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Speaker 1: So big week. As I mentioned before, the news for

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Speaker 1: the government on the power front, they're reversing that oil

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Speaker 1: and gas band. They're also launching and have launched the

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Speaker 1: draft plan for geothermal ideas double our output for electricity

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Speaker 1: and heating by twenty forty. Shane Jones as the Minister

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Speaker 1: of Resources, of course, and is with us. Very good

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Speaker 1: morning to you, Hey, Morni Mike Tahara opened last year.

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Speaker 1: Of course, have we let and that's really all we've

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Speaker 1: got apart from the original one. Have we let geothermal

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Speaker 1: slip a little bit under the radar over the years.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's nigh on twenty percent of our electricity, but

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Speaker 2: we missed a trick, mate. And what I've tried to

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Speaker 2: do with the strategy, which is going to be completed

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Speaker 2: after September, is move away from these lanky, featherweight ambitions

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Speaker 2: which seems to afflict New Zealand industry and our development nowadays.

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Speaker 1: How big is the risk of the punt in going

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Speaker 1: to have a look for it?

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Speaker 2: Well, on the question of the deep seated supercritical energy,

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Speaker 2: you're right the sixty million we've allocated, it's never been

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Speaker 2: done anywhere else in the world. But the expert tell me.

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Speaker 2: If it can be done anywhere, it'll be in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: It's close to the magma, but it'll completely rewrite the

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Speaker 2: character in the mix of our energy in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not going to pretend that it's a quick fix.

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Speaker 2: I'd rather focus on energy reforms that's coming soon to

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Speaker 2: kick that goal.

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Speaker 1: Have we got the expertise in this country to do

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Speaker 1: ale this?

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Speaker 2: Mate? Twenty eight percent over the last four years of

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Speaker 2: all geothermal investment has happened globally here in New Zealand, Philippines, Indonesia,

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Speaker 2: a variety of other places. The conference that I'm at

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Speaker 2: here in topol Our, New Zealanders are selling those services.

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Speaker 2: They're more highly regarded over there, and then sadly they

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Speaker 2: are here. And that's a deeper problem with our New

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Speaker 2: Zealand culture.

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Speaker 1: Where does the ETS fit into.

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Speaker 2: All of this? Well? Obviously, ETS is an imposition on

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Speaker 2: all costs associated with electricity, and the extent to which

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Speaker 2: it remains will be dealt to no doubt through the

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Speaker 2: next election. There's no intention at this stage to exempt

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Speaker 2: energy from the ETS, but there are some emissions associated

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Speaker 2: with geothermal that have to pay an ETS tax.

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Speaker 1: Okay, is the government involved in this? I mean, are

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Speaker 1: you the oil and gas thing, the two hundred million

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Speaker 1: dollars that you can take a stake in with some

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Speaker 1: of the people trying to bring them back to the country.

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Speaker 1: Are we going to be involved in this as well?

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Speaker 2: Now you ask a deep question if you want if

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Speaker 2: not you personally, if you and I want an accelerated

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Speaker 2: transition to a higher threshold of wealth, do you want

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Speaker 2: the government to stand back and sort of barrack from

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Speaker 2: the sidelines, or do you want it to get down

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Speaker 2: and dirty take a risk. Some things won't work, some

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Speaker 2: things were like we're doing with the oil and gas,

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Speaker 2: like I've done with the deep seated geothermal energy. And

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Speaker 2: I'm a sort of politician at the government, but it

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Speaker 2: really wants on behalf of society to accelerate an industrial transition,

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Speaker 2: and it's going to help with the cost. Were you

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Speaker 2: going to end up with the industrialization? For example?

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Speaker 1: Are you hopeful, given next year's election year, that you

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Speaker 1: can put enough of this in place that won't be

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Speaker 1: flipped again?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think. I think where the flipping threat

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Speaker 2: lies is with the fossil fuels, which, as you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm an apostle of but I with geo thermal energy,

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Speaker 2: this widespread response. You know, the trick that we missed

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Speaker 2: is after Jacinda, that political fugitive from electoral justice, she

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Speaker 2: canceled the oil and gas industry. They should have immediately

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Speaker 2: invested in geothermal energy six seven years ago and then

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Speaker 2: we'd had the flow to cover off the shortage.

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Speaker 1: Now that's true. Do you think I was just thinking

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Speaker 1: before the news of all the things the last government,

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Speaker 1: did you, I think the oil and gas turning the

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Speaker 1: tap off, that announcement in Taranaki, that was probably the

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Speaker 1: most egregious of all the decisions. And if it isn't

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Speaker 1: it to be right up there, wuldn't it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean a lot of what I'm doing at

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Speaker 2: the moment as an active penance, I don't walk away

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Speaker 2: from the fact that I acquiesced but it as a

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Speaker 2: minority part. But I can think of no single decision

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Speaker 2: that has had a more destructive impact on energy policy

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Speaker 2: that means economic policy, that means the productivity of a

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Speaker 2: nation than just Sender canceling the oil and gas industry.

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Speaker 1: All right, nice to talk Jane Jones, who's the Minister

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Speaker 1: for Resources.

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Speaker 2: For more from the mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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