1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talks B. Follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,693 --> 00:00:19,733 Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 4 00:00:19,773 --> 00:00:24,813 Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now the Leyton 5 00:00:24,933 --> 00:00:27,653 Speaker 1: Smith podcast powered by news talks it B. 6 00:00:28,093 --> 00:00:31,493 Speaker 2: Welcome to podcasts three to one nine for March eleven, 7 00:00:31,613 --> 00:00:35,933 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six. The recent announcement by the Reserve Bank 8 00:00:36,013 --> 00:00:40,533 Speaker 2: that was focused on money, specifically cash and EIGHTMS and 9 00:00:40,693 --> 00:00:47,373 Speaker 2: commercial bank branches has caused some interesting discussion. Professor Robert mcconock, 10 00:00:47,533 --> 00:00:51,653 Speaker 2: who once worked at the Reserve Bank, is unafraid pleasantly 11 00:00:51,733 --> 00:00:56,413 Speaker 2: so to express his opinions on almost anything, and especially 12 00:00:56,493 --> 00:00:59,133 Speaker 2: so in his field of expertise. His thoughts on cash, 13 00:00:59,653 --> 00:01:05,293 Speaker 2: cbdc's privacy versus government control are valuable, as also his 14 00:01:05,493 --> 00:01:09,573 Speaker 2: political submissions in Podcasts three one nine, and as is 15 00:01:09,693 --> 00:01:13,573 Speaker 2: our usual want, we expand the conversation into other areas 16 00:01:13,573 --> 00:01:18,093 Speaker 2: of interest and importance. Now, you won't be at all 17 00:01:18,133 --> 00:01:20,213 Speaker 2: surprised when I say that there is so much going 18 00:01:20,213 --> 00:01:21,933 Speaker 2: on in the world at the moment, is very difficult 19 00:01:21,973 --> 00:01:27,133 Speaker 2: to nail down other matters. Apart from the interview that 20 00:01:27,653 --> 00:01:30,773 Speaker 2: features on the podcast, but there is something I want 21 00:01:30,773 --> 00:01:33,813 Speaker 2: to include at the back end of the podcast, right 22 00:01:33,853 --> 00:01:37,333 Speaker 2: after the Mailroom, which I believe will be of interest 23 00:01:37,973 --> 00:01:42,333 Speaker 2: to everybody unless you've already discovered it for yourself, but 24 00:01:42,453 --> 00:01:45,613 Speaker 2: as a clue. It has to do with the Iran 25 00:01:45,653 --> 00:01:49,533 Speaker 2: War and it's fascinating. But first, and keeping in line 26 00:01:49,573 --> 00:01:53,453 Speaker 2: with the interview today with Professor McCulloch, let me draw 27 00:01:53,493 --> 00:01:58,693 Speaker 2: your attention to something else. They track every dollar you move. 28 00:01:59,453 --> 00:02:03,453 Speaker 2: Try to wire fifteen thousand dollars. This is an American piece. 29 00:02:03,853 --> 00:02:06,933 Speaker 2: Try to wire fifteen thousand dollars to a foreign bank 30 00:02:06,973 --> 00:02:10,533 Speaker 2: account sometime and see what happens. You'll be asked to 31 00:02:10,573 --> 00:02:13,853 Speaker 2: fill out compliance forms explaining the purpose of the transfer. 32 00:02:14,333 --> 00:02:18,613 Speaker 2: Your bank's compliance department will review the transaction. A currency 33 00:02:18,693 --> 00:02:23,373 Speaker 2: transaction report will be filed with the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, 34 00:02:23,693 --> 00:02:27,013 Speaker 2: and depending on the bank, you may receive a follow 35 00:02:27,093 --> 00:02:30,213 Speaker 2: up phone call asking you to further justify why you're 36 00:02:30,253 --> 00:02:33,413 Speaker 2: moving your own money. Try to open a bank account overseas, 37 00:02:33,653 --> 00:02:36,773 Speaker 2: and it gets even more fun. Under the Foreign Account 38 00:02:36,853 --> 00:02:42,533 Speaker 2: Tax Compliance Act or FATKA if ATCA, every foreign bank 39 00:02:42,573 --> 00:02:46,733 Speaker 2: on Earth, every foreign bank on Earth is required to 40 00:02:46,813 --> 00:02:51,293 Speaker 2: report American account holders to the Internet Revenue Service. The 41 00:02:51,333 --> 00:02:54,973 Speaker 2: paperwork burden is so heavy that thousands of foreign banks 42 00:02:55,413 --> 00:02:59,853 Speaker 2: have simply stopped accepting American clients. Altogether, deposit ten thousand 43 00:02:59,893 --> 00:03:03,293 Speaker 2: dollars in cash, and the government automatically files a report. 44 00:03:03,613 --> 00:03:07,213 Speaker 2: Split it into two deposits of five thousand dollars to 45 00:03:07,373 --> 00:03:11,373 Speaker 2: avoid that report, and guess what You've committed a federal 46 00:03:11,413 --> 00:03:17,493 Speaker 2: crime called structuring, punishable by up to five years in prison. Now, 47 00:03:17,533 --> 00:03:22,373 Speaker 2: this is the financial surveillance infrastructure that every American lives under. 48 00:03:22,933 --> 00:03:26,533 Speaker 2: It was built over decades, starting with the Bank's Secrecy 49 00:03:26,533 --> 00:03:30,293 Speaker 2: Act in nineteen seventy, and expanded massively by the Patriot 50 00:03:30,373 --> 00:03:33,933 Speaker 2: Act after nine to eleven. We're told it exists to 51 00:03:34,093 --> 00:03:39,413 Speaker 2: catch money laundering, drug trafficking, terrorism financing, and financial crimes. 52 00:03:39,733 --> 00:03:44,773 Speaker 2: Yet over twelve years, Jeffrey Epstein moved three hundred and 53 00:03:44,853 --> 00:03:49,653 Speaker 2: seventy eight million dollars across two hundred and seventy wire 54 00:03:49,733 --> 00:03:54,893 Speaker 2: transfers without a single flag. A Bank of New York Mallon, 55 00:03:54,933 --> 00:03:58,213 Speaker 2: one of the oldest and largest financial institutions in America, 56 00:03:58,653 --> 00:04:01,573 Speaker 2: processed every one of them. Every one of them. The 57 00:04:01,613 --> 00:04:06,653 Speaker 2: bank's own compliance review could not identify a legitimate business 58 00:04:06,693 --> 00:04:10,533 Speaker 2: purpose for any of the two hundred and seventy transactions, 59 00:04:11,373 --> 00:04:16,213 Speaker 2: and no suspicious activity report was filed until twenty nineteen, 60 00:04:16,933 --> 00:04:21,253 Speaker 2: only after Epstein had been arrested on federal sex trafficking charges. 61 00:04:21,693 --> 00:04:24,933 Speaker 2: More than a decade passed between when the transactions occurred 62 00:04:25,013 --> 00:04:28,853 Speaker 2: and when regulators were notified. This was not an isolated 63 00:04:28,853 --> 00:04:33,053 Speaker 2: case either. Both JP Morgan Chase, and Deutsche Bank settled 64 00:04:33,133 --> 00:04:38,253 Speaker 2: lawsuits related to related to their Epstein banking relationships. The 65 00:04:38,293 --> 00:04:42,733 Speaker 2: pattern was identical. Process the money, ignore the red flags. 66 00:04:43,293 --> 00:04:47,773 Speaker 2: Settled quietly later, but while the banks were asleep. Another arm, 67 00:04:47,813 --> 00:04:51,773 Speaker 2: as the government was not. The Organized Crime Drug Enforcement 68 00:04:51,893 --> 00:04:56,813 Speaker 2: Task Forces Fusion Center, got that which falls together financial 69 00:04:56,813 --> 00:05:00,613 Speaker 2: intelligence from the Treasury Department. Another federal law enforcement agencies 70 00:05:01,133 --> 00:05:05,093 Speaker 2: compiled a trove of data on Epstein and his associates, 71 00:05:05,613 --> 00:05:10,253 Speaker 2: suspicious financial transactions, border crossing, and other records from across 72 00:05:10,333 --> 00:05:14,693 Speaker 2: multiple agencies. Now, based on that intelligence, the Drug Enforcement 73 00:05:14,693 --> 00:05:20,693 Speaker 2: Administration opened a formal investigation code named Operation Chain Reaction, 74 00:05:21,093 --> 00:05:27,373 Speaker 2: targeting Epstein and fourteen co conspirators for illegitimate wire transfers 75 00:05:27,413 --> 00:05:31,693 Speaker 2: tied to narcotics and prostitution in the US Virgin Islands. 76 00:05:31,733 --> 00:05:35,893 Speaker 2: And New York City, and once again, nothing came of it. 77 00:05:36,373 --> 00:05:39,133 Speaker 2: The investigation ran for at least five years, no charges 78 00:05:39,173 --> 00:05:41,893 Speaker 2: were ever filed, and the names of all fourteen co 79 00:05:41,893 --> 00:05:45,893 Speaker 2: conspirators remain redacted to this day. So what exactly is 80 00:05:45,893 --> 00:05:50,493 Speaker 2: the point of all the surveillance and regulation, all this infrastructure, 81 00:05:50,533 --> 00:05:53,973 Speaker 2: the reports, the compliance departments, the cross agency intelligence sharing, 82 00:05:54,013 --> 00:05:58,813 Speaker 2: the billions spent building a surveillance apparatus that monitors every 83 00:05:59,013 --> 00:06:03,133 Speaker 2: dollar the average American moves, and it couldn't produce a 84 00:06:03,213 --> 00:06:06,973 Speaker 2: single charge against the most prolific child sex trafficking operation 85 00:06:07,813 --> 00:06:12,133 Speaker 2: in modern history. But a split of ten thousand dollars 86 00:06:12,253 --> 00:06:16,613 Speaker 2: deposit into two transactions at your local bank and you're 87 00:06:16,653 --> 00:06:20,733 Speaker 2: facing five years in federal prison. The entire Know your 88 00:06:20,813 --> 00:06:25,893 Speaker 2: Customer regime, the currency transaction reports, the suspicious activity reports, 89 00:06:26,373 --> 00:06:32,253 Speaker 2: FATKA and anti structuring laws, all of it functions perfectly 90 00:06:33,173 --> 00:06:39,213 Speaker 2: against you. Against you is emphasized. Now there's more, but 91 00:06:39,413 --> 00:06:42,053 Speaker 2: you get the picture. Now, what's that got to do 92 00:06:42,173 --> 00:06:48,693 Speaker 2: with the discussion today? And the cash and secrecy and 93 00:06:48,973 --> 00:06:52,813 Speaker 2: the cdcds and the government tracking everything that you spend. 94 00:06:52,973 --> 00:06:58,333 Speaker 2: Plenty and most of it will be discussed in the 95 00:06:58,373 --> 00:07:02,453 Speaker 2: conversation to follow with Professor McCullock right after a short break. 96 00:07:10,213 --> 00:07:13,853 Speaker 2: Buccolan is a natural oral vaccine in a tablet form 97 00:07:13,933 --> 00:07:18,333 Speaker 2: called bacterial liesate. It'll boost your natural protection against bacterial 98 00:07:18,333 --> 00:07:21,293 Speaker 2: infections in your chest and throat. A three day course 99 00:07:21,373 --> 00:07:24,013 Speaker 2: of seven Bucklan tablets will help your body build up 100 00:07:24,053 --> 00:07:28,373 Speaker 2: to three months of immunity against bugs which cause bacterial 101 00:07:28,453 --> 00:07:31,613 Speaker 2: cold symptoms. So who can take buccolan well, the whole 102 00:07:31,613 --> 00:07:34,653 Speaker 2: family From two years of age and upwards. A course 103 00:07:34,693 --> 00:07:38,053 Speaker 2: of Buckelan tablets offers cost effective and safe protection from 104 00:07:38,093 --> 00:07:42,133 Speaker 2: colds and chills. Protection becomes effective a few days after 105 00:07:42,173 --> 00:07:44,973 Speaker 2: you take buccolan and lasts for up to three months 106 00:07:45,013 --> 00:07:48,173 Speaker 2: following the three day course. Buccolan can be taken throughout 107 00:07:48,213 --> 00:07:51,333 Speaker 2: the cold season, over winter or all year round. And 108 00:07:51,413 --> 00:07:55,373 Speaker 2: remember Buckolan is not intended as an alternative to influenza vaccination, 109 00:07:55,853 --> 00:07:58,733 Speaker 2: but may be used along with the flu vaccination for 110 00:07:59,093 --> 00:08:02,373 Speaker 2: added protection. And keep in mind that millions of doses 111 00:08:02,413 --> 00:08:05,693 Speaker 2: have been taken by Kiwis for over fifty years. Only 112 00:08:05,733 --> 00:08:09,493 Speaker 2: available from your pharmacist. Always read the lay and users 113 00:08:09,493 --> 00:08:12,933 Speaker 2: directed and see your doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker 114 00:08:12,973 --> 00:08:26,493 Speaker 2: Auckland Latam Smith. Now it was almost two years ago, 115 00:08:26,653 --> 00:08:29,413 Speaker 2: not quite, because it was August of twenty four when 116 00:08:29,493 --> 00:08:34,173 Speaker 2: we last spoke with Professor Robert McCulloch, and it was 117 00:08:34,213 --> 00:08:38,493 Speaker 2: a very interesting conversation. And with the announcement by the 118 00:08:38,613 --> 00:08:43,533 Speaker 2: Reserve Bank which came out of nowhere and almost stunned everybody. 119 00:08:43,573 --> 00:08:48,733 Speaker 2: I was stunned with regard to what they're advising the 120 00:08:48,813 --> 00:08:52,293 Speaker 2: banking system they must do, and they're doing a survey 121 00:08:52,333 --> 00:08:54,493 Speaker 2: on it and they want you to take part in it. 122 00:08:54,933 --> 00:08:59,373 Speaker 2: But the point being that they've been closing down eightyms 123 00:08:59,533 --> 00:09:03,933 Speaker 2: and branch banks or bank branches for the last couple 124 00:09:03,973 --> 00:09:08,333 Speaker 2: of years or if not longer, and it's made life 125 00:09:08,413 --> 00:09:12,813 Speaker 2: very difficult for some. And I wouldn't include myself in that, 126 00:09:13,493 --> 00:09:17,333 Speaker 2: but they've caused me some issues because because the Westpac 127 00:09:17,373 --> 00:09:21,733 Speaker 2: people who are my local and my bank, not only 128 00:09:22,453 --> 00:09:25,053 Speaker 2: took out the ATM, they then followed with the not 129 00:09:25,093 --> 00:09:27,373 Speaker 2: it was the other way around. They are not only 130 00:09:27,373 --> 00:09:30,453 Speaker 2: closed down the branch, they took out the ATM after 131 00:09:30,493 --> 00:09:33,973 Speaker 2: a little while, and that made it made it frustrating. 132 00:09:34,493 --> 00:09:36,773 Speaker 2: So the question is why would they be doing it 133 00:09:36,813 --> 00:09:39,253 Speaker 2: and who better to turn to than the Professor Robert 134 00:09:39,293 --> 00:09:42,693 Speaker 2: mccuock because this is of a great interest to him. 135 00:09:43,133 --> 00:09:46,693 Speaker 2: I know that because of the previous conversation we had 136 00:09:47,133 --> 00:09:49,693 Speaker 2: and the fact that the Reserve Bank is undertaking this 137 00:09:50,613 --> 00:09:54,853 Speaker 2: approach from out of nowhere. And Robert McCulloch worked the 138 00:09:54,893 --> 00:09:57,533 Speaker 2: Reserve Bank for a period of time before he went 139 00:09:57,573 --> 00:10:01,293 Speaker 2: overseas very good to have you back on the podcast, 140 00:10:01,333 --> 00:10:06,413 Speaker 2: are you well, yes, yes, not too bad, excellent. So 141 00:10:07,053 --> 00:10:09,693 Speaker 2: this move by the Reserve, what would you put it 142 00:10:09,733 --> 00:10:11,093 Speaker 2: down to How would you explain it? 143 00:10:12,013 --> 00:10:19,133 Speaker 3: Well, I'd explain it probably more on equity inequality lines 144 00:10:19,493 --> 00:10:24,813 Speaker 3: than anything in the sense that there's a concern maybe 145 00:10:24,813 --> 00:10:30,653 Speaker 3: in the provinces, in regions where people relied on maybe 146 00:10:30,653 --> 00:10:34,693 Speaker 3: a branch or a cash machine. Then it's taken out. 147 00:10:35,333 --> 00:10:39,253 Speaker 3: And the objective of the bank that you were alluding 148 00:10:39,253 --> 00:10:41,533 Speaker 3: to before is what does it want out of it? Well, 149 00:10:41,573 --> 00:10:43,973 Speaker 3: to make more money, you know, it's a profit maximizing 150 00:10:45,413 --> 00:10:49,493 Speaker 3: Australian owned bank that we mainly bank with and to 151 00:10:50,053 --> 00:10:52,853 Speaker 3: make more money. It's not worth them servicing the cash 152 00:10:52,893 --> 00:10:55,093 Speaker 3: machine or the branch, and they take it out and 153 00:10:55,173 --> 00:11:00,773 Speaker 3: it may particularly hurt maybe a low income person, someone 154 00:11:00,853 --> 00:11:04,253 Speaker 3: living you know, who finds it hard then to access it, 155 00:11:04,333 --> 00:11:07,333 Speaker 3: they have to drive a lot, a lot further, so 156 00:11:07,933 --> 00:11:12,013 Speaker 3: that's more hurting a low income person. So that's more 157 00:11:12,013 --> 00:11:14,373 Speaker 3: an equity issue that the bank is taking out because 158 00:11:14,373 --> 00:11:17,493 Speaker 3: they think it's more efficient. They can run their business 159 00:11:17,493 --> 00:11:20,173 Speaker 3: more efficiently and make more money that way. So there's 160 00:11:20,173 --> 00:11:23,133 Speaker 3: a bit of a clash in terms of an economics 161 00:11:23,133 --> 00:11:27,973 Speaker 3: what we call sort of equity and efficiency, and you know, 162 00:11:28,013 --> 00:11:34,253 Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank is somewhat concerned about that, and you know, 163 00:11:34,333 --> 00:11:37,333 Speaker 3: related to that is the bigger agenda that I'm quite 164 00:11:37,373 --> 00:11:39,973 Speaker 3: supportive of the Reserve Bank, although although it you know, 165 00:11:40,013 --> 00:11:42,613 Speaker 3: it has messed up so many things that last number 166 00:11:42,613 --> 00:11:45,533 Speaker 3: of years. But on the future of cash, the Reserve 167 00:11:45,573 --> 00:11:49,173 Speaker 3: Bank has been quite good and that it's defending cash. 168 00:11:49,333 --> 00:11:52,293 Speaker 3: That the banks to make more money, would like there 169 00:11:52,293 --> 00:11:56,013 Speaker 3: to be no cash, everything to be electronic. It's very 170 00:11:56,053 --> 00:11:59,373 Speaker 3: expensive for them to handle cash. So there is a 171 00:11:59,413 --> 00:12:01,813 Speaker 3: bit of a bigger agenda there that they'd like to 172 00:12:01,933 --> 00:12:07,653 Speaker 3: sort of get cash out out and just everything what 173 00:12:07,733 --> 00:12:12,053 Speaker 3: we do is just on our internet banking or on 174 00:12:12,093 --> 00:12:16,013 Speaker 3: our on our phone, and I think that can hurt people. 175 00:12:16,413 --> 00:12:19,933 Speaker 3: On that I appeal to certain sort of privacy and freedom. 176 00:12:20,653 --> 00:12:23,653 Speaker 3: My freedom instincts that I like cash. I hate the 177 00:12:23,693 --> 00:12:27,613 Speaker 3: idea that every single thing we buy can be seen 178 00:12:27,693 --> 00:12:31,253 Speaker 3: and monitored by the banks and government, well you know 179 00:12:31,293 --> 00:12:35,533 Speaker 3: when it's all electronic and so so that's the other 180 00:12:35,613 --> 00:12:38,453 Speaker 3: agenda going on, which I'm broadly supportive of, to try 181 00:12:38,493 --> 00:12:42,493 Speaker 3: to sort of still keep keep cash as being being 182 00:12:43,373 --> 00:12:43,853 Speaker 3: an option. 183 00:12:44,613 --> 00:12:46,933 Speaker 2: What's got me for the first time. I've always stood 184 00:12:46,973 --> 00:12:49,773 Speaker 2: up for the banks that they when they're accused of 185 00:12:49,893 --> 00:12:57,533 Speaker 2: making too much money and disservicing their clientele. I've always 186 00:12:57,533 --> 00:13:00,293 Speaker 2: stood up for them on the basis that it's there. 187 00:13:00,533 --> 00:13:03,333 Speaker 2: It's their business and that's what they're there for, et cetera. 188 00:13:03,613 --> 00:13:07,773 Speaker 2: But it's also to provide services at the same time, 189 00:13:09,373 --> 00:13:16,893 Speaker 2: and the idea of central bank digital currencies has gained momentum. Well, 190 00:13:16,893 --> 00:13:19,573 Speaker 2: I would have to say that this year, which isn't 191 00:13:19,653 --> 00:13:22,973 Speaker 2: very old yet, i've heard nothing about it. And that's 192 00:13:23,013 --> 00:13:25,173 Speaker 2: why I was surprised at the Reserve Bank of New 193 00:13:25,293 --> 00:13:30,173 Speaker 2: Zealand suggesting, because I know that they were looking and 194 00:13:31,013 --> 00:13:35,333 Speaker 2: probably still are looking at a central bank digital currency. 195 00:13:35,853 --> 00:13:38,373 Speaker 2: I have that on authority. The fact that they've now 196 00:13:38,573 --> 00:13:41,733 Speaker 2: would just be the result of the new governor. 197 00:13:42,013 --> 00:13:45,853 Speaker 3: Do you think, ah, it's been going on now, it's 198 00:13:45,893 --> 00:13:49,213 Speaker 3: been going on before that. That's quite an ongoing project 199 00:13:49,373 --> 00:13:51,853 Speaker 3: and central banks around the world have been looking at 200 00:13:51,893 --> 00:13:55,773 Speaker 3: it for quite a while. It's a hard topic, this 201 00:13:55,893 --> 00:13:58,533 Speaker 3: topic of money, so sort of what is that central 202 00:13:58,533 --> 00:14:02,813 Speaker 3: bank digital currency. The essentially allows you and me to 203 00:14:02,973 --> 00:14:08,893 Speaker 3: have an account at the reserve bank directly. And the 204 00:14:09,013 --> 00:14:11,133 Speaker 3: nice thing about that is we don't then have to 205 00:14:11,173 --> 00:14:13,813 Speaker 3: be concerned that, you know, Ancid or Westpact may get 206 00:14:13,813 --> 00:14:16,893 Speaker 3: into financial trouble. It's sort of safer holding it at 207 00:14:16,933 --> 00:14:21,213 Speaker 3: the reserve bank. And currently the big banks do have 208 00:14:22,093 --> 00:14:27,893 Speaker 3: essentially check accounts at the Reserve Bank, and but they're 209 00:14:27,893 --> 00:14:32,573 Speaker 3: the only ones allowed to sort of the big institutions. 210 00:14:32,693 --> 00:14:36,733 Speaker 3: Private individuals I can't directly hold a check account at 211 00:14:36,733 --> 00:14:39,573 Speaker 3: the RB and Z, so they're thinking of widening that 212 00:14:39,693 --> 00:14:47,333 Speaker 3: to everyone. And it's been seriously looked at around the world. 213 00:14:47,373 --> 00:14:50,813 Speaker 3: So no, it's not unique to this country at all. 214 00:14:51,173 --> 00:14:53,933 Speaker 3: And you know, there is a nice feature of it 215 00:14:54,133 --> 00:14:56,893 Speaker 3: where you know, it does take away a certain nervousness 216 00:14:56,933 --> 00:15:01,293 Speaker 3: of banking with a private bank because it could get 217 00:15:01,333 --> 00:15:04,173 Speaker 3: into trouble. But at the same time it is it 218 00:15:04,213 --> 00:15:06,653 Speaker 3: is sort of referred to as an electronic you know, 219 00:15:06,653 --> 00:15:09,813 Speaker 3: it's an entry. We have an account and it's an 220 00:15:09,853 --> 00:15:12,573 Speaker 3: electronic entry at the Reserve Bank. 221 00:15:13,573 --> 00:15:18,733 Speaker 2: But it also it also supplies authorities with information should 222 00:15:18,733 --> 00:15:19,253 Speaker 2: they want it. 223 00:15:20,613 --> 00:15:25,933 Speaker 3: Well, that's quite right, and it's where my instincts are 224 00:15:26,653 --> 00:15:31,773 Speaker 3: that when everything is digital and electronic, whether it's held 225 00:15:31,973 --> 00:15:36,493 Speaker 3: at the private bank or with the government. Although the 226 00:15:36,573 --> 00:15:43,413 Speaker 3: lawyers say there are certain privacy protections about that, my 227 00:15:43,533 --> 00:15:48,773 Speaker 3: instinct is not to buy it. Instinctively distrustful of the 228 00:15:48,813 --> 00:15:53,413 Speaker 3: government in terms of what it can access and currently 229 00:15:53,453 --> 00:15:57,333 Speaker 3: the idea when we're all forced onto electronic transaction, should 230 00:15:57,373 --> 00:16:00,733 Speaker 3: there be no cash that literally my bank, like yours, 231 00:16:00,733 --> 00:16:03,413 Speaker 3: Westpac knows that it's sort of past ten. I went 232 00:16:03,493 --> 00:16:06,133 Speaker 3: up to war Worths and bought toilet paper, which they 233 00:16:06,173 --> 00:16:10,453 Speaker 3: do know they can access in your account. It's an 234 00:16:10,493 --> 00:16:14,613 Speaker 3: incredible invasion of privacy that they can just read every 235 00:16:14,653 --> 00:16:19,133 Speaker 3: sort of transaction you're doing. And then to have the account, 236 00:16:19,173 --> 00:16:21,253 Speaker 3: as you say, held it that held essentially with the 237 00:16:21,293 --> 00:16:24,813 Speaker 3: government at the Central Bank. And of course governments love 238 00:16:24,853 --> 00:16:28,253 Speaker 3: it for taxes. They can just they love taxing everything 239 00:16:28,293 --> 00:16:34,093 Speaker 3: that moves, so you know, everything we do can be monitored. 240 00:16:34,093 --> 00:16:38,133 Speaker 3: So I am somewhat a fan of there's still being 241 00:16:38,373 --> 00:16:42,093 Speaker 3: cash and not buying into so much the hype that 242 00:16:42,293 --> 00:16:45,733 Speaker 3: you know, a wonderful future awaits when everything is electronic. 243 00:16:46,813 --> 00:16:49,453 Speaker 2: Let me quote you from a paragraph, small paragraph from 244 00:16:49,453 --> 00:16:52,333 Speaker 2: a book. But if one looks more deeply, it becomes 245 00:16:52,373 --> 00:16:55,413 Speaker 2: apparent that the virtues of paper currency open the door 246 00:16:55,453 --> 00:16:58,493 Speaker 2: to many vices. This is an argument that they're always 247 00:16:58,493 --> 00:17:02,973 Speaker 2: putting up large denomination notes, which constitute eighties and ninety 248 00:17:02,973 --> 00:17:07,053 Speaker 2: percent of the global hard currency supply, largely circulate in 249 00:17:07,093 --> 00:17:12,213 Speaker 2: the underground, underground economy, helping facilitate tax evation, crime and corruption, 250 00:17:12,933 --> 00:17:16,893 Speaker 2: and on a big scale. Tax evation at all levels 251 00:17:17,013 --> 00:17:19,293 Speaker 2: is more than three percent of GDP in the United 252 00:17:19,293 --> 00:17:23,293 Speaker 2: States and likely much higher in most European countries. No 253 00:17:23,333 --> 00:17:25,613 Speaker 2: one likes taxes, but if the government is able to 254 00:17:25,653 --> 00:17:29,173 Speaker 2: collect more revenue from tax evators, it will be in 255 00:17:29,213 --> 00:17:34,293 Speaker 2: a position to collect less taxes from everyone else. Can 256 00:17:34,333 --> 00:17:37,853 Speaker 2: I just insert here before you have a comment That 257 00:17:37,973 --> 00:17:40,453 Speaker 2: last sentence, it'll be in a position to collect less 258 00:17:40,453 --> 00:17:43,253 Speaker 2: taxes from everyone else, I say, is hogwash? 259 00:17:43,893 --> 00:17:46,853 Speaker 3: Yeah, hole, gosh, what a load of hogwash, that's right. 260 00:17:47,773 --> 00:17:50,453 Speaker 3: The idea that the government can collect a bit more, 261 00:17:50,493 --> 00:17:53,933 Speaker 3: which would only be a tiny bit more anyway from 262 00:17:54,013 --> 00:18:00,413 Speaker 3: those sources, and that would end up cutting all other 263 00:18:00,493 --> 00:18:06,333 Speaker 3: income taxes as a consequence. Is ridiculous. I don't buy 264 00:18:06,373 --> 00:18:10,133 Speaker 3: that either. We know governments nearly always on the grab 265 00:18:10,213 --> 00:18:14,693 Speaker 3: for more, more taxes, and again, you know, it's it's interesting, 266 00:18:15,053 --> 00:18:16,653 Speaker 3: you know, when you look at the long sweep of 267 00:18:16,813 --> 00:18:22,053 Speaker 3: history vilifying people that are acting sort of outside government 268 00:18:22,133 --> 00:18:26,493 Speaker 3: control and sort of these awful people that are trying 269 00:18:26,533 --> 00:18:31,013 Speaker 3: to do things which you know is not is what 270 00:18:31,053 --> 00:18:35,053 Speaker 3: they call avoiding taxes or avoiding scrutiny by the authorities. Well, 271 00:18:35,813 --> 00:18:38,293 Speaker 3: you know, there are good people. It's not just criminals. 272 00:18:38,293 --> 00:18:40,853 Speaker 3: There are good people around the world who are doing 273 00:18:40,933 --> 00:18:43,413 Speaker 3: very good things who you know, a lot, a lot 274 00:18:43,453 --> 00:18:47,413 Speaker 3: of the greatest folks in history. We're doing things which 275 00:18:47,493 --> 00:18:51,053 Speaker 3: were called illegal when they were doing them. As a 276 00:18:51,053 --> 00:18:54,533 Speaker 3: lot of like dissidents and countries like Iran now being arrested. 277 00:18:55,133 --> 00:18:58,493 Speaker 3: And you know, to sort of say we want everyone 278 00:18:58,733 --> 00:19:02,973 Speaker 3: under the eye and watch of a central government that 279 00:19:03,053 --> 00:19:06,053 Speaker 3: can monitor anything because they can collect a tiny bit 280 00:19:06,093 --> 00:19:09,773 Speaker 3: more in tax revenue. Find that quite a thin argument 281 00:19:09,813 --> 00:19:11,973 Speaker 3: when you weigh it up against the loss of the 282 00:19:12,053 --> 00:19:12,893 Speaker 3: loss of privacy. 283 00:19:13,253 --> 00:19:17,213 Speaker 2: Do you think the quote nothing to hide, nothing to fear. 284 00:19:17,733 --> 00:19:20,213 Speaker 2: Has had its day or is it still being utilized? 285 00:19:24,453 --> 00:19:28,893 Speaker 3: It's a battle. I don't think it has had its day, 286 00:19:30,653 --> 00:19:34,693 Speaker 3: and it's currently the subject of one of the great 287 00:19:34,693 --> 00:19:38,133 Speaker 3: battles of our times. And and that that battle has 288 00:19:38,173 --> 00:19:41,573 Speaker 3: gone on for seent troops. By the way, control by 289 00:19:41,653 --> 00:19:47,173 Speaker 3: government versus private individuals, it's one of the grand themes 290 00:19:47,173 --> 00:19:52,533 Speaker 3: of economics. You know, how big and intervention should governments be, 291 00:19:52,733 --> 00:19:56,293 Speaker 3: and how much power should be given to the individual 292 00:19:56,333 --> 00:20:00,213 Speaker 3: and freedom. It goes back to the to the beginning 293 00:20:00,213 --> 00:20:05,373 Speaker 3: of time, and so I don't think it's it's done 294 00:20:05,413 --> 00:20:09,373 Speaker 3: at day. The modern incarnation of it is that folks 295 00:20:09,613 --> 00:20:13,813 Speaker 3: like Peter Teel, who is that the Silicon Valley, PayPal chap, 296 00:20:13,853 --> 00:20:18,133 Speaker 3: who's got Who's given New Zealand citizenship mask? There there 297 00:20:18,413 --> 00:20:24,453 Speaker 3: that tech group wildly behind digital currencies, the bitcoin cryptocurrencies, 298 00:20:24,453 --> 00:20:28,173 Speaker 3: because they want to escape the clutters of government. They 299 00:20:28,173 --> 00:20:32,573 Speaker 3: don't want to use government currencies like the KeyWe dollar 300 00:20:33,173 --> 00:20:38,093 Speaker 3: to do their transactions, and private outfits can develop these 301 00:20:38,133 --> 00:20:42,653 Speaker 3: crypto these currencies, and it is they like it because 302 00:20:42,693 --> 00:20:44,933 Speaker 3: there is a sort of freedom aspect to it. It's 303 00:20:44,973 --> 00:20:50,973 Speaker 3: outside the the auspices of the government. So you know 304 00:20:51,013 --> 00:20:53,653 Speaker 3: that that's one of the great debates of our time, 305 00:20:53,773 --> 00:20:55,733 Speaker 3: how much we can we can sort of sort of 306 00:20:55,773 --> 00:20:59,133 Speaker 3: you know, conduct ourselves and our businesses where we're not 307 00:20:59,253 --> 00:21:00,333 Speaker 3: under that scrutiny. 308 00:21:01,013 --> 00:21:03,773 Speaker 2: Let me ask you another question. What is it that 309 00:21:04,013 --> 00:21:06,133 Speaker 2: decides the value of the New Zealand dollar. 310 00:21:09,373 --> 00:21:14,613 Speaker 3: Yes, so that's a question going into this very one 311 00:21:14,613 --> 00:21:19,253 Speaker 3: of the hardest topics in economics on the nature of 312 00:21:19,333 --> 00:21:22,853 Speaker 3: money and why money exists. So what gives it its 313 00:21:22,973 --> 00:21:27,973 Speaker 3: value is that it's called the medium of exchange. So 314 00:21:28,533 --> 00:21:31,373 Speaker 3: to buy and sell things in ancient times we did barter, 315 00:21:31,573 --> 00:21:33,693 Speaker 3: so I had e su had ducks, and we might 316 00:21:33,773 --> 00:21:36,853 Speaker 3: swap one one for the other. And then people worked 317 00:21:36,853 --> 00:21:40,613 Speaker 3: out that this great invented called money meant that we 318 00:21:40,653 --> 00:21:43,493 Speaker 3: could just use that as a medium of exchange and 319 00:21:43,613 --> 00:21:49,573 Speaker 3: pay in cash. And what gave what gives money its 320 00:21:49,693 --> 00:21:53,453 Speaker 3: value is that it's useful as a medium of exchange. 321 00:21:54,453 --> 00:21:57,613 Speaker 3: So it's day to day here to pay in cash 322 00:21:57,733 --> 00:22:02,413 Speaker 3: rather than bartering is much more convenient for us. And 323 00:22:02,813 --> 00:22:06,493 Speaker 3: the thing that guarantees the value then of say the 324 00:22:06,893 --> 00:22:10,613 Speaker 3: Key week dollar, which has no inherent value like a goal, 325 00:22:11,453 --> 00:22:16,173 Speaker 3: is that the government has promised that it won't devalue 326 00:22:17,133 --> 00:22:20,573 Speaker 3: that currency, that it won't suddenly cheat should you like, 327 00:22:20,773 --> 00:22:25,493 Speaker 3: and print more money, give it to its friends. And 328 00:22:25,533 --> 00:22:30,093 Speaker 3: we find that that dollar we're using drops some value. 329 00:22:31,093 --> 00:22:36,293 Speaker 3: And the government has guaranteed through legislation in this country, 330 00:22:36,293 --> 00:22:39,293 Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank Act, where it's the promise to keep 331 00:22:39,493 --> 00:22:42,933 Speaker 3: inflation stable that it hasn't been doing a great job of. 332 00:22:43,053 --> 00:22:45,693 Speaker 3: But that's essentially a promise that will do our best 333 00:22:46,293 --> 00:22:49,973 Speaker 3: not to undermine the value of those notes in their 334 00:22:50,093 --> 00:22:54,173 Speaker 3: use as a medium of exchange. So it's that legislated 335 00:22:54,773 --> 00:22:59,333 Speaker 3: guarantee which is protecting its value of this thing that 336 00:22:59,453 --> 00:23:02,173 Speaker 3: is actually useful to us to go about our business. 337 00:23:02,173 --> 00:23:03,973 Speaker 2: All right, when you touched on it, because you said 338 00:23:04,293 --> 00:23:06,213 Speaker 2: it's not done a very good job, and it hasn't 339 00:23:06,813 --> 00:23:09,333 Speaker 2: the value of the dollar against the British pounder, and 340 00:23:09,613 --> 00:23:11,773 Speaker 2: I just don't get a big singles in a mess 341 00:23:13,053 --> 00:23:15,173 Speaker 2: forty four cents a bit up or a bit down 342 00:23:15,173 --> 00:23:18,973 Speaker 2: from that, depending on the on the day. And it 343 00:23:19,053 --> 00:23:23,613 Speaker 2: dropped very suddenly. So again, let me put the question 344 00:23:23,733 --> 00:23:27,613 Speaker 2: to you what caused that? How did it happen? And 345 00:23:27,693 --> 00:23:30,013 Speaker 2: then the follow up is going to be how do 346 00:23:30,093 --> 00:23:30,773 Speaker 2: we prevent it? 347 00:23:32,533 --> 00:23:37,813 Speaker 3: Well, the value of the currency, like pretty much everything 348 00:23:37,813 --> 00:23:41,453 Speaker 3: in this in the subject of economists, depends on the price. 349 00:23:41,493 --> 00:23:45,013 Speaker 3: It's a price exchange rate, and the price is determined 350 00:23:45,053 --> 00:23:49,533 Speaker 3: by sources of demand and supply. And when it comes 351 00:23:49,613 --> 00:23:51,973 Speaker 3: to like the key wee dollar, two of the biggest 352 00:23:53,093 --> 00:23:55,613 Speaker 3: sources of demand around the world for out dollar to 353 00:23:55,653 --> 00:24:01,173 Speaker 3: bio exports like our dairy products and for tourists are 354 00:24:01,213 --> 00:24:07,133 Speaker 3: coming here. And the other factor that can drive the 355 00:24:07,173 --> 00:24:09,813 Speaker 3: demand for out dollar is sent to wis foreign investors 356 00:24:09,853 --> 00:24:12,173 Speaker 3: want it. Want people want to be invested here and 357 00:24:12,173 --> 00:24:16,653 Speaker 3: are buying our dollar as as a you know, because 358 00:24:16,653 --> 00:24:19,733 Speaker 3: they think it will be a good yield for their investment. 359 00:24:20,293 --> 00:24:23,093 Speaker 3: So that's where the dumb demand comes from, and the 360 00:24:23,173 --> 00:24:26,853 Speaker 3: supply is from the office sort of factors. If you 361 00:24:27,013 --> 00:24:29,773 Speaker 3: like it, he we's wanting to buy imports, we have 362 00:24:29,853 --> 00:24:32,493 Speaker 3: to sell our dollars to buy imports, or keys wanting 363 00:24:32,533 --> 00:24:36,653 Speaker 3: to invest abroad. So when you see a collapse in 364 00:24:36,733 --> 00:24:40,853 Speaker 3: the dollar like ours, our exports are pretty strong, you know, 365 00:24:41,013 --> 00:24:45,573 Speaker 3: dairy and tourisms are being bouncing back, so that doesn't 366 00:24:45,573 --> 00:24:50,213 Speaker 3: seem a big problem on on that side, you know, 367 00:24:50,253 --> 00:24:53,373 Speaker 3: you think that it may may really strengthen the dollar 368 00:24:53,853 --> 00:24:56,373 Speaker 3: so it would indicate to me there's a weakness on 369 00:24:56,533 --> 00:25:00,173 Speaker 3: the investment side that we're not we're not seen as 370 00:25:00,293 --> 00:25:04,933 Speaker 3: such an attractive place to you know invest and to 371 00:25:05,013 --> 00:25:08,493 Speaker 3: hold key Wei dollars for that purpose, and that it's 372 00:25:08,533 --> 00:25:13,213 Speaker 3: probably related to a general you know, loss of confidence 373 00:25:13,333 --> 00:25:16,613 Speaker 3: in the country. Our economic growth slowed, they're not a 374 00:25:16,613 --> 00:25:21,053 Speaker 3: lot of happening investments to be made here. There are 375 00:25:21,053 --> 00:25:22,853 Speaker 3: a lot of places in the world you can do 376 00:25:22,893 --> 00:25:26,013 Speaker 3: a lot better with your money now than investing in 377 00:25:26,053 --> 00:25:29,893 Speaker 3: New Zealand. So that's probably it could probably be traced 378 00:25:29,933 --> 00:25:33,173 Speaker 3: back back to that generalized sort of loss of interest 379 00:25:33,213 --> 00:25:35,933 Speaker 3: in actually buying our dollar. Bye, investors. 380 00:25:37,733 --> 00:25:41,373 Speaker 2: I'm wondering how much racism has to do with it, 381 00:25:42,333 --> 00:25:49,013 Speaker 2: and I better explain. I'm thinking of the of the 382 00:25:49,373 --> 00:25:52,813 Speaker 2: I did a podcast on this. I'm thinking of the 383 00:25:53,853 --> 00:26:00,333 Speaker 2: company trans Tasman Resources or something similar t TR and 384 00:26:00,453 --> 00:26:04,253 Speaker 2: it's basically headed by a Kiwi the next pat but 385 00:26:04,333 --> 00:26:08,653 Speaker 2: he still lives here much of the time. And that 386 00:26:08,773 --> 00:26:11,693 Speaker 2: had to go before the appropriate committees. And this is 387 00:26:11,693 --> 00:26:14,773 Speaker 2: the fast track stuff. It was anything but fast track, 388 00:26:15,093 --> 00:26:18,093 Speaker 2: and it got stemied at this point anyway, it's stemied, 389 00:26:18,493 --> 00:26:21,773 Speaker 2: and it's all it's all on a well there's a 390 00:26:21,813 --> 00:26:23,973 Speaker 2: touch of racism in there, but let's say it's on 391 00:26:24,013 --> 00:26:28,813 Speaker 2: a woke basis. Is that it's been that's been battered away. 392 00:26:29,413 --> 00:26:32,253 Speaker 2: Is it not time that the government of the day 393 00:26:32,573 --> 00:26:33,733 Speaker 2: did something about that. 394 00:26:35,893 --> 00:26:40,533 Speaker 3: Well, my view is that there is a fundamental uncertainty 395 00:26:40,773 --> 00:26:43,533 Speaker 3: in this country now about the nature of property rights 396 00:26:44,253 --> 00:26:47,253 Speaker 3: and who owns what. That's my view, and that would 397 00:26:47,533 --> 00:26:51,493 Speaker 3: hugely brought me off wanting to invest in this country 398 00:26:51,533 --> 00:26:56,693 Speaker 3: because it's not completely nailed down. And I found it 399 00:26:56,773 --> 00:27:03,293 Speaker 3: extraordinary when Seymour was trying to introduce his Principles Bill 400 00:27:03,613 --> 00:27:08,893 Speaker 3: into Parliament, the legal profession came out and said he 401 00:27:08,973 --> 00:27:15,133 Speaker 3: can't do that, it's unconstitutional. And I looked into that issue, 402 00:27:15,173 --> 00:27:16,973 Speaker 3: did a bit of work on it. It turns out 403 00:27:17,093 --> 00:27:20,613 Speaker 3: that no one really knows what our constitution is, including 404 00:27:20,613 --> 00:27:24,253 Speaker 3: the legal profession. We don't have a single document like 405 00:27:24,293 --> 00:27:28,853 Speaker 3: the US Constitution, and then it's got formal amendments, and 406 00:27:29,013 --> 00:27:32,653 Speaker 3: the lawyers then start up on this incredibly confusing line 407 00:27:32,693 --> 00:27:34,933 Speaker 3: that oh, we sort of do but it's not located 408 00:27:34,933 --> 00:27:38,053 Speaker 3: in one document. It's in lots of documents, but we 409 00:27:38,093 --> 00:27:39,853 Speaker 3: can't really tell you what they are. And it's in 410 00:27:39,973 --> 00:27:42,973 Speaker 3: lots of legal decisions. So the upshot is they don't. 411 00:27:43,373 --> 00:27:46,173 Speaker 3: The law profession don't really know what our constitution is, 412 00:27:48,093 --> 00:27:52,413 Speaker 3: but yet they declared what Seymour was doing unconstitutional. To me, 413 00:27:53,413 --> 00:27:58,173 Speaker 3: I'm not so much a lawyer, more in economics. These 414 00:27:58,373 --> 00:28:01,293 Speaker 3: arguments just reflect to me that properly rights are not 415 00:28:01,333 --> 00:28:03,933 Speaker 3: well defined in the country. It's very hard to say 416 00:28:04,013 --> 00:28:06,573 Speaker 3: who owns what anymore, and it would certainly put me 417 00:28:06,613 --> 00:28:08,173 Speaker 3: off wanting to invest in New Zealand. 418 00:28:08,893 --> 00:28:13,293 Speaker 2: Well, you've got the change in ability of foreigners to 419 00:28:13,293 --> 00:28:16,093 Speaker 2: come into the country with larger amounts of money and 420 00:28:16,173 --> 00:28:19,813 Speaker 2: hang out buying twenty million dollar homes for instance. Are 421 00:28:19,853 --> 00:28:22,013 Speaker 2: they doing that? Do you think ignorantly? 422 00:28:23,653 --> 00:28:25,653 Speaker 3: I know a few of them, and the NATS have 423 00:28:25,773 --> 00:28:29,253 Speaker 3: sort of encouraged it. The ones I know are typically 424 00:28:30,173 --> 00:28:35,213 Speaker 3: children of rich people living abroad, Basically the children who 425 00:28:35,933 --> 00:28:39,853 Speaker 3: are not working and the family's given them a bit 426 00:28:39,893 --> 00:28:41,893 Speaker 3: of money to hang out in New Zealand or send 427 00:28:41,933 --> 00:28:45,253 Speaker 3: their children to school here. But typically they pretend to 428 00:28:45,253 --> 00:28:48,253 Speaker 3: be entrepreneurs, but they're not. They're often from quite a 429 00:28:48,333 --> 00:28:51,053 Speaker 3: rich family. So I think just the fact you're investing 430 00:28:51,853 --> 00:28:56,653 Speaker 3: bigger than a certain amount of money doesn't rarely associate 431 00:28:56,693 --> 00:28:59,893 Speaker 3: it self necessarily at all with bringing skills or knowledge 432 00:29:00,293 --> 00:29:06,173 Speaker 3: or technology or expertise to the country at all, So 433 00:29:07,493 --> 00:29:10,933 Speaker 3: I sort of know that that's agenda with this. We 434 00:29:11,053 --> 00:29:15,293 Speaker 3: have a paucity of investment. So the Initiative, who's their 435 00:29:15,413 --> 00:29:18,413 Speaker 3: chief who are their main advisors? Matt Burgess who used 436 00:29:18,453 --> 00:29:21,293 Speaker 3: to work at the Initiative as Chris Sucksin's chief policy advisor, 437 00:29:22,293 --> 00:29:24,813 Speaker 3: And the line is, we don't have enough investments, so 438 00:29:24,893 --> 00:29:29,453 Speaker 3: let's get these rich folks coming here. The NATSLAS tried 439 00:29:29,493 --> 00:29:34,333 Speaker 3: this with Peter Teel, and they don't like talking about 440 00:29:34,373 --> 00:29:36,693 Speaker 3: the Peter Peel case. As far as I can work out, 441 00:29:36,973 --> 00:29:40,813 Speaker 3: maybe he was sizing up New Zealand for some tech investments. 442 00:29:40,853 --> 00:29:43,613 Speaker 3: Then he tried to build his house in Wanaka and 443 00:29:43,733 --> 00:29:47,373 Speaker 3: spent about ten years arguing with the council about one 444 00:29:47,413 --> 00:29:50,533 Speaker 3: of the most eco friendly, beautiful houses that has ever 445 00:29:50,573 --> 00:29:52,693 Speaker 3: been built in the country. The council wouldn't let it. 446 00:29:52,813 --> 00:29:55,253 Speaker 3: I think it had grass on its roof and the 447 00:29:55,293 --> 00:29:57,693 Speaker 3: council wouldn't let it go. And I think he just thought, 448 00:29:57,813 --> 00:30:01,373 Speaker 3: I can't even build a little house in this country. 449 00:30:01,933 --> 00:30:04,653 Speaker 3: It's so impossible to do anything here. Screw New Zealand. 450 00:30:04,693 --> 00:30:06,373 Speaker 3: I'm not going to invest ten more bucks here. So 451 00:30:06,413 --> 00:30:11,573 Speaker 3: that was my impression of what happened with him. We 452 00:30:11,693 --> 00:30:14,973 Speaker 3: kind of scared him off and he actually cave. Where 453 00:30:14,973 --> 00:30:18,813 Speaker 3: I worked, the University of Wilton had a knowledge Way 454 00:30:18,853 --> 00:30:22,013 Speaker 3: Economy conference many years ago and he came to it. 455 00:30:22,173 --> 00:30:25,173 Speaker 3: Some very famous people came. It was done when Helen 456 00:30:25,213 --> 00:30:29,333 Speaker 3: Clark was PM, John Hood was Vice Chancellor, and it's 457 00:30:29,373 --> 00:30:32,133 Speaker 3: interesting he doesn't speak much about it, but he all 458 00:30:32,173 --> 00:30:35,493 Speaker 3: said way back then, twenty five years ago, what he 459 00:30:35,533 --> 00:30:38,933 Speaker 3: loved about New Zealand back then was he said this freedom. 460 00:30:39,493 --> 00:30:41,373 Speaker 3: And he said, you know, I've been to Queenstown. You 461 00:30:41,373 --> 00:30:44,373 Speaker 3: can go on the jet boat, you can hurt yourself, 462 00:30:44,453 --> 00:30:47,293 Speaker 3: but whatever, you know, there's a freedom to bungee jump 463 00:30:47,933 --> 00:30:51,013 Speaker 3: and the rules don't get in your way. And he said, 464 00:30:51,053 --> 00:30:54,253 Speaker 3: I love countries that don't have too many rules and 465 00:30:54,333 --> 00:30:57,173 Speaker 3: where the people are trusting. And I think those were 466 00:30:57,213 --> 00:31:01,093 Speaker 3: the two great qualities of this country that did make 467 00:31:01,133 --> 00:31:07,373 Speaker 3: it one successful and now they've largely gone. I think 468 00:31:08,133 --> 00:31:14,013 Speaker 3: the risk taking culture and that you might even yourself 469 00:31:14,053 --> 00:31:17,173 Speaker 3: doing a bungee jump, that's all gone. In health and safety, 470 00:31:17,453 --> 00:31:22,213 Speaker 3: we seem incredibly cautious about everything, especially since the pandemic. 471 00:31:22,693 --> 00:31:25,493 Speaker 3: There are tons of rules and regulations. So yes, I 472 00:31:25,613 --> 00:31:28,533 Speaker 3: think I think that's scared off a lot of people. 473 00:31:28,573 --> 00:31:31,893 Speaker 3: And I don't think these few children of rich folks 474 00:31:31,933 --> 00:31:33,733 Speaker 3: coming here is going to change much at all on 475 00:31:33,733 --> 00:31:34,173 Speaker 3: that front. 476 00:31:34,693 --> 00:31:39,853 Speaker 2: Well, if they are as you have described it, when 477 00:31:39,893 --> 00:31:41,773 Speaker 2: they've been here for a while, do you think they 478 00:31:41,853 --> 00:31:44,013 Speaker 2: will wake up to what you've suggested? 479 00:31:46,293 --> 00:31:49,413 Speaker 3: I know, yes, I know quite a lot of these fopes, 480 00:31:49,693 --> 00:31:54,253 Speaker 3: and the school's here, and many of them their children 481 00:31:54,493 --> 00:31:59,213 Speaker 3: have dual citizenship, and I think their plan is to 482 00:31:59,413 --> 00:32:03,093 Speaker 3: go to school here, not to university here or do tertiary, 483 00:32:03,813 --> 00:32:07,213 Speaker 3: and they're going to leave. They're highly mobile and they're 484 00:32:07,213 --> 00:32:10,853 Speaker 3: going to leave after their children have been at school here. 485 00:32:11,613 --> 00:32:14,813 Speaker 3: So I don't really take it seriously about that sort 486 00:32:14,853 --> 00:32:18,573 Speaker 3: of mythical in foreign investors, like a sugar daddy coming 487 00:32:18,573 --> 00:32:22,093 Speaker 3: to save us. I think to the extent we need, 488 00:32:22,573 --> 00:32:25,413 Speaker 3: you know, really significant amounts of investment, it should come 489 00:32:25,413 --> 00:32:28,853 Speaker 3: from our own savings. Essentially, what you're asking is the 490 00:32:29,373 --> 00:32:32,373 Speaker 3: NATS strategy is we don't have any savings, so let's 491 00:32:32,373 --> 00:32:34,693 Speaker 3: try to get the savings of some mythical rich person 492 00:32:34,733 --> 00:32:39,213 Speaker 3: living abroad. And my views. We need our own savings, 493 00:32:39,733 --> 00:32:43,853 Speaker 3: and that's why my viewers have been strongly supporting this 494 00:32:43,933 --> 00:32:48,613 Speaker 3: idea of an Australian style super scheme. Here where all 495 00:32:48,693 --> 00:32:52,173 Speaker 3: assies have their super savings accounts, the average balance of 496 00:32:52,213 --> 00:32:56,453 Speaker 3: nearly five hundred thousand, and here Key We Save Us 497 00:32:56,813 --> 00:32:59,853 Speaker 3: become shambalic. The average balance is only about it's ten 498 00:32:59,893 --> 00:33:02,653 Speaker 3: times less than Australia. The coret of the country aren't 499 00:33:02,653 --> 00:33:04,653 Speaker 3: in it. I know what's been going on with the 500 00:33:04,733 --> 00:33:09,013 Speaker 3: Nats with Key We Saver, and Willis doesn't understand the scheme. 501 00:33:09,453 --> 00:33:11,773 Speaker 3: It's beyond her how to reform it. She has no 502 00:33:11,853 --> 00:33:16,253 Speaker 3: plans to make it mandatory. But I think because of that, 503 00:33:16,253 --> 00:33:18,973 Speaker 3: that's a reason why I've largely lost faith in New Zealand. 504 00:33:19,053 --> 00:33:22,773 Speaker 3: Because the NATS have no plan around savings, don't want 505 00:33:22,773 --> 00:33:25,693 Speaker 3: to move to a keyting Australian style scheme. So all 506 00:33:25,693 --> 00:33:29,933 Speaker 3: the young are going to Australia starting jobs tomorrow on 507 00:33:30,093 --> 00:33:34,093 Speaker 3: double the salary. But also they're getting these twelve percent 508 00:33:34,133 --> 00:33:37,573 Speaker 3: contributions from their employer and just five or ten years 509 00:33:37,653 --> 00:33:40,333 Speaker 3: later they have one two hundred thousand in their super 510 00:33:40,733 --> 00:33:43,773 Speaker 3: account and here they'll be lucky to have twenty thousand, 511 00:33:44,013 --> 00:33:47,813 Speaker 3: So I think the extent we need more capital, more investment, 512 00:33:47,853 --> 00:33:50,293 Speaker 3: it should come from within. It should come from a 513 00:33:50,333 --> 00:33:54,653 Speaker 3: well designed savings plan like the Ossies had. But the 514 00:33:54,773 --> 00:33:57,533 Speaker 3: NAT strategy, which they haven't been that open of, is 515 00:33:57,613 --> 00:34:00,373 Speaker 3: just to rely on a rich sugar daddy to come 516 00:34:00,373 --> 00:34:03,413 Speaker 3: and bail us out. And my personal experience of these 517 00:34:03,493 --> 00:34:06,933 Speaker 3: rich sugar daddies, not that we want to invoke the 518 00:34:07,013 --> 00:34:10,893 Speaker 3: name of Epstein, I'm highly suspicious about most of them. 519 00:34:11,653 --> 00:34:14,533 Speaker 3: I've never seen any of these folks come with a 520 00:34:14,533 --> 00:34:18,493 Speaker 3: lot of money without wanting a lot in exchange, and 521 00:34:18,693 --> 00:34:22,613 Speaker 3: often I'm very suspicious about what they do want in exchange. 522 00:34:22,613 --> 00:34:25,613 Speaker 3: So I'm very wary of thinking that you'll save your 523 00:34:25,653 --> 00:34:29,853 Speaker 3: lives and some some rich, rich guy with a lot 524 00:34:29,893 --> 00:34:32,773 Speaker 3: of money saying he's going to bail me out. 525 00:34:33,213 --> 00:34:36,693 Speaker 2: I find that most intriguing. Now, all that I was 526 00:34:36,733 --> 00:34:40,613 Speaker 2: asking you over the last few minutes was really carving 527 00:34:40,653 --> 00:34:44,093 Speaker 2: out a line for me to get to this particular point, 528 00:34:44,093 --> 00:34:47,533 Speaker 2: which I've raised on a number of occasions. And I 529 00:34:47,573 --> 00:34:51,013 Speaker 2: think you're probably the best one to ask this of 530 00:34:51,613 --> 00:34:55,013 Speaker 2: because you put it all together. We've got a very low, 531 00:34:55,493 --> 00:34:58,853 Speaker 2: low value dollar. We don't have enough. We don't have 532 00:34:58,973 --> 00:35:03,733 Speaker 2: enough investment, we don't have the right people, et cetera. Yeah, 533 00:35:03,893 --> 00:35:07,453 Speaker 2: what's what's stopping and would it be a good idea? 534 00:35:07,973 --> 00:35:10,773 Speaker 2: So I'm reverse that would it be a good idea? 535 00:35:11,333 --> 00:35:14,853 Speaker 2: Or what's stopping the backing of the New Zealand dollar 536 00:35:15,213 --> 00:35:19,573 Speaker 2: With gold? We have considerable supplies of gold still in 537 00:35:19,573 --> 00:35:22,493 Speaker 2: the ground in this country and there's nothing stopping it 538 00:35:22,493 --> 00:35:26,853 Speaker 2: from being dug up unless it's one of the one 539 00:35:26,933 --> 00:35:31,653 Speaker 2: of the situations like I described before about about offshore mining. 540 00:35:32,173 --> 00:35:35,573 Speaker 2: Why can't we Why can't we do what the Americans 541 00:35:35,613 --> 00:35:37,893 Speaker 2: are very likely to do, and that is go back 542 00:35:37,933 --> 00:35:38,813 Speaker 2: on a gold standard. 543 00:35:40,613 --> 00:35:43,573 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there are two sort of issues there. Like 544 00:35:43,653 --> 00:35:45,693 Speaker 3: with the mining for gold here, you can you can 545 00:35:45,733 --> 00:35:49,613 Speaker 3: be a big miner in gold like Australia is and 546 00:35:49,733 --> 00:35:53,853 Speaker 3: have big companies doing that and to the extent it's 547 00:35:53,893 --> 00:35:59,093 Speaker 3: extremely valuable. And you know, the miners in Australia are 548 00:35:59,133 --> 00:36:02,253 Speaker 3: exporting a lot of precious metals and rare earths that 549 00:36:02,373 --> 00:36:06,053 Speaker 3: on its own can create like quite a strong demand 550 00:36:06,173 --> 00:36:08,773 Speaker 3: for the dollar, so that that on its own can 551 00:36:09,053 --> 00:36:13,213 Speaker 3: rescue the dollar to the extent you become very rich 552 00:36:13,253 --> 00:36:18,533 Speaker 3: in resources, certainly like Australia is our equivalent to gold 553 00:36:19,733 --> 00:36:23,453 Speaker 3: has traditionally been milk. I remember I remember going to 554 00:36:23,453 --> 00:36:26,133 Speaker 3: a speech by John Key once many years ago, and 555 00:36:26,173 --> 00:36:28,733 Speaker 3: he said he'd visited the Crown Prince in Saudi Arabia 556 00:36:28,773 --> 00:36:30,893 Speaker 3: and the Crown Prince said to him, ah, you know 557 00:36:30,973 --> 00:36:34,213 Speaker 3: you're a They call me an oil shake, which makes 558 00:36:34,213 --> 00:36:37,773 Speaker 3: you a milkshake, which is about you know, the not 559 00:36:37,853 --> 00:36:42,253 Speaker 3: a bad joke from Sir John. And so in a way, 560 00:36:42,813 --> 00:36:46,653 Speaker 3: milk has been our sort of gold or oil. But 561 00:36:46,733 --> 00:36:49,133 Speaker 3: as you say, you know the extent we produce a 562 00:36:49,173 --> 00:36:51,613 Speaker 3: lot more of those minerals, it could help the wealth 563 00:36:51,653 --> 00:36:55,853 Speaker 3: of the country and the demand for our currency. The 564 00:36:55,893 --> 00:37:00,213 Speaker 3: other issue is like sixth thing, the New Zealand dollar 565 00:37:01,093 --> 00:37:06,653 Speaker 3: and be having it backed by gold, saying yeah, one 566 00:37:06,693 --> 00:37:10,813 Speaker 3: New Zealand dollar will buy you nothing this yeah, well, 567 00:37:11,293 --> 00:37:15,613 Speaker 3: you know a certain weight of gold. And there's a long, 568 00:37:15,613 --> 00:37:21,573 Speaker 3: long history of the gold standard, and it's sets up 569 00:37:21,613 --> 00:37:24,253 Speaker 3: when countries were on that because each country is sort 570 00:37:24,253 --> 00:37:26,733 Speaker 3: of fixing against a weight of gold. It's called fixed 571 00:37:26,773 --> 00:37:32,653 Speaker 3: exchange rates, and they're backed by gold. And there was 572 00:37:32,693 --> 00:37:37,053 Speaker 3: a view that it was maybe one of the reasons 573 00:37:37,493 --> 00:37:42,613 Speaker 3: that provided a certain instability in the world, leading up 574 00:37:42,653 --> 00:37:47,493 Speaker 3: to the Great Depression that fixing the exchange rate, you know, 575 00:37:47,533 --> 00:37:52,533 Speaker 3: so it couldn't move at all against other currencies, was 576 00:37:52,973 --> 00:37:56,053 Speaker 3: not beneficial because it's better to just have a free 577 00:37:56,093 --> 00:37:59,253 Speaker 3: market in the currency. Like I mentioned before, demand and supply. 578 00:37:59,933 --> 00:38:03,213 Speaker 3: It's just where the market books it. But we had 579 00:38:03,213 --> 00:38:08,613 Speaker 3: a fixed exchange rate before Rob Muldoon was by it 580 00:38:08,653 --> 00:38:12,573 Speaker 3: out going, and then we floated our dollar in nineteen 581 00:38:12,613 --> 00:38:15,053 Speaker 3: eighty four and moved away from a fixed exchange trade. 582 00:38:15,053 --> 00:38:18,293 Speaker 3: It wasn't backed by gold, but it was fixed, and 583 00:38:18,333 --> 00:38:21,533 Speaker 3: gold is another way of sort of fixing fixing the rate, 584 00:38:22,533 --> 00:38:26,573 Speaker 3: and I think it's very unlikely we will go back 585 00:38:26,613 --> 00:38:30,453 Speaker 3: to that. One of the disadvantages of fixing your dollar 586 00:38:30,533 --> 00:38:34,613 Speaker 3: is should there be a shock like this country is 587 00:38:34,653 --> 00:38:39,093 Speaker 3: not sort of doing quite so well now, it does allow, 588 00:38:39,213 --> 00:38:41,653 Speaker 3: with free markets, the value of the dollar to drop, 589 00:38:42,213 --> 00:38:45,413 Speaker 3: and that can create buffers. So it's cheaper for tourists 590 00:38:45,493 --> 00:38:50,773 Speaker 3: now to come here and travel. It makes our export's cheaper. 591 00:38:51,213 --> 00:38:53,253 Speaker 3: So it's viewed that maybe it's good to have that 592 00:38:53,293 --> 00:38:57,493 Speaker 3: sort of that flexibility. So closing down the market for 593 00:38:57,533 --> 00:39:02,413 Speaker 3: an exchange for our dollar and fixing it, the general 594 00:39:02,493 --> 00:39:05,933 Speaker 3: view in economics is where it we're somewhat against those 595 00:39:06,173 --> 00:39:09,093 Speaker 3: kinds of moves because there's somewhat anti free. 596 00:39:09,093 --> 00:39:13,333 Speaker 2: I recall it in our last conversation you raised the 597 00:39:13,333 --> 00:39:18,613 Speaker 2: subject of meritocracy and it had disappeared pretty much, and 598 00:39:18,733 --> 00:39:23,133 Speaker 2: you were appealing for it, demanding that we should we 599 00:39:23,133 --> 00:39:26,053 Speaker 2: should reinvest in meritocracy. 600 00:39:26,533 --> 00:39:31,933 Speaker 3: Has it changed, No, No, it's probably got worse. I 601 00:39:31,973 --> 00:39:35,133 Speaker 3: don't regard New Zealand as a meritocracy. And it's not 602 00:39:35,253 --> 00:39:37,333 Speaker 3: my view because I meet a lot of the school 603 00:39:37,413 --> 00:39:43,493 Speaker 3: children who are applying for awards and scholarships and trying 604 00:39:43,533 --> 00:39:45,973 Speaker 3: to get overseas, and they asked me for sort of 605 00:39:45,973 --> 00:39:48,493 Speaker 3: references and I do some scholarship committees and things, and 606 00:39:48,533 --> 00:39:52,333 Speaker 3: the overwhelming view of them as they can't see a 607 00:39:53,413 --> 00:39:57,493 Speaker 3: future career in this country. And the impression I get 608 00:39:57,613 --> 00:40:01,173 Speaker 3: is a lot of it is related to meritocracy. I 609 00:40:01,213 --> 00:40:07,653 Speaker 3: think there's a stale inside group, very inbred group in Wellington, 610 00:40:08,653 --> 00:40:13,613 Speaker 3: but also in corporate New Zealand that has stymied, stolen 611 00:40:14,093 --> 00:40:18,893 Speaker 3: the future careers away from most of young New Zealand. 612 00:40:19,533 --> 00:40:21,533 Speaker 3: It's not a subject they really want to talk about 613 00:40:21,573 --> 00:40:26,973 Speaker 3: it much because a lot of these the mates culture 614 00:40:26,973 --> 00:40:30,133 Speaker 3: in our corporate boards a lot of them are accountants 615 00:40:30,173 --> 00:40:32,973 Speaker 3: and lawyers who know each other, who don't have a 616 00:40:32,973 --> 00:40:37,653 Speaker 3: clue about the company and how it works. And I 617 00:40:37,813 --> 00:40:41,613 Speaker 3: think that group are just clinging on to the good jobs. 618 00:40:42,413 --> 00:40:45,453 Speaker 3: And I see it in our students. They want to 619 00:40:45,533 --> 00:40:48,453 Speaker 3: use a top student. New Zealand has no shortage of 620 00:40:48,493 --> 00:40:53,213 Speaker 3: amazing school children doing outstandingly well as good as anywhere 621 00:40:53,213 --> 00:40:58,053 Speaker 3: in the world, and we're just achieving some fantastic results. 622 00:40:58,613 --> 00:41:00,733 Speaker 3: You know, they talk about the educationalism, but there's a 623 00:41:00,813 --> 00:41:04,133 Speaker 3: top few percent in that who're just doing amazing and 624 00:41:04,173 --> 00:41:07,053 Speaker 3: they can't see the future career paths here and the 625 00:41:07,173 --> 00:41:10,493 Speaker 3: job for going to people who know each other on 626 00:41:10,653 --> 00:41:14,293 Speaker 3: other grounds, it's not based on merit, and I think 627 00:41:14,373 --> 00:41:17,413 Speaker 3: that's the fundamental root of what's holding back the country. 628 00:41:17,773 --> 00:41:22,413 Speaker 2: Are those kids local kids or they imports? 629 00:41:25,373 --> 00:41:30,613 Speaker 3: Well, you know that distinction now is you know when 630 00:41:32,013 --> 00:41:35,333 Speaker 3: it's hard to draw because most are residents in New Zealand. 631 00:41:35,373 --> 00:41:39,333 Speaker 3: They may have been born overseas, but most of them 632 00:41:39,973 --> 00:41:45,533 Speaker 3: are residents here. And so it's not just that group. 633 00:41:45,653 --> 00:41:48,853 Speaker 3: I mean, my own children can't really see how they 634 00:41:48,853 --> 00:41:52,813 Speaker 3: can have a career in this country. So it's not 635 00:41:52,893 --> 00:41:57,573 Speaker 3: just applying to folks whose parents were born overseas. I mean, 636 00:41:57,613 --> 00:42:00,733 Speaker 3: I know the game with my own children in this country. 637 00:42:00,853 --> 00:42:03,213 Speaker 3: I know, I've been looking at it for ten years. 638 00:42:03,253 --> 00:42:06,573 Speaker 3: How the National Party works, how corporate New Zealand works. 639 00:42:07,453 --> 00:42:10,573 Speaker 3: I mean, the people who both Hipkins and Luxeon have 640 00:42:10,653 --> 00:42:15,013 Speaker 3: appointed around them, it makes me sick. It just makes 641 00:42:15,053 --> 00:42:19,773 Speaker 3: me sick. I mean it's a group of an inbred democracy. 642 00:42:21,613 --> 00:42:24,573 Speaker 3: Luxeon got back essentially a group of twenty or thirty 643 00:42:24,573 --> 00:42:27,373 Speaker 3: of John Key's mates put them in the top jobs. 644 00:42:28,453 --> 00:42:30,773 Speaker 3: I mean, it's just I find it unbearable. I mean, 645 00:42:31,013 --> 00:42:35,253 Speaker 3: you know, when I graduated from university here, I went 646 00:42:35,293 --> 00:42:37,973 Speaker 3: to Wellington, Graham Scott was Secretary of the Treasury. That's 647 00:42:38,013 --> 00:42:39,613 Speaker 3: when I was a kid. I was about twenty three 648 00:42:39,693 --> 00:42:43,453 Speaker 3: years old. Graham Scott's what in his eighties. Now something 649 00:42:43,693 --> 00:42:47,733 Speaker 3: willis put him in his chair of her Social Investment Agency. 650 00:42:48,173 --> 00:42:50,533 Speaker 3: That whole thing's been stuffed up. They put the police 651 00:42:50,613 --> 00:42:54,133 Speaker 3: chief and his CEO and he resigned. Most of the 652 00:42:54,173 --> 00:42:58,413 Speaker 3: appointments I've seen have gone to very well connected people, 653 00:42:59,333 --> 00:43:03,213 Speaker 3: and I think it's that the root of what's holding 654 00:43:03,293 --> 00:43:05,733 Speaker 3: back a lot, and it's why I've opted out of 655 00:43:05,973 --> 00:43:08,253 Speaker 3: most well. I don't want to have anything to do 656 00:43:08,613 --> 00:43:12,853 Speaker 3: with speaking to MPs anymore at all, because I know 657 00:43:12,933 --> 00:43:15,013 Speaker 3: they're not sincere about it. I know they have there 658 00:43:15,453 --> 00:43:19,253 Speaker 3: in a group of advisors who are their mates. 659 00:43:19,413 --> 00:43:24,813 Speaker 2: Well, I've got a singular question for you for a reason. 660 00:43:26,093 --> 00:43:28,133 Speaker 2: Would you include Shane Jones in that group? 661 00:43:31,213 --> 00:43:33,693 Speaker 3: Would I include him? What in a group that well, 662 00:43:34,693 --> 00:43:40,013 Speaker 3: to the extent I think on the topic of Jones, 663 00:43:41,093 --> 00:43:43,053 Speaker 3: he's a list MP. No, because he didn't get us. 664 00:43:43,133 --> 00:43:45,133 Speaker 3: He didn't win a seat, none of them, none of them, 665 00:43:45,373 --> 00:43:49,853 Speaker 3: None of them did. So on that note, I think 666 00:43:50,013 --> 00:43:53,733 Speaker 3: the list, this MMP list, I looked it up yesterday. 667 00:43:53,853 --> 00:43:56,333 Speaker 3: Half of all Labor MPs got in on the list. 668 00:43:57,773 --> 00:44:01,333 Speaker 3: So when you have such a huge proportion of parliament 669 00:44:02,133 --> 00:44:05,093 Speaker 3: who have never stood up in front of a real 670 00:44:05,213 --> 00:44:09,933 Speaker 3: audience and won them over and impressed them, but more 671 00:44:10,133 --> 00:44:14,453 Speaker 3: have the character that they've bummed around the party. Got 672 00:44:14,533 --> 00:44:18,093 Speaker 3: to know everyone worked for the party. I mean Nichola 673 00:44:18,133 --> 00:44:21,293 Speaker 3: Willis did this, worked for John Key's office, got to 674 00:44:21,373 --> 00:44:25,773 Speaker 3: know all the nats completely part of that group of chums. 675 00:44:26,813 --> 00:44:29,893 Speaker 3: And there's a whole group of MPs who just are 676 00:44:29,973 --> 00:44:32,173 Speaker 3: working to get to know people in the party and 677 00:44:32,293 --> 00:44:36,653 Speaker 3: then going onto the list and I think that's been 678 00:44:36,853 --> 00:44:43,013 Speaker 3: somewhat detrimental to the quality of our democracy and it 679 00:44:43,253 --> 00:44:48,373 Speaker 3: has led to even the signals from the top are 680 00:44:49,093 --> 00:44:52,013 Speaker 3: this is a nation built on chumps. You have to 681 00:44:52,093 --> 00:44:55,533 Speaker 3: become friends with the Labor Party, friends with the Nats, 682 00:44:56,173 --> 00:44:58,413 Speaker 3: and then they'll brought you on the list and that's 683 00:44:58,453 --> 00:45:00,933 Speaker 3: how you get into Parliament, and you may have no 684 00:45:01,293 --> 00:45:06,653 Speaker 3: real great other qualities at all. So I'm not happy 685 00:45:06,693 --> 00:45:10,133 Speaker 3: in that sense that Jones has is a less MP 686 00:45:10,493 --> 00:45:12,613 Speaker 3: and when he tried to stand got rejected. 687 00:45:13,093 --> 00:45:19,293 Speaker 2: His popularity is rising. Yeah, I experienced it quite frequently, 688 00:45:19,853 --> 00:45:22,413 Speaker 2: and I have to say that I fall into I 689 00:45:22,493 --> 00:45:25,813 Speaker 2: fall into the support category. There's a couple of them. 690 00:45:25,893 --> 00:45:31,573 Speaker 2: There's a couple of them like that. The subject of 691 00:45:31,813 --> 00:45:37,773 Speaker 2: economics and history and how closely those two subjects related, 692 00:45:39,253 --> 00:45:39,493 Speaker 2: for you. 693 00:45:39,773 --> 00:45:44,013 Speaker 3: Well, inestricably, because a lot of the history of the 694 00:45:44,053 --> 00:45:51,693 Speaker 3: world is a history of economic development and technological change. 695 00:45:52,333 --> 00:45:58,613 Speaker 3: And you know, so when we study the subject, the 696 00:45:58,733 --> 00:46:03,853 Speaker 3: first big sort of huge technological shift to industrialization happened 697 00:46:03,893 --> 00:46:11,013 Speaker 3: during the Industrial Revolution in Brastol. So it's a topic 698 00:46:11,093 --> 00:46:16,053 Speaker 3: of great interest to economists and how to grow faster 699 00:46:16,213 --> 00:46:19,373 Speaker 3: and look even today, New Zealand doesn't really know how 700 00:46:19,453 --> 00:46:23,853 Speaker 3: can we increase the pace of technological change and economic growth? 701 00:46:24,813 --> 00:46:27,613 Speaker 3: And that's been one of the big puzzles for the 702 00:46:27,773 --> 00:46:31,093 Speaker 3: millennia in the world. How can since Roman times, how 703 00:46:31,133 --> 00:46:35,373 Speaker 3: can you increase the standard of living? And how can 704 00:46:35,413 --> 00:46:40,733 Speaker 3: the economy improve? So the two are sort of inextricably 705 00:46:40,773 --> 00:46:44,173 Speaker 3: linked in a way, the story of development of humankind 706 00:46:44,333 --> 00:46:49,453 Speaker 3: is inextricably linked to the development and wealth that we enjoy. 707 00:46:50,173 --> 00:46:52,933 Speaker 2: So as a follow up to that, is the world 708 00:46:53,213 --> 00:46:58,493 Speaker 2: in the world in any sort of shall we say 709 00:46:58,573 --> 00:47:00,173 Speaker 2: healthy condition at the moment? 710 00:47:02,493 --> 00:47:07,333 Speaker 3: I think it probably is. I think people are dwelling 711 00:47:07,413 --> 00:47:12,253 Speaker 3: too much on the sort of the shocks, you know, 712 00:47:12,413 --> 00:47:16,613 Speaker 3: the wars and things that are afflicting us. And I 713 00:47:16,733 --> 00:47:22,733 Speaker 3: think that the tech industry is obviously driving perhaps on 714 00:47:22,813 --> 00:47:25,213 Speaker 3: a scale of the industrial revolution in the sort of 715 00:47:25,493 --> 00:47:30,653 Speaker 3: in the eighteenth century, nineteenth century in Britain. It could 716 00:47:31,133 --> 00:47:36,253 Speaker 3: ultimately lead to a transformation in our living standards. And 717 00:47:36,453 --> 00:47:41,573 Speaker 3: I think that's quietly grinding on and what gives me 718 00:47:42,133 --> 00:47:44,493 Speaker 3: optimism about the world. I'm not convinced. I think New 719 00:47:44,613 --> 00:47:49,173 Speaker 3: Zealand is slipping relative to other countries, plummeting like a rock, 720 00:47:49,373 --> 00:47:53,733 Speaker 3: because what's happening is I think on the whole the 721 00:47:53,773 --> 00:48:00,413 Speaker 3: world is doing well in the sense that something unprecedented 722 00:48:00,453 --> 00:48:05,293 Speaker 3: has happened because of the tech revolution. The poorest kids 723 00:48:06,293 --> 00:48:10,013 Speaker 3: in Africa in parts of Asia when I grew up, 724 00:48:10,373 --> 00:48:13,213 Speaker 3: who just had no way of getting out of their situation, 725 00:48:14,533 --> 00:48:18,253 Speaker 3: no hope at all. The amazing thing now is even 726 00:48:18,373 --> 00:48:22,253 Speaker 3: with a sort of a nine dollar the cheapest mobile, 727 00:48:22,373 --> 00:48:26,893 Speaker 3: but something that's connected to the web, those children can 728 00:48:26,973 --> 00:48:31,573 Speaker 3: actually download the whole education resources of the world and 729 00:48:31,653 --> 00:48:35,013 Speaker 3: have them available to them. They don't need to go 730 00:48:35,093 --> 00:48:40,253 Speaker 3: to school necessarily. They can go through those you know, 731 00:48:40,333 --> 00:48:43,333 Speaker 3: those materials on the web themselves, should they be you know, 732 00:48:43,493 --> 00:48:47,413 Speaker 3: hard working, smart kid. And also on their phone, they 733 00:48:47,453 --> 00:48:50,933 Speaker 3: can start a business, they can receive payments on their phone, 734 00:48:51,533 --> 00:48:54,293 Speaker 3: they can set themselves up. And I think, I think 735 00:48:54,373 --> 00:48:56,973 Speaker 3: what the left, the sort of the anti market people 736 00:48:57,933 --> 00:49:02,293 Speaker 3: are not really being very straight about is I think 737 00:49:02,333 --> 00:49:07,133 Speaker 3: there is a wave of kind of pro market feeling, entrepreneurship, 738 00:49:07,613 --> 00:49:13,013 Speaker 3: the spirit of sort of starting a business for perhaps 739 00:49:13,133 --> 00:49:16,533 Speaker 3: several billion young children around the world who never had 740 00:49:16,573 --> 00:49:19,973 Speaker 3: access to any of that stuff before. And I think 741 00:49:20,013 --> 00:49:22,333 Speaker 3: you're going to see, you know, an explosion of that 742 00:49:22,493 --> 00:49:26,013 Speaker 3: sort of entrepreneurial behavior. It's now open to more people 743 00:49:26,053 --> 00:49:29,093 Speaker 3: in the world than ever before through the tech industry. 744 00:49:29,213 --> 00:49:31,573 Speaker 3: So I think I think that force will drive the 745 00:49:31,613 --> 00:49:33,853 Speaker 3: world economy higher over the next few decades. 746 00:49:34,613 --> 00:49:41,533 Speaker 2: Interesting, there's a headline the Clash of Civilizations restarts restarts history, 747 00:49:43,173 --> 00:49:46,293 Speaker 2: and this is a This is basically what it's founded on. 748 00:49:47,253 --> 00:49:51,133 Speaker 2: Thirty five years ago, American political scientist Francis Fukiyama made 749 00:49:51,173 --> 00:49:53,053 Speaker 2: a name for himself, and. 750 00:49:53,133 --> 00:49:54,413 Speaker 3: We all know what that was. 751 00:49:55,293 --> 00:49:58,253 Speaker 2: Expecting all human struggles to barrel toward a state of 752 00:49:58,373 --> 00:50:03,173 Speaker 2: imminence equilibrium. You mentioned that word earlier, and future peace. 753 00:50:03,253 --> 00:50:07,693 Speaker 2: Fukuyama stated out loud what many other late twentieth century 754 00:50:07,773 --> 00:50:13,413 Speaker 2: thinkers also believe. Humanity had reached the end of history. Now, 755 00:50:13,853 --> 00:50:17,133 Speaker 2: this is a this is a commentary piece that I've 756 00:50:17,173 --> 00:50:19,213 Speaker 2: just quoted from the first paragraph. I want to go 757 00:50:19,333 --> 00:50:24,213 Speaker 2: straight to the last one. Western globalists who refused to 758 00:50:24,293 --> 00:50:27,573 Speaker 2: learn the basics won't last long. From the Arctic to 759 00:50:27,693 --> 00:50:31,053 Speaker 2: the Antarctic, battle lines are being drawn and redrawn everywhere. 760 00:50:31,613 --> 00:50:34,573 Speaker 2: The past informs the present, the present informs the future. 761 00:50:35,133 --> 00:50:39,413 Speaker 2: The rest of history is just now beginning. So it's 762 00:50:39,453 --> 00:50:43,053 Speaker 2: a take on it's a take on Fukuyama to begin with, 763 00:50:43,493 --> 00:50:47,733 Speaker 2: and an attempt to show and prove that he was 764 00:50:47,893 --> 00:50:52,413 Speaker 2: totally wrong and the rest of history is just now beginning. 765 00:50:52,453 --> 00:50:53,933 Speaker 2: Does that ring any bells for you? 766 00:50:56,213 --> 00:50:58,693 Speaker 3: Yes, well, you know we're all aware of that. You 767 00:50:58,773 --> 00:51:04,173 Speaker 3: know that famous Fukiyama line that I understood, we'd all 768 00:51:04,293 --> 00:51:12,853 Speaker 3: become these versions of European or American style democracies, and 769 00:51:12,893 --> 00:51:14,653 Speaker 3: the whole world would just move that and then we'd 770 00:51:14,693 --> 00:51:18,933 Speaker 3: all just gradually become better off with economic growth, and 771 00:51:19,173 --> 00:51:23,173 Speaker 3: that's all there was to talk about. I think the 772 00:51:23,253 --> 00:51:27,973 Speaker 3: one thing that has surprised us all since he wrote that, 773 00:51:28,413 --> 00:51:31,493 Speaker 3: which relates to the problems in this country, is that 774 00:51:31,933 --> 00:51:37,173 Speaker 3: we never expected that the democracies that he's referring to, 775 00:51:38,453 --> 00:51:43,373 Speaker 3: our democratically elected leaders would be so disappointing in so 776 00:51:43,573 --> 00:51:50,213 Speaker 3: many many of many Western countries. And what's wrong footed 777 00:51:50,333 --> 00:51:53,493 Speaker 3: us is that a lot of more authoritarian countries, take 778 00:51:53,573 --> 00:52:00,253 Speaker 3: Singapore for example, have boomed and Singapore incomes now at 779 00:52:00,293 --> 00:52:04,933 Speaker 3: two three times higher than New Zealand. So a lot 780 00:52:04,973 --> 00:52:09,213 Speaker 3: of those countries have surged ahead of US economic and 781 00:52:09,333 --> 00:52:13,093 Speaker 3: I think Fukiyama didn't know about that or see that 782 00:52:13,293 --> 00:52:16,213 Speaker 3: at the time, and I think the fact, not to mention, 783 00:52:16,453 --> 00:52:21,893 Speaker 3: China have done economically so brilliantly, that's leading to a 784 00:52:22,053 --> 00:52:25,813 Speaker 3: questioning of this sort of Fukiyama idea that the whole 785 00:52:25,853 --> 00:52:30,573 Speaker 3: world would just be some big liberal democracy. There seems 786 00:52:30,653 --> 00:52:33,853 Speaker 3: to be problems in our democracies and they haven't been 787 00:52:33,893 --> 00:52:36,613 Speaker 3: addressed or reformed. And I think we all feel that 788 00:52:37,533 --> 00:52:41,693 Speaker 3: in New Zealand that many of our politicians are failing us. 789 00:52:42,413 --> 00:52:45,733 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't meet MPs at all now because 790 00:52:45,973 --> 00:52:48,893 Speaker 3: it's just a complete waste of time. Most of them 791 00:52:48,973 --> 00:52:53,133 Speaker 3: have no interest in even the subject of discussion. They 792 00:52:53,253 --> 00:52:55,253 Speaker 3: just have something else on their mind. They're just meeting 793 00:52:55,373 --> 00:52:57,973 Speaker 3: because Luxe and Is say given them a KPI that 794 00:52:58,053 --> 00:53:01,133 Speaker 3: they have to meet three people every week, and they're 795 00:53:01,213 --> 00:53:04,093 Speaker 3: just checking that off. So there's some sort of failure 796 00:53:05,173 --> 00:53:08,333 Speaker 3: in our democracies. And I think that it's still achievable 797 00:53:08,973 --> 00:53:14,413 Speaker 3: what he wrote about. But I think that the democracies 798 00:53:14,613 --> 00:53:20,373 Speaker 3: of the West need a real serious reform because they're 799 00:53:20,453 --> 00:53:23,893 Speaker 3: not working well. A friend of mine from South Korea 800 00:53:24,053 --> 00:53:31,213 Speaker 3: said yesterday, and a colleague of mine who was Australian 801 00:53:31,333 --> 00:53:35,373 Speaker 3: Chinese who's moved here. I didn't really know this, but 802 00:53:35,493 --> 00:53:38,533 Speaker 3: they said, although New Zealand is officially a democracy of 803 00:53:38,613 --> 00:53:41,613 Speaker 3: your government, we all know when you look at New Zealand, 804 00:53:41,813 --> 00:53:46,253 Speaker 3: the parties, our companies, so many are in bred. So 805 00:53:46,453 --> 00:53:51,653 Speaker 3: many it's jobs for mates. Accountants and lawyers, reign engineers 806 00:53:51,693 --> 00:53:53,893 Speaker 3: are kind of put at the bottom. Economists like me. 807 00:53:54,013 --> 00:53:57,573 Speaker 3: They'll call you an analyst, and then some manager who's 808 00:53:57,653 --> 00:54:03,773 Speaker 3: got some fluffy sort of background wants to be on 809 00:54:03,933 --> 00:54:07,293 Speaker 3: the big bucks and orders us around. There's a complete 810 00:54:07,373 --> 00:54:10,373 Speaker 3: failure in many of these institutions now in the West 811 00:54:10,413 --> 00:54:15,853 Speaker 3: and the South Korean and I was saying in many 812 00:54:15,893 --> 00:54:19,533 Speaker 3: ways in Singapore and in Asia, many of the organizations 813 00:54:19,653 --> 00:54:23,253 Speaker 3: are run in a much more meritocratic line, and so 814 00:54:23,453 --> 00:54:26,293 Speaker 3: the hard workers, the smart people are promoted, even though 815 00:54:26,333 --> 00:54:30,173 Speaker 3: at the top the government is quite autocratic. And I 816 00:54:30,333 --> 00:54:33,973 Speaker 3: think that that's quite shocked me. In this country, we 817 00:54:34,053 --> 00:54:37,173 Speaker 3: say we're a democracy, but it goes back to I 818 00:54:37,213 --> 00:54:40,293 Speaker 3: think I think democracies need to have that meritocracy in them, 819 00:54:40,973 --> 00:54:44,693 Speaker 3: and we've lost that. And now I think that sort 820 00:54:44,733 --> 00:54:47,413 Speaker 3: of wrong footed Fujiyama. He thought the West was just 821 00:54:47,533 --> 00:54:51,373 Speaker 3: something the whole world aspired to be like that. Actually, 822 00:54:51,453 --> 00:54:53,493 Speaker 3: our own institutions are doing quite poorly. 823 00:54:54,093 --> 00:54:55,213 Speaker 2: You're still enjoying teaching. 824 00:54:56,533 --> 00:55:01,253 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's the best thing being around young people. 825 00:55:02,493 --> 00:55:05,373 Speaker 3: It's the opposite of tarmocracy because the young people are 826 00:55:05,493 --> 00:55:09,653 Speaker 3: just trying to get ahead and maybe look abroad, and 827 00:55:09,973 --> 00:55:11,973 Speaker 3: they're the best people to be around in this country. 828 00:55:12,453 --> 00:55:15,453 Speaker 3: But when you look at the older group and the 829 00:55:15,493 --> 00:55:19,053 Speaker 3: a so called sort of in red establishment in Wellington, 830 00:55:19,893 --> 00:55:23,373 Speaker 3: it's just appalling. So the young people are what we've 831 00:55:23,413 --> 00:55:26,813 Speaker 3: got to build a country where they have hope that 832 00:55:26,893 --> 00:55:28,973 Speaker 3: they can do well here, which they don't at the moment. 833 00:55:29,853 --> 00:55:32,533 Speaker 2: Robert McCulloch, there's been a pleasure talking with you again 834 00:55:33,093 --> 00:55:35,413 Speaker 2: and I've been very interested in what you've had to say, 835 00:55:35,453 --> 00:55:37,813 Speaker 2: and I'm sure that a lot of other people will also, 836 00:55:38,333 --> 00:55:38,853 Speaker 2: so thank you. 837 00:55:39,373 --> 00:55:40,373 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. 838 00:55:55,893 --> 00:55:58,453 Speaker 2: I went to the mail room with Missus producer waiting 839 00:55:58,533 --> 00:56:02,773 Speaker 2: patient lye for podcasts number three hundred and nineteen Lighton. 840 00:56:02,813 --> 00:56:03,253 Speaker 3: How are you? 841 00:56:03,613 --> 00:56:04,853 Speaker 2: It is morning? I'm very wealthy. 842 00:56:05,013 --> 00:56:06,813 Speaker 4: It is morning, to be honest with you, I've just 843 00:56:06,853 --> 00:56:07,333 Speaker 4: woken up. 844 00:56:07,493 --> 00:56:10,653 Speaker 2: It's not a morning as I would like it to 845 00:56:10,733 --> 00:56:11,213 Speaker 2: be honest. 846 00:56:11,653 --> 00:56:13,293 Speaker 4: The sun's not shining, it's. 847 00:56:13,213 --> 00:56:16,253 Speaker 2: Not it's gone away, and I don't blame it for. 848 00:56:16,373 --> 00:56:16,893 Speaker 3: Me to start. 849 00:56:17,093 --> 00:56:18,333 Speaker 2: Why not, Jin says. 850 00:56:18,573 --> 00:56:22,413 Speaker 4: In a recent interview, Nick Smith gave three reasons why 851 00:56:22,493 --> 00:56:25,973 Speaker 4: Luxeon is doing badly in the polls. Firstly, it's impossible 852 00:56:26,053 --> 00:56:29,373 Speaker 4: to run a government when the last damn government has 853 00:56:29,693 --> 00:56:32,773 Speaker 4: pre spent all the money. Secondly, it's a bad time 854 00:56:32,893 --> 00:56:37,293 Speaker 4: internationally to be a government. Thirdly, the mainstream media is 855 00:56:37,413 --> 00:56:41,933 Speaker 4: clickbaiting an already polarized society. It might pay to remember 856 00:56:41,973 --> 00:56:45,213 Speaker 4: that Chris Luxon wasn't voted in for his charisma. He 857 00:56:45,373 --> 00:56:49,093 Speaker 4: was voted in for his management competence. And if we 858 00:56:49,253 --> 00:56:52,293 Speaker 4: New Zealanders are even thinking of voting based on charisma, 859 00:56:52,493 --> 00:56:54,813 Speaker 4: it might pay to remember that the last time we 860 00:56:54,973 --> 00:56:58,813 Speaker 4: did that, we got just In Ardurn, the kind queen 861 00:56:59,013 --> 00:57:03,613 Speaker 4: of economic incompetence. And this brings us to Trump. A 862 00:57:03,653 --> 00:57:07,053 Speaker 4: lot of people dislike his personality, yet more than fifty 863 00:57:07,093 --> 00:57:10,573 Speaker 4: percent of Americans still voted for him because he's proven 864 00:57:10,653 --> 00:57:14,013 Speaker 4: to be a good manager. As George Friedman said, it's 865 00:57:14,253 --> 00:57:17,053 Speaker 4: easy to dismiss Trump as a moron, but fifty percent 866 00:57:17,133 --> 00:57:20,053 Speaker 4: of voters cannot be morons. And there's a little bit 867 00:57:20,093 --> 00:57:23,653 Speaker 4: more Jin, thank you. But we'll finish up with if 868 00:57:23,733 --> 00:57:26,293 Speaker 4: more than fifty percent of us vote for National New 869 00:57:26,373 --> 00:57:29,893 Speaker 4: Zealand First and Act. Remember, fifty percent of us cannot 870 00:57:30,093 --> 00:57:31,373 Speaker 4: possibly be morons. 871 00:57:32,053 --> 00:57:35,453 Speaker 2: I'm tempted to question that, but nevertheless, I mean it's 872 00:57:35,493 --> 00:57:38,933 Speaker 2: been shown in the past to be possible. Just look 873 00:57:38,933 --> 00:57:45,653 Speaker 2: at MMP. Anyway, thank you, Jim. The following is interesting. 874 00:57:46,133 --> 00:57:48,173 Speaker 2: I thought you might be interested in the emails that 875 00:57:48,253 --> 00:57:51,533 Speaker 2: I sent to party leaders after a National Party meeting 876 00:57:51,813 --> 00:57:55,373 Speaker 2: last week in Oriwa, and then says a brilliant interview 877 00:57:55,493 --> 00:57:57,733 Speaker 2: this week and I learned a lot about Iran. That 878 00:57:57,893 --> 00:58:01,253 Speaker 2: was with George Friedman, of course, and Leon continues by 879 00:58:01,533 --> 00:58:06,653 Speaker 2: including the letter that he's sent to the ministers Deer Ministers. 880 00:58:07,293 --> 00:58:09,333 Speaker 2: My wife and I were very pleased to attend the 881 00:58:09,413 --> 00:58:13,413 Speaker 2: quarterly meeting hosted by Minister Mark Mitchell with guest speaker 882 00:58:14,093 --> 00:58:18,573 Speaker 2: Minister Simeon Brown. Simeon's talk was very encouraging as he 883 00:58:18,653 --> 00:58:22,133 Speaker 2: spoke about the progress on improved outcomes in the health 884 00:58:22,213 --> 00:58:26,693 Speaker 2: sector figures not published in the public arena. I spoke 885 00:58:26,773 --> 00:58:29,373 Speaker 2: of issues close to my heart and would like to 886 00:58:29,453 --> 00:58:32,333 Speaker 2: record them as set out below. Remember this is the 887 00:58:32,453 --> 00:58:36,533 Speaker 2: letter that he's written to the National Party. I listened 888 00:58:36,573 --> 00:58:39,813 Speaker 2: to a recent interview with Shane Jones, and he made 889 00:58:39,853 --> 00:58:44,533 Speaker 2: it very clear of his views of the climate change saga. 890 00:58:45,013 --> 00:58:47,253 Speaker 2: I urged the government to follow the lead of the 891 00:58:47,373 --> 00:58:50,333 Speaker 2: USA and other major countries who have withdrawn from the 892 00:58:50,373 --> 00:58:54,373 Speaker 2: Paris Accord. New Zealand should focus more on climate change 893 00:58:54,493 --> 00:58:59,093 Speaker 2: adaptation and put more resources into stopbanks and sea walls, etc. 894 00:58:59,813 --> 00:59:02,453 Speaker 2: Nothing is going to stop the ongoing storms of the 895 00:59:02,533 --> 00:59:06,133 Speaker 2: future around the world. Both China and India have not 896 00:59:06,253 --> 00:59:08,653 Speaker 2: signed up to the Paris Accord, and yet they create 897 00:59:08,973 --> 00:59:14,053 Speaker 2: a high proportion of pollutants, whereas New Zealand provides only 898 00:59:15,173 --> 00:59:19,133 Speaker 2: zero zero point one four percent. Is that the best 899 00:59:19,133 --> 00:59:23,853 Speaker 2: we can do? With the northern hemisphere in turmoil at 900 00:59:23,893 --> 00:59:26,293 Speaker 2: a daily threat of an outbreak of a major war, 901 00:59:26,973 --> 00:59:30,213 Speaker 2: Your government should work toward becoming more independent as a 902 00:59:30,333 --> 00:59:34,853 Speaker 2: nation and urge the government to pursue oil, gas, gold 903 00:59:35,013 --> 00:59:39,213 Speaker 2: and mineral exploration. The review created could be utilized to 904 00:59:39,333 --> 00:59:43,133 Speaker 2: bolster the billions of dollars needed to bring the infrastructure 905 00:59:43,173 --> 00:59:46,253 Speaker 2: projects up to date. I was encouraged by the applause 906 00:59:46,293 --> 00:59:49,493 Speaker 2: I received and the positive response by both Mark and Simeon. 907 00:59:50,453 --> 00:59:54,693 Speaker 2: I believe if your government mandated my suggestions above, you 908 00:59:54,853 --> 01:00:00,693 Speaker 2: will sweep back into government in November, yours sincerely, well, 909 01:00:00,733 --> 01:00:04,733 Speaker 2: I find nothing to disagree with what Leon's written question is, 910 01:00:04,813 --> 01:00:06,453 Speaker 2: Will anybody take any notice of it? 911 01:00:07,293 --> 01:00:10,053 Speaker 4: Layton Brett says, the the human drama must play out 912 01:00:10,293 --> 01:00:13,333 Speaker 4: in all the turmoil throughout this period of human history. 913 01:00:13,853 --> 01:00:17,173 Speaker 4: Humanity is unable to fence it. Everything is in flux. 914 01:00:17,693 --> 01:00:20,733 Speaker 4: It's a period we must pass through, no matter our discomfort. 915 01:00:21,293 --> 01:00:23,853 Speaker 4: Much will be revealed in these times, and many people 916 01:00:23,933 --> 01:00:26,773 Speaker 4: will be forced to reveal who they are. Others will 917 01:00:26,813 --> 01:00:31,213 Speaker 4: find themselves having to reevaluate their thinking, truths and values. 918 01:00:31,813 --> 01:00:35,813 Speaker 4: The dysfunctional structures, organization and systems of humanity will be 919 01:00:36,213 --> 01:00:40,813 Speaker 4: tested and found wanting. It doesn't matter who gets closest 920 01:00:40,893 --> 01:00:44,573 Speaker 4: in their personal evaluation of events in Iran. Time will 921 01:00:44,613 --> 01:00:48,053 Speaker 4: reveal all. Iran is only one aspect of the much 922 01:00:48,173 --> 01:00:50,213 Speaker 4: larger picture, and no one knows how it's all going 923 01:00:50,253 --> 01:00:53,173 Speaker 4: to turn out for humanity till the end of the century. 924 01:00:54,093 --> 01:00:56,093 Speaker 4: And there's a little bit more breadth. Thank you, But 925 01:00:56,373 --> 01:00:59,453 Speaker 4: he ends up with George Friedman was a pleasure and 926 01:00:59,773 --> 01:01:03,853 Speaker 4: further food for thought. I appreciate his quiet demeanor and insight. 927 01:01:04,333 --> 01:01:06,653 Speaker 4: Have a wonderful day, and thank you for your efforts 928 01:01:06,733 --> 01:01:09,933 Speaker 4: to bring some enlightenment to man is facing us here 929 01:01:10,013 --> 01:01:10,533 Speaker 4: and abroad. 930 01:01:10,893 --> 01:01:12,893 Speaker 2: I think Bred's been very busy this week because I've 931 01:01:12,893 --> 01:01:17,613 Speaker 2: got a couple more from him. There is a lot 932 01:01:17,653 --> 01:01:20,893 Speaker 2: of focus on the National Party leader PM. You get 933 01:01:21,013 --> 01:01:23,733 Speaker 2: what you see, and you see what you get. No 934 01:01:23,893 --> 01:01:27,293 Speaker 2: surprise is there and well foreseeable. The PM national leader 935 01:01:27,373 --> 01:01:34,453 Speaker 2: himself is unimportant emphasized. The actual problem is deeply ingrained 936 01:01:34,533 --> 01:01:39,173 Speaker 2: in the National Party itself. Take ownership. It doesn't seem 937 01:01:39,213 --> 01:01:42,573 Speaker 2: to matter who's in government. They all have their respective turns. 938 01:01:43,173 --> 01:01:46,293 Speaker 2: None are willing to change the actual direction slash path 939 01:01:46,573 --> 01:01:49,653 Speaker 2: of the country and so the cycle continues. You know, 940 01:01:50,093 --> 01:01:53,053 Speaker 2: there is a great deal of insight in that. I mean, 941 01:01:53,093 --> 01:01:55,853 Speaker 2: it's not meaning to be insulting bread. It's not brilliant. 942 01:01:55,933 --> 01:01:57,693 Speaker 2: Doesn't take a genius to work it out, is what 943 01:01:57,733 --> 01:02:00,573 Speaker 2: I'm saying. But you've said it, and you've said it well. 944 01:02:01,693 --> 01:02:04,853 Speaker 4: Ladon James says, I've just watched an almost hour long 945 01:02:04,973 --> 01:02:09,933 Speaker 4: documentary by Pepi Escobar, who is a brazilianopolitical analyst, part 946 01:02:10,013 --> 01:02:14,493 Speaker 4: excellence and someone we have always listened to. He explains 947 01:02:14,533 --> 01:02:18,573 Speaker 4: the developments taking place mainly in Iran with transport corridors 948 01:02:18,693 --> 01:02:23,013 Speaker 4: and ports and terminals. It is fascinating and all part 949 01:02:23,053 --> 01:02:27,653 Speaker 4: of the Eurasian expansion with trade expansion literally between East 950 01:02:27,733 --> 01:02:32,333 Speaker 4: and West Shanghai to Saint Petersburg and North and South 951 01:02:32,973 --> 01:02:36,613 Speaker 4: India to Northern Russia and everywhere in between. And all 952 01:02:36,653 --> 01:02:39,533 Speaker 4: the US and their corrupt allies can do is threatened 953 01:02:39,573 --> 01:02:41,653 Speaker 4: to destroy it all on the end of a missile. 954 01:02:42,173 --> 01:02:45,213 Speaker 4: But never mind, these lunatic neo cons could well be 955 01:02:45,293 --> 01:02:47,893 Speaker 4: out of AMMO in ten days or so and then 956 01:02:47,933 --> 01:02:50,213 Speaker 4: the world can get on with living. There is so 957 01:02:50,373 --> 01:02:52,573 Speaker 4: much potential in the world, and we wish we could 958 01:02:52,613 --> 01:02:55,453 Speaker 4: be actively involved, but we need at least two or 959 01:02:55,493 --> 01:02:59,013 Speaker 4: three more lifetimes to achieve even part of that. This 960 01:02:59,293 --> 01:03:03,373 Speaker 4: documentary from pepi Escobar is uplifting, to say the least. 961 01:03:04,213 --> 01:03:06,493 Speaker 4: And I actually I goog you can just easily find 962 01:03:06,573 --> 01:03:09,253 Speaker 4: it on YouTube and I've watched a twenty minutes of 963 01:03:09,373 --> 01:03:11,653 Speaker 4: it and it is it's very interesting. 964 01:03:11,933 --> 01:03:12,573 Speaker 2: How do you spell it? 965 01:03:13,013 --> 01:03:18,253 Speaker 4: Pep escobar p e p e ees coo b R. 966 01:03:18,773 --> 01:03:19,093 Speaker 2: Thank you. 967 01:03:19,853 --> 01:03:21,213 Speaker 4: It's been around for a long time. 968 01:03:21,293 --> 01:03:26,333 Speaker 2: Oh he has now, Ian writes an excellent analysis by 969 01:03:26,413 --> 01:03:29,413 Speaker 2: George Friedman. I did note an interview I saw the 970 01:03:29,493 --> 01:03:33,333 Speaker 2: other day with the America's Chief Iran negotiator, where he 971 01:03:33,533 --> 01:03:38,653 Speaker 2: said that right at the beginning, the Chief Iranian negotiator 972 01:03:38,733 --> 01:03:42,853 Speaker 2: said two things, we have the inalienable right to have 973 01:03:43,053 --> 01:03:46,053 Speaker 2: nuclear weapons, and we have enough high grade plutonium to 974 01:03:46,093 --> 01:03:49,053 Speaker 2: make eleven nuclear bombs. And that was pretty much that. 975 01:03:49,933 --> 01:03:52,253 Speaker 2: I would also like to say how biased on this 976 01:03:52,413 --> 01:03:56,573 Speaker 2: event media is. Our state owned media is finding every 977 01:03:56,653 --> 01:03:58,573 Speaker 2: way they can to show America and Israel and a 978 01:03:58,613 --> 01:04:03,653 Speaker 2: bad light and overestimate a round's ability to strike back. Conversely, 979 01:04:03,893 --> 01:04:09,333 Speaker 2: outlets like Fox News is taking exactly the op It 980 01:04:09,493 --> 01:04:12,213 Speaker 2: just goes to show why we can't trust much of 981 01:04:12,293 --> 01:04:16,173 Speaker 2: our media nowadays. We often get an activism rather than 982 01:04:16,373 --> 01:04:20,733 Speaker 2: balanced reporting. Your excellent podcasts are a shining light in 983 01:04:20,813 --> 01:04:24,653 Speaker 2: this media environment. Him, I'm the good work Ian. Thank you. 984 01:04:26,173 --> 01:04:32,333 Speaker 2: What I've just read leads us into the next segment 985 01:04:32,413 --> 01:04:36,533 Speaker 2: of the podcast that I've alluded to already, and there's 986 01:04:36,573 --> 01:04:37,373 Speaker 2: lot more to be said. 987 01:04:38,533 --> 01:04:42,573 Speaker 4: Laden David alerts you to what he calls the most 988 01:04:42,653 --> 01:04:46,093 Speaker 4: insightful interview around at the moment, but the link doesn't 989 01:04:46,173 --> 01:04:51,253 Speaker 4: quite match up there. But his subject is Steve Whitcoff's 990 01:04:51,453 --> 01:04:54,893 Speaker 4: stunning revelations and negotiations with a ram. So if you 991 01:04:54,973 --> 01:04:58,413 Speaker 4: google that on YouTube, I'm sure you'd find it, he says. 992 01:04:58,973 --> 01:05:01,413 Speaker 4: After alluding you to that, he says, love what you do? 993 01:05:01,813 --> 01:05:03,733 Speaker 4: You said during the letters this week you were going 994 01:05:03,773 --> 01:05:06,053 Speaker 4: to catch up with someone in the States for coffee. 995 01:05:07,533 --> 01:05:09,453 Speaker 4: I will buy coffe if you're ever in Blenham. 996 01:05:10,213 --> 01:05:13,373 Speaker 2: My God's David. I think there's probably all chance of 997 01:05:13,453 --> 01:05:14,093 Speaker 2: being in Blenham. 998 01:05:16,133 --> 01:05:18,573 Speaker 4: Just about to say the same thing, I'm not sure 999 01:05:18,653 --> 01:05:21,653 Speaker 4: that coffee in the States is going to be any time. 1000 01:05:21,933 --> 01:05:26,693 Speaker 4: All right, thank you, thank you, lighton, and we shall 1001 01:05:26,733 --> 01:05:27,493 Speaker 4: see you next week. 1002 01:05:27,613 --> 01:05:44,453 Speaker 2: You will for run three hundred and twenty. Now, before 1003 01:05:44,533 --> 01:05:46,613 Speaker 2: we go, I want to introduce you to a man 1004 01:05:46,733 --> 01:05:50,933 Speaker 2: named Steve Whitcof. I alluded to him at the beginning 1005 01:05:50,973 --> 01:05:54,173 Speaker 2: of the podcast, and he came up again in the 1006 01:05:54,653 --> 01:05:57,613 Speaker 2: in the mail room, even mentioned by by name. I 1007 01:05:57,813 --> 01:06:00,573 Speaker 2: was introduced to him in a different sort of way. 1008 01:06:01,693 --> 01:06:05,733 Speaker 2: He was on the Mark Levin Show and delivered well 1009 01:06:05,893 --> 01:06:11,133 Speaker 2: thirty minutes of inside information if you like, and just 1010 01:06:11,613 --> 01:06:14,453 Speaker 2: riveting listening. But let me give you a background of 1011 01:06:14,693 --> 01:06:18,813 Speaker 2: who Steve Whitcoff is. And I take this from an 1012 01:06:18,853 --> 01:06:24,293 Speaker 2: outfit called lawfuel dot com and it's written by Ben Thompson, 1013 01:06:24,333 --> 01:06:28,853 Speaker 2: who was a Law Fuel contributing editor. The stunning Steve 1014 01:06:28,933 --> 01:06:33,173 Speaker 2: Whitcock career moves before Witcoff became a commanding presence in 1015 01:06:33,373 --> 01:06:37,653 Speaker 2: international real estate and an unlikely Middle East diplomat, he 1016 01:06:37,853 --> 01:06:40,813 Speaker 2: was doing what thousands of law graduates do, practicing law 1017 01:06:40,933 --> 01:06:44,853 Speaker 2: at a New York firm, navigating contracts and learning the 1018 01:06:45,093 --> 01:06:48,613 Speaker 2: intricate mechanics of deal making. Can I just throw in 1019 01:06:48,693 --> 01:06:51,213 Speaker 2: here that this is a very good example for young 1020 01:06:51,533 --> 01:06:55,253 Speaker 2: law students to listen to and come to grips with. 1021 01:06:55,493 --> 01:06:57,533 Speaker 2: Pass it on to them if you have one in 1022 01:06:57,653 --> 01:07:03,173 Speaker 2: your vicinity. But Whitcof, a graduate of Hofstra Law School, 1023 01:07:03,333 --> 01:07:07,293 Speaker 2: saw something others didn't. His years at the prominent Manhattan 1024 01:07:07,413 --> 01:07:11,373 Speaker 2: firm Drea Traub were not just a career. They were 1025 01:07:11,413 --> 01:07:15,533 Speaker 2: a master class in understanding the legal architecture that underpins 1026 01:07:15,693 --> 01:07:19,413 Speaker 2: billion dollar transactions. Working in the firm's real estate department 1027 01:07:19,493 --> 01:07:22,573 Speaker 2: during the nineteen eighties, Whitcof developed an intimate knowledge of 1028 01:07:22,653 --> 01:07:28,293 Speaker 2: New York's labyrinth or labyrinthine property laws, zoning regulations, and 1029 01:07:28,493 --> 01:07:32,173 Speaker 2: financing structures. When he left to Dreya and Traub in 1030 01:07:32,253 --> 01:07:37,013 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, he carried with him more than transactional experience. 1031 01:07:37,493 --> 01:07:42,293 Speaker 2: He brought a lawyer's mindset, analytical, detail obsessed and acutely 1032 01:07:42,373 --> 01:07:47,453 Speaker 2: aware of risk. That legal foundation would prove transformational, so 1033 01:07:48,733 --> 01:07:52,373 Speaker 2: we moved to today. Whitcoff's real estate portfolio spans over 1034 01:07:52,613 --> 01:07:56,053 Speaker 2: fifty one properties across New York, London, and Miami, with 1035 01:07:56,173 --> 01:08:00,013 Speaker 2: an estimated net worth of five hundred million dollars. His 1036 01:08:00,173 --> 01:08:03,413 Speaker 2: holdings represent some of the most strategic acquisitions in modern 1037 01:08:03,453 --> 01:08:07,573 Speaker 2: real estate, and include deals that required not just capital, 1038 01:08:07,893 --> 01:08:11,013 Speaker 2: but also so a high degree of sophisticated legal and 1039 01:08:11,213 --> 01:08:18,093 Speaker 2: regulatory navigation that would challenge even seasoned attorneys. Unlike many 1040 01:08:18,133 --> 01:08:22,933 Speaker 2: developers who rely heavily on outside council, Whitcoff's legal background 1041 01:08:23,053 --> 01:08:26,133 Speaker 2: gave him an insider's advantage when it came to his deals. 1042 01:08:26,573 --> 01:08:32,373 Speaker 2: He could personally dissect complex contracts, assess regulatory exposure, and 1043 01:08:32,853 --> 01:08:38,733 Speaker 2: structure financing arrangements across multiple jurisdictions. His ability to identify 1044 01:08:38,853 --> 01:08:44,293 Speaker 2: legal vulnerabilities and opportunities in potential acquisitions became a competitive 1045 01:08:44,413 --> 01:08:50,573 Speaker 2: edge that few rivals could match. But perhaps perhaps more importantly, 1046 01:08:50,853 --> 01:08:56,053 Speaker 2: his legal training shaped his negotiating philosophy. Whitcoff has described 1047 01:08:56,093 --> 01:09:01,573 Speaker 2: his approach to business negotiations as treating them as as 1048 01:09:01,693 --> 01:09:05,853 Speaker 2: opportunities to connect with people rather than as battles. It's 1049 01:09:05,893 --> 01:09:10,733 Speaker 2: a perspective that reflects the best instinct of sophisticated legal practice, 1050 01:09:11,253 --> 01:09:15,653 Speaker 2: understanding that sustainable deals are built on relationships and mutual benefit, 1051 01:09:16,373 --> 01:09:22,133 Speaker 2: not adversarial posturing. For lawyer's condition to view negotiations as 1052 01:09:22,253 --> 01:09:28,053 Speaker 2: zero sum complex Whitcof's career offers a different template, one 1053 01:09:28,133 --> 01:09:33,613 Speaker 2: where legal skills become tools for building trust and creating value. Now, 1054 01:09:33,653 --> 01:09:35,773 Speaker 2: there was a personal tragedy in his life which is 1055 01:09:35,853 --> 01:09:39,293 Speaker 2: mentioned here. In twenty eleveny son Andrew died from an overdose. 1056 01:09:39,893 --> 01:09:45,733 Speaker 2: It was a devastating loss that reshaped his perspective on success, legacy, 1057 01:09:46,133 --> 01:09:50,853 Speaker 2: and what truly matters. For years, Whitcock carried Andrew's star 1058 01:09:51,013 --> 01:09:54,413 Speaker 2: of David Pendant, a tangible connection to his late son 1059 01:09:54,573 --> 01:09:58,493 Speaker 2: and a reminder of life's fragility. That pendant would later 1060 01:09:58,693 --> 01:10:03,853 Speaker 2: take on diplomatic significance with the Trump orchestrated Middle East 1061 01:10:04,213 --> 01:10:08,773 Speaker 2: peace deal. Now, I don't want to run right through this, 1062 01:10:09,893 --> 01:10:12,933 Speaker 2: so let me cut to a little further on are 1063 01:10:12,973 --> 01:10:16,133 Speaker 2: recommended for reading, though in its entirety it's actually not 1064 01:10:16,213 --> 01:10:20,693 Speaker 2: that long. Whitcoff's trajectory offers an interesting case study for 1065 01:10:20,773 --> 01:10:25,573 Speaker 2: lawyers considering paths beyond traditional practice. His career demonstrates how 1066 01:10:25,733 --> 01:10:33,773 Speaker 2: core legal competencies such as analytical reasoning, negotiation expertise, contract structuring, 1067 01:10:33,893 --> 01:10:39,373 Speaker 2: and risk assessment can create extraordinary opportunities across diverse fields. 1068 01:10:40,053 --> 01:10:45,533 Speaker 2: These are all skills central to successful lawyering. His transition 1069 01:10:45,693 --> 01:10:48,533 Speaker 2: from law to real estate wasn't unusual for attorneys in 1070 01:10:48,613 --> 01:10:52,493 Speaker 2: the eighties and the nineties, but few leveraged their legal 1071 01:10:52,573 --> 01:10:56,493 Speaker 2: background as comprehensively. A few still went on to apply 1072 01:10:56,653 --> 01:10:59,933 Speaker 2: those same skills, and fewer still went on to apply 1073 01:11:00,053 --> 01:11:04,333 Speaker 2: those same skills to humanitarian diplomacy on the world stage. 1074 01:11:04,893 --> 01:11:07,933 Speaker 2: As you read further, you'll discover how he got in 1075 01:11:08,013 --> 01:11:11,653 Speaker 2: socially with the President Trump, and how he got the 1076 01:11:11,773 --> 01:11:16,013 Speaker 2: position that he found himself in in trying to sort 1077 01:11:16,053 --> 01:11:20,773 Speaker 2: out a deal with the Iranians before war broke out, 1078 01:11:21,333 --> 01:11:24,613 Speaker 2: and the last meeting he had with the Iranians along 1079 01:11:24,693 --> 01:11:26,613 Speaker 2: with Jared Kushner. By the way, in all of these, 1080 01:11:26,813 --> 01:11:29,453 Speaker 2: because he's had a few meetings throughout the Middle East, 1081 01:11:30,333 --> 01:11:33,693 Speaker 2: the last meeting was the one immediately prior to war 1082 01:11:33,773 --> 01:11:36,933 Speaker 2: being declared, I'll leave the rest with you. Steve Whitcoff 1083 01:11:37,413 --> 01:11:41,813 Speaker 2: wit koblef very easy to find. Well, I'll listen to 1084 01:11:41,893 --> 01:11:46,813 Speaker 2: the to the interview with Levin again I recommended. I'm 1085 01:11:46,933 --> 01:11:51,373 Speaker 2: just simply google Mark Levin and Steve Witcoff and you'll 1086 01:11:51,413 --> 01:11:53,933 Speaker 2: get it. So that'll take us out for podcasts number 1087 01:11:54,373 --> 01:11:57,773 Speaker 2: three hundred and nineteen. If you would like to correspond 1088 01:11:57,813 --> 01:12:00,293 Speaker 2: with us, of course, very easy, right to Leyton at 1089 01:12:00,333 --> 01:12:04,173 Speaker 2: newstalksb dot co dot nz or Carolyn at newstalksb dot 1090 01:12:04,253 --> 01:12:06,853 Speaker 2: co dot NZID as I haven't said in a while, 1091 01:12:07,013 --> 01:12:10,973 Speaker 2: send your complaints to her and your compliments if you 1092 01:12:11,053 --> 01:12:14,933 Speaker 2: don't mind. So we shall return again very soon with 1093 01:12:15,053 --> 01:12:17,853 Speaker 2: podcast number three hundred and twenty. Until then, as always, 1094 01:12:18,133 --> 01:12:21,253 Speaker 2: thank you for listening and we will talk soon. 1095 01:12:29,213 --> 01:12:32,213 Speaker 3: Thank you for more from News Talks ed B. 1096 01:12:32,493 --> 01:12:35,733 Speaker 1: Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows 1097 01:12:35,773 --> 01:12:39,093 Speaker 1: with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio