1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Kyoda. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. It's been 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: a tumultuous time since the collapse of the Devle Property 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: Development Group. It was August last year we saw police 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: raid a rebueer a property, leaving with a number of 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: assets owned by Charlotte and Kenyon Clark. Since then, it's 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 2: been a tsunami of court hearings, social media posts and 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: he said, she said. On Monday, a new podcast called 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 2: The Fall of the House of Deval launches on iHeartRadio 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. But today on the 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 2: Front Page, host of the podcast Business Desks, Maria Slade 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: is here with us to take us through the rise 14 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: and fall of Devas So, Marie, we often hear about 15 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: the collapse of property developers, I suppose, But what do 16 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: you think makes the Devil story so different? 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 3: The big thing is that they're in statutory management and 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: a lot of kiwis won't know what that is. 19 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was about to say, roll it back a 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 2: little bit. 21 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 4: It's a very rarely used tool. 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 3: The last time we saw it in this kind of 23 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 3: situation was with the collapse of the South Canterbury Finance Group, 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 3: and that was fifteen years ago, so it's not something 25 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 3: that happens on the regular and there's a lot of 26 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 3: professionals out there, accountants, lawyers, who've never seen it in 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 3: their careers. You know, it's like a unicorn. So this 28 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 3: is a process where the government steps in effectually and 29 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 3: takes over a business and they do so because there's 30 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: a very complex situation. A lot of people have been affected, 31 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: and there's potential crimes that may have been committed, and 32 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 3: so they see fit to step in and run the business. 33 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 3: And it's such a big deal that the Governor General 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: has to sign off on it. So this is what 35 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 3: happened with Duval. And this was an ordinary townhouse apartment 36 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: developer in South Ork, so not something that you'd think 37 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 3: would attract a lot of attention under normal circumstances, but 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 3: it was a very complex group. There are seventy entities 39 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 3: that are in statue management and there's this whole process 40 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 3: now going through where PwC, one of the big four 41 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 3: accounting firms, they're in charge, so they are unraveling the 42 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 3: whole Juval group in a parallel kind of thing, that's 43 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 3: going on is the Financial Markets Authority, who's our financial 44 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 3: market's watchdog, the regulator. They are investigating duval and we 45 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 3: don't know the outcome of that process yet, so. 46 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 4: It's very complex. 47 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: Two hundred and sixty eight million dollars lost is the 48 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 3: estimate at the moment. A lot of investors who've lost 49 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 3: money tradees that are out of pocket, the IDs out 50 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: of pocket. So there's a lot of things to unravel 51 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 3: about what happened. 52 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say, I mean in terms 53 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: of victims or even just people that it involves and touches. 54 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 2: Have we any idea how many people that involves. 55 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 3: We know there's something like one hundred and thirty four investors, 56 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 3: so it's actually not a big number, but they have 57 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: lost the better part of sixty four million. Oh wow, 58 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 3: so that's quite a bit of money. PwC and their 59 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 3: latest report they say that they won't see most of 60 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: that money ever. Again, there's maybe about four or five 61 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,119 Speaker 3: million that will be recovered. So yeah, so those people 62 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: are really out of pocket. But perhaps more importantly, it's 63 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: the way this group was structured, and they were not 64 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 3: the only ones. What happened was we saw a new 65 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: breed of property developers and investment companies that came through 66 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 3: because we had this massive property boom as we know 67 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 3: during COVID, and they were making the most of kind 68 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: of an exclusion in the law. So they are offering 69 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 3: what's known as wholesale investments, which are unregulated. So that's 70 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: not like your term deposit. You go down the bank 71 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: and you know the bank has to abide by all 72 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: sorts of disclosure requirements and regulations. 73 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: Make sure you can get the money back. 74 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: Absolutely, wholesale investments are in a category of their own 75 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 3: and they're really meant for people who can stand to 76 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 3: take the risk. And there's two ways you can become 77 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: a wholesale investor as you're wealthy and there's a set 78 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: of wealth criteria, or you can be an eligible investor, 79 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: and that's when an accountant or a lawyer or a 80 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: financial planner signs off a certificate for you that says, yep, 81 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 3: you know what you're doing, You've got enough experience. And 82 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: so this new kind of sector of property investment companies 83 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 3: was making the most of that exclusion, and the Financial 84 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 3: Markets Authority was really concerned they that it was being 85 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 3: abused and these investments were being offered to people that 86 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: it was inappropriate for them. They were just ordinary mums 87 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: and dads and they shouldn't have been taking on such 88 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 3: high risk investments. And so the jury is out as 89 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 3: to whether that happened, but the FMA has taken a 90 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 3: bit of action regarding these activities. And the thing is 91 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 3: these products are advertised very widely on Facebook, on Instagram 92 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 3: and newspapers, so it's not really they're sort of advertising 93 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 3: them like a consumer product, like an ordinary kind of thing, 94 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 3: when really they're meant for a specific niche of very 95 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 3: wealthy people who know what they're getting into kind of things. 96 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 3: That's that's one of the big concerns about the environment 97 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 3: that Duval rose up in. 98 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so at the end of all this, or whenever 99 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: that may be, we might see some new regulations. 100 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 3: Well, it doesn't appear to be any political will for that. 101 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: And there are some people, a lot of people actually, 102 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 3: who argue that we need this regime because it's a 103 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 3: way for up and coming small businesses to raise money 104 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 3: without all the regulation. Because if they've got to go 105 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 3: through a retail offer, the documentation is out of this world, 106 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 3: and it is pretty difficult if you're just a high 107 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 3: growth startup. For example, you've got a big idea, you 108 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 3: need to raise some money. There are some well healed 109 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: people out there who are willing to back you. If 110 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 3: you've got to go through all the regulation of a 111 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 3: retail offer, it would really slow you down. 112 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 4: And so that's the idea. 113 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: But it's just that it's supposed to be, as I say, 114 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: this small category of high net worth people who use 115 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 3: this regime, and an actual fact, what's happened as it 116 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 3: seems to have spread out to a much wider group 117 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 3: of kiwis and you know, some of them have been 118 00:05:58,839 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: caught by it. 119 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 2: Talk me it, talk to me about their directors or 120 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: the clerks, right, they're quite flashy. 121 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 3: Ah, yeah, the clerks became sort of quite characters, I 122 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 3: guess in the business world. Again, you've got to remember 123 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 3: that this is a South Auckland townhouse and apartment developers, 124 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: so you know, pretty run of the mill really. But 125 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 3: the clerks themselves were not run of the mill. They 126 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 3: were prolific self promoters. They made a reality TV series 127 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: about themselves. 128 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: It was even a trailer for that. 129 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: There certainly was. Yes, we've never seen the actual series. 130 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 3: The Saturtary management happened, and it's not quite clear what 131 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 3: actually happened to that reality TV series, but I understand 132 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: it does exist. 133 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: My name is Kenyan Clark. I've been developing properly now 134 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: for close to twenty seven years. I've been incredibly privileged 135 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: to work alongside my wife Charlotte. 136 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 5: At home, Keingyan is a big Caudleigh bear. When it 137 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 5: comes to the children at work, Kenyan is like a 138 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 5: bull and a China store. 139 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 3: So it's never aired, but they were running the Kenyon 140 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: Clark was running property master classes. Charlotte Clark was making 141 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 3: videos online about how to invest in property. They sponsored 142 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 3: the Blues Rugby franchise. They had a charitable foundation. They 143 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: gave Christmas gift baskets to children underprivileged families. So you know, 144 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 3: they were really out there, sort of loud and proud, 145 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: and that was kind of part of the marketing of 146 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 3: Duval because they were wanting to sell houses off the 147 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 3: plans for one thing. You know, a lot of property 148 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 3: developers do that. They have to sell a certain amount 149 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: of houses off the plans before they can get a 150 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 3: project underway, so that's not uncommon. But they were sort 151 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 3: of really out there hard selling and then on the 152 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 3: other side, they were wanting this investment that we were 153 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 3: just talking about. They were having to bring an investment 154 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 3: from investors into their funds to try and you know, 155 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 3: bankroll effectively the projects that they were trying to get 156 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: off the ground. 157 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: And in terms of buying off of plans you met 158 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: and you mentioned that yet that obviously happens. I would 159 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,239 Speaker 2: be terrified personally, but I also don't play the pokes 160 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: or anything, so because I've just got the worst luck 161 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: in the world. What was different do you think with 162 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: their plans versus I mean, have any of their houses 163 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: been built? 164 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: Oh? 165 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 3: Yes, they have done some developments, definitely. The most notable 166 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: is the Lakewood Plaza Tower, which Aucklanders would know because 167 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 3: it's a big, tall, fifteen story apartment tower just by 168 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: the Manico City Interchange and it's the only big, tall 169 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 3: apartment building. 170 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 4: There, so it's kind of a bit out of place. 171 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 3: It's a bit of a landmark, and that was their 172 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 3: flagship development and that probably did give them quite a 173 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 3: bit of credibility. People probably thought, well, if they can 174 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 3: do that building, you know that they must be all well, 175 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 3: that would give me a second thought. 176 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, they did have a lot of problems with it. 177 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 4: It was two years late. 178 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 3: They ended up in a huge, big dispute with the 179 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 3: construction company that they'd partnered with that that ended up 180 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 3: in a six point six million dollar settlement which has 181 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: still not been paid. And then there was a water 182 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: pipe that burst on the eleventh floor and flooded the building, 183 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 3: creating huge damage which took quite a long time to remedy. 184 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 3: I think it's only recently been fully remedied. Okay, I'm 185 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 3: back to being terrified. Yeah, So there were a lot 186 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: of problems with that, with that apartment building, but they 187 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: did do others that There was the Mountain Vsera State 188 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 3: in Marngari, which is a I think it's about one 189 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 3: hundred and eighty odd units that is just about finished. 190 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 3: It's been dragging on for an awful long time, but PwC, 191 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 3: the statutory managers, have been finishing off the projects and 192 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 3: that one st to be finished probably beginning the next year. 193 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 3: And there were some others as well. But then there 194 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 3: were others that such as the Verge apartments in Mount Wellington. 195 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 3: Again people might know them because you would see them 196 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 3: as you go down the Southern Motorway. Is these twin 197 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: tower apartments that are unfinished. They're sort of a skeleton 198 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 3: kind of thing. And again, PwC. I'm busy trying to 199 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 3: sell that at the moment. So you know, they did 200 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 3: do some developments, so there wasn't anything particularly different about 201 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: them in that regard. But what kind of happened at 202 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 3: that time twenty twenty twenty twenty one, as we had 203 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 3: this massive property boom, As we know, property prices went 204 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 3: up this ridiculous fifty percent, and there are a whole 205 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 3: set of reasons for that. But then they came crashing 206 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 3: down again. And so if you had bought a house 207 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 3: off the plans during that time, say you had paid 208 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 3: agreed to pay eight hundred grand for a townhouse, and 209 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: then suddenly the property market crashes, you have to go 210 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: and settle on that property. It might only be worth 211 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: seven hundred or six fifty, And so the bank says, 212 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: hang on a minute, we are not going to lend 213 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 3: you eight hundred or you know, maybe whatever your deposit 214 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 3: was the equivalent of that, because it's not worth that now. 215 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 3: And so you were stuck. You might have put down 216 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 3: a five percent deposit or a ten percent deposit on 217 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 3: that property you've got to then find the rest to 218 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 3: pay for a property that is now no longer worth that. 219 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 3: So that's what happened to quite a few people around 220 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 3: the country at that time when we had this massive 221 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 3: spike up and then a big full. 222 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: What's the status of the Duval group at the moment. 223 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: It's still in statutory management. That process will go on 224 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 3: for quite some time. They're gradually working their way through it. 225 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 3: They're gradually selling off the assets that there were there. 226 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 3: What the end point will be we don't know, because 227 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 3: as we know, the Financial Markets Authority is still investigating Duval. 228 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: That's a parallel process. We don't know where they're at 229 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 3: with that. No charges have been laid yet, so that was. 230 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: Going to be my next question. 231 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, typically no charges have been laid against Duval or 232 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 3: the clerks regarding the collapse, and we don't know how 233 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 3: that process will play out yet. The watchdog obviously keeps 234 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 3: its cards very close to its chest. They don't tell us, 235 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 3: so we don't know. Are they accused of anything not yet. No, No, 236 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: there have been no charge. 237 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: Just the presence of investigations at the moment is what 238 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: makes this kind of like people scratch their heads. 239 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: Well, it was quite a dramatic sort of start, I 240 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 3: guess because you may have read in the news about 241 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 3: how they raided their house in August twenty twenty four. 242 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: You know, we've never seen scenes like it. Basically, this 243 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: was a lovely house in leafy Victoria Avenue and Revenue 244 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 3: in rimu Era, and next minute, you know, you've got 245 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 3: the FMA and flack jackets supported by police, raiding the 246 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 3: property first thing on a Friday morning and coming out 247 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: with gun cases. You know, the media were tipped off 248 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 3: by locals and turned up to sort of see these 249 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: scenes of all this kind of thing going on. 250 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 4: So it's unprecedented. 251 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 3: And yeah, so I guess that they kind of hit 252 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 3: the headlines for that as well. And their passports have 253 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 3: been seized, they're not allowed to leave the country and 254 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 3: all their assets have been seized while this process goes through. 255 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 3: So it's got a way to play out yet. 256 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 2: And in terms of I mean, they've not really gone 257 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: to ground though, have they. 258 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 4: No, you couldn't say that. 259 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 5: No. 260 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 3: The Clerks have always been pretty good at promoting themselves 261 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 3: and they're fairly active on social media. They have you know, 262 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 3: they have their supporters and they have their say on 263 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 3: social media, so that's fair enough. And yeah, I mean, 264 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 3: as I say, we just don't know where this is 265 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: going to finish yet. 266 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 2: So of course since August last year, we've seen a 267 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: lot of coverage of the clerks and everything they're in 268 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 2: and out of court. They've even got the services of 269 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: high profile defense lawyer Ron Mansfield as well. What's all 270 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: the legal activity about if no charges have been laid. 271 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 3: There's been quite a process to go through, and one 272 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 3: of the big things was the asset Preservation order as 273 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 3: it's called. So that was the order that the FMA 274 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: got seizing the clerk's assets and the assets of the 275 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 3: Duvile business. So they needed to do that in order 276 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: to kick out the process that they got it well, 277 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 3: it gets a wee bit technical, but they got it 278 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 3: under what was order without notice basis, which basically means 279 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 3: they kind of charged into the court, the court said 280 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 3: y's okay, and then the clerks had to have their say, 281 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 3: so that is an on notice order and so that 282 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 3: hearing didn't happen until June because there was a lot 283 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: of toing and throwing. The clerks didn't have legal representation, 284 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 3: and it took a while for that process to work 285 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 3: its way through. That then did happen. The asset preservation 286 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 3: order was reconfirmed and so everything status quo remains and 287 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 3: if the authorities continue to do their thing, but that 288 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 3: had to happen first the clerks contested it. They have 289 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 3: also gone to quite long lengths to have all the 290 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 3: details surrounding why those orders remain in place suppressed, so 291 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: we can't talk. 292 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 4: About any of that. 293 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: They are also fighting PwC because as the satutary managers, 294 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 3: they want to speak to them. They want the clerks 295 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 3: to come in for an interview, and they actually gained 296 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 3: a court order that the clerks have to do that, 297 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 3: but the clerks are fighting that as well. 298 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 4: There was actually so just. 299 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 2: Appealing, like just appeal upon appeal. 300 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: Yes, there's a lot of appealing going on, and there 301 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 3: was an appeal court hearing just a few weeks ago 302 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 3: of the order that they should front up to PwC 303 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 3: for an interview. They have been interviewed by the FMA 304 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 3: to be clear that they can't really avoid that. But yeah, 305 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: they are resistant going in to see pw C at 306 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 3: this point in time. So we're waiting on the Court 307 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 3: of Appeals ruling on that. So, yeah, there's a lot 308 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 3: of legal tooing and throwing going on. 309 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: Why did you decide to do this investigation in this 310 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: podcast series. 311 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 3: I've been covering Duval since twenty twenty one, and I've 312 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: crossed the woods with the clerks quite a few times. 313 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 3: They are quite combative, and they were very unhappy about 314 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: a column that I wrote way back in twenty twenty 315 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 3: one at where I talked about this new breed of 316 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: property developer that had sprung up, making the use of 317 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: this eligible investor exclusion and just sort of pointing out that, 318 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: you know, possibly there's a few problems with this, which 319 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 3: you know, the was already onto and they didn't like it, 320 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 3: and they tried to well they did so my employer 321 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 3: at the time, the NBR National Business Review. 322 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 4: The matter was settled in the end. 323 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 3: The column remains online, but that kind of kicked things 324 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 3: off and so and it wasn't just me, there were 325 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: lots of other business journalists looking into them as well, 326 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 3: and so we have continued to cover them, and as 327 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 3: you say, they're just such characters. 328 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 4: They sort of. 329 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 3: Put themselves out there all the things that they did, 330 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 3: and so we've just kept on following the story. And 331 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 3: it sort of became clear that something was going to happen, 332 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: but we didn't realize it would be quite as dramatic 333 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 3: as it was. We didn't think the government was going 334 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 3: to bring out the big guns and literally literally and 335 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 3: you know our point statutory managers. So that was one 336 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: out of the box. But yes, it's been a fascinating 337 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: story and like we say, not over yet. 338 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: I believe it's important to ask yourself, how good can 339 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: life get if I was free. I'm an advocate for 340 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: your freedom. I'm an advocate for my family's breedom. The 341 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: poverty cycle is generational, and so is the cycle of 342 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: actually built in generational wealth. I encourage you to be 343 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: the first one in your family to make it out 344 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: of the matrix and to lead the way for future generations. 345 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 2: So they haven't been charged with anything. We've seen them 346 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 2: in an out of court though with Ron Mansfield. 347 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 4: Et cetera, et cetera. 348 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: There have been allegations though, and you've spoken to some 349 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: people behind those allegations right for the podcast. 350 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 3: Yes, we've spoken to investors, a former employee, and yeah, 351 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 3: they have said a lot of things about the way 352 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 3: Duval operated. And it's pretty interesting because it's kind of 353 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: like the people who were at the coal Face talking 354 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 3: about how the group operated, and they have made a 355 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: certain set of claims about, you know, how things were done. 356 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 3: We've put all this to the Clerks and so far 357 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 3: they have declined to respond to us. But I think 358 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 3: listeners will find it pretty interesting, just as I say, 359 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 3: hearing from the cold face the inside track of how 360 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 3: this sort of pretty out there group operated and what 361 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 3: the effect has been on some of those people who've 362 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: been kind of left high and dry. 363 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 2: Have the Clerks participated in interviews for the. 364 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 4: Podcast, No, they haven't. 365 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 3: We've made quite a few offers to them, you know, 366 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 3: and we would love to talk to them, We really would, 367 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 3: and the offer remains open, but at this point they've 368 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 3: declined other than some statements that Kenyan Clark has voluntarily 369 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: given to us, But no, he has declined to sit 370 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 3: down for an interview with the podcast. We are still 371 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 3: hoping that he will, because, yeah, we really would like 372 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 3: to hear their side of the story. It's a fascinating tale. 373 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not all said and done as well. 374 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: The episodes are being released. 375 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 3: Weekly, yes, so we've got our first two episodes coming 376 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 3: out on Monday the first, and then there'll be an 377 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: episode a week for the following three weeks. But we 378 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: really do hope this isn't the end of the story. 379 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 3: We would like to speak to the clerks, and. 380 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: There's plenty of time for them to come forward and 381 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 2: speak to you. 382 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 4: There is there is, so you know we do have 383 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 4: that happens. 384 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 2: I'd come and speak to you. So you mentioned the 385 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: series out obviously December first, the first two episodes, I 386 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: cannot wait. And where can you find them? 387 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 3: All the usual places you get your podcasts, and obviously 388 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 3: there will be links on the Herald site and business desk, 389 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 3: and we had some support from the Brian Gaynor Investigative 390 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 3: Journalism for this, so it will be free to anyone 391 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: who wants to have a listen. So people may know 392 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 3: that Brian Gaynor was an investment guy who used to 393 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: write for The Herald and he founded Milford Asset Management 394 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 3: and he was really big on investigative journalism and so 395 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: as part of his legacy, there is this fund there 396 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 3: that journalists can apply to for projects, and so we 397 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: applied for this one and they agreed because one of 398 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 3: the really important things we're trying to do with it 399 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 3: is sort of throw it forward and look at why 400 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 3: can we keep getting attracted to these kind of maybe 401 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 3: fringe property schemes because it's not the first we've seen 402 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 3: they you know, they just keep popping up, really and 403 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 3: you know a lot of people are saying New Zealand 404 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 3: just need to get over this property thing. You know, 405 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 3: the property market is not going to look in the 406 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: next few years how it has looked over the past 407 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 3: maybe thirty years. The environment has changed, and we need 408 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 3: to get out of this mindset that, you know, bricks 409 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 3: and water are the only thing you should put your 410 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 3: money into and become a bit more mature in the 411 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 3: way we invest. And the gain of Fund was really 412 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 3: interested in trying to help maybe educate KEI is a 413 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 3: bit better. 414 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: Nice. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Maria. 415 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 4: Thank you. 416 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 417 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 418 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: at enziherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is 419 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who was also 420 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 421 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts and Tune 422 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.