WEBVTT - Reissue: ‘It won’t happen in my lifetime’: Shane Jones on renewable energy goal 0:00:19.059 --> 0:00:22.139 Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 0:00:22.379 --> 0:00:25.299 We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 0:00:25.579 --> 0:00:28.699 we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 0:00:28.739 --> 0:00:31.979 twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 0:00:32.138 --> 0:00:34.619 Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 0:00:34.659 --> 0:00:37.539 with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. 0:00:43.379 --> 0:00:43.819 Kyota. 0:00:43.859 --> 0:00:47.019 I'm Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:47.099 --> 0:00:54.419 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A self 0:00:54.459 --> 0:00:58.779 described prince of the Provinces, there are a few politicians 0:00:58.939 --> 0:01:03.059 like Shane Jones. He's the Minister of Oceans and Fisheries, 0:01:03.179 --> 0:01:07.139 Regional Development and Resources and has been in the spotlight 0:01:07.259 --> 0:01:12.339 recently for spearheading a restart and expansion of oil and 0:01:12.419 --> 0:01:15.539 gas in New Zealand. Over the years, he has faced 0:01:15.579 --> 0:01:20.819 criticism for his close relationships with industry leaders over the environment, 0:01:21.219 --> 0:01:25.538 comments like Goodbye Freddy when talking about if an endangered 0:01:25.579 --> 0:01:29.059 frog stood in the way of mining construction probably doesn't help. 0:01:29.658 --> 0:01:32.539 Today on the Front Page, Shane Jones is with us 0:01:32.579 --> 0:01:35.299 to take us through his latest push for oil and 0:01:35.339 --> 0:01:38.779 gas changes to oceans and fisheries and whether the New 0:01:38.859 --> 0:01:48.899 Zealand's power crisis is fixable. First off, when it comes 0:01:48.939 --> 0:01:53.338 to oil and gas, remind me why we're repealing the 0:01:53.459 --> 0:01:54.779 ban in the first place. 0:01:55.499 --> 0:01:59.579 So the oil and gas industry as a contributor to 0:01:59.659 --> 0:02:03.219 the energy mix of New Zealand. In the absence of 0:02:03.379 --> 0:02:08.059 gas or coal, our electricity system doesn't work. We have 0:02:08.179 --> 0:02:12.659 the option of importing gas, but then that worsens our vulnerability, 0:02:13.538 --> 0:02:17.219 although we may be forced to do it. Everyone wants 0:02:17.299 --> 0:02:22.899 to race to achieve renewable one hundred percent electricity, but 0:02:23.019 --> 0:02:27.618 in the transitional period we need fossil fuels and I'm 0:02:27.619 --> 0:02:30.819 a politician who believes we should use our own resources 0:02:30.939 --> 0:02:36.779 before we import other people's resources. The two hundred million 0:02:36.819 --> 0:02:40.139 dollars set aside as a part of the package beyond 0:02:40.138 --> 0:02:44.578 the oil and gas ban is to both accelerate what 0:02:44.619 --> 0:02:48.018 we know is already here and hopefully to durisk in 0:02:48.099 --> 0:02:52.178 the future in the event that foreign firms or domestic 0:02:52.258 --> 0:02:55.379 investors want to have another go and open up new 0:02:55.459 --> 0:03:00.139 gas fields. So it's really an attempt on my part, 0:03:00.299 --> 0:03:04.379 on behalf of the government to buttress our security. 0:03:04.939 --> 0:03:07.659 Will there ever be a day give it? You know? 0:03:07.819 --> 0:03:11.099 So five ten, twenty years time, when we will be 0:03:11.258 --> 0:03:13.538 one hundred percent renewable. 0:03:13.578 --> 0:03:17.499 Do you think the challenge is that the best renewable 0:03:17.538 --> 0:03:22.899 option for US is more hydro or more geothermal. The 0:03:22.978 --> 0:03:27.339 difficulty with solar and wind, which people are investing in, 0:03:28.179 --> 0:03:32.898 is that you have to overinvest because of the unreliable 0:03:32.978 --> 0:03:35.539 nature of the weather. So let's say you build a 0:03:35.579 --> 0:03:40.219 solar farm for one hundred megawatts. Figuratively speaking, you can 0:03:40.259 --> 0:03:42.859 really only rely on it to give you forty or 0:03:42.899 --> 0:03:46.659 fifty percent of that hundred megawatts. So then you have 0:03:46.739 --> 0:03:50.458 to build two hundred megawatts so that over the lifetime 0:03:51.379 --> 0:03:55.099 and the cycle of the weather, you can get up 0:03:55.139 --> 0:03:57.699 to one hundred percent, and just no one is ever 0:03:57.779 --> 0:04:02.539 going to put in that additional investment. So us Kiwi's 0:04:02.819 --> 0:04:06.419 historically what we've done when it hasn't rained, we've drawn 0:04:06.459 --> 0:04:09.099 on the natural gas, which has declined. I think it's 0:04:09.139 --> 0:04:14.179 fair to say that the decrease is both a matter 0:04:14.259 --> 0:04:19.339 of politics as well as mother nature. Look an art 0:04:19.419 --> 0:04:22.259 form about blaming Jacinda, but a lot of that is 0:04:22.379 --> 0:04:25.579 just because I'm a politician. But the real danger of 0:04:25.659 --> 0:04:29.579 Jasinda's oil and gas band decision was a chilled investment. 0:04:29.739 --> 0:04:33.579 It pretty much sent a signal to New Zealand businesses 0:04:33.619 --> 0:04:36.739 and overseas investors. There's no future in New Zealand for 0:04:36.859 --> 0:04:40.539 this type of fuel to power the economy because the 0:04:40.619 --> 0:04:44.219 government wants to ban it and there are so many 0:04:44.219 --> 0:04:47.139 other places overseas for foreigners to put the capital in 0:04:47.819 --> 0:04:50.699 and use gas, and that's what they did. 0:04:51.299 --> 0:04:54.459 So you don't think that we'll ever move one hundred 0:04:54.499 --> 0:04:56.299 percent away from oil and gas. 0:04:56.499 --> 0:04:59.099 I love sixty five. It won't happen in my lifetime. 0:04:59.499 --> 0:05:04.179 In terms of geothermal energy, though, you've promised that will 0:05:04.339 --> 0:05:08.259 double production by twenty forty at the same time as 0:05:08.379 --> 0:05:11.979 promising to restart the oil and gas industry. Is it 0:05:12.019 --> 0:05:14.099 a bit of a contradiction there? Are you just making 0:05:14.139 --> 0:05:16.139 sure that we've got fingers in all of the pots. 0:05:16.459 --> 0:05:22.379 My mission is to create the most competitive priced energy 0:05:23.299 --> 0:05:26.739 in the OECD. I want New Zealand to have the 0:05:26.779 --> 0:05:34.139 most affordable energy in our comparable trading partner jurisdictions. So 0:05:34.179 --> 0:05:37.779 that's what I'm not known about. And for that to happen, 0:05:38.099 --> 0:05:43.579 we need to boost and shoot every arrow in the quiver. Now, 0:05:44.059 --> 0:05:48.699 gfthermal may prove to be a game changer in a 0:05:48.739 --> 0:05:54.259 fundamental way. If we can commercialize what's called deep seated 0:05:54.339 --> 0:05:58.219 supercritical energy, which has down at about five kilometers in 0:05:58.259 --> 0:06:02.979 the Earth, and the international experts have advised me, along 0:06:02.979 --> 0:06:04.819 with our own officials, if anyone can do it, the 0:06:04.859 --> 0:06:06.339 Keywis can do it. It is a bit of a 0:06:06.379 --> 0:06:11.379 moonbeam shot. However, such as the critical importance of energy, 0:06:12.499 --> 0:06:15.099 I think that the community should expect the government is 0:06:15.139 --> 0:06:18.179 willing to put capital at a risk and take on 0:06:18.259 --> 0:06:22.379 some of the long term punts, and without a doubt, 0:06:22.379 --> 0:06:25.379 to your thermal supercritical energy is one of them. 0:06:26.699 --> 0:06:29.859 Garcity is rewarded in terms of high prices instead of 0:06:29.899 --> 0:06:33.099 high profits or gent tailors. And one of the things 0:06:33.299 --> 0:06:35.659 we've observed in the market is that the price of 0:06:35.699 --> 0:06:38.539 electricity has been decoupled from the cost of actually producing it, 0:06:39.019 --> 0:06:41.899 So the cost of ectricity, the fourth prices of electricity 0:06:42.139 --> 0:06:45.259 are currently well above the long run cost of building 0:06:45.299 --> 0:06:48.819 new power stations and happened since twenty nineteen. And that's 0:06:48.859 --> 0:06:51.059 a good sign that the market isn't delivering those sort 0:06:51.099 --> 0:06:54.499 of outcomes that you'd expect from a competitive. 0:06:53.979 --> 0:07:00.019 Market in terms of gen Taylor's in this country. You 0:07:00.139 --> 0:07:03.899 mentioned power prices for KIWIS. Does there need to be 0:07:03.979 --> 0:07:06.618 a reform into how gen Taylors work. 0:07:07.939 --> 0:07:11.019 Yeah, well, gent Taylor's exist for net profit after tax. 0:07:12.459 --> 0:07:17.459 They're commercial profit seeking entities. They don't believe it's their 0:07:17.539 --> 0:07:23.059 role to deliver either affordable energy or energy security. And 0:07:23.139 --> 0:07:25.459 that's the trade off that we all entered into once 0:07:25.539 --> 0:07:28.179 John Key sold them to the share market. The position 0:07:28.259 --> 0:07:32.219 that I've always advocated is there needs to be more 0:07:32.299 --> 0:07:36.779 transparency in separation within the gent tailors. Their level of 0:07:36.859 --> 0:07:41.459 power rivals the Australian owned banks and look quite a 0:07:41.459 --> 0:07:44.139 professional relationship with them. They know, if I ever have 0:07:44.299 --> 0:07:47.179 my chance, I'm going to visit UTU on them on 0:07:47.259 --> 0:07:50.299 behalf of New Zealanders who are experiencing energy hardship and 0:07:50.419 --> 0:07:53.259 energy poverty. But at the moment I don't have enough 0:07:53.339 --> 0:07:55.739 votes and I don't have the authority to do that. 0:07:55.739 --> 0:07:58.939 It's the devistly complex area, this electricity area. We have 0:07:58.979 --> 0:08:02.779 an organization called the Electricity Authority. I dismissed them as 0:08:02.899 --> 0:08:06.659 chocolate teapots, although I've started to moderate my views and 0:08:06.819 --> 0:08:11.019 they are looking at different options as to what might 0:08:11.059 --> 0:08:16.779 be some smarter ways to regulate the energy sector and 0:08:16.899 --> 0:08:20.259 the gent tailors to improve petition. So we have more 0:08:20.299 --> 0:08:24.459 private sector investors. We have a diverse range of people 0:08:24.539 --> 0:08:28.099 creating energy, maybe closer to where the energy is actually consumed. 0:08:28.339 --> 0:08:31.019 And one thing that I'm looking at is the allocation 0:08:31.139 --> 0:08:33.819 of over one hundred million dollars into some of the 0:08:33.939 --> 0:08:38.499 lines companies in Northland, where we've got arguably the best 0:08:39.139 --> 0:08:42.619 solar and some of the best wind generating capacity. But 0:08:43.299 --> 0:08:47.099 the transmission pipe, the garden hose going to Auckland is 0:08:47.739 --> 0:08:52.059 literally a garden hose. It's not capable of transporting new 0:08:52.179 --> 0:08:53.779 sources of energy at volume. 0:08:54.458 --> 0:08:55.139 If we move on. 0:08:55.498 --> 0:08:59.139 You're also Oceans and Fisheries Minister, of course, so you 0:08:59.179 --> 0:09:03.658 need to be protecting the oceans but also advocating for fisheries. 0:09:03.858 --> 0:09:05.979 But that must be quite difficult, hey, because if you 0:09:06.019 --> 0:09:09.498 do something that benefits the oceans, the fisheries would presumably 0:09:09.539 --> 0:09:12.338 get pissed off, and then obviously vice versa. As we've seen, 0:09:13.858 --> 0:09:17.179 how does that all work? Should they be separated those portfolios? 0:09:17.179 --> 0:09:17.739 Do you think? 0:09:17.978 --> 0:09:21.378 Well, I don't remember there being an ocean's portfolio. I 0:09:21.458 --> 0:09:25.699 think it was an innovation that came in with labor. 0:09:27.019 --> 0:09:31.859 But I'm guided by what we campaigned on. I'm guided 0:09:31.939 --> 0:09:35.899 by our manifesto and we said that we were going 0:09:35.978 --> 0:09:43.218 to generate more jobs, more investment and revenue from a 0:09:43.338 --> 0:09:47.378 legacy industry called the commercial sea fishing industry. It's quite 0:09:47.419 --> 0:09:51.339 a complex area, as you rightly point out, because lots 0:09:51.338 --> 0:09:55.699 of litigation takes place. I mean, the litigiousness in the 0:09:55.858 --> 0:10:00.499 sector is akin to someone with a very drunken habit. 0:10:01.218 --> 0:10:03.059 It just seems to roll on and on, which is 0:10:03.059 --> 0:10:06.899 why I only want to see in the future responsible litigation, 0:10:07.618 --> 0:10:12.179 not vexatious, frivolous or reckless litigation. And that's why we're 0:10:12.259 --> 0:10:16.539 changing the law to restrict the ability of people to 0:10:16.618 --> 0:10:20.979 litigate against the fisheries decisions less it's tightly defined and 0:10:21.139 --> 0:10:26.259 relevant to a fisheries decision. Not saving every ecosystem, not 0:10:26.419 --> 0:10:30.019 saving the braughts, or trying to pile onto fisheries the 0:10:30.059 --> 0:10:34.979 responsibility for the broad health of the ocean around New Zealand. 0:10:35.299 --> 0:10:38.419 I mean, they're the ones out there though, right well. 0:10:38.139 --> 0:10:41.379 The men and women who eke out in existence, often 0:10:41.419 --> 0:10:43.659 in the big vessels, going away for six weeks at 0:10:43.659 --> 0:10:46.939 a time. They literally are taking their lives into the 0:10:46.978 --> 0:10:48.819 cup of their hand. All you need to do is 0:10:48.858 --> 0:10:53.098 watch those images of men and women going over the 0:10:53.139 --> 0:10:56.539 Graymouth Bar and off the west coast of the South 0:10:56.578 --> 0:10:59.939 Island to Taypotini. There is a very lucrative fishery. It's 0:10:59.978 --> 0:11:03.459 a dangerous wildlife industry. I had some experience in the 0:11:03.498 --> 0:11:08.339 fishing sector when I was a younger man, advocating for it. 0:11:08.419 --> 0:11:11.299 In some respects. The lessons I learned in the fishing 0:11:11.299 --> 0:11:19.098 industry have made me the politician who I am today. 0:11:20.819 --> 0:11:24.059 So you've announced reforms, obviously to the Fisheries Act. You 0:11:24.139 --> 0:11:27.538 mentioned it's the most significant for decades. 0:11:28.299 --> 0:11:30.819 What else have you done to support fisheries lately. 0:11:31.218 --> 0:11:36.939 Well, I've broadened my attention to both seafood farming and fisheries. 0:11:37.179 --> 0:11:41.899 Most of the seafood protein comes from fisheries and related 0:11:42.379 --> 0:11:47.939 resources that are farmed. It's a relatively small percentage that 0:11:48.059 --> 0:11:52.259 comes from wild caught fishery. But New Zealand has one 0:11:52.299 --> 0:11:55.098 of the most enviable fisheries systems in the world. There 0:11:55.098 --> 0:11:58.699 are quote a management system. So look, what I've sought 0:11:58.738 --> 0:12:01.699 to do since I've been the minister is bring some 0:12:01.819 --> 0:12:06.219 overdue change, the largest changes since nineteen eighty six. On 0:12:06.419 --> 0:12:11.258 the question of muscle farming and oyster farming. I extended 0:12:11.299 --> 0:12:14.578 all the permits by in large to twenty fifty, so 0:12:14.659 --> 0:12:16.578 people don't need to go and get any more permits. 0:12:16.578 --> 0:12:18.379 They can just put the money into the business and 0:12:18.419 --> 0:12:22.338 get on with running their business. I've initiated a body 0:12:22.338 --> 0:12:25.779 of work with mister David Seymour, my senior colleague. He's 0:12:25.819 --> 0:12:29.898 the deregulatory Minister, and we want to identify what rules 0:12:29.899 --> 0:12:33.739 and regulations need to change so we can farm trout 0:12:34.379 --> 0:12:37.498 and other freshwater species because we need to create new industries, 0:12:37.578 --> 0:12:39.978 we need to create new jobs, we need to build 0:12:40.059 --> 0:12:42.979 new exports and that's not going to happen unless we 0:12:43.019 --> 0:12:47.099 take risks. So it's quite a busy dance card. I'm 0:12:47.098 --> 0:12:50.258 on the downside. I need to be very careful that 0:12:50.819 --> 0:12:53.419 I explained to the New Zealand public, in particular the 0:12:53.419 --> 0:12:57.259 recreational fisheries sector, that these changes are not going to 0:12:58.338 --> 0:13:02.018 hobble their rights or their privileges. 0:13:02.218 --> 0:13:04.618 And in terms of this portfolio, Shane, what have you 0:13:04.738 --> 0:13:08.258 done to protect our oceans while you've been in charge. 0:13:08.458 --> 0:13:12.618 Well, that's been addressed mostly by the Foreign Affairs and 0:13:12.699 --> 0:13:18.019 Winston Peters he attended the Ocean's Conference. I mean, obviously 0:13:18.738 --> 0:13:23.219 New Zealand First has supported Honorable Tummer Portucker with his 0:13:23.338 --> 0:13:29.259 introduction of some reserves around the Hodaki Golf. I've closed 0:13:29.259 --> 0:13:33.898 down some fisheries whilst I've been the Minister, such as crayfish. 0:13:34.179 --> 0:13:37.539 I'm about to go out and consult and closing down 0:13:38.218 --> 0:13:42.378 the harvesting of crayfish off the entirety of the coast 0:13:42.419 --> 0:13:45.459 of Northland. Given that I come from Northland and I 0:13:45.498 --> 0:13:47.858 was born and bred on Kaianwana, you might imagine it's 0:13:47.899 --> 0:13:50.939 going to be quite a stiff experience. But that's a 0:13:50.978 --> 0:13:56.459 small example which shows that I don't shy away from 0:13:56.458 --> 0:13:58.899 making some of these decisions which will be to the 0:13:58.899 --> 0:14:03.779 benefit of our fishery resource and the community over the 0:14:03.779 --> 0:14:04.659 long term. 0:14:04.819 --> 0:14:08.179 What about bottom trolling? Why can't we just say no 0:14:08.338 --> 0:14:08.659 to that? 0:14:09.139 --> 0:14:14.459 Oh, well, that's because David Attenborough's documentary was a gross 0:14:14.498 --> 0:14:18.739 misrepresentation of what happens in New Zealand, and then all 0:14:18.819 --> 0:14:25.019 these sort of kind of social media critics and warriors 0:14:25.179 --> 0:14:30.899 mistakenly thought that our fishing industry is ruining our ecosystems 0:14:30.939 --> 0:14:34.659 by bottom trawling. The images on that documentary are not 0:14:34.739 --> 0:14:39.619 from New Zealand, and bottom trawling is a very skillful 0:14:39.899 --> 0:14:44.059 set of operations and it's easily catastrophized. But New Zealand 0:14:44.139 --> 0:14:49.699 doesn't actually apply bottom trawling to much of our economic zone. 0:14:49.739 --> 0:14:51.979 It's just some targeted areas, and a lot of the 0:14:52.579 --> 0:14:58.059 seamounts deeply located in the ocean, they're already protected. It 0:14:58.099 --> 0:15:01.018 is a key feature of how the industry operates at 0:15:01.059 --> 0:15:04.739 the moment, and with the advent and the expansion of cameras, 0:15:05.499 --> 0:15:09.379 I'm sure over time people's fears will be allayed. But 0:15:09.499 --> 0:15:13.499 it is an area you're right that is easily weaponized 0:15:13.539 --> 0:15:18.699 and exaggerated. But then I often find that the green 0:15:18.739 --> 0:15:23.459 main na drives people to catastrophize the one or three 0:15:23.459 --> 0:15:26.459 events that happen in the fishing industry which may be egregious, 0:15:26.499 --> 0:15:30.979 but they're not reflective of the behavior or the experience 0:15:31.219 --> 0:15:32.459 of the entire sector. 0:15:32.899 --> 0:15:36.299 Is I mean, if it is done so little though, 0:15:36.939 --> 0:15:40.179 there does the benefit of just saying yes, we're going 0:15:40.259 --> 0:15:44.459 to ban it outweigh the economic benefit of bottom trawling. 0:15:44.579 --> 0:15:48.859 Say yeah, well, I know that there is an agenda 0:15:48.899 --> 0:15:51.219 to ban it in New Zealand. I know that a 0:15:51.299 --> 0:15:54.419 number of people have been agitating to bann it in 0:15:54.459 --> 0:15:57.979 the Hodarky Golf that will not be happening for as 0:15:58.019 --> 0:16:01.059 long as I'm the Fisheries minister, why not once you 0:16:01.219 --> 0:16:04.979 bann one part of an activity in a certain area 0:16:05.019 --> 0:16:07.859 of the coastline, the fishing activity just moves to another 0:16:07.939 --> 0:16:13.699 area and the bottom trawling references which is not exclusively 0:16:14.219 --> 0:16:16.819 but it pertains to the Orange Ruffi fishery. And obviously 0:16:16.899 --> 0:16:19.779 the Orange Ruffi fishery has been very low in the 0:16:19.819 --> 0:16:23.659 past and quote dropped off substantially in order for it 0:16:23.699 --> 0:16:26.459 to recover. That's how the system works, and we're going 0:16:26.499 --> 0:16:29.258 to have to look at those options going forward because 0:16:29.259 --> 0:16:32.859 there is an issue obviously where the scientists and the 0:16:32.819 --> 0:16:36.299 officials in the industry are concerned about the state of 0:16:36.779 --> 0:16:39.339 part of the Orange ruffy fishery in the South Island. 0:16:39.739 --> 0:16:41.619 But you can't blame bottom trawling for that. 0:16:44.179 --> 0:16:46.499 Well, we'll have to wait and see when it comes 0:16:46.499 --> 0:16:49.139 to actually the devil being in the details here. But 0:16:49.459 --> 0:16:53.138 the idea of sustainability and Shane Jones is like fossil 0:16:53.139 --> 0:16:57.059 fuels and climate action, the two do not mix. And 0:16:57.139 --> 0:16:59.339 I think New Zealanders need to understand why this has 0:16:59.379 --> 0:17:03.019 been so controversial for so long, because ultimately our fitting 0:17:03.059 --> 0:17:05.899 industry is not run in a sustainable way. And Shane 0:17:05.979 --> 0:17:08.539 Jones wants to take the shackles off and see more 0:17:08.739 --> 0:17:10.379 of our oceans exploit it. 0:17:12.699 --> 0:17:16.979 You've been accused of being out of touch and favoring 0:17:17.179 --> 0:17:21.779 private or corporate interests while downplaying environmental concerns in favor 0:17:21.779 --> 0:17:22.939 of economic development. 0:17:23.939 --> 0:17:25.779 You must get sick of that, Shane. 0:17:26.659 --> 0:17:29.659 Why do you think it's such a bugbear and why 0:17:29.699 --> 0:17:32.059 do you think that you're accused of it so often? 0:17:33.019 --> 0:17:36.699 I just think it's the blood sport of politics. I 0:17:36.739 --> 0:17:39.859 think there's a new generation coming forward who've forgotten that 0:17:39.939 --> 0:17:46.139 milk comes from cows, that fish is a wildlife industry. 0:17:47.179 --> 0:17:50.579 I just accept it for the political mix. It's got 0:17:50.619 --> 0:17:55.699 more ubiquitous with social media. But for every person that's complaining, 0:17:55.859 --> 0:17:59.539 I can tell you there's ten other Kiwis who applaud 0:17:59.579 --> 0:18:03.339 and barracked me for being one of the plain, candid, 0:18:04.899 --> 0:18:07.979 articulate men in politics who says it as it is. 0:18:08.579 --> 0:18:11.619 It's like I said, I know that triggers responses, but 0:18:11.739 --> 0:18:13.859 then that's what politics is about. And I say to 0:18:13.899 --> 0:18:15.819 all my critics, meet me at the ballot box. 0:18:16.259 --> 0:18:18.499 So you're not a puppet for private interests. 0:18:19.179 --> 0:18:23.219 I'm a great supporter and promoter for investment, for jobs 0:18:23.579 --> 0:18:28.259 for economic growth. And I say to the viewers who 0:18:28.299 --> 0:18:32.059 are many and listeners to your program, we are going 0:18:32.099 --> 0:18:37.499 through some severe economic challenges. We have to become familiar 0:18:37.819 --> 0:18:42.499 and comfortable with making trade offs. And because our society 0:18:42.539 --> 0:18:46.739 has become so metropolitanized, far too many of my critics 0:18:46.739 --> 0:18:54.299 have forgotten that the wildlife industries, the farming industry, the 0:18:54.339 --> 0:18:58.659 growing industry, they represent the bulk of our export earnings. 0:18:59.139 --> 0:19:03.138 And New Zealand will never be self sufficient unless it 0:19:03.299 --> 0:19:08.579 can use its natural resources boost its income internationally. Because, 0:19:09.219 --> 0:19:12.979 to the best of my ability of sought to convince 0:19:13.939 --> 0:19:16.339 my critics living in Auckland, you don't grow rich by 0:19:16.339 --> 0:19:17.539 doing each other's laundry. 0:19:19.019 --> 0:19:19.219 Shame. 0:19:19.339 --> 0:19:22.819 Lastly, what does the future look like for you? 0:19:22.939 --> 0:19:26.579 Are you already thinking about campaign, you know for election 0:19:26.699 --> 0:19:27.659 twenty twenty six? 0:19:28.859 --> 0:19:30.899 Is now all go? Or do you get to wait 0:19:30.899 --> 0:19:32.179 a few months till next year? 0:19:33.659 --> 0:19:39.379 Well, obviously I've got my constitutional responsibilities as a cabinet minister, 0:19:40.219 --> 0:19:42.659 and most of those decisions, not all, are made under 0:19:42.699 --> 0:19:46.179 the law, so I can be held legally accountable for 0:19:46.219 --> 0:19:49.819 a number of my fisheries decisions and expansion of mining. 0:19:50.459 --> 0:19:54.779 As you know, New Zealand is now regarded as a 0:19:54.819 --> 0:20:00.739 consequence of the Fraser Institute analysis of mining destinations, New 0:20:00.859 --> 0:20:04.419 Zealand has gone from last to number fifteen in the 0:20:04.419 --> 0:20:10.499 whole world in terms of a desirable investment destination for mining. 0:20:11.219 --> 0:20:13.099 But that's what I was asked to do by the 0:20:13.099 --> 0:20:15.219 Prime Minister. That's what I was asked to do by 0:20:15.339 --> 0:20:19.579 our government. And I'm going to continue to expand footprint 0:20:20.539 --> 0:20:27.419 of jobs investment. I've got no time for that duo 0:20:27.979 --> 0:20:30.739 perched two hundred and fifty meters up in the sky 0:20:31.419 --> 0:20:34.019 on top of a coal mine down in the West Coast. 0:20:34.939 --> 0:20:37.619 I think that their beliefs have turned into a statement 0:20:37.699 --> 0:20:41.699 of personal arrogance and conceit, and now they're endangering all 0:20:41.739 --> 0:20:44.939 those jobs and that coal mine, and I just think 0:20:45.019 --> 0:20:50.379 that it's reckless and it's as indefensible that their personal 0:20:51.339 --> 0:20:56.619 luxury beliefs are now regarded as of such importance that 0:20:56.859 --> 0:20:59.659 it would wipe out hundreds of jobs on the West Coast. 0:20:59.979 --> 0:21:01.819 You can see where they're coming from, though. I mean, 0:21:02.099 --> 0:21:05.019 when we do talk about oil and gas and coal burning, etc. 0:21:05.379 --> 0:21:08.059 Then you've got a planet that's heating, You've got kids 0:21:08.099 --> 0:21:10.539 worried about their future due to climate change. 0:21:10.539 --> 0:21:16.979 We're getting bigger, scarier storms. We have a tsunami warning 0:21:17.019 --> 0:21:21.219 the other week. I mean, we do understand people's concerns 0:21:21.899 --> 0:21:24.899 when we talk about oil and gas and everything. 0:21:24.979 --> 0:21:26.898 I mean, do you think that there's a toss up 0:21:26.939 --> 0:21:30.859 to be had between saying, look, we need this in 0:21:30.939 --> 0:21:32.779 order to have energy and be able to turn the 0:21:32.859 --> 0:21:36.379 lights on in the future. But here we do concede 0:21:36.459 --> 0:21:38.819 and say, look, we are looking at other options. 0:21:39.299 --> 0:21:42.898 I think often I get a bad rap. I'm the 0:21:42.899 --> 0:21:47.579 politician that's spent over two hundred million dollars dedicated to 0:21:47.739 --> 0:21:52.539 protecting our stock banks, to stop rivers from flooding, and 0:21:52.619 --> 0:21:55.379 I've been told by various regional councils if that money 0:21:55.419 --> 0:21:58.979 hadn't been allocated and spent my my good self areas 0:21:58.979 --> 0:22:02.299 such a Taradale would have been wiped out. I'm the 0:22:02.339 --> 0:22:06.779 guy at a time of fiscal hardship dedicated sixty odd 0:22:06.819 --> 0:22:10.539 million dollars to exploring for supercritical energy and if we 0:22:10.579 --> 0:22:14.539 can pull it off, it'll completely invert the price equation 0:22:14.699 --> 0:22:19.419 of New Zealand's energy. Also the guy funding the moment 0:22:19.539 --> 0:22:23.898 small communities from Stuart Island, Chatham Islands, the East Cape, 0:22:24.099 --> 0:22:30.099 Northland Community Renewable energy projects, but it's easier to focus 0:22:30.939 --> 0:22:35.859 on Shane Jones as someone who backs fossil fuels that's 0:22:35.899 --> 0:22:39.859 going to fry the planet. And look, you can't fight 0:22:39.979 --> 0:22:44.859 that level of emotional virtue signaling with facts, and that's 0:22:44.859 --> 0:22:48.219 what brings me out with my own brand of hyperbleon rhetoric. 0:22:48.859 --> 0:22:51.139 And all those bloodites that met their match and much 0:22:51.139 --> 0:22:51.899 to a Shane. 0:22:52.339 --> 0:22:54.539 Thanks for joining us, Shane, thanks. 0:22:54.379 --> 0:22:55.939 For having me. Bye. 0:22:58.459 --> 0:23:01.658 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:23:01.659 --> 0:23:05.739 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:23:05.859 --> 0:23:09.659 at enzidherld dot co dot MZD. The Front Page is 0:23:09.739 --> 0:23:13.499 produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also 0:23:13.699 --> 0:23:18.139 our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page 0:23:18.139 --> 0:23:21.859 on Iheartrate or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 0:23:21.899 --> 0:23:25.219 in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.