1 00:00:19,059 --> 00:00:22,139 Speaker 1: Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 2 00:00:22,379 --> 00:00:25,299 Speaker 1: We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 3 00:00:25,579 --> 00:00:28,699 Speaker 1: we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 4 00:00:28,739 --> 00:00:31,979 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 5 00:00:32,138 --> 00:00:34,619 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 6 00:00:34,659 --> 00:00:37,539 Speaker 1: with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. 7 00:00:43,379 --> 00:00:43,819 Speaker 2: Kyota. 8 00:00:43,859 --> 00:00:47,019 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a 9 00:00:47,099 --> 00:00:54,419 Speaker 1: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A self 10 00:00:54,459 --> 00:00:58,779 Speaker 1: described prince of the Provinces, there are a few politicians 11 00:00:58,939 --> 00:01:03,059 Speaker 1: like Shane Jones. He's the Minister of Oceans and Fisheries, 12 00:01:03,179 --> 00:01:07,139 Speaker 1: Regional Development and Resources and has been in the spotlight 13 00:01:07,259 --> 00:01:12,339 Speaker 1: recently for spearheading a restart and expansion of oil and 14 00:01:12,419 --> 00:01:15,539 Speaker 1: gas in New Zealand. Over the years, he has faced 15 00:01:15,579 --> 00:01:20,819 Speaker 1: criticism for his close relationships with industry leaders over the environment, 16 00:01:21,219 --> 00:01:25,538 Speaker 1: comments like Goodbye Freddy when talking about if an endangered 17 00:01:25,579 --> 00:01:29,059 Speaker 1: frog stood in the way of mining construction probably doesn't help. 18 00:01:29,658 --> 00:01:32,539 Speaker 1: Today on the Front Page, Shane Jones is with us 19 00:01:32,579 --> 00:01:35,299 Speaker 1: to take us through his latest push for oil and 20 00:01:35,339 --> 00:01:38,779 Speaker 1: gas changes to oceans and fisheries and whether the New 21 00:01:38,859 --> 00:01:48,899 Speaker 1: Zealand's power crisis is fixable. First off, when it comes 22 00:01:48,939 --> 00:01:53,338 Speaker 1: to oil and gas, remind me why we're repealing the 23 00:01:53,459 --> 00:01:54,779 Speaker 1: ban in the first place. 24 00:01:55,499 --> 00:01:59,579 Speaker 3: So the oil and gas industry as a contributor to 25 00:01:59,659 --> 00:02:03,219 Speaker 3: the energy mix of New Zealand. In the absence of 26 00:02:03,379 --> 00:02:08,059 Speaker 3: gas or coal, our electricity system doesn't work. We have 27 00:02:08,179 --> 00:02:12,659 Speaker 3: the option of importing gas, but then that worsens our vulnerability, 28 00:02:13,538 --> 00:02:17,219 Speaker 3: although we may be forced to do it. Everyone wants 29 00:02:17,299 --> 00:02:22,899 Speaker 3: to race to achieve renewable one hundred percent electricity, but 30 00:02:23,019 --> 00:02:27,618 Speaker 3: in the transitional period we need fossil fuels and I'm 31 00:02:27,619 --> 00:02:30,819 Speaker 3: a politician who believes we should use our own resources 32 00:02:30,939 --> 00:02:36,779 Speaker 3: before we import other people's resources. The two hundred million 33 00:02:36,819 --> 00:02:40,139 Speaker 3: dollars set aside as a part of the package beyond 34 00:02:40,138 --> 00:02:44,578 Speaker 3: the oil and gas ban is to both accelerate what 35 00:02:44,619 --> 00:02:48,018 Speaker 3: we know is already here and hopefully to durisk in 36 00:02:48,099 --> 00:02:52,178 Speaker 3: the future in the event that foreign firms or domestic 37 00:02:52,258 --> 00:02:55,379 Speaker 3: investors want to have another go and open up new 38 00:02:55,459 --> 00:03:00,139 Speaker 3: gas fields. So it's really an attempt on my part, 39 00:03:00,299 --> 00:03:04,379 Speaker 3: on behalf of the government to buttress our security. 40 00:03:04,939 --> 00:03:07,659 Speaker 2: Will there ever be a day give it? You know? 41 00:03:07,819 --> 00:03:11,099 Speaker 1: So five ten, twenty years time, when we will be 42 00:03:11,258 --> 00:03:13,538 Speaker 1: one hundred percent renewable. 43 00:03:13,578 --> 00:03:17,499 Speaker 3: Do you think the challenge is that the best renewable 44 00:03:17,538 --> 00:03:22,899 Speaker 3: option for US is more hydro or more geothermal. The 45 00:03:22,978 --> 00:03:27,339 Speaker 3: difficulty with solar and wind, which people are investing in, 46 00:03:28,179 --> 00:03:32,898 Speaker 3: is that you have to overinvest because of the unreliable 47 00:03:32,978 --> 00:03:35,539 Speaker 3: nature of the weather. So let's say you build a 48 00:03:35,579 --> 00:03:40,219 Speaker 3: solar farm for one hundred megawatts. Figuratively speaking, you can 49 00:03:40,259 --> 00:03:42,859 Speaker 3: really only rely on it to give you forty or 50 00:03:42,899 --> 00:03:46,659 Speaker 3: fifty percent of that hundred megawatts. So then you have 51 00:03:46,739 --> 00:03:50,458 Speaker 3: to build two hundred megawatts so that over the lifetime 52 00:03:51,379 --> 00:03:55,099 Speaker 3: and the cycle of the weather, you can get up 53 00:03:55,139 --> 00:03:57,699 Speaker 3: to one hundred percent, and just no one is ever 54 00:03:57,779 --> 00:04:02,539 Speaker 3: going to put in that additional investment. So us Kiwi's 55 00:04:02,819 --> 00:04:06,419 Speaker 3: historically what we've done when it hasn't rained, we've drawn 56 00:04:06,459 --> 00:04:09,099 Speaker 3: on the natural gas, which has declined. I think it's 57 00:04:09,139 --> 00:04:14,179 Speaker 3: fair to say that the decrease is both a matter 58 00:04:14,259 --> 00:04:19,339 Speaker 3: of politics as well as mother nature. Look an art 59 00:04:19,419 --> 00:04:22,259 Speaker 3: form about blaming Jacinda, but a lot of that is 60 00:04:22,379 --> 00:04:25,579 Speaker 3: just because I'm a politician. But the real danger of 61 00:04:25,659 --> 00:04:29,579 Speaker 3: Jasinda's oil and gas band decision was a chilled investment. 62 00:04:29,739 --> 00:04:33,579 Speaker 3: It pretty much sent a signal to New Zealand businesses 63 00:04:33,619 --> 00:04:36,739 Speaker 3: and overseas investors. There's no future in New Zealand for 64 00:04:36,859 --> 00:04:40,539 Speaker 3: this type of fuel to power the economy because the 65 00:04:40,619 --> 00:04:44,219 Speaker 3: government wants to ban it and there are so many 66 00:04:44,219 --> 00:04:47,139 Speaker 3: other places overseas for foreigners to put the capital in 67 00:04:47,819 --> 00:04:50,699 Speaker 3: and use gas, and that's what they did. 68 00:04:51,299 --> 00:04:54,459 Speaker 1: So you don't think that we'll ever move one hundred 69 00:04:54,499 --> 00:04:56,299 Speaker 1: percent away from oil and gas. 70 00:04:56,499 --> 00:04:59,099 Speaker 3: I love sixty five. It won't happen in my lifetime. 71 00:04:59,499 --> 00:05:04,179 Speaker 1: In terms of geothermal energy, though, you've promised that will 72 00:05:04,339 --> 00:05:08,259 Speaker 1: double production by twenty forty at the same time as 73 00:05:08,379 --> 00:05:11,979 Speaker 1: promising to restart the oil and gas industry. Is it 74 00:05:12,019 --> 00:05:14,099 Speaker 1: a bit of a contradiction there? Are you just making 75 00:05:14,139 --> 00:05:16,139 Speaker 1: sure that we've got fingers in all of the pots. 76 00:05:16,459 --> 00:05:22,379 Speaker 3: My mission is to create the most competitive priced energy 77 00:05:23,299 --> 00:05:26,739 Speaker 3: in the OECD. I want New Zealand to have the 78 00:05:26,779 --> 00:05:34,139 Speaker 3: most affordable energy in our comparable trading partner jurisdictions. So 79 00:05:34,179 --> 00:05:37,779 Speaker 3: that's what I'm not known about. And for that to happen, 80 00:05:38,099 --> 00:05:43,579 Speaker 3: we need to boost and shoot every arrow in the quiver. Now, 81 00:05:44,059 --> 00:05:48,699 Speaker 3: gfthermal may prove to be a game changer in a 82 00:05:48,739 --> 00:05:54,259 Speaker 3: fundamental way. If we can commercialize what's called deep seated 83 00:05:54,339 --> 00:05:58,219 Speaker 3: supercritical energy, which has down at about five kilometers in 84 00:05:58,259 --> 00:06:02,979 Speaker 3: the Earth, and the international experts have advised me, along 85 00:06:02,979 --> 00:06:04,819 Speaker 3: with our own officials, if anyone can do it, the 86 00:06:04,859 --> 00:06:06,339 Speaker 3: Keywis can do it. It is a bit of a 87 00:06:06,379 --> 00:06:11,379 Speaker 3: moonbeam shot. However, such as the critical importance of energy, 88 00:06:12,499 --> 00:06:15,099 Speaker 3: I think that the community should expect the government is 89 00:06:15,139 --> 00:06:18,179 Speaker 3: willing to put capital at a risk and take on 90 00:06:18,259 --> 00:06:22,379 Speaker 3: some of the long term punts, and without a doubt, 91 00:06:22,379 --> 00:06:25,379 Speaker 3: to your thermal supercritical energy is one of them. 92 00:06:26,699 --> 00:06:29,859 Speaker 4: Garcity is rewarded in terms of high prices instead of 93 00:06:29,899 --> 00:06:33,099 Speaker 4: high profits or gent tailors. And one of the things 94 00:06:33,299 --> 00:06:35,659 Speaker 4: we've observed in the market is that the price of 95 00:06:35,699 --> 00:06:38,539 Speaker 4: electricity has been decoupled from the cost of actually producing it, 96 00:06:39,019 --> 00:06:41,899 Speaker 4: So the cost of ectricity, the fourth prices of electricity 97 00:06:42,139 --> 00:06:45,259 Speaker 4: are currently well above the long run cost of building 98 00:06:45,299 --> 00:06:48,819 Speaker 4: new power stations and happened since twenty nineteen. And that's 99 00:06:48,859 --> 00:06:51,059 Speaker 4: a good sign that the market isn't delivering those sort 100 00:06:51,099 --> 00:06:54,499 Speaker 4: of outcomes that you'd expect from a competitive. 101 00:06:53,979 --> 00:07:00,019 Speaker 1: Market in terms of gen Taylor's in this country. You 102 00:07:00,139 --> 00:07:03,899 Speaker 1: mentioned power prices for KIWIS. Does there need to be 103 00:07:03,979 --> 00:07:06,618 Speaker 1: a reform into how gen Taylors work. 104 00:07:07,939 --> 00:07:11,019 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, gent Taylor's exist for net profit after tax. 105 00:07:12,459 --> 00:07:17,459 Speaker 3: They're commercial profit seeking entities. They don't believe it's their 106 00:07:17,539 --> 00:07:23,059 Speaker 3: role to deliver either affordable energy or energy security. And 107 00:07:23,139 --> 00:07:25,459 Speaker 3: that's the trade off that we all entered into once 108 00:07:25,539 --> 00:07:28,179 Speaker 3: John Key sold them to the share market. The position 109 00:07:28,259 --> 00:07:32,219 Speaker 3: that I've always advocated is there needs to be more 110 00:07:32,299 --> 00:07:36,779 Speaker 3: transparency in separation within the gent tailors. Their level of 111 00:07:36,859 --> 00:07:41,459 Speaker 3: power rivals the Australian owned banks and look quite a 112 00:07:41,459 --> 00:07:44,139 Speaker 3: professional relationship with them. They know, if I ever have 113 00:07:44,299 --> 00:07:47,179 Speaker 3: my chance, I'm going to visit UTU on them on 114 00:07:47,259 --> 00:07:50,299 Speaker 3: behalf of New Zealanders who are experiencing energy hardship and 115 00:07:50,419 --> 00:07:53,259 Speaker 3: energy poverty. But at the moment I don't have enough 116 00:07:53,339 --> 00:07:55,739 Speaker 3: votes and I don't have the authority to do that. 117 00:07:55,739 --> 00:07:58,939 Speaker 3: It's the devistly complex area, this electricity area. We have 118 00:07:58,979 --> 00:08:02,779 Speaker 3: an organization called the Electricity Authority. I dismissed them as 119 00:08:02,899 --> 00:08:06,659 Speaker 3: chocolate teapots, although I've started to moderate my views and 120 00:08:06,819 --> 00:08:11,019 Speaker 3: they are looking at different options as to what might 121 00:08:11,059 --> 00:08:16,779 Speaker 3: be some smarter ways to regulate the energy sector and 122 00:08:16,899 --> 00:08:20,259 Speaker 3: the gent tailors to improve petition. So we have more 123 00:08:20,299 --> 00:08:24,459 Speaker 3: private sector investors. We have a diverse range of people 124 00:08:24,539 --> 00:08:28,099 Speaker 3: creating energy, maybe closer to where the energy is actually consumed. 125 00:08:28,339 --> 00:08:31,019 Speaker 3: And one thing that I'm looking at is the allocation 126 00:08:31,139 --> 00:08:33,819 Speaker 3: of over one hundred million dollars into some of the 127 00:08:33,939 --> 00:08:38,499 Speaker 3: lines companies in Northland, where we've got arguably the best 128 00:08:39,139 --> 00:08:42,619 Speaker 3: solar and some of the best wind generating capacity. But 129 00:08:43,299 --> 00:08:47,099 Speaker 3: the transmission pipe, the garden hose going to Auckland is 130 00:08:47,739 --> 00:08:52,059 Speaker 3: literally a garden hose. It's not capable of transporting new 131 00:08:52,179 --> 00:08:53,779 Speaker 3: sources of energy at volume. 132 00:08:54,458 --> 00:08:55,139 Speaker 2: If we move on. 133 00:08:55,498 --> 00:08:59,139 Speaker 1: You're also Oceans and Fisheries Minister, of course, so you 134 00:08:59,179 --> 00:09:03,658 Speaker 1: need to be protecting the oceans but also advocating for fisheries. 135 00:09:03,858 --> 00:09:05,979 Speaker 1: But that must be quite difficult, hey, because if you 136 00:09:06,019 --> 00:09:09,498 Speaker 1: do something that benefits the oceans, the fisheries would presumably 137 00:09:09,539 --> 00:09:12,338 Speaker 1: get pissed off, and then obviously vice versa. As we've seen, 138 00:09:13,858 --> 00:09:17,179 Speaker 1: how does that all work? Should they be separated those portfolios? 139 00:09:17,179 --> 00:09:17,739 Speaker 2: Do you think? 140 00:09:17,978 --> 00:09:21,378 Speaker 3: Well, I don't remember there being an ocean's portfolio. I 141 00:09:21,458 --> 00:09:25,699 Speaker 3: think it was an innovation that came in with labor. 142 00:09:27,019 --> 00:09:31,859 Speaker 3: But I'm guided by what we campaigned on. I'm guided 143 00:09:31,939 --> 00:09:35,899 Speaker 3: by our manifesto and we said that we were going 144 00:09:35,978 --> 00:09:43,218 Speaker 3: to generate more jobs, more investment and revenue from a 145 00:09:43,338 --> 00:09:47,378 Speaker 3: legacy industry called the commercial sea fishing industry. It's quite 146 00:09:47,419 --> 00:09:51,339 Speaker 3: a complex area, as you rightly point out, because lots 147 00:09:51,338 --> 00:09:55,699 Speaker 3: of litigation takes place. I mean, the litigiousness in the 148 00:09:55,858 --> 00:10:00,499 Speaker 3: sector is akin to someone with a very drunken habit. 149 00:10:01,218 --> 00:10:03,059 Speaker 3: It just seems to roll on and on, which is 150 00:10:03,059 --> 00:10:06,899 Speaker 3: why I only want to see in the future responsible litigation, 151 00:10:07,618 --> 00:10:12,179 Speaker 3: not vexatious, frivolous or reckless litigation. And that's why we're 152 00:10:12,259 --> 00:10:16,539 Speaker 3: changing the law to restrict the ability of people to 153 00:10:16,618 --> 00:10:20,979 Speaker 3: litigate against the fisheries decisions less it's tightly defined and 154 00:10:21,139 --> 00:10:26,259 Speaker 3: relevant to a fisheries decision. Not saving every ecosystem, not 155 00:10:26,419 --> 00:10:30,019 Speaker 3: saving the braughts, or trying to pile onto fisheries the 156 00:10:30,059 --> 00:10:34,979 Speaker 3: responsibility for the broad health of the ocean around New Zealand. 157 00:10:35,299 --> 00:10:38,419 Speaker 2: I mean, they're the ones out there though, right well. 158 00:10:38,139 --> 00:10:41,379 Speaker 3: The men and women who eke out in existence, often 159 00:10:41,419 --> 00:10:43,659 Speaker 3: in the big vessels, going away for six weeks at 160 00:10:43,659 --> 00:10:46,939 Speaker 3: a time. They literally are taking their lives into the 161 00:10:46,978 --> 00:10:48,819 Speaker 3: cup of their hand. All you need to do is 162 00:10:48,858 --> 00:10:53,098 Speaker 3: watch those images of men and women going over the 163 00:10:53,139 --> 00:10:56,539 Speaker 3: Graymouth Bar and off the west coast of the South 164 00:10:56,578 --> 00:10:59,939 Speaker 3: Island to Taypotini. There is a very lucrative fishery. It's 165 00:10:59,978 --> 00:11:03,459 Speaker 3: a dangerous wildlife industry. I had some experience in the 166 00:11:03,498 --> 00:11:08,339 Speaker 3: fishing sector when I was a younger man, advocating for it. 167 00:11:08,419 --> 00:11:11,299 Speaker 3: In some respects. The lessons I learned in the fishing 168 00:11:11,299 --> 00:11:19,098 Speaker 3: industry have made me the politician who I am today. 169 00:11:20,819 --> 00:11:24,059 Speaker 1: So you've announced reforms, obviously to the Fisheries Act. You 170 00:11:24,139 --> 00:11:27,538 Speaker 1: mentioned it's the most significant for decades. 171 00:11:28,299 --> 00:11:30,819 Speaker 2: What else have you done to support fisheries lately. 172 00:11:31,218 --> 00:11:36,939 Speaker 3: Well, I've broadened my attention to both seafood farming and fisheries. 173 00:11:37,179 --> 00:11:41,899 Speaker 3: Most of the seafood protein comes from fisheries and related 174 00:11:42,379 --> 00:11:47,939 Speaker 3: resources that are farmed. It's a relatively small percentage that 175 00:11:48,059 --> 00:11:52,259 Speaker 3: comes from wild caught fishery. But New Zealand has one 176 00:11:52,299 --> 00:11:55,098 Speaker 3: of the most enviable fisheries systems in the world. There 177 00:11:55,098 --> 00:11:58,699 Speaker 3: are quote a management system. So look, what I've sought 178 00:11:58,738 --> 00:12:01,699 Speaker 3: to do since I've been the minister is bring some 179 00:12:01,819 --> 00:12:06,219 Speaker 3: overdue change, the largest changes since nineteen eighty six. On 180 00:12:06,419 --> 00:12:11,258 Speaker 3: the question of muscle farming and oyster farming. I extended 181 00:12:11,299 --> 00:12:14,578 Speaker 3: all the permits by in large to twenty fifty, so 182 00:12:14,659 --> 00:12:16,578 Speaker 3: people don't need to go and get any more permits. 183 00:12:16,578 --> 00:12:18,379 Speaker 3: They can just put the money into the business and 184 00:12:18,419 --> 00:12:22,338 Speaker 3: get on with running their business. I've initiated a body 185 00:12:22,338 --> 00:12:25,779 Speaker 3: of work with mister David Seymour, my senior colleague. He's 186 00:12:25,819 --> 00:12:29,898 Speaker 3: the deregulatory Minister, and we want to identify what rules 187 00:12:29,899 --> 00:12:33,739 Speaker 3: and regulations need to change so we can farm trout 188 00:12:34,379 --> 00:12:37,498 Speaker 3: and other freshwater species because we need to create new industries, 189 00:12:37,578 --> 00:12:39,978 Speaker 3: we need to create new jobs, we need to build 190 00:12:40,059 --> 00:12:42,979 Speaker 3: new exports and that's not going to happen unless we 191 00:12:43,019 --> 00:12:47,099 Speaker 3: take risks. So it's quite a busy dance card. I'm 192 00:12:47,098 --> 00:12:50,258 Speaker 3: on the downside. I need to be very careful that 193 00:12:50,819 --> 00:12:53,419 Speaker 3: I explained to the New Zealand public, in particular the 194 00:12:53,419 --> 00:12:57,259 Speaker 3: recreational fisheries sector, that these changes are not going to 195 00:12:58,338 --> 00:13:02,018 Speaker 3: hobble their rights or their privileges. 196 00:13:02,218 --> 00:13:04,618 Speaker 2: And in terms of this portfolio, Shane, what have you 197 00:13:04,738 --> 00:13:08,258 Speaker 2: done to protect our oceans while you've been in charge. 198 00:13:08,458 --> 00:13:12,618 Speaker 3: Well, that's been addressed mostly by the Foreign Affairs and 199 00:13:12,699 --> 00:13:18,019 Speaker 3: Winston Peters he attended the Ocean's Conference. I mean, obviously 200 00:13:18,738 --> 00:13:23,219 Speaker 3: New Zealand First has supported Honorable Tummer Portucker with his 201 00:13:23,338 --> 00:13:29,259 Speaker 3: introduction of some reserves around the Hodaki Golf. I've closed 202 00:13:29,259 --> 00:13:33,898 Speaker 3: down some fisheries whilst I've been the Minister, such as crayfish. 203 00:13:34,179 --> 00:13:37,539 Speaker 3: I'm about to go out and consult and closing down 204 00:13:38,218 --> 00:13:42,378 Speaker 3: the harvesting of crayfish off the entirety of the coast 205 00:13:42,419 --> 00:13:45,459 Speaker 3: of Northland. Given that I come from Northland and I 206 00:13:45,498 --> 00:13:47,858 Speaker 3: was born and bred on Kaianwana, you might imagine it's 207 00:13:47,899 --> 00:13:50,939 Speaker 3: going to be quite a stiff experience. But that's a 208 00:13:50,978 --> 00:13:56,459 Speaker 3: small example which shows that I don't shy away from 209 00:13:56,458 --> 00:13:58,899 Speaker 3: making some of these decisions which will be to the 210 00:13:58,899 --> 00:14:03,779 Speaker 3: benefit of our fishery resource and the community over the 211 00:14:03,779 --> 00:14:04,659 Speaker 3: long term. 212 00:14:04,819 --> 00:14:08,179 Speaker 2: What about bottom trolling? Why can't we just say no 213 00:14:08,338 --> 00:14:08,659 Speaker 2: to that? 214 00:14:09,139 --> 00:14:14,459 Speaker 3: Oh, well, that's because David Attenborough's documentary was a gross 215 00:14:14,498 --> 00:14:18,739 Speaker 3: misrepresentation of what happens in New Zealand, and then all 216 00:14:18,819 --> 00:14:25,019 Speaker 3: these sort of kind of social media critics and warriors 217 00:14:25,179 --> 00:14:30,899 Speaker 3: mistakenly thought that our fishing industry is ruining our ecosystems 218 00:14:30,939 --> 00:14:34,659 Speaker 3: by bottom trawling. The images on that documentary are not 219 00:14:34,739 --> 00:14:39,619 Speaker 3: from New Zealand, and bottom trawling is a very skillful 220 00:14:39,899 --> 00:14:44,059 Speaker 3: set of operations and it's easily catastrophized. But New Zealand 221 00:14:44,139 --> 00:14:49,699 Speaker 3: doesn't actually apply bottom trawling to much of our economic zone. 222 00:14:49,739 --> 00:14:51,979 Speaker 3: It's just some targeted areas, and a lot of the 223 00:14:52,579 --> 00:14:58,059 Speaker 3: seamounts deeply located in the ocean, they're already protected. It 224 00:14:58,099 --> 00:15:01,018 Speaker 3: is a key feature of how the industry operates at 225 00:15:01,059 --> 00:15:04,739 Speaker 3: the moment, and with the advent and the expansion of cameras, 226 00:15:05,499 --> 00:15:09,379 Speaker 3: I'm sure over time people's fears will be allayed. But 227 00:15:09,499 --> 00:15:13,499 Speaker 3: it is an area you're right that is easily weaponized 228 00:15:13,539 --> 00:15:18,699 Speaker 3: and exaggerated. But then I often find that the green 229 00:15:18,739 --> 00:15:23,459 Speaker 3: main na drives people to catastrophize the one or three 230 00:15:23,459 --> 00:15:26,459 Speaker 3: events that happen in the fishing industry which may be egregious, 231 00:15:26,499 --> 00:15:30,979 Speaker 3: but they're not reflective of the behavior or the experience 232 00:15:31,219 --> 00:15:32,459 Speaker 3: of the entire sector. 233 00:15:32,899 --> 00:15:36,299 Speaker 1: Is I mean, if it is done so little though, 234 00:15:36,939 --> 00:15:40,179 Speaker 1: there does the benefit of just saying yes, we're going 235 00:15:40,259 --> 00:15:44,459 Speaker 1: to ban it outweigh the economic benefit of bottom trawling. 236 00:15:44,579 --> 00:15:48,859 Speaker 3: Say yeah, well, I know that there is an agenda 237 00:15:48,899 --> 00:15:51,219 Speaker 3: to ban it in New Zealand. I know that a 238 00:15:51,299 --> 00:15:54,419 Speaker 3: number of people have been agitating to bann it in 239 00:15:54,459 --> 00:15:57,979 Speaker 3: the Hodarky Golf that will not be happening for as 240 00:15:58,019 --> 00:16:01,059 Speaker 3: long as I'm the Fisheries minister, why not once you 241 00:16:01,219 --> 00:16:04,979 Speaker 3: bann one part of an activity in a certain area 242 00:16:05,019 --> 00:16:07,859 Speaker 3: of the coastline, the fishing activity just moves to another 243 00:16:07,939 --> 00:16:13,699 Speaker 3: area and the bottom trawling references which is not exclusively 244 00:16:14,219 --> 00:16:16,819 Speaker 3: but it pertains to the Orange Ruffi fishery. And obviously 245 00:16:16,899 --> 00:16:19,779 Speaker 3: the Orange Ruffi fishery has been very low in the 246 00:16:19,819 --> 00:16:23,659 Speaker 3: past and quote dropped off substantially in order for it 247 00:16:23,699 --> 00:16:26,459 Speaker 3: to recover. That's how the system works, and we're going 248 00:16:26,499 --> 00:16:29,258 Speaker 3: to have to look at those options going forward because 249 00:16:29,259 --> 00:16:32,859 Speaker 3: there is an issue obviously where the scientists and the 250 00:16:32,819 --> 00:16:36,299 Speaker 3: officials in the industry are concerned about the state of 251 00:16:36,779 --> 00:16:39,339 Speaker 3: part of the Orange ruffy fishery in the South Island. 252 00:16:39,739 --> 00:16:41,619 Speaker 3: But you can't blame bottom trawling for that. 253 00:16:44,179 --> 00:16:46,499 Speaker 5: Well, we'll have to wait and see when it comes 254 00:16:46,499 --> 00:16:49,139 Speaker 5: to actually the devil being in the details here. But 255 00:16:49,459 --> 00:16:53,138 Speaker 5: the idea of sustainability and Shane Jones is like fossil 256 00:16:53,139 --> 00:16:57,059 Speaker 5: fuels and climate action, the two do not mix. And 257 00:16:57,139 --> 00:16:59,339 Speaker 5: I think New Zealanders need to understand why this has 258 00:16:59,379 --> 00:17:03,019 Speaker 5: been so controversial for so long, because ultimately our fitting 259 00:17:03,059 --> 00:17:05,899 Speaker 5: industry is not run in a sustainable way. And Shane 260 00:17:05,979 --> 00:17:08,539 Speaker 5: Jones wants to take the shackles off and see more 261 00:17:08,739 --> 00:17:10,379 Speaker 5: of our oceans exploit it. 262 00:17:12,699 --> 00:17:16,979 Speaker 1: You've been accused of being out of touch and favoring 263 00:17:17,179 --> 00:17:21,779 Speaker 1: private or corporate interests while downplaying environmental concerns in favor 264 00:17:21,779 --> 00:17:22,939 Speaker 1: of economic development. 265 00:17:23,939 --> 00:17:25,779 Speaker 2: You must get sick of that, Shane. 266 00:17:26,659 --> 00:17:29,659 Speaker 1: Why do you think it's such a bugbear and why 267 00:17:29,699 --> 00:17:32,059 Speaker 1: do you think that you're accused of it so often? 268 00:17:33,019 --> 00:17:36,699 Speaker 3: I just think it's the blood sport of politics. I 269 00:17:36,739 --> 00:17:39,859 Speaker 3: think there's a new generation coming forward who've forgotten that 270 00:17:39,939 --> 00:17:46,139 Speaker 3: milk comes from cows, that fish is a wildlife industry. 271 00:17:47,179 --> 00:17:50,579 Speaker 3: I just accept it for the political mix. It's got 272 00:17:50,619 --> 00:17:55,699 Speaker 3: more ubiquitous with social media. But for every person that's complaining, 273 00:17:55,859 --> 00:17:59,539 Speaker 3: I can tell you there's ten other Kiwis who applaud 274 00:17:59,579 --> 00:18:03,339 Speaker 3: and barracked me for being one of the plain, candid, 275 00:18:04,899 --> 00:18:07,979 Speaker 3: articulate men in politics who says it as it is. 276 00:18:08,579 --> 00:18:11,619 Speaker 3: It's like I said, I know that triggers responses, but 277 00:18:11,739 --> 00:18:13,859 Speaker 3: then that's what politics is about. And I say to 278 00:18:13,899 --> 00:18:15,819 Speaker 3: all my critics, meet me at the ballot box. 279 00:18:16,259 --> 00:18:18,499 Speaker 2: So you're not a puppet for private interests. 280 00:18:19,179 --> 00:18:23,219 Speaker 3: I'm a great supporter and promoter for investment, for jobs 281 00:18:23,579 --> 00:18:28,259 Speaker 3: for economic growth. And I say to the viewers who 282 00:18:28,299 --> 00:18:32,059 Speaker 3: are many and listeners to your program, we are going 283 00:18:32,099 --> 00:18:37,499 Speaker 3: through some severe economic challenges. We have to become familiar 284 00:18:37,819 --> 00:18:42,499 Speaker 3: and comfortable with making trade offs. And because our society 285 00:18:42,539 --> 00:18:46,739 Speaker 3: has become so metropolitanized, far too many of my critics 286 00:18:46,739 --> 00:18:54,299 Speaker 3: have forgotten that the wildlife industries, the farming industry, the 287 00:18:54,339 --> 00:18:58,659 Speaker 3: growing industry, they represent the bulk of our export earnings. 288 00:18:59,139 --> 00:19:03,138 Speaker 3: And New Zealand will never be self sufficient unless it 289 00:19:03,299 --> 00:19:08,579 Speaker 3: can use its natural resources boost its income internationally. Because, 290 00:19:09,219 --> 00:19:12,979 Speaker 3: to the best of my ability of sought to convince 291 00:19:13,939 --> 00:19:16,339 Speaker 3: my critics living in Auckland, you don't grow rich by 292 00:19:16,339 --> 00:19:17,539 Speaker 3: doing each other's laundry. 293 00:19:19,019 --> 00:19:19,219 Speaker 1: Shame. 294 00:19:19,339 --> 00:19:22,819 Speaker 2: Lastly, what does the future look like for you? 295 00:19:22,939 --> 00:19:26,579 Speaker 1: Are you already thinking about campaign, you know for election 296 00:19:26,699 --> 00:19:27,659 Speaker 1: twenty twenty six? 297 00:19:28,859 --> 00:19:30,899 Speaker 2: Is now all go? Or do you get to wait 298 00:19:30,899 --> 00:19:32,179 Speaker 2: a few months till next year? 299 00:19:33,659 --> 00:19:39,379 Speaker 3: Well, obviously I've got my constitutional responsibilities as a cabinet minister, 300 00:19:40,219 --> 00:19:42,659 Speaker 3: and most of those decisions, not all, are made under 301 00:19:42,699 --> 00:19:46,179 Speaker 3: the law, so I can be held legally accountable for 302 00:19:46,219 --> 00:19:49,819 Speaker 3: a number of my fisheries decisions and expansion of mining. 303 00:19:50,459 --> 00:19:54,779 Speaker 3: As you know, New Zealand is now regarded as a 304 00:19:54,819 --> 00:20:00,739 Speaker 3: consequence of the Fraser Institute analysis of mining destinations, New 305 00:20:00,859 --> 00:20:04,419 Speaker 3: Zealand has gone from last to number fifteen in the 306 00:20:04,419 --> 00:20:10,499 Speaker 3: whole world in terms of a desirable investment destination for mining. 307 00:20:11,219 --> 00:20:13,099 Speaker 3: But that's what I was asked to do by the 308 00:20:13,099 --> 00:20:15,219 Speaker 3: Prime Minister. That's what I was asked to do by 309 00:20:15,339 --> 00:20:19,579 Speaker 3: our government. And I'm going to continue to expand footprint 310 00:20:20,539 --> 00:20:27,419 Speaker 3: of jobs investment. I've got no time for that duo 311 00:20:27,979 --> 00:20:30,739 Speaker 3: perched two hundred and fifty meters up in the sky 312 00:20:31,419 --> 00:20:34,019 Speaker 3: on top of a coal mine down in the West Coast. 313 00:20:34,939 --> 00:20:37,619 Speaker 3: I think that their beliefs have turned into a statement 314 00:20:37,699 --> 00:20:41,699 Speaker 3: of personal arrogance and conceit, and now they're endangering all 315 00:20:41,739 --> 00:20:44,939 Speaker 3: those jobs and that coal mine, and I just think 316 00:20:45,019 --> 00:20:50,379 Speaker 3: that it's reckless and it's as indefensible that their personal 317 00:20:51,339 --> 00:20:56,619 Speaker 3: luxury beliefs are now regarded as of such importance that 318 00:20:56,859 --> 00:20:59,659 Speaker 3: it would wipe out hundreds of jobs on the West Coast. 319 00:20:59,979 --> 00:21:01,819 Speaker 1: You can see where they're coming from, though. I mean, 320 00:21:02,099 --> 00:21:05,019 Speaker 1: when we do talk about oil and gas and coal burning, etc. 321 00:21:05,379 --> 00:21:08,059 Speaker 1: Then you've got a planet that's heating, You've got kids 322 00:21:08,099 --> 00:21:10,539 Speaker 1: worried about their future due to climate change. 323 00:21:10,539 --> 00:21:16,979 Speaker 2: We're getting bigger, scarier storms. We have a tsunami warning 324 00:21:17,019 --> 00:21:21,219 Speaker 2: the other week. I mean, we do understand people's concerns 325 00:21:21,899 --> 00:21:24,899 Speaker 2: when we talk about oil and gas and everything. 326 00:21:24,979 --> 00:21:26,898 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that there's a toss up 327 00:21:26,939 --> 00:21:30,859 Speaker 1: to be had between saying, look, we need this in 328 00:21:30,939 --> 00:21:32,779 Speaker 1: order to have energy and be able to turn the 329 00:21:32,859 --> 00:21:36,379 Speaker 1: lights on in the future. But here we do concede 330 00:21:36,459 --> 00:21:38,819 Speaker 1: and say, look, we are looking at other options. 331 00:21:39,299 --> 00:21:42,898 Speaker 3: I think often I get a bad rap. I'm the 332 00:21:42,899 --> 00:21:47,579 Speaker 3: politician that's spent over two hundred million dollars dedicated to 333 00:21:47,739 --> 00:21:52,539 Speaker 3: protecting our stock banks, to stop rivers from flooding, and 334 00:21:52,619 --> 00:21:55,379 Speaker 3: I've been told by various regional councils if that money 335 00:21:55,419 --> 00:21:58,979 Speaker 3: hadn't been allocated and spent my my good self areas 336 00:21:58,979 --> 00:22:02,299 Speaker 3: such a Taradale would have been wiped out. I'm the 337 00:22:02,339 --> 00:22:06,779 Speaker 3: guy at a time of fiscal hardship dedicated sixty odd 338 00:22:06,819 --> 00:22:10,539 Speaker 3: million dollars to exploring for supercritical energy and if we 339 00:22:10,579 --> 00:22:14,539 Speaker 3: can pull it off, it'll completely invert the price equation 340 00:22:14,699 --> 00:22:19,419 Speaker 3: of New Zealand's energy. Also the guy funding the moment 341 00:22:19,539 --> 00:22:23,898 Speaker 3: small communities from Stuart Island, Chatham Islands, the East Cape, 342 00:22:24,099 --> 00:22:30,099 Speaker 3: Northland Community Renewable energy projects, but it's easier to focus 343 00:22:30,939 --> 00:22:35,859 Speaker 3: on Shane Jones as someone who backs fossil fuels that's 344 00:22:35,899 --> 00:22:39,859 Speaker 3: going to fry the planet. And look, you can't fight 345 00:22:39,979 --> 00:22:44,859 Speaker 3: that level of emotional virtue signaling with facts, and that's 346 00:22:44,859 --> 00:22:48,219 Speaker 3: what brings me out with my own brand of hyperbleon rhetoric. 347 00:22:48,859 --> 00:22:51,139 Speaker 3: And all those bloodites that met their match and much 348 00:22:51,139 --> 00:22:51,899 Speaker 3: to a Shane. 349 00:22:52,339 --> 00:22:54,539 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Shane, thanks. 350 00:22:54,379 --> 00:22:55,939 Speaker 3: For having me. Bye. 351 00:22:58,459 --> 00:23:01,658 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 352 00:23:01,659 --> 00:23:05,739 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 353 00:23:05,859 --> 00:23:09,659 Speaker 1: at enzidherld dot co dot MZD. The Front Page is 354 00:23:09,739 --> 00:23:13,499 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also 355 00:23:13,699 --> 00:23:18,139 Speaker 1: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page 356 00:23:18,139 --> 00:23:21,859 Speaker 1: on Iheartrate or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 357 00:23:21,899 --> 00:23:25,219 Speaker 1: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.