,293 Speaker 6: See you later, off, I've got things to do. Thanks 924 00:58:00,293 --> 00:58:00,813 Speaker 6: for having me. 925 00:58:01,333 --> 00:58:06,533 Speaker 2: You're fired. Don't come back till next week. It starts 926 00:58:06,533 --> 00:58:10,253 Speaker 2: this way and missus producer. I hope twenty twenty five 927 00:58:10,293 --> 00:58:13,973 Speaker 2: has started off well for you guys. Unfortunately I start 928 00:58:13,973 --> 00:58:17,773 Speaker 2: with a winge. My elderly mother ninety three has had 929 00:58:17,853 --> 00:58:21,173 Speaker 2: leg ulcers for a year after a skin cancer was removed. 930 00:58:21,773 --> 00:58:25,653 Speaker 2: It was benign and only just recently healed. But she 931 00:58:25,813 --> 00:58:29,053 Speaker 2: has since had a small tree branch stabbed the same 932 00:58:29,093 --> 00:58:33,413 Speaker 2: spot of her leg, which has started heading in the 933 00:58:33,413 --> 00:58:36,853 Speaker 2: same direction with an ulcer by the look of By 934 00:58:36,893 --> 00:58:38,493 Speaker 2: the look of it, now, this is the reason that 935 00:58:38,853 --> 00:58:42,293 Speaker 2: I'm sorry that missus p has departed, because you might 936 00:58:42,333 --> 00:58:44,733 Speaker 2: recall that last year she was the year before even 937 00:58:44,973 --> 00:58:48,093 Speaker 2: I think it was in November on Melbourne Cup Day. 938 00:58:48,733 --> 00:58:51,773 Speaker 2: She was mugging about in the mooching about which is 939 00:58:51,773 --> 00:58:55,213 Speaker 2: a favorite term of hers, in the garden and stabbed 940 00:58:55,213 --> 00:58:59,293 Speaker 2: her leg on something quite quite sharp. It was a 941 00:58:59,293 --> 00:59:02,973 Speaker 2: tree stump and was hidden in grass and it was 942 00:59:03,053 --> 00:59:06,853 Speaker 2: up to the al and she was hobbling around for 943 00:59:06,973 --> 00:59:13,773 Speaker 2: quite a while. Anyway back to Chris's letter, but she 944 00:59:13,853 --> 00:59:16,213 Speaker 2: has since had a small tree branch stabbed the same 945 00:59:16,253 --> 00:59:18,973 Speaker 2: spot of her leg, which has started heading in the 946 00:59:18,973 --> 00:59:21,373 Speaker 2: same direction with an ulcer by the look of him. 947 00:59:22,133 --> 00:59:24,373 Speaker 2: She has a nurse come to her house and dressed 948 00:59:24,413 --> 00:59:26,973 Speaker 2: the wound a couple of times a week. They have 949 00:59:27,093 --> 00:59:32,133 Speaker 2: recommended to use antibiotics and took photos of the site 950 00:59:32,653 --> 00:59:35,453 Speaker 2: to send to the doctor. So she could get antibiotics 951 00:59:35,493 --> 00:59:39,373 Speaker 2: and a swab without a visit to the doctors. However, 952 00:59:40,173 --> 00:59:42,733 Speaker 2: the home visit nurses can't do the swab for some 953 00:59:42,933 --> 00:59:46,453 Speaker 2: unknown reason. They can dress the wound, touch the wound, 954 00:59:46,733 --> 00:59:49,173 Speaker 2: but not swab it. So they arranged for it to 955 00:59:49,213 --> 00:59:52,333 Speaker 2: be done at lab tests in Brown's Bay. So off 956 00:59:52,333 --> 00:59:54,333 Speaker 2: we went to the lab test and after about forty 957 00:59:54,333 --> 00:59:58,133 Speaker 2: five minutes we were seen, Oh but wait, they couldn't 958 00:59:58,173 --> 01:00:00,373 Speaker 2: do the swab either, and it formed me that I 959 01:00:00,493 --> 01:00:02,933 Speaker 2: had to do it and wanted me to go into 960 01:00:02,973 --> 01:00:06,133 Speaker 2: the toilet to do it. After letting them know that 961 01:00:06,213 --> 01:00:09,533 Speaker 2: this wasn't happening and staying in the blood test room, 962 01:00:09,693 --> 01:00:12,653 Speaker 2: I had no choice but to undress her wound and 963 01:00:12,853 --> 01:00:16,133 Speaker 2: take the swab myself. So the end result is two 964 01:00:16,213 --> 01:00:19,053 Speaker 2: lots of trained urses can't do a swab but can 965 01:00:19,213 --> 01:00:22,493 Speaker 2: touch blood, et cetera, but an untrained member of the 966 01:00:22,493 --> 01:00:24,893 Speaker 2: public can and they wanted to be done in an 967 01:00:25,013 --> 01:00:29,653 Speaker 2: unhygienic area like a public toilet. I am flabbergasted. Even 968 01:00:29,693 --> 01:00:32,253 Speaker 2: after all my years of hospital stuff with my kids, 969 01:00:32,613 --> 01:00:35,973 Speaker 2: this is one of the stunning stories for me. Anyway. 970 01:00:36,093 --> 01:00:37,933 Speaker 2: That's my wins for the day, take care and all 971 01:00:37,933 --> 01:00:42,133 Speaker 2: the best for twenty twenty five. I relate to it, 972 01:00:42,213 --> 01:00:44,653 Speaker 2: you see, That's why I wanted to read the letter, 973 01:00:44,853 --> 01:00:51,053 Speaker 2: albeit little distasteful. I hope that the leg is healing 974 01:00:51,293 --> 01:00:55,173 Speaker 2: better than hoped for Chris, and thanks for the Thanks 975 01:00:55,213 --> 01:00:56,893 Speaker 2: for the note, and that will take us out for 976 01:00:56,973 --> 01:01:09,453 Speaker 2: the mail room for Percus two seventy two Layton Smith. 977 01:01:10,733 --> 01:01:14,613 Speaker 2: After a precedent setting seven year legal battle in federal court, 978 01:01:15,093 --> 01:01:18,013 Speaker 2: an historic ruling by the United States District Court of 979 01:01:18,053 --> 01:01:22,413 Speaker 2: the Northern District of California has ordered the US Environmental 980 01:01:22,453 --> 01:01:27,413 Speaker 2: Protection Agency, the EPA, to take regulatory action to eliminate 981 01:01:27,613 --> 01:01:30,973 Speaker 2: the unreasonable risk to the health of children posed by 982 01:01:31,013 --> 01:01:37,893 Speaker 2: the practice of water fluoridation that in itself sounds incredibly condemnatory. 983 01:01:38,013 --> 01:01:40,453 Speaker 2: The verdict is a significant loss for the EPA and 984 01:01:40,493 --> 01:01:43,853 Speaker 2: the promoters of fluoridation like the American Dental Association and 985 01:01:43,893 --> 01:01:47,533 Speaker 2: the US Set of for Disease Control, because the court 986 01:01:47,613 --> 01:01:52,213 Speaker 2: found that their claims of safety made over seventy five 987 01:01:52,293 --> 01:01:56,453 Speaker 2: years were in fact not supported by evidence. Now. The 988 01:01:56,533 --> 01:01:59,773 Speaker 2: lawsuit was brought under the Toxic Substances Control Act of 989 01:02:00,813 --> 01:02:04,653 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six. Michael Connett, a partner at the law 990 01:02:04,693 --> 01:02:07,893 Speaker 2: firm Siri and Glimstad, and the lead attorney for the 991 01:02:07,933 --> 01:02:11,893 Speaker 2: group's who bought the lawsuit, said the law now requires EPA, 992 01:02:12,093 --> 01:02:16,093 Speaker 2: the Environmental Protection Agency, to take action to remove the 993 01:02:16,253 --> 01:02:21,813 Speaker 2: risk of fluoride. Michael, welcome to the podcast. Very good 994 01:02:21,853 --> 01:02:24,933 Speaker 2: have you here. First question, are you enjoying New Zealand? 995 01:02:26,093 --> 01:02:28,933 Speaker 5: I am very much, and thank you Laton for having 996 01:02:29,013 --> 01:02:29,933 Speaker 5: me pleasure. 997 01:02:30,253 --> 01:02:34,013 Speaker 2: This is a very complicated case, I believe for anybody 998 01:02:34,013 --> 01:02:38,053 Speaker 2: looking from the outside in to a different legal system 999 01:02:38,413 --> 01:02:42,613 Speaker 2: to the way the courts operates, it's complicated. So I 1000 01:02:42,653 --> 01:02:45,093 Speaker 2: start with how did you get involved in the first 1001 01:02:45,133 --> 01:02:46,093 Speaker 2: place and when was it. 1002 01:02:46,413 --> 01:02:49,453 Speaker 7: I got involved actually quite a long time ago, back 1003 01:02:49,493 --> 01:02:53,453 Speaker 7: in the late nineteen nineties when my town. I was 1004 01:02:53,493 --> 01:02:56,333 Speaker 7: going to college at the time, and my town was 1005 01:02:57,333 --> 01:03:03,013 Speaker 7: considering whether to stop the floridation program there, and my 1006 01:03:03,133 --> 01:03:07,133 Speaker 7: family and I started looking into the issue and we're 1007 01:03:07,173 --> 01:03:11,933 Speaker 7: surprised at some of what we were learning, and through 1008 01:03:12,853 --> 01:03:15,253 Speaker 7: one thing after another, I ended up getting, you know, 1009 01:03:15,333 --> 01:03:18,533 Speaker 7: actively involved and doing pretty extensive research. 1010 01:03:18,773 --> 01:03:21,093 Speaker 5: So I have been involved for quite some time. 1011 01:03:21,613 --> 01:03:24,853 Speaker 2: So you too, You took a personal position on this, 1012 01:03:25,293 --> 01:03:26,453 Speaker 2: not just a legal one. 1013 01:03:26,693 --> 01:03:27,173 Speaker 5: I did. 1014 01:03:27,293 --> 01:03:30,413 Speaker 7: I felt it was an issue that just wasn't getting 1015 01:03:30,453 --> 01:03:35,173 Speaker 7: the kind of attention and scrutiny that it deserved. You know, 1016 01:03:35,693 --> 01:03:37,653 Speaker 7: I you know, I think that you know, with other 1017 01:03:37,773 --> 01:03:42,293 Speaker 7: environmental toxic ins like pesticides or genetically modified foods, I 1018 01:03:42,333 --> 01:03:46,773 Speaker 7: felt that there was pretty good representation out there for 1019 01:03:46,773 --> 01:03:51,813 Speaker 7: for you know, environmental groups or citizen groups addressing the issues. 1020 01:03:51,893 --> 01:03:58,333 Speaker 7: I felt that with fluoride we needed more representation. I 1021 01:03:58,373 --> 01:04:00,613 Speaker 7: felt it was it was an issue that deserved and 1022 01:04:00,733 --> 01:04:03,013 Speaker 7: needed more scrutiny, and I felt that I could play 1023 01:04:03,013 --> 01:04:04,413 Speaker 7: a role in doing so. 1024 01:04:05,053 --> 01:04:08,813 Speaker 2: What was the situation publicly in those days? Was there 1025 01:04:08,893 --> 01:04:09,933 Speaker 2: any interest in it? 1026 01:04:12,613 --> 01:04:15,853 Speaker 7: Yes, I'm certainly not as much interest as we have 1027 01:04:16,133 --> 01:04:20,133 Speaker 7: seen over the past. You know, four or five months 1028 01:04:20,173 --> 01:04:23,453 Speaker 7: since the court's ruling, we have certainly seen in the 1029 01:04:23,533 --> 01:04:28,813 Speaker 7: United States a degree of media interest that I've never 1030 01:04:28,853 --> 01:04:33,813 Speaker 7: seen before. It has become a point of national discussion 1031 01:04:33,893 --> 01:04:37,773 Speaker 7: in the country, and so that has been unique. 1032 01:04:38,093 --> 01:04:39,933 Speaker 2: I'm surprised you found the time to come down here 1033 01:04:39,973 --> 01:04:43,173 Speaker 2: so quickly afterwards. I mean, this was this decision was 1034 01:04:43,213 --> 01:04:46,613 Speaker 2: handed down in September of last year, so four months 1035 01:04:46,653 --> 01:04:49,733 Speaker 2: ago or thereabouts. What else have you done since that 1036 01:04:49,813 --> 01:04:52,573 Speaker 2: decision was announced? And I mean this in the cibil 1037 01:04:52,693 --> 01:04:54,893 Speaker 2: vein that you're that you're following here. 1038 01:04:57,333 --> 01:04:57,653 Speaker 4: I have. 1039 01:04:57,893 --> 01:05:03,533 Speaker 7: I've actually been I actually just filed some new lawsuits 1040 01:05:03,653 --> 01:05:09,293 Speaker 7: on fluoride, but this time not against the government but 1041 01:05:09,453 --> 01:05:15,573 Speaker 7: against some of the manufacturers of floridated dental products. And 1042 01:05:15,693 --> 01:05:19,733 Speaker 7: to be clear, these lawsuits are not challenging whether we 1043 01:05:19,773 --> 01:05:22,813 Speaker 7: should have Florida dental products. I don't dispute that, because 1044 01:05:22,853 --> 01:05:28,573 Speaker 7: I think Florida toothpaste can provide an important benefit to teeth. 1045 01:05:29,773 --> 01:05:35,613 Speaker 7: But the lawsuits are addressing some of the deceptive advertising 1046 01:05:35,853 --> 01:05:41,293 Speaker 7: for these products, where they are presented as being they're 1047 01:05:41,493 --> 01:05:45,173 Speaker 7: kind of targeted to very young children, preschool children, in 1048 01:05:45,293 --> 01:05:51,293 Speaker 7: ways that imply that they are like entirely harmless. In 1049 01:05:51,333 --> 01:05:54,493 Speaker 7: the United States, the products are sort of provided presented 1050 01:05:54,533 --> 01:06:00,853 Speaker 7: almost like they're candy, with cartoon packaging, bright colors, and 1051 01:06:00,973 --> 01:06:06,333 Speaker 7: candy flavoring. And what we're seeing is that many young 1052 01:06:06,453 --> 01:06:10,773 Speaker 7: children are you using far more of the products they 1053 01:06:10,813 --> 01:06:13,853 Speaker 7: than is safe. So that's what I've been focusing on, 1054 01:06:14,013 --> 01:06:18,853 Speaker 7: is trying to or with the goal being to sort 1055 01:06:18,893 --> 01:06:22,093 Speaker 7: of change some of the advertising around those products. 1056 01:06:23,013 --> 01:06:25,973 Speaker 2: There is so much to discuss with regard to this 1057 01:06:26,333 --> 01:06:29,373 Speaker 2: that we'll move around a little bit. The flu Ride 1058 01:06:29,413 --> 01:06:34,613 Speaker 2: Action Network's attorney, Michael Connat, said, the court has done 1059 01:06:34,733 --> 01:06:37,813 Speaker 2: what the EPA has long refused to do, applied EPA's 1060 01:06:37,933 --> 01:06:41,973 Speaker 2: risk assessment framework to fluoride. It's a historic decision, and 1061 01:06:42,053 --> 01:06:46,733 Speaker 2: as we await EPA's rulemaking proceeding policy, bakers would do 1062 01:06:46,853 --> 01:06:50,933 Speaker 2: well to well advised to ask, should we really be 1063 01:06:51,093 --> 01:06:57,413 Speaker 2: adding a neurotoxicant to our drinking water? That term neurotoxicant 1064 01:06:57,613 --> 01:07:00,853 Speaker 2: would strike fear into the the minds of many people, 1065 01:07:00,933 --> 01:07:01,413 Speaker 2: would it not. 1066 01:07:03,053 --> 01:07:08,533 Speaker 5: Well, I think it should lead to a real. 1067 01:07:10,373 --> 01:07:17,733 Speaker 7: Reconsideration of what we're doing with water fluoridation, because when 1068 01:07:17,773 --> 01:07:22,373 Speaker 7: we started this program about eighty years ago, it was 1069 01:07:22,413 --> 01:07:25,053 Speaker 7: supposed to be about the teeth and the teeth alone, 1070 01:07:25,573 --> 01:07:31,133 Speaker 7: and neurotoxicity was certainly not part of the bargain that 1071 01:07:31,213 --> 01:07:35,333 Speaker 7: we the public signed up for. But in this court 1072 01:07:35,413 --> 01:07:42,133 Speaker 7: case latent, the EPA did not dispute that fluoride is 1073 01:07:42,173 --> 01:07:49,093 Speaker 7: a neurotoxicant. The EPA accepted that at some level of exposure, 1074 01:07:49,333 --> 01:07:54,253 Speaker 7: fluoride will damage the brain. And what this case ultimately 1075 01:07:54,413 --> 01:08:00,213 Speaker 7: came down to was a dispute about what is that 1076 01:08:00,493 --> 01:08:06,653 Speaker 7: level where you go from safe to the brain to 1077 01:08:06,653 --> 01:08:11,053 Speaker 7: toxic to the brain, and that was ultimately the major 1078 01:08:11,173 --> 01:08:16,333 Speaker 7: point of contention. But as to whether fluoride damages the brain, 1079 01:08:17,133 --> 01:08:21,093 Speaker 7: there was no dispute. There was an acceptance that it does, 1080 01:08:21,733 --> 01:08:26,813 Speaker 7: and a chemical that damages the brain is called a neurotoxicant. 1081 01:08:27,093 --> 01:08:32,413 Speaker 2: Did the EPI do a good job of defending. 1082 01:08:32,333 --> 01:08:35,453 Speaker 5: I mean, I think they did what they could do. 1083 01:08:36,533 --> 01:08:40,653 Speaker 7: I certainly don't see a reason why the attorneys, the 1084 01:08:40,733 --> 01:08:46,773 Speaker 7: Department of Justice attorneys representing the agency. I don't see 1085 01:08:46,773 --> 01:08:50,173 Speaker 7: why they wouldn't have done everything they could do to 1086 01:08:50,213 --> 01:08:52,053 Speaker 7: defend the agency's position. 1087 01:08:54,093 --> 01:08:54,693 Speaker 5: They did. 1088 01:08:54,893 --> 01:09:01,293 Speaker 7: You know, retain some very high level scientists who have 1089 01:09:01,933 --> 01:09:06,333 Speaker 7: very impressive credentials to make the case for the EPA. 1090 01:09:07,053 --> 01:09:07,813 Speaker 5: I think that's. 1091 01:09:07,653 --> 01:09:12,493 Speaker 7: One of the strengths of this lawsuit is that you 1092 01:09:12,613 --> 01:09:16,413 Speaker 7: have a situation where you have a independent forum, namely 1093 01:09:16,613 --> 01:09:20,533 Speaker 7: the court, hearing not just one side of the issue, 1094 01:09:20,613 --> 01:09:24,853 Speaker 7: but both sides, and in a way where you could 1095 01:09:24,893 --> 01:09:29,613 Speaker 7: really vet what everybody is saying, and you can do 1096 01:09:29,693 --> 01:09:31,213 Speaker 7: so through cross examination. 1097 01:09:31,893 --> 01:09:33,973 Speaker 5: You know, there's a saying that. 1098 01:09:35,933 --> 01:09:42,413 Speaker 7: The crucible of cross examination is a very effective truth 1099 01:09:42,613 --> 01:09:48,213 Speaker 7: finding endeavor, and so I think the court had the 1100 01:09:48,253 --> 01:09:53,893 Speaker 7: benefit of extensive expert testimony, and in a context. 1101 01:09:53,453 --> 01:09:56,453 Speaker 5: Where every expert had to back up what they were saying. 1102 01:09:57,493 --> 01:10:01,933 Speaker 2: The legal side of this case is the one that 1103 01:10:02,293 --> 01:10:07,973 Speaker 2: intrigues me the most for for reasons that don't matter, 1104 01:10:10,053 --> 01:10:14,333 Speaker 2: but I'm wondering. I'm wondering, for instance, in that cross examination, 1105 01:10:15,413 --> 01:10:20,933 Speaker 2: did the defense did the the witnesses for the EPA 1106 01:10:21,173 --> 01:10:26,933 Speaker 2: did they well? Did they compound at all? 1107 01:10:27,333 --> 01:10:29,493 Speaker 5: What do you mean by that compound? 1108 01:10:29,693 --> 01:10:35,893 Speaker 2: Well? Did they get cornered and have to either admit 1109 01:10:36,173 --> 01:10:39,893 Speaker 2: or show serious doubt about the stunts that they were taking. 1110 01:10:42,893 --> 01:10:45,213 Speaker 5: Yes, I think I think they did. 1111 01:10:45,333 --> 01:10:49,573 Speaker 7: I think that, you know, certainly I had to press 1112 01:10:49,693 --> 01:10:54,133 Speaker 7: them at times to admit things that they weren't necessarily 1113 01:10:54,173 --> 01:10:58,973 Speaker 7: admitting upfront, and that includes Florid being a neurotoxicit. I mean, 1114 01:10:59,093 --> 01:11:04,973 Speaker 7: they weren't going into the trial sort of flagging, hey, 1115 01:11:05,013 --> 01:11:10,893 Speaker 7: we think florid's a neurotoxican. It was more me pushing them, 1116 01:11:11,093 --> 01:11:15,293 Speaker 7: showing them evidence and then them conceding, yes, you know, 1117 01:11:15,333 --> 01:11:19,933 Speaker 7: we accept that it is right. So yes, And that 1118 01:11:20,093 --> 01:11:25,413 Speaker 7: is again the crucible across the the emination and being able. 1119 01:11:25,093 --> 01:11:29,693 Speaker 5: To really vet what someone is saying on the stand. 1120 01:11:30,773 --> 01:11:35,373 Speaker 2: I am I've questioned for a long time. I've questioned myself, 1121 01:11:35,453 --> 01:11:39,453 Speaker 2: for instance, as to whether the court and the legal 1122 01:11:39,493 --> 01:11:44,413 Speaker 2: system is the appropriate place to make judgments on matters 1123 01:11:44,453 --> 01:11:51,413 Speaker 2: of science. And my approach is, my approach was formed 1124 01:11:52,093 --> 01:11:58,173 Speaker 2: specifically through climate change. When judges were making rulings, some 1125 01:11:58,213 --> 01:12:01,293 Speaker 2: of them some of them didn't the better judges, in 1126 01:12:01,333 --> 01:12:08,453 Speaker 2: my opinions, announced that they weren't proficient in adjudicating for 1127 01:12:08,453 --> 01:12:12,453 Speaker 2: for this particular sort of thing. Uh, and and and 1128 01:12:12,613 --> 01:12:17,253 Speaker 2: stood the case on its head uh, without coming to 1129 01:12:17,253 --> 01:12:23,653 Speaker 2: any conclusions, ruled it out. In other words, this particular 1130 01:12:23,733 --> 01:12:26,973 Speaker 2: judge would he what sort of bracket would he fall into? 1131 01:12:27,013 --> 01:12:27,693 Speaker 2: Do you think. 1132 01:12:29,013 --> 01:12:30,893 Speaker 5: So that? I think it's a very good question. Late 1133 01:12:30,893 --> 01:12:31,413 Speaker 5: And they. 1134 01:12:33,093 --> 01:12:36,853 Speaker 7: Let me start by just giving some context here to 1135 01:12:36,933 --> 01:12:40,933 Speaker 7: the statute the Toxic Substances Control Act. 1136 01:12:41,693 --> 01:12:44,493 Speaker 5: And Congress. 1137 01:12:45,213 --> 01:12:53,613 Speaker 7: Was concerned about the e p A not effectively exercising 1138 01:12:53,773 --> 01:13:00,013 Speaker 7: its authority to protect the public from the unreasonable risks 1139 01:13:00,133 --> 01:13:01,813 Speaker 7: posed by certain chemicals. 1140 01:13:02,653 --> 01:13:04,653 Speaker 5: And and there the. 1141 01:13:04,653 --> 01:13:11,333 Speaker 7: Courts have discussed how the the Citizen Petition Provision that 1142 01:13:11,373 --> 01:13:18,253 Speaker 7: we brought suit under was established as a check on 1143 01:13:18,533 --> 01:13:24,413 Speaker 7: bureaucratic lethargy. Where you have an agency that's not acting 1144 01:13:24,533 --> 01:13:30,213 Speaker 7: on you know, new science, or not not protecting the 1145 01:13:30,293 --> 01:13:35,133 Speaker 7: public from a clear and identifiable risk. And so what 1146 01:13:35,253 --> 01:13:43,133 Speaker 7: Congress did is they specifically set forth a provision that 1147 01:13:43,373 --> 01:13:52,373 Speaker 7: says the Court cannot defer to the EPA's position, that 1148 01:13:52,533 --> 01:13:58,013 Speaker 7: the Court has to look at the evidence anew so 1149 01:13:58,173 --> 01:14:03,093 Speaker 7: without deference to the agency. And again this is because 1150 01:14:03,293 --> 01:14:11,493 Speaker 7: Congress wanted a check where the agency. It wanted to 1151 01:14:11,653 --> 01:14:15,213 Speaker 7: check against an agency not doing its job. So if 1152 01:14:15,213 --> 01:14:18,413 Speaker 7: the agency is not doing its job, you know, a 1153 01:14:18,493 --> 01:14:22,533 Speaker 7: court that just rubber stamps to agencies position, you know, 1154 01:14:22,573 --> 01:14:27,253 Speaker 7: you're not going to have an effective check, right. And 1155 01:14:27,373 --> 01:14:29,493 Speaker 7: so what we had here, and this is one of 1156 01:14:29,533 --> 01:14:33,053 Speaker 7: the reasons why I really was attracted by this by 1157 01:14:33,093 --> 01:14:36,973 Speaker 7: this statute, is we had an opportunity to have an 1158 01:14:37,053 --> 01:14:43,973 Speaker 7: independent assessment by a neutral tribunal that has no stake 1159 01:14:44,013 --> 01:14:47,053 Speaker 7: in the game, right, whereas the EPA has you know, 1160 01:14:47,253 --> 01:14:51,653 Speaker 7: long held policy positions. And it's always been difficult to 1161 01:14:51,653 --> 01:14:56,133 Speaker 7: get the EPA to take the fluoride issue seriously. And 1162 01:14:56,333 --> 01:14:59,213 Speaker 7: so for me, as the Plainton's attorney, it was very 1163 01:14:59,253 --> 01:15:02,493 Speaker 7: attractive to have a forum where the court does not 1164 01:15:02,653 --> 01:15:07,093 Speaker 7: defer to the EPA. Now, going to your question. You know, 1165 01:15:07,173 --> 01:15:12,813 Speaker 7: it's certainly something that you know I can understand, Hey, 1166 01:15:12,853 --> 01:15:17,493 Speaker 7: this is a federal judge. Why is a federal judge, 1167 01:15:18,133 --> 01:15:23,053 Speaker 7: you know, making a decision like this? And shouldn't this 1168 01:15:23,173 --> 01:15:28,773 Speaker 7: be for the agency's experts to decide? And I can 1169 01:15:28,933 --> 01:15:34,933 Speaker 7: understand that point in principle. But again, the counter veiling 1170 01:15:35,093 --> 01:15:40,893 Speaker 7: point is where you have, say a captured agency or 1171 01:15:40,933 --> 01:15:49,253 Speaker 7: an agency that has allowed political references to subvert the science. 1172 01:15:51,173 --> 01:15:55,853 Speaker 7: Congress recognize that you need to empower the court to 1173 01:15:56,213 --> 01:16:00,613 Speaker 7: second to take a second look and a new look 1174 01:16:01,093 --> 01:16:03,053 Speaker 7: without deferring to the agency. 1175 01:16:05,253 --> 01:16:07,653 Speaker 2: So let me test this a little further. I'm not 1176 01:16:07,693 --> 01:16:19,813 Speaker 2: testing you, testing the system. If there were an activist 1177 01:16:20,973 --> 01:16:27,573 Speaker 2: judge sitting on the bench, what constraints might have might 1178 01:16:27,613 --> 01:16:31,813 Speaker 2: have been placed upon him that he would have recognized 1179 01:16:33,013 --> 01:16:40,013 Speaker 2: or she would have recognized as well, restraining that that 1180 01:16:40,093 --> 01:16:44,253 Speaker 2: particular judges approach to such things. In other words, if 1181 01:16:44,293 --> 01:16:46,893 Speaker 2: the judge thought this was a lot of rubbish and 1182 01:16:46,933 --> 01:16:49,133 Speaker 2: there was nothing wrong with flu ride, because we have 1183 01:16:49,293 --> 01:16:55,173 Speaker 2: the same we've had that same situation here, Ah, what 1184 01:16:55,173 --> 01:16:58,413 Speaker 2: would have what would have restrained that judge from simply 1185 01:16:58,693 --> 01:17:03,173 Speaker 2: tossing it out or just ruling the exact opposite to 1186 01:17:03,213 --> 01:17:10,813 Speaker 2: what Judge did by saying the opposite. 1187 01:17:09,613 --> 01:17:12,453 Speaker 5: That's a totally fair point. 1188 01:17:12,533 --> 01:17:16,733 Speaker 7: I do think there are judges who would not have 1189 01:17:17,013 --> 01:17:24,573 Speaker 7: had the type of patience and open mindedness that our judge, 1190 01:17:24,733 --> 01:17:29,933 Speaker 7: Judge Chen, showed, and I felt fortunate in this case 1191 01:17:29,973 --> 01:17:35,173 Speaker 7: to have such an intelligent judge as we had. Not 1192 01:17:35,253 --> 01:17:38,453 Speaker 7: all judges are built for this. I think some judges 1193 01:17:38,493 --> 01:17:42,213 Speaker 7: would look at this and feel intimidated. They would feel 1194 01:17:42,213 --> 01:17:48,653 Speaker 7: overwhelmed by the sheer amount of scientific data and conflicting 1195 01:17:49,053 --> 01:17:53,773 Speaker 7: expert testimony. And I think there is certainly a disposition 1196 01:17:54,253 --> 01:17:57,573 Speaker 7: out there by some judges to say, hey, this is 1197 01:17:58,013 --> 01:18:02,613 Speaker 7: above my pay grade and just want to defer to 1198 01:18:02,853 --> 01:18:06,733 Speaker 7: the government agency, right. I no doubt that there are 1199 01:18:06,773 --> 01:18:11,093 Speaker 7: many judges who would want to take that approach. But 1200 01:18:11,573 --> 01:18:16,653 Speaker 7: we fortunately had a judge, Judge Edward Chen, who is 1201 01:18:16,693 --> 01:18:22,613 Speaker 7: a judge nominated by Barack Obama, A well regarded jurist, 1202 01:18:24,493 --> 01:18:33,333 Speaker 7: a very grounded, a judge who really took the time 1203 01:18:34,533 --> 01:18:38,773 Speaker 7: to really consider the evidence. He didn't rush his decision late. 1204 01:18:39,053 --> 01:18:42,133 Speaker 7: I mean, we had a trial in the summer of 1205 01:18:42,213 --> 01:18:46,093 Speaker 7: twenty twenty. I felt to win very well for us. 1206 01:18:46,173 --> 01:18:51,093 Speaker 7: I felt very confident that we had prevailed, but the judge, 1207 01:18:51,853 --> 01:18:54,733 Speaker 7: who did express concern at that time that the evidence 1208 01:18:54,813 --> 01:18:59,173 Speaker 7: was very concerning to him, he nevertheless wanted to wait. 1209 01:18:59,293 --> 01:19:03,613 Speaker 7: He wanted to give the government more time to further 1210 01:19:03,813 --> 01:19:08,813 Speaker 7: consider the evidence on flooryde and IQ before he issued ruling. 1211 01:19:08,933 --> 01:19:12,173 Speaker 7: So we ended up putting the case on hold for 1212 01:19:12,253 --> 01:19:17,173 Speaker 7: over two years to allow us a separate government agency 1213 01:19:17,253 --> 01:19:22,253 Speaker 7: called the National Toxicology Program to further way in on 1214 01:19:22,333 --> 01:19:27,613 Speaker 7: this question of fluoride and neurotoxicity. So this judge really 1215 01:19:27,733 --> 01:19:32,613 Speaker 7: took his time and gave the government ample opportunity to 1216 01:19:32,813 --> 01:19:37,333 Speaker 7: really provide its input, and it was frustrating at times 1217 01:19:37,373 --> 01:19:41,213 Speaker 7: for me as the plane's attorney. But I just I 1218 01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:44,893 Speaker 7: want to emphasize that because this judge did not rush 1219 01:19:44,933 --> 01:19:48,133 Speaker 7: into this to the decision and really took his time 1220 01:19:48,173 --> 01:19:50,253 Speaker 7: and was thorough in what he did. 1221 01:19:50,733 --> 01:19:56,493 Speaker 2: When was fluoride decided as a neurotoxicity, was it two 1222 01:19:56,533 --> 01:19:57,133 Speaker 2: thousand and six? 1223 01:19:58,293 --> 01:20:00,893 Speaker 7: Well, in terms of In two thousand and six, the 1224 01:20:01,013 --> 01:20:04,093 Speaker 7: National Research Council, which is part of the National Academy 1225 01:20:04,093 --> 01:20:08,173 Speaker 7: of Sciences in the United States, issued an extensive report 1226 01:20:08,533 --> 01:20:13,693 Speaker 7: reviewing the toxicology of fluoride and in that report, the 1227 01:20:14,533 --> 01:20:21,933 Speaker 7: NRC did find that in animal studies, fluoride damages to brain. 1228 01:20:22,093 --> 01:20:24,893 Speaker 7: So if you have a controlled laboratory experiment and you 1229 01:20:25,013 --> 01:20:29,693 Speaker 7: give an animal, you know, fluoride and you look under 1230 01:20:29,693 --> 01:20:32,973 Speaker 7: the microscope, you will see changes in the brain. And 1231 01:20:33,733 --> 01:20:37,453 Speaker 7: based on that animal data, the National Research Council called 1232 01:20:37,693 --> 01:20:43,293 Speaker 7: for research and human populations to better understand what impacts 1233 01:20:43,693 --> 01:20:47,413 Speaker 7: fluoride may be having. And at that time, there was 1234 01:20:47,493 --> 01:20:53,893 Speaker 7: studies linking fluoride to reduce IQ in some human studies, 1235 01:20:54,013 --> 01:21:00,013 Speaker 7: although the studies were methodologically somewhat weak, but the NRC 1236 01:21:00,133 --> 01:21:03,613 Speaker 7: did call for more research to better understand the situation. 1237 01:21:04,493 --> 01:21:09,693 Speaker 7: And subsequent to that report, there have been many studies 1238 01:21:10,293 --> 01:21:16,373 Speaker 7: on fluoride and IQ in human populations, including most importantly, 1239 01:21:17,173 --> 01:21:21,653 Speaker 7: the National Institutes of Health in the United States has 1240 01:21:21,973 --> 01:21:26,493 Speaker 7: funded what are called birth cohort studies, and these studies 1241 01:21:26,533 --> 01:21:29,693 Speaker 7: have taken place in Mexico and Canada. And what they 1242 01:21:29,733 --> 01:21:33,333 Speaker 7: do is they get a group of pregnant moms and 1243 01:21:33,413 --> 01:21:36,373 Speaker 7: they measure the level of fluoride in the mom's urine, 1244 01:21:36,533 --> 01:21:39,933 Speaker 7: which is a measure of total florid exposure. And then 1245 01:21:39,973 --> 01:21:44,493 Speaker 7: when the children are born at various intervals ages three, four, 1246 01:21:45,053 --> 01:21:49,213 Speaker 7: six and twelve, they measure the child's IQ. And in 1247 01:21:49,253 --> 01:21:56,373 Speaker 7: these two NIH funded studies, they have found that the 1248 01:21:57,533 --> 01:22:03,653 Speaker 7: fluorid levels in the mom are correlated with the child's IQ. Namely, 1249 01:22:03,853 --> 01:22:08,253 Speaker 7: the more fluoride in the mom's system, the lower IQ 1250 01:22:08,413 --> 01:22:14,493 Speaker 7: you a child on average. Okay. And so those NIH 1251 01:22:14,573 --> 01:22:19,173 Speaker 7: funded studies were a very significant part of our case 1252 01:22:19,533 --> 01:22:22,693 Speaker 7: at trial, and we were fortunate enough to be able 1253 01:22:22,733 --> 01:22:26,853 Speaker 7: to call to the stand the scientists who are conducting 1254 01:22:26,893 --> 01:22:30,133 Speaker 7: those studies, so the court was able to hear their 1255 01:22:30,173 --> 01:22:31,613 Speaker 7: testimony directly. 1256 01:22:32,053 --> 01:22:36,573 Speaker 2: I'm looking at I'm looking at an article on just 1257 01:22:36,693 --> 01:22:42,693 Speaker 2: that actually, and I'm wondering the the relationship between the 1258 01:22:44,013 --> 01:22:48,613 Speaker 2: urine level and the child's IQ. How was that done 1259 01:22:48,733 --> 01:22:51,053 Speaker 2: over what period of time? How is it established? 1260 01:22:52,693 --> 01:22:55,773 Speaker 5: The measurement of florid and the urine or the measurement 1261 01:22:55,933 --> 01:22:56,853 Speaker 5: of IQ. 1262 01:22:56,773 --> 01:22:59,933 Speaker 2: The IQ or the relate and the relationship between the two. 1263 01:23:00,653 --> 01:23:05,293 Speaker 7: So they in the studies they would take, let's look 1264 01:23:05,333 --> 01:23:12,453 Speaker 7: at the Canadian study, each trimester they took a your example, 1265 01:23:12,493 --> 01:23:15,213 Speaker 7: from the mom, and then they measured the fluorid level 1266 01:23:15,333 --> 01:23:19,013 Speaker 7: in that urine sample. Okay, And then when the children 1267 01:23:19,093 --> 01:23:23,773 Speaker 7: turned four, they measured the child's IQ. And the the 1268 01:23:24,173 --> 01:23:28,213 Speaker 7: examiner who is doing the IQ study has no idea 1269 01:23:28,293 --> 01:23:31,213 Speaker 7: what the child's mom's floid level is. So it's a 1270 01:23:31,293 --> 01:23:36,653 Speaker 7: blinded examination, which is good. It reduces potential for bias, right. 1271 01:23:37,453 --> 01:23:43,293 Speaker 7: But what makes these studies robust and methodologically strong is 1272 01:23:43,493 --> 01:23:53,173 Speaker 7: that the the scientists also collected other data like the 1273 01:23:53,573 --> 01:24:01,493 Speaker 7: parent's income, the parents education. They measured other chemicals in 1274 01:24:01,573 --> 01:24:04,173 Speaker 7: the in the in the urine or the blood that 1275 01:24:04,253 --> 01:24:08,373 Speaker 7: are associated with reduced IQ, so they were able to 1276 01:24:08,373 --> 01:24:13,293 Speaker 7: to control for sort of the other key factors that 1277 01:24:13,333 --> 01:24:17,333 Speaker 7: we know can influence IQ. So they weren't just looking 1278 01:24:17,373 --> 01:24:20,653 Speaker 7: at fluoride and IQ. They were looking at the other 1279 01:24:20,813 --> 01:24:27,973 Speaker 7: factors that could potentially skew the association between fluorid and 1280 01:24:28,013 --> 01:24:30,853 Speaker 7: IQ because they wanted to make the association was not 1281 01:24:30,933 --> 01:24:37,173 Speaker 7: an artifact of some uncontrolled confounder. So at our trial, 1282 01:24:37,853 --> 01:24:43,333 Speaker 7: the EPA recognized and accepted that these birth cohort studies 1283 01:24:43,373 --> 01:24:46,093 Speaker 7: were well done and methodologically reliable. 1284 01:24:46,413 --> 01:24:49,773 Speaker 2: You put out a video, I gether, I haven't seen it, 1285 01:24:51,293 --> 01:24:56,333 Speaker 2: of ten facts, correct? I did, yes, yeah, And there 1286 01:24:56,413 --> 01:25:01,413 Speaker 2: is a response to it. Response to Michael Kunnitt's video 1287 01:25:01,493 --> 01:25:06,173 Speaker 2: of ten facts. Michael Kunnitt is an attorney, not a 1288 01:25:06,173 --> 01:25:14,133 Speaker 2: healthcare provider or expert. That first line of defense or attack, 1289 01:25:14,173 --> 01:25:17,373 Speaker 2: if you like, marks this whole thing as a failure 1290 01:25:17,373 --> 01:25:21,253 Speaker 2: to me. He frames the fluoridation issue around the premise 1291 01:25:21,293 --> 01:25:24,173 Speaker 2: that fluoridation is the process of adding a substance to 1292 01:25:24,893 --> 01:25:28,373 Speaker 2: water supplies in order to prevent dental disease. It is not. 1293 01:25:28,733 --> 01:25:32,693 Speaker 2: Fluoridation is based on the observation that a certain concentration 1294 01:25:32,893 --> 01:25:35,173 Speaker 2: level of a mineral which has been in water forever, 1295 01:25:35,533 --> 01:25:38,533 Speaker 2: the teeth of those ingesting that water are more resistant 1296 01:25:38,573 --> 01:25:42,173 Speaker 2: to a dental decay. Floridation simply adjusts the level of 1297 01:25:42,213 --> 01:25:46,093 Speaker 2: this existing mineral in water supplies to that level such 1298 01:25:46,413 --> 01:25:50,733 Speaker 2: that we will receive that benefit while strictly maintaining that 1299 01:25:51,053 --> 01:25:57,733 Speaker 2: concentration level well below the threshold of adverse effects. Now, 1300 01:25:58,213 --> 01:26:00,493 Speaker 2: I'd ask you to park that just for a moment. 1301 01:26:01,453 --> 01:26:04,813 Speaker 2: Take you back to, Well, this was published in twenty eighteen, 1302 01:26:04,933 --> 01:26:09,093 Speaker 2: so that's something that I must mention because time has 1303 01:26:09,133 --> 01:26:11,893 Speaker 2: moved on. But a couple of years before that, my 1304 01:26:11,933 --> 01:26:14,613 Speaker 2: memory serves me correctly, there was a debate going on 1305 01:26:14,933 --> 01:26:18,653 Speaker 2: here and the Prime Minister of the time, the Prime 1306 01:26:18,653 --> 01:26:24,333 Speaker 2: Minister's chief medical advisor science advisor, actually put on his 1307 01:26:24,413 --> 01:26:28,493 Speaker 2: most serious face and recorded a short video about the 1308 01:26:28,533 --> 01:26:34,293 Speaker 2: safety and the advantages of fluoride in the water. Would 1309 01:26:34,333 --> 01:26:38,773 Speaker 2: he do you think or anybody in his position need 1310 01:26:38,853 --> 01:26:43,693 Speaker 2: to adjust their attitude their position with what's gone between 1311 01:26:43,773 --> 01:26:46,093 Speaker 2: then and now scientifically? 1312 01:26:47,893 --> 01:26:52,093 Speaker 7: Absolutely, I mean to me, the answer is clear. I mean, 1313 01:26:52,213 --> 01:26:55,973 Speaker 7: you now have, as I mentioned just a few minutes ago, 1314 01:26:56,573 --> 01:27:02,133 Speaker 7: you have the emergence of high quality epidemiological studies linking 1315 01:27:02,533 --> 01:27:07,653 Speaker 7: the so called optimal levels of fluoride with reduced IQ. 1316 01:27:09,453 --> 01:27:13,493 Speaker 7: That's something that was not appreciated even as you know, 1317 01:27:13,733 --> 01:27:16,253 Speaker 7: ten years ago, we didn't have that type of data. 1318 01:27:16,853 --> 01:27:17,813 Speaker 5: So we now do. 1319 01:27:18,573 --> 01:27:21,533 Speaker 7: And if this is to be a science driven policy, 1320 01:27:21,893 --> 01:27:25,373 Speaker 7: you know, we need to policy should reflect changes in 1321 01:27:25,453 --> 01:27:29,853 Speaker 7: the science, right. We don't want our policies to become 1322 01:27:30,013 --> 01:27:38,013 Speaker 7: fossilized and immune to evolutions in our scientific understanding. And 1323 01:27:38,093 --> 01:27:41,133 Speaker 7: I think that is what has happened with water fluoridation. 1324 01:27:41,333 --> 01:27:43,813 Speaker 7: You know, we have this, there's been this sort of 1325 01:27:43,973 --> 01:27:47,933 Speaker 7: entrenched belief that the science was settled. You know, fifty 1326 01:27:48,013 --> 01:27:50,933 Speaker 7: years ago we know fluoridation is safe. You know, why 1327 01:27:50,973 --> 01:27:55,533 Speaker 7: are we even bothering discussing this. That kind of attitude 1328 01:27:56,133 --> 01:28:00,333 Speaker 7: is not is first off. I don't think it's very scientific, 1329 01:28:00,773 --> 01:28:05,613 Speaker 7: and it's we really need to be open to changes 1330 01:28:05,933 --> 01:28:10,613 Speaker 7: in the scientific understanding, and so we always should be 1331 01:28:10,733 --> 01:28:17,253 Speaker 7: questioning whether fluoridation still makes sense. And for a number 1332 01:28:17,293 --> 01:28:21,293 Speaker 7: of reasons, including the fact that we now know that 1333 01:28:21,453 --> 01:28:25,933 Speaker 7: fluoride does not need to be ingested for the benefit 1334 01:28:26,173 --> 01:28:30,053 Speaker 7: of reduced tooth decay, that the primary mechanism is topical, 1335 01:28:30,973 --> 01:28:35,573 Speaker 7: I think we really need to start moving away from 1336 01:28:35,773 --> 01:28:39,733 Speaker 7: water fluoridation and be focusing on other uses of fluoride 1337 01:28:40,173 --> 01:28:43,213 Speaker 7: to obtain this benefit of reduced tooth decay. 1338 01:28:43,933 --> 01:28:49,893 Speaker 2: I just want to insert this because it's appropriate your 1339 01:28:50,013 --> 01:28:54,893 Speaker 2: fact number six for infants fluoridated water provides no benefits, 1340 01:28:55,093 --> 01:28:58,853 Speaker 2: only risks, and the responses were put together by the 1341 01:28:58,893 --> 01:29:04,533 Speaker 2: American Fluoridation Society. Their response there is no valid, peer 1342 01:29:04,573 --> 01:29:08,533 Speaker 2: reviewed scientific evidence of any adverse effects on infants from 1343 01:29:08,733 --> 01:29:13,813 Speaker 2: optimally fluoridated and there's a word missing. I suspect water. 1344 01:29:14,733 --> 01:29:18,053 Speaker 2: Somehow it's been left out, probably by AI. So the 1345 01:29:18,093 --> 01:29:20,213 Speaker 2: point being that you have to have an open mind, 1346 01:29:20,373 --> 01:29:24,533 Speaker 2: and it is not just in this area, as I've 1347 01:29:24,573 --> 01:29:29,173 Speaker 2: hinted before, but in numerous other areas where living in 1348 01:29:29,213 --> 01:29:34,173 Speaker 2: the past has become a lockdown to well to development. 1349 01:29:35,213 --> 01:29:39,973 Speaker 7: Yes, I agree, And with respect to that particular point Layton, 1350 01:29:40,373 --> 01:29:45,893 Speaker 7: we know today that bottle fed babies who are provided 1351 01:29:45,933 --> 01:29:49,773 Speaker 7: with where their formula is mixed with fluoridated water, we 1352 01:29:49,893 --> 01:29:55,773 Speaker 7: know that they have an increased incidence of dental fluorosis 1353 01:29:55,813 --> 01:30:00,613 Speaker 7: on their permanent teeth. And dental fluorosis is a mineralization 1354 01:30:00,813 --> 01:30:07,173 Speaker 7: disorder of tooth enamel which is marked by increased ferocity 1355 01:30:07,333 --> 01:30:11,653 Speaker 7: of the enamel, of the subsurface enamel, and it results 1356 01:30:11,693 --> 01:30:15,133 Speaker 7: in staining visible staining of the enamel. So that is 1357 01:30:15,173 --> 01:30:19,093 Speaker 7: a biological effect that's occurring, and that is there's notice. 1358 01:30:19,133 --> 01:30:21,093 Speaker 7: I mean, there should be no dispute about that, because 1359 01:30:21,133 --> 01:30:24,573 Speaker 7: the science is pretty clear that fluoridated water can cause 1360 01:30:24,613 --> 01:30:29,373 Speaker 7: that for for infants. There's also and this was something 1361 01:30:29,413 --> 01:30:34,733 Speaker 7: that was discussed at length at our trial, there is 1362 01:30:35,053 --> 01:30:43,453 Speaker 7: research now from Canada linking fluoride exposure during infancy with 1363 01:30:43,613 --> 01:30:49,253 Speaker 7: reduced IQ, and there's at trial some of the experts 1364 01:30:49,293 --> 01:30:56,573 Speaker 7: discussed some of the biological basis for concern with fluoride 1365 01:30:57,333 --> 01:31:01,653 Speaker 7: and and the brain with respect to infants, and that's 1366 01:31:01,733 --> 01:31:07,893 Speaker 7: that the brain, both in the womb as well as 1367 01:31:07,973 --> 01:31:14,493 Speaker 7: during infancy, is undergoing rapid development, and an organ that's 1368 01:31:14,573 --> 01:31:21,613 Speaker 7: undergoing rapid development is more susceptible to suffering harm from 1369 01:31:21,653 --> 01:31:25,213 Speaker 7: a toxic exposure. It can lead to a permanent deficit. 1370 01:31:25,933 --> 01:31:29,133 Speaker 7: So there there is a vulnerability that comes from the 1371 01:31:29,133 --> 01:31:31,853 Speaker 7: fact that the brain is undergoing rapid development. 1372 01:31:32,493 --> 01:31:35,253 Speaker 5: And then you have a. 1373 01:31:35,253 --> 01:31:40,413 Speaker 7: Situation where the blood brain barrier, which is something that 1374 01:31:40,853 --> 01:31:44,293 Speaker 7: keeps toxic substances from getting into. 1375 01:31:44,053 --> 01:31:45,613 Speaker 5: The brain, which is a good thing. 1376 01:31:47,133 --> 01:31:51,613 Speaker 7: We don't want toxic chemicals getting into the brain. That 1377 01:31:51,653 --> 01:31:55,333 Speaker 7: blood brain barrier is not fully formed until about six 1378 01:31:55,453 --> 01:32:00,533 Speaker 7: months of age. So a baby that's exposed to a 1379 01:32:00,573 --> 01:32:04,453 Speaker 7: toxic element prior to about six months of age, there's 1380 01:32:04,493 --> 01:32:07,853 Speaker 7: a greater ability for that substance to get to the 1381 01:32:07,893 --> 01:32:12,933 Speaker 7: brain and so a potentially greater risk as a result. 1382 01:32:13,613 --> 01:32:16,213 Speaker 7: And then lastly, and this is one of the things 1383 01:32:16,213 --> 01:32:21,373 Speaker 7: that I think is very concerning, is with a baby. 1384 01:32:21,693 --> 01:32:27,013 Speaker 7: A breast fed baby has the lowest exposure to fluoride 1385 01:32:27,493 --> 01:32:30,653 Speaker 7: of all age groups in the population, and that's because 1386 01:32:30,693 --> 01:32:36,333 Speaker 7: breast milk contains very low amounts of fluoride. That and 1387 01:32:36,413 --> 01:32:40,333 Speaker 7: which I think is instructive because breast milk is typically 1388 01:32:40,413 --> 01:32:44,973 Speaker 7: where you see where breast milk typically has what you 1389 01:32:45,133 --> 01:32:47,933 Speaker 7: need for healthy development. Right, So the fact that it's 1390 01:32:48,093 --> 01:32:52,573 Speaker 7: missing from breast milk may offer some clues as to 1391 01:32:53,013 --> 01:32:57,573 Speaker 7: whether baby should be getting any fluoride, right, But when 1392 01:32:57,613 --> 01:33:01,773 Speaker 7: you bottle feed a baby with fluoridated water, you flip 1393 01:33:01,853 --> 01:33:04,973 Speaker 7: that situation on its head and you go from a 1394 01:33:05,013 --> 01:33:08,773 Speaker 7: situation where the baby is the lowest exposed member of 1395 01:33:08,813 --> 01:33:13,653 Speaker 7: the population to the highest exposed age group in the population. 1396 01:33:15,853 --> 01:33:19,853 Speaker 7: And that's because babies get all of their caloric intake 1397 01:33:20,213 --> 01:33:24,653 Speaker 7: from liquid from the from the formula, and that becomes 1398 01:33:24,693 --> 01:33:29,653 Speaker 7: a really significant source of exposure for them. And so 1399 01:33:30,653 --> 01:33:34,373 Speaker 7: I do think we need to be careful about exposing 1400 01:33:35,013 --> 01:33:39,253 Speaker 7: newborns to fluoridated water in their formula. It's it's clearly 1401 01:33:39,493 --> 01:33:44,973 Speaker 7: a susceptible population, and the core in our case recognize 1402 01:33:45,013 --> 01:33:46,933 Speaker 7: that and called attention to that. 1403 01:33:47,453 --> 01:33:51,453 Speaker 2: So, Michael, where does this go now from? From your perspective? 1404 01:33:51,893 --> 01:33:54,573 Speaker 2: Is there going to be or likely to be an appeal? 1405 01:33:56,013 --> 01:34:00,333 Speaker 7: Well, the EPA, in the final days of the Biden 1406 01:34:00,413 --> 01:34:05,733 Speaker 7: administration did announce that it intends to appeal the court's decision, 1407 01:34:06,973 --> 01:34:11,813 Speaker 7: So at present, that is my expectation that there will 1408 01:34:11,853 --> 01:34:18,653 Speaker 7: be an appeal. However, Robert Kennedy, who is under consideration 1409 01:34:18,893 --> 01:34:22,373 Speaker 7: to be the Secretary of the Department of Health and 1410 01:34:22,413 --> 01:34:28,533 Speaker 7: Human Services, has announced and made clear that if confirmed 1411 01:34:28,613 --> 01:34:33,493 Speaker 7: as secretary, he would take action to address the risks 1412 01:34:33,973 --> 01:34:41,333 Speaker 7: posed by water fluoridation. So my hope here is if 1413 01:34:41,453 --> 01:34:49,373 Speaker 7: Robert Kennedy is confirmed, that the EPA could reconsider and 1414 01:34:49,493 --> 01:34:56,413 Speaker 7: withdraw its appeal because there's nothing about the Biden administration's 1415 01:34:56,413 --> 01:35:01,173 Speaker 7: decision to appeal that is binding on the EPA now, 1416 01:35:01,573 --> 01:35:05,213 Speaker 7: so the EPA could decide overnight just to let it, 1417 01:35:05,453 --> 01:35:09,653 Speaker 7: to let it be and to not appeal. And so 1418 01:35:09,853 --> 01:35:15,813 Speaker 7: then once once, you know, assuming the EPA does not appeal, 1419 01:35:16,973 --> 01:35:20,373 Speaker 7: then we go into what's called a rule making proceeding, 1420 01:35:21,253 --> 01:35:27,373 Speaker 7: and under the court's order, the EPA needs to implement 1421 01:35:27,613 --> 01:35:33,413 Speaker 7: a rule or regulation that will address the risk posed 1422 01:35:33,413 --> 01:35:38,933 Speaker 7: by fluoridation, the neurological risk. And so, you know, my 1423 01:35:39,053 --> 01:35:43,573 Speaker 7: hope is that the EPA can do that relatively quickly, 1424 01:35:44,613 --> 01:35:48,373 Speaker 7: although I do have a concern based on past performance, 1425 01:35:49,053 --> 01:35:53,573 Speaker 7: that that process could take you know, some time, but 1426 01:35:54,533 --> 01:35:57,933 Speaker 7: you know, you know, it's anyone's guess at this point 1427 01:35:58,093 --> 01:36:00,293 Speaker 7: as to how much time it will take. 1428 01:36:00,693 --> 01:36:03,493 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about what sorts you 1429 01:36:03,573 --> 01:36:08,173 Speaker 2: might have about Kennedy and that position. Would I take 1430 01:36:08,173 --> 01:36:10,333 Speaker 2: it then that you would like to see him there appointed? 1431 01:36:10,493 --> 01:36:11,733 Speaker 4: I would? 1432 01:36:11,813 --> 01:36:14,013 Speaker 7: I know that you know, obviously people have you know, 1433 01:36:14,053 --> 01:36:17,253 Speaker 7: there's a lot of different policies that you know, Robert 1434 01:36:17,333 --> 01:36:21,853 Speaker 7: Kennedy has proposed, and I understand some people may not 1435 01:36:21,933 --> 01:36:27,413 Speaker 7: agree with all of them, but I certainly with respect 1436 01:36:27,413 --> 01:36:33,573 Speaker 7: to water fluoridation, I think that he would bring some needed. 1437 01:36:34,893 --> 01:36:39,293 Speaker 5: New thinking on this program, and I. 1438 01:36:39,213 --> 01:36:44,653 Speaker 7: Think that would be a good thing for bringing about, 1439 01:36:46,533 --> 01:36:51,773 Speaker 7: or rather in in ensuring that the policies with respect 1440 01:36:51,773 --> 01:36:58,093 Speaker 7: to flora better reflect the recent scientific developments. 1441 01:36:58,493 --> 01:37:01,173 Speaker 2: How much attention do you pay to the two shall 1442 01:37:01,213 --> 01:37:05,533 Speaker 2: we say, a broader a number of subjects, But in 1443 01:37:05,573 --> 01:37:11,213 Speaker 2: the category. 1444 01:37:09,293 --> 01:37:12,853 Speaker 5: Broader number of subjects, what are. 1445 01:37:12,773 --> 01:37:16,573 Speaker 2: You use well, scientific subject scientific matters that are that 1446 01:37:16,653 --> 01:37:20,173 Speaker 2: are debatable and being. 1447 01:37:20,013 --> 01:37:23,533 Speaker 5: Debated, like like what like the like vaccines. 1448 01:37:23,933 --> 01:37:28,293 Speaker 7: Yeah, well I would just say that I'm not you know, 1449 01:37:28,333 --> 01:37:32,653 Speaker 7: that goes beyond my body, you know, my my expertise, 1450 01:37:33,013 --> 01:37:36,973 Speaker 7: my knowledge. So I think any comments that I have 1451 01:37:37,093 --> 01:37:40,653 Speaker 7: on those other types of issues, I wouldn't really have 1452 01:37:40,853 --> 01:37:46,133 Speaker 7: much of an informed opinion. So it's you know, my 1453 01:37:46,133 --> 01:37:49,693 Speaker 7: my my area of expertise has been fluoride in some 1454 01:37:49,733 --> 01:37:53,693 Speaker 7: other toxic tort litigation, So I don't have much to 1455 01:37:53,813 --> 01:37:55,333 Speaker 7: add beyond that. 1456 01:37:55,893 --> 01:38:01,813 Speaker 2: Okay, So when the fluoride situation is, shall we say, rectified, 1457 01:38:03,493 --> 01:38:06,613 Speaker 2: on the presumption that it is, what would you be 1458 01:38:06,653 --> 01:38:08,493 Speaker 2: turning your attention to legally. 1459 01:38:10,213 --> 01:38:19,733 Speaker 7: Well, good question, I am uh. I have in my practice. 1460 01:38:19,813 --> 01:38:25,573 Speaker 7: I have represented people who have been harmed by various 1461 01:38:25,933 --> 01:38:32,253 Speaker 7: toxic chemicals, and something that you know, I expect I 1462 01:38:32,293 --> 01:38:33,173 Speaker 7: will do more of. 1463 01:38:34,973 --> 01:38:38,573 Speaker 5: I also have. I also represent. 1464 01:38:38,173 --> 01:38:43,893 Speaker 7: Actually latent right now, a woman who was injured in 1465 01:38:44,013 --> 01:38:49,653 Speaker 7: a COVID vaccine clinical trial by she was She was 1466 01:38:49,893 --> 01:38:54,893 Speaker 7: a volunteer in the Astrazenica clinical trial for the COVID 1467 01:38:56,013 --> 01:39:00,373 Speaker 7: and I represent her right now in a case against Astrasenica. 1468 01:39:02,093 --> 01:39:07,253 Speaker 7: So I am certainly interested in in potential litigation related 1469 01:39:07,293 --> 01:39:11,773 Speaker 7: to vaccines, and that's something I could see myself doing more. 1470 01:39:11,693 --> 01:39:14,053 Speaker 2: Of, just as a matter of interest. Let me quote 1471 01:39:14,093 --> 01:39:20,453 Speaker 2: you from an article that was published today. Science is 1472 01:39:20,453 --> 01:39:25,173 Speaker 2: one of humanity's greatest achievements. But it's not infallible. That's 1473 01:39:25,213 --> 01:39:28,133 Speaker 2: why it is science and not dogma, and is sadly 1474 01:39:28,173 --> 01:39:31,573 Speaker 2: not immune to the virus of corruption. For many decades, 1475 01:39:31,653 --> 01:39:36,333 Speaker 2: the mirror of sience of science has become increasingly blurred 1476 01:39:36,373 --> 01:39:41,013 Speaker 2: by a storm of vested interests, particularly when research and 1477 01:39:41,093 --> 01:39:44,773 Speaker 2: the communication of results are linked to large corporations. The 1478 01:39:44,813 --> 01:39:48,413 Speaker 2: British Medical Journal, one of the leading medical journals, published 1479 01:39:48,613 --> 01:39:53,173 Speaker 2: an article in twenty two on the illusion of evidence 1480 01:39:53,213 --> 01:39:57,813 Speaker 2: based medicine. As stated in its introductory sentence, the sordid 1481 01:39:57,853 --> 01:40:03,013 Speaker 2: scientific foundation claimed by medicine quote has been corrupted by 1482 01:40:03,053 --> 01:40:09,293 Speaker 2: corporate interests, failed regulation, and commercialization of academia. In this context, 1483 01:40:09,733 --> 01:40:15,573 Speaker 2: the authors assert that unconcerned governments and captured regulators are 1484 01:40:15,853 --> 01:40:19,773 Speaker 2: unlikely to initiate necessary change to remove research from industry 1485 01:40:19,813 --> 01:40:24,973 Speaker 2: altogether and clean up publishing models that depend on reprint revenue, 1486 01:40:25,093 --> 01:40:29,733 Speaker 2: on advertising and sponsorship revenue. We were warned a long 1487 01:40:29,773 --> 01:40:36,853 Speaker 2: time back. In two thousand and five the prestigious Plos Medicine, 1488 01:40:36,933 --> 01:40:40,053 Speaker 2: which is something I haven't heard of before. Actually, Plos 1489 01:40:40,573 --> 01:40:43,333 Speaker 2: published one of the most quoted scientific articles of the 1490 01:40:43,333 --> 01:40:47,253 Speaker 2: twenty first century with the remarkable title why most published 1491 01:40:47,253 --> 01:40:52,093 Speaker 2: research findings are false? Building on complex mathematical models, the 1492 01:40:52,093 --> 01:40:57,853 Speaker 2: renowned researcher John Ionidis reached the conclusion that most research 1493 01:40:57,933 --> 01:41:05,653 Speaker 2: findings are false for most research designs and for most fields. 1494 01:41:05,973 --> 01:41:07,493 Speaker 2: Anything you'd like to comment on with. 1495 01:41:07,453 --> 01:41:12,773 Speaker 7: That, p LS is the Public Library of Science Journal, 1496 01:41:14,533 --> 01:41:19,013 Speaker 7: And you know, the first thing I would say is 1497 01:41:19,093 --> 01:41:24,493 Speaker 7: science evolves and policies should as well, and we should 1498 01:41:24,853 --> 01:41:28,013 Speaker 7: there should be a degree of humility that we bring 1499 01:41:28,093 --> 01:41:33,053 Speaker 7: to the table with respect to policies. And I think 1500 01:41:33,133 --> 01:41:38,973 Speaker 7: when we become overly confident that policies which are should 1501 01:41:38,973 --> 01:41:41,973 Speaker 7: be based in science, and we be overly confident that 1502 01:41:42,053 --> 01:41:46,973 Speaker 7: the science is settled, we run risk of locking ourselves 1503 01:41:47,053 --> 01:41:54,333 Speaker 7: in to policies that may be outdated, unsafe, and ineffective. 1504 01:41:55,093 --> 01:41:58,333 Speaker 7: And I do think that is what we have with 1505 01:41:58,493 --> 01:42:05,773 Speaker 7: water fluoridation today. I think that we should really give 1506 01:42:06,133 --> 01:42:11,493 Speaker 7: further thought to what has been discovered on the dental 1507 01:42:11,613 --> 01:42:16,733 Speaker 7: side of this issue, which is that fluoride's predominant benefit 1508 01:42:16,933 --> 01:42:23,213 Speaker 7: to teeth comes from topical contact, not from ingestion. And 1509 01:42:23,253 --> 01:42:26,333 Speaker 7: now that we know that, I think it's important for 1510 01:42:26,413 --> 01:42:31,973 Speaker 7: us to really give more thought to focusing on fluoride 1511 01:42:32,093 --> 01:42:39,533 Speaker 7: toothpaste and not fluoride in the water, because with fluorinated water, 1512 01:42:40,693 --> 01:42:47,093 Speaker 7: you are obviously going to ingest fluoride every day, and 1513 01:42:47,133 --> 01:42:53,133 Speaker 7: it's the ingestion that poses the risks to health, and 1514 01:42:53,213 --> 01:42:56,973 Speaker 7: so obviously with our Courk case and the Core decision, 1515 01:42:58,013 --> 01:43:03,013 Speaker 7: you know, there is concern that fluorinated water can pose 1516 01:43:03,773 --> 01:43:09,893 Speaker 7: a risk of neurodevelopmental harm, of reduced IQ. That's a 1517 01:43:09,933 --> 01:43:14,453 Speaker 7: serious concern, you know, that's you know, affecting brain development 1518 01:43:14,573 --> 01:43:18,613 Speaker 7: is a serious matter, especially when the exposure is coming 1519 01:43:18,653 --> 01:43:24,733 Speaker 7: from our drinking water. And I think we have enough 1520 01:43:24,853 --> 01:43:28,733 Speaker 7: evidence to to today even if you don't think the 1521 01:43:28,773 --> 01:43:33,293 Speaker 7: evidence is if there is certainty, which and there's always 1522 01:43:33,493 --> 01:43:37,373 Speaker 7: uncertainty when we're dealing with risk assessment, when we're dealing 1523 01:43:37,413 --> 01:43:41,013 Speaker 7: with the impact of environmental chemicals, Okay, there's always a 1524 01:43:41,093 --> 01:43:45,053 Speaker 7: level of uncertainty. But even in the absence of certainty, 1525 01:43:47,453 --> 01:43:51,453 Speaker 7: I think we have enough evidence to want to move 1526 01:43:51,493 --> 01:43:56,653 Speaker 7: away from sort of this mass fluoridation paradigm where you 1527 01:43:56,853 --> 01:44:02,133 Speaker 7: have widespread ingestion of fluoride, because it's the ingestion that 1528 01:44:02,173 --> 01:44:04,453 Speaker 7: poses the risk and it's unnecessary. 1529 01:44:04,573 --> 01:44:09,093 Speaker 5: We don't need to be swallowing fluoride. So so that 1530 01:44:09,133 --> 01:44:13,413 Speaker 5: would be my main point here, Laton, is that it's 1531 01:44:13,493 --> 01:44:17,853 Speaker 5: not about whether your for fluoride or against fluoride. It's 1532 01:44:17,893 --> 01:44:22,413 Speaker 5: about whether this particular use of fluoride namely adding it 1533 01:44:22,453 --> 01:44:28,813 Speaker 5: to drinking water still makes sense and and and in 1534 01:44:28,853 --> 01:44:31,053 Speaker 5: my view, I don't think it does. I think we 1535 01:44:31,093 --> 01:44:34,933 Speaker 5: should be, you know, following the path of Europe, which 1536 01:44:35,013 --> 01:44:39,493 Speaker 5: has for the most part ended water fluoridation and has 1537 01:44:39,533 --> 01:44:42,493 Speaker 5: allowed people the right to go to their grocery store 1538 01:44:42,533 --> 01:44:45,853 Speaker 5: and buy fluoride and toothbased, brush it under teeth and 1539 01:44:45,893 --> 01:44:48,893 Speaker 5: spit it out. And I think that's the model that 1540 01:44:48,933 --> 01:44:52,693 Speaker 5: the United States and New Zealand should be doing as well. 1541 01:44:53,413 --> 01:44:56,133 Speaker 2: And I think that that was brilliantly stated. I can 1542 01:44:56,213 --> 01:44:58,773 Speaker 2: see why you why you succeeded in the case. 1543 01:44:59,933 --> 01:45:00,653 Speaker 5: Well, thank you. 1544 01:45:01,013 --> 01:45:03,573 Speaker 2: And at that point, I guess some we've we've covered 1545 01:45:03,573 --> 01:45:07,853 Speaker 2: pretty much everything that we are required to cover. I mean, 1546 01:45:09,173 --> 01:45:14,173 Speaker 2: we've covered everything that that is appropriate. And I wish 1547 01:45:14,173 --> 01:45:16,893 Speaker 2: you the very best for the rest of your stay. 1548 01:45:17,013 --> 01:45:19,093 Speaker 2: And I was going to say it'd be good to 1549 01:45:19,133 --> 01:45:21,613 Speaker 2: talk again, but well, I. 1550 01:45:21,573 --> 01:45:23,373 Speaker 5: Would be happy late in anytime. 1551 01:45:23,453 --> 01:45:27,573 Speaker 7: I've enjoyed our conversation because I enjoy your I enjoy 1552 01:45:27,653 --> 01:45:31,733 Speaker 7: the intellectual nature of your question. So if and when 1553 01:45:31,773 --> 01:45:35,653 Speaker 7: you were ever interested in talking about floride again, I 1554 01:45:35,653 --> 01:45:36,853 Speaker 7: would be happy to do so. 1555 01:45:37,373 --> 01:45:41,853 Speaker 2: Appreciate it. Thank you kindly, okay, thank you late, Thank 1556 01:45:41,853 --> 01:45:51,813 Speaker 2: you Michael Well. That takes us out for podcasts two 1557 01:45:51,933 --> 01:45:55,173 Speaker 2: seventy two. Got to say, I would have liked to 1558 01:45:55,213 --> 01:45:58,573 Speaker 2: have included some other matters, but you can't jam it 1559 01:45:58,613 --> 01:46:01,173 Speaker 2: all into one podcast. But don't worry. I'm going to 1560 01:46:01,213 --> 01:46:03,533 Speaker 2: hang on to it and it will find its way 1561 01:46:03,573 --> 01:46:07,013 Speaker 2: from my microphone to your device in the not too 1562 01:46:07,053 --> 01:46:10,133 Speaker 2: distant future, like to think next week actually, because it's 1563 01:46:10,533 --> 01:46:13,333 Speaker 2: it's worthy of it. If you would like to write 1564 01:46:13,573 --> 01:46:17,453 Speaker 2: later at NEWSTALKSIB dot co dot nz or Carolyn at 1565 01:46:17,493 --> 01:46:20,693 Speaker 2: news Talks AB dot co dot nz. We we love 1566 01:46:20,733 --> 01:46:23,053 Speaker 2: hearing from you, as you know, and we've been getting 1567 01:46:23,093 --> 01:46:25,133 Speaker 2: some very good mail. Keep it up for these guys. 1568 01:46:25,853 --> 01:46:30,133 Speaker 2: So only thing left to say is, as always, thank 1569 01:46:30,173 --> 01:46:31,893 Speaker 2: you for listening and we'll talk soon. 1570 01:46:39,693 --> 01:46:43,653 Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks B Listen live 1571 01:46:43,853 --> 01:46:46,573 Speaker 1: on air or online, and keep our shows with you 1572 01:46:46,613 --> 01:46:49,573 Speaker 1: wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio