1 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:10,453 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Tame podcast 2 00:00:10,573 --> 00:00:11,693 Speaker 1: from News Talks AB. 3 00:00:35,093 --> 00:00:38,013 Speaker 2: Good morning, Welcome to the News Talk's v Jactae with 4 00:00:38,093 --> 00:00:41,693 Speaker 2: you through the midday. It is a remarkable story of 5 00:00:41,813 --> 00:00:47,293 Speaker 2: injustice and hopefully soon that will be flipped. Soon it'll 6 00:00:47,333 --> 00:00:50,213 Speaker 2: be a story of justice. In the UK, the Post 7 00:00:50,213 --> 00:00:54,133 Speaker 2: Office introduced a faulty accounting system, but blamed the system's 8 00:00:54,333 --> 00:00:58,573 Speaker 2: errors on subpostmasters right around the country. It resulted in 9 00:00:58,653 --> 00:01:03,933 Speaker 2: more than nine hundred subpostmasters being wrongly prosecuted for dishonesty offenses. 10 00:01:04,133 --> 00:01:07,213 Speaker 2: Some lost their jobs, their businesses and homes. Many were 11 00:01:07,293 --> 00:01:11,293 Speaker 2: left financially ruined. Others were convicted of crimes and sent 12 00:01:11,373 --> 00:01:16,173 Speaker 2: to prison, and some died while waiting for justice. Highlighted 13 00:01:16,213 --> 00:01:18,893 Speaker 2: in the TV drama mis Debates Versus the Post Office. 14 00:01:18,933 --> 00:01:22,853 Speaker 2: The fight for justice has been a long and arduous journey, 15 00:01:23,373 --> 00:01:27,933 Speaker 2: and the persecution of sub postmasters has been described as 16 00:01:27,973 --> 00:01:32,173 Speaker 2: Great Britain's worst ever miscarriage of justice. Of course, the 17 00:01:32,213 --> 00:01:34,813 Speaker 2: man leading the charge in the fight for justice his 18 00:01:34,973 --> 00:01:38,653 Speaker 2: former sub postmaster, Alan Bates, who this week gave a 19 00:01:38,733 --> 00:01:42,933 Speaker 2: strong witness statement at the public inquiry into the Horizon 20 00:01:43,053 --> 00:01:48,213 Speaker 2: It Post Office scandal. Alan is with us this morning. Calder, 21 00:01:48,253 --> 00:01:51,293 Speaker 2: good morning, Good morning. It is a great pleasure to 22 00:01:51,293 --> 00:01:54,213 Speaker 2: be speaking with you. We all feel like we sort 23 00:01:54,213 --> 00:01:57,413 Speaker 2: of know you already, which must be a bit peculiar 24 00:01:57,453 --> 00:02:00,213 Speaker 2: from your end. How is it talking to people on 25 00:02:00,253 --> 00:02:02,573 Speaker 2: the other side of the world about the post office scandal? 26 00:02:04,213 --> 00:02:04,653 Speaker 1: It's a bet. 27 00:02:04,973 --> 00:02:07,533 Speaker 3: I think you're probably more used to Jones. 28 00:02:09,173 --> 00:02:11,733 Speaker 2: Yes, that's that, that is true. You know, I was pitching. 29 00:02:12,253 --> 00:02:14,813 Speaker 2: I was pitching my wife on the on the drama 30 00:02:14,893 --> 00:02:16,813 Speaker 2: when it screened in New Zealand. She asked me what 31 00:02:16,893 --> 00:02:19,173 Speaker 2: it was about, and I said, oh, well, it's a 32 00:02:19,173 --> 00:02:23,333 Speaker 2: collection of sub postmasters and a dispute over accounting, which 33 00:02:23,573 --> 00:02:28,293 Speaker 2: which isn't necessarily the sexiest pitch, but uh, but clearly 34 00:02:28,333 --> 00:02:30,333 Speaker 2: something has connected. What what do you think it is. 35 00:02:30,413 --> 00:02:33,653 Speaker 2: Why do you think so many people have felt so 36 00:02:33,813 --> 00:02:35,893 Speaker 2: strongly about the post office scandal? 37 00:02:38,373 --> 00:02:42,573 Speaker 3: Well, certainly in this country that the sub postmaster and 38 00:02:42,653 --> 00:02:46,093 Speaker 3: the post office is very much at the heart of communities, 39 00:02:46,533 --> 00:02:51,053 Speaker 3: and and I think everyone sort of here seems to 40 00:02:51,133 --> 00:02:54,173 Speaker 3: know somebody who works in the post office, or or 41 00:02:54,173 --> 00:02:56,213 Speaker 3: they spend a lot of time talking to people in 42 00:02:56,293 --> 00:02:57,133 Speaker 3: post offices. 43 00:02:57,693 --> 00:02:59,733 Speaker 2: So I think it. 44 00:02:59,653 --> 00:03:04,693 Speaker 3: Does connect and it's but it has been amazing. I mean, uh, 45 00:03:05,613 --> 00:03:10,133 Speaker 3: the out the outpouring of you know, support from across 46 00:03:10,173 --> 00:03:15,053 Speaker 3: the nation has been absolutely wonderful and we may need 47 00:03:15,093 --> 00:03:16,933 Speaker 3: to engage it going forward. 48 00:03:17,733 --> 00:03:21,813 Speaker 2: In what way do you think, Well, my. 49 00:03:21,813 --> 00:03:25,293 Speaker 3: Big bug bear at the moment is concerned about some 50 00:03:25,373 --> 00:03:27,933 Speaker 3: of these people who have been involved over the years, 51 00:03:27,973 --> 00:03:30,253 Speaker 3: some of them, if you might call the baddies in 52 00:03:30,333 --> 00:03:32,493 Speaker 3: all of this, that they might be trying to get 53 00:03:32,493 --> 00:03:36,093 Speaker 3: away scott free at the end of the day, and 54 00:03:37,053 --> 00:03:40,373 Speaker 3: we're real concerns that they need to be held accountable 55 00:03:40,413 --> 00:03:43,413 Speaker 3: for their actions in all of this, and often that 56 00:03:44,093 --> 00:03:47,053 Speaker 3: fails to happen in so many of these big scandals 57 00:03:47,093 --> 00:03:50,333 Speaker 3: with big firms, and you know, people have been paid 58 00:03:50,453 --> 00:03:52,973 Speaker 3: fast amounts of money for doing these sorts of jobs. 59 00:03:54,253 --> 00:03:57,293 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're right. Often, often when there are these kinds 60 00:03:57,333 --> 00:04:03,013 Speaker 2: of situations, people do seem to escape personal accountability. So 61 00:04:03,373 --> 00:04:05,533 Speaker 2: talk to us about the inquiry because because it's we're 62 00:04:05,533 --> 00:04:07,813 Speaker 2: written terms of the league scenes at the moment. You've 63 00:04:07,853 --> 00:04:10,453 Speaker 2: been at the inquiry this week. I noted that you 64 00:04:10,493 --> 00:04:14,173 Speaker 2: were described in documents from the Post Office at the time, 65 00:04:15,133 --> 00:04:17,693 Speaker 2: at the time of your own situation, you were described 66 00:04:17,733 --> 00:04:21,853 Speaker 2: as being unmanageable and someone who quote struggled with accounting. 67 00:04:22,253 --> 00:04:24,533 Speaker 2: So how was it being back up on the stand 68 00:04:24,533 --> 00:04:25,773 Speaker 2: in the inquiry this week. 69 00:04:27,253 --> 00:04:29,413 Speaker 3: I can't believe people will call. 70 00:04:29,293 --> 00:04:35,333 Speaker 2: Me yeah, I can't, can't. This seems totally unbelievable. Ellen, 71 00:04:36,973 --> 00:04:37,613 Speaker 2: of course. 72 00:04:37,373 --> 00:04:43,493 Speaker 3: You know reasonable. No, my over half my disagree on that. 73 00:04:43,533 --> 00:04:48,133 Speaker 3: But the the I've never struggled really with the accounting. 74 00:04:48,213 --> 00:04:50,973 Speaker 3: I've been used to computer systems before i'd gone into 75 00:04:50,973 --> 00:04:56,373 Speaker 3: the post office, So when I came across the horizon system, 76 00:04:56,733 --> 00:04:59,613 Speaker 3: I could see it was lacking from the and the outset, 77 00:04:59,933 --> 00:05:03,333 Speaker 3: and once problem started a caring, it was pretty obvious 78 00:05:03,373 --> 00:05:04,813 Speaker 3: what was the root cause of it all? 79 00:05:06,053 --> 00:05:09,613 Speaker 2: You say, but one thing that struck me watching the drama, 80 00:05:09,653 --> 00:05:12,493 Speaker 2: And I'm not sure how true this is, but you 81 00:05:12,533 --> 00:05:16,333 Speaker 2: seem to have incredible clarity of mind to be so 82 00:05:16,413 --> 00:05:20,173 Speaker 2: confident in your own actions. You knew you hadn't done 83 00:05:20,173 --> 00:05:23,933 Speaker 2: something wrong, that you were prepared to lose teens of 84 00:05:23,973 --> 00:05:28,413 Speaker 2: thousands of pounds in refusing to sign the documents and 85 00:05:28,453 --> 00:05:32,773 Speaker 2: say something else. So how were you personally so sure 86 00:05:32,773 --> 00:05:33,453 Speaker 2: that you were right? 87 00:05:35,093 --> 00:05:39,013 Speaker 3: Well, as I say, I've worked with computer systems before 88 00:05:39,093 --> 00:05:41,173 Speaker 3: I had gone in and I could see there were 89 00:05:41,213 --> 00:05:42,653 Speaker 3: a huge amount of. 90 00:05:44,093 --> 00:05:46,053 Speaker 2: Problems with it, and. 91 00:05:46,053 --> 00:05:50,213 Speaker 3: Especially some of the with some of the stances that 92 00:05:50,333 --> 00:05:53,373 Speaker 3: Post Office were taking over it. One they would never 93 00:05:53,453 --> 00:05:56,413 Speaker 3: give me an assurance about how accurate the system was. 94 00:05:56,813 --> 00:05:59,573 Speaker 3: And two, this was a network system, but they kept 95 00:05:59,613 --> 00:06:02,493 Speaker 3: on swearing that no one else ever had access to 96 00:06:02,573 --> 00:06:05,933 Speaker 3: it to it. But as anyone knows anything about computing 97 00:06:06,093 --> 00:06:09,413 Speaker 3: a big network and big network system, if you've got 98 00:06:09,453 --> 00:06:12,933 Speaker 3: the right right access code, you didn't get to anywhere 99 00:06:12,933 --> 00:06:13,133 Speaker 3: in it. 100 00:06:13,453 --> 00:06:16,373 Speaker 2: Did you organize over the decision just to just to 101 00:06:16,733 --> 00:06:17,973 Speaker 2: effectively shut up shop? 102 00:06:20,253 --> 00:06:23,133 Speaker 3: Well, they just terminated me, giving me three months and 103 00:06:23,213 --> 00:06:25,933 Speaker 3: notice and walked off with the investments and sort of 104 00:06:25,933 --> 00:06:28,333 Speaker 3: saying go on, so as if you're not happy, it's 105 00:06:28,413 --> 00:06:29,173 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. 106 00:06:30,173 --> 00:06:33,853 Speaker 2: How optimistic were you that eventually it would be sorted? 107 00:06:35,013 --> 00:06:38,853 Speaker 3: But no idea at all. I mean, I just I 108 00:06:38,893 --> 00:06:43,293 Speaker 3: think probably it's fair to say I'm a bit stubborn, and. 109 00:06:45,733 --> 00:06:46,853 Speaker 2: No, I. 110 00:06:48,693 --> 00:06:53,293 Speaker 3: Mean I just dug my heels in on it, decided 111 00:06:53,373 --> 00:06:56,093 Speaker 3: our stance was right, and with my other house Suzanne, 112 00:06:56,173 --> 00:06:58,693 Speaker 3: you know, we just talked it over and we just 113 00:06:58,773 --> 00:07:02,213 Speaker 3: decided to stick with it. And then we started meeting 114 00:07:02,253 --> 00:07:04,573 Speaker 3: others over the years and then we found out we 115 00:07:04,573 --> 00:07:07,013 Speaker 3: weren't the only ones and they weren't the only ones, 116 00:07:07,093 --> 00:07:09,053 Speaker 3: and we sort of grew from there, but it did 117 00:07:09,093 --> 00:07:10,013 Speaker 3: take a long time. 118 00:07:10,853 --> 00:07:12,853 Speaker 2: So, as I mentioned, you were on the stand at 119 00:07:12,893 --> 00:07:15,453 Speaker 2: the Post Office inquiry this week. How was it for 120 00:07:15,533 --> 00:07:19,613 Speaker 2: you being back up in lights in that environment being 121 00:07:19,653 --> 00:07:20,613 Speaker 2: asked for evidence. 122 00:07:22,213 --> 00:07:24,573 Speaker 3: Well, it's a bit unusual. I mean, I suppose the 123 00:07:24,613 --> 00:07:26,693 Speaker 3: first of the trials we had, I was on at 124 00:07:26,773 --> 00:07:32,253 Speaker 3: day one on that as well. I mean it wasn't 125 00:07:32,293 --> 00:07:34,853 Speaker 3: so tough for me because, as I said, goodies and baddies. 126 00:07:34,893 --> 00:07:36,773 Speaker 3: I think I was on the side of the goodies, 127 00:07:36,853 --> 00:07:41,133 Speaker 3: so the barristers didn't really give me a hard time, 128 00:07:41,253 --> 00:07:46,053 Speaker 3: and I prepared a big witness stead beforehand. It's just 129 00:07:47,213 --> 00:07:49,493 Speaker 3: a long day, but that was about it. Trouble is, 130 00:07:49,573 --> 00:07:51,853 Speaker 3: I had to go to another event that night where 131 00:07:51,853 --> 00:07:54,253 Speaker 3: I had to do a big question and answer session 132 00:07:54,733 --> 00:07:58,013 Speaker 3: for ITV, which I'd promised to do, so it was 133 00:07:58,053 --> 00:07:59,173 Speaker 3: a very very long day. 134 00:08:00,333 --> 00:08:02,813 Speaker 2: What are you hoping that the inquiry is ultimately going 135 00:08:02,853 --> 00:08:07,413 Speaker 2: to achieve? Well, I think it'll get. 136 00:08:07,293 --> 00:08:09,773 Speaker 3: To the root cause of who was responsible along the 137 00:08:09,773 --> 00:08:12,893 Speaker 3: way where the failings were in there because at the 138 00:08:12,973 --> 00:08:16,293 Speaker 3: moment with a lot of the senior bosses starting to appear. 139 00:08:17,293 --> 00:08:21,053 Speaker 3: I we're starting to find that they're dropping each other 140 00:08:21,133 --> 00:08:24,133 Speaker 3: in it, which is great, and I think the truth 141 00:08:24,253 --> 00:08:26,853 Speaker 3: is now starting to come out about who was responsible 142 00:08:27,213 --> 00:08:31,533 Speaker 3: for taking the decisions to prosecute people and why they didn't, 143 00:08:31,853 --> 00:08:34,333 Speaker 3: you know, stop at a far early stage when they 144 00:08:34,453 --> 00:08:36,933 Speaker 3: knew that the system was so faulted. 145 00:08:37,373 --> 00:08:41,093 Speaker 2: Throughout this process. Has there been a moment over the years, 146 00:08:41,613 --> 00:08:44,213 Speaker 2: as you have battled and toiled away, as you've met 147 00:08:44,253 --> 00:08:47,973 Speaker 2: with other sub postmasters have been so poorly treated, has 148 00:08:48,013 --> 00:08:50,493 Speaker 2: there been any one moment where you thought, you know what, 149 00:08:51,693 --> 00:08:55,373 Speaker 2: the balance of power in the situation has finally flipped. 150 00:08:55,573 --> 00:08:57,373 Speaker 2: I think we are going to win this. 151 00:08:59,173 --> 00:09:02,733 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny. As you mentioned that, I've always said 152 00:09:02,973 --> 00:09:06,573 Speaker 3: that a lot of this, this whole event, it has 153 00:09:06,573 --> 00:09:10,493 Speaker 3: been about controlling the narrative. And that was something Post 154 00:09:10,533 --> 00:09:13,133 Speaker 3: Office managed to do with its power and its money 155 00:09:13,173 --> 00:09:15,613 Speaker 3: and all the rest of it for donkeys' years. And 156 00:09:15,693 --> 00:09:18,733 Speaker 3: it wasn't until we got them in the court, into 157 00:09:18,773 --> 00:09:22,213 Speaker 3: the High Court and we got the judgments, the outstanding 158 00:09:22,333 --> 00:09:28,093 Speaker 3: judgments from Judge Fraser in here, that the narrative changed 159 00:09:28,493 --> 00:09:32,893 Speaker 3: and they lost that they lost that losing their footing 160 00:09:32,933 --> 00:09:36,173 Speaker 3: in all of this, and we started to take over. 161 00:09:37,653 --> 00:09:45,133 Speaker 2: So where was your personal compensation claimant? Well, I mean. 162 00:09:46,893 --> 00:09:50,493 Speaker 3: My claim went in you know, it just it was 163 00:09:50,613 --> 00:09:53,093 Speaker 3: just one of many that went in there. And to 164 00:09:53,133 --> 00:09:55,293 Speaker 3: be quite honest, you know, they offered me about a 165 00:09:55,373 --> 00:10:00,253 Speaker 3: sixth of what my forensic accountants submitted and I'm still 166 00:10:00,293 --> 00:10:03,613 Speaker 3: really waiting for them to come through with a better offer. 167 00:10:04,933 --> 00:10:07,693 Speaker 3: But you know, so be it just in the queue 168 00:10:07,773 --> 00:10:08,733 Speaker 3: like the rest of the group. 169 00:10:08,853 --> 00:10:13,213 Speaker 2: And how long is the queue of subpostmasters waiting for compensation? 170 00:10:14,933 --> 00:10:17,773 Speaker 3: But I think now there's about three hundred. I was 171 00:10:17,893 --> 00:10:21,973 Speaker 3: in our group. We were the original group that brought 172 00:10:22,013 --> 00:10:25,533 Speaker 3: the legal action against Post Office. In the Group Litigation 173 00:10:25,733 --> 00:10:30,213 Speaker 3: Order Group, there's about three hundred who are still waiting 174 00:10:30,333 --> 00:10:33,053 Speaker 3: to receive their final redress. 175 00:10:32,653 --> 00:10:36,333 Speaker 2: In all of this. How has it been watching the 176 00:10:36,373 --> 00:10:39,533 Speaker 2: ITV series? I'm sure you've seen it and seen clips 177 00:10:39,533 --> 00:10:41,853 Speaker 2: from it a few few times. Now, how did you 178 00:10:41,853 --> 00:10:43,133 Speaker 2: feel about the series as a whole. 179 00:10:44,333 --> 00:10:48,213 Speaker 3: Well, a couple of moans. First off, I never Tobby 180 00:10:48,293 --> 00:10:51,173 Speaker 3: Jones used to turn up at Westminster in meetings in 181 00:10:51,213 --> 00:10:54,293 Speaker 3: a windsheter and a jumper sort of thing. I was 182 00:10:54,333 --> 00:11:01,773 Speaker 3: always there in the suits. But also we don't actually 183 00:11:01,813 --> 00:11:06,093 Speaker 3: live in that house the world that you see, Yeah, Valley, No, no, 184 00:11:06,213 --> 00:11:08,813 Speaker 3: I mean it was a wonderful ad for for come 185 00:11:08,853 --> 00:11:10,133 Speaker 3: to Wales for your holidays. 186 00:11:10,933 --> 00:11:13,973 Speaker 2: It was. It did look it looked absolutely gorgeous. I thought, well, 187 00:11:13,973 --> 00:11:16,253 Speaker 2: if there's you know, if there's anywhere that you're able 188 00:11:16,293 --> 00:11:19,493 Speaker 2: to go and let off some steam going for going 189 00:11:19,533 --> 00:11:22,973 Speaker 2: for a hike, and those incredible hills with those landscapes 190 00:11:23,053 --> 00:11:25,093 Speaker 2: must be you know, it must be a wonderful thing. 191 00:11:25,093 --> 00:11:27,013 Speaker 2: But that's stretching the truth a little bit. 192 00:11:28,693 --> 00:11:31,213 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, but it's where I used to try and 193 00:11:31,293 --> 00:11:33,733 Speaker 3: escape to as much as I can't it could, you know, 194 00:11:33,773 --> 00:11:35,933 Speaker 3: the amount of conversation so I used to have up 195 00:11:35,933 --> 00:11:38,653 Speaker 3: a mountain, you know, with the lawyers or things like this. 196 00:11:39,133 --> 00:11:42,253 Speaker 3: Whether even today, even this afternoon, I escape to the 197 00:11:42,373 --> 00:11:44,293 Speaker 3: hills for a bit and I just finished up having 198 00:11:44,453 --> 00:11:46,053 Speaker 3: spending most of my time on the phone. 199 00:11:46,373 --> 00:11:51,453 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you were talking about the individuals who you 200 00:11:51,573 --> 00:11:54,773 Speaker 2: still feel need to be held properly accountable for their 201 00:11:54,773 --> 00:11:56,653 Speaker 2: behavior on the post Office side of all of this. 202 00:11:57,173 --> 00:11:59,413 Speaker 2: I'm sure you asked us every day. But Paul of 203 00:11:59,453 --> 00:12:04,613 Speaker 2: Veynolds has now had her cbe formally revoked. Given she 204 00:12:04,693 --> 00:12:08,213 Speaker 2: no longer has an honor, will you accept an honor? 205 00:12:10,813 --> 00:12:14,133 Speaker 3: The most important thing in all of this is getting 206 00:12:14,173 --> 00:12:17,413 Speaker 3: the financial address for the victims in it. And I 207 00:12:17,453 --> 00:12:21,293 Speaker 3: mean that's what I want to see happened first. I mean, 208 00:12:21,333 --> 00:12:24,693 Speaker 3: after that's happened, if something get is offered, well we'll see. 209 00:12:25,013 --> 00:12:28,013 Speaker 3: But you know, it's let's get the money out to 210 00:12:28,093 --> 00:12:30,773 Speaker 3: the victims in this. They've been waiting far too long. 211 00:12:31,213 --> 00:12:34,693 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny too. I mean, obviously that the tables 212 00:12:34,693 --> 00:12:39,253 Speaker 2: have turned and this scandal has has you know, not 213 00:12:39,293 --> 00:12:43,853 Speaker 2: only cost subpostmasters their livelihoods, in several instances that cost 214 00:12:44,493 --> 00:12:48,293 Speaker 2: sub post masters their lives. Is there a risk though? 215 00:12:48,333 --> 00:12:50,613 Speaker 2: Do you think that that all of the all of 216 00:12:50,653 --> 00:12:53,573 Speaker 2: the hate and the and the anger goes goes too 217 00:12:53,653 --> 00:12:56,013 Speaker 2: far for people who were at the top of all 218 00:12:56,013 --> 00:12:57,853 Speaker 2: of this. Do do you worry about that? 219 00:12:59,333 --> 00:13:02,013 Speaker 3: Well? I mean this is something I'm quite keen on. 220 00:13:02,133 --> 00:13:06,053 Speaker 3: It's not just the Post Office personnel. I think a 221 00:13:06,093 --> 00:13:09,693 Speaker 3: lot of the civil service who are advising them need 222 00:13:09,773 --> 00:13:12,293 Speaker 3: looking at in all of this. A number of the 223 00:13:12,373 --> 00:13:15,133 Speaker 3: lawyers who have been involved in all of this recommending 224 00:13:15,173 --> 00:13:18,413 Speaker 3: prosecutions or taking them to they need looking at in this, 225 00:13:18,533 --> 00:13:22,573 Speaker 3: and so or even the MPs. They're not all to 226 00:13:22,653 --> 00:13:25,813 Speaker 3: blame as bad as c B. There's certain ones certainly 227 00:13:26,573 --> 00:13:29,293 Speaker 3: who need take it to task in it, but there 228 00:13:29,333 --> 00:13:33,173 Speaker 3: does need to be quite a sensible discussion about who 229 00:13:33,213 --> 00:13:37,173 Speaker 3: should be taken forward for a further accountability and all this. 230 00:13:37,533 --> 00:13:40,693 Speaker 3: And that's something I'm trying to raise in this country 231 00:13:40,693 --> 00:13:44,373 Speaker 3: at the moment, trying to get that debate going. 232 00:13:45,653 --> 00:13:48,733 Speaker 2: When will you race? Ellen? You know it don't seem 233 00:13:48,773 --> 00:13:52,373 Speaker 2: like the heads Yeah, when will When will you raise? When? 234 00:13:52,653 --> 00:13:55,493 Speaker 2: Give me give me a scenario whereby you will be 235 00:13:55,653 --> 00:13:59,333 Speaker 2: satisfied where you feel that justice will have been achieved. 236 00:14:00,693 --> 00:14:04,853 Speaker 3: I would certainly want our main group, the original GLO 237 00:14:05,253 --> 00:14:09,693 Speaker 3: five five five, have received their financial address in all 238 00:14:09,693 --> 00:14:12,893 Speaker 3: of this or bulk of that. I would certainly like 239 00:14:13,013 --> 00:14:19,693 Speaker 3: to see that proceedings where they were needed. I'm talking 240 00:14:19,733 --> 00:14:24,253 Speaker 3: of legal proceedings were underweg or being followed through in there, 241 00:14:24,933 --> 00:14:28,733 Speaker 3: and those who were those who were guilty were being 242 00:14:28,813 --> 00:14:31,053 Speaker 3: named and shamed. And I think, you know, once we 243 00:14:31,093 --> 00:14:33,813 Speaker 3: get to that point, it would be time for me 244 00:14:34,213 --> 00:14:38,493 Speaker 3: to perhaps sit down, put my feet up, think about 245 00:14:38,533 --> 00:14:40,933 Speaker 3: what I'm going to do less maybe just find a 246 00:14:40,933 --> 00:14:43,733 Speaker 3: little village somewhere and buy a nice little post office 247 00:14:43,813 --> 00:14:45,093 Speaker 3: and take it easy. 248 00:14:45,693 --> 00:14:49,213 Speaker 2: Would you run a post office again? Never, They wouldn't 249 00:14:49,213 --> 00:14:56,053 Speaker 2: have it. Well, after all, you're unmanageable, right, Yeah. 250 00:14:56,253 --> 00:14:59,333 Speaker 3: I keep wanting to sell it to someone like Amazon. 251 00:14:59,533 --> 00:15:00,413 Speaker 3: They don't like me. 252 00:15:00,573 --> 00:15:05,133 Speaker 2: Say yeah, it as a public art installation or something 253 00:15:05,213 --> 00:15:08,253 Speaker 2: like that. Finally, then, Ellen, it's been more than twenty 254 00:15:08,333 --> 00:15:12,533 Speaker 2: years since you were effectively turfed out. As I said, 255 00:15:12,733 --> 00:15:15,173 Speaker 2: it cost you thousands of pounds or tens of thousands 256 00:15:15,173 --> 00:15:18,133 Speaker 2: of pounds at the time. You have fought and fought 257 00:15:18,173 --> 00:15:20,533 Speaker 2: and fought and fought for all of those years. You're 258 00:15:20,533 --> 00:15:23,013 Speaker 2: at a point now where the High Court has ruled 259 00:15:23,013 --> 00:15:25,813 Speaker 2: in your favor. A public inquiry is very much in 260 00:15:25,853 --> 00:15:28,733 Speaker 2: your favor. The school of public opinion could not be 261 00:15:28,853 --> 00:15:32,293 Speaker 2: more in your favor. Do you feel like you've won? 262 00:15:35,573 --> 00:15:35,653 Speaker 1: No. 263 00:15:36,453 --> 00:15:41,173 Speaker 3: I mean, when we started all this, we never went sorry. 264 00:15:41,173 --> 00:15:43,493 Speaker 3: The main name when we started all this was to 265 00:15:43,613 --> 00:15:47,173 Speaker 3: expose the truth. And I think through all the stages 266 00:15:47,253 --> 00:15:50,973 Speaker 3: we are now getting to expose the real truth in 267 00:15:51,013 --> 00:15:54,093 Speaker 3: all of this, and I think that's what most of 268 00:15:54,093 --> 00:15:57,413 Speaker 3: the victims want in this, amongst all the other things. 269 00:15:57,453 --> 00:16:01,653 Speaker 2: As well so yeah, yeah, well look on behalf of 270 00:16:01,653 --> 00:16:05,013 Speaker 2: everyone listening to this who I know has watched the 271 00:16:05,053 --> 00:16:07,973 Speaker 2: ITV show and has watched the documentary and watched everything. 272 00:16:09,053 --> 00:16:12,533 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your stubbornness and and for 273 00:16:12,693 --> 00:16:17,493 Speaker 2: so doggedly pursuing justice, because I think your story has 274 00:16:18,133 --> 00:16:20,813 Speaker 2: really has inspired people around the world. So thank you, Ellen, 275 00:16:21,653 --> 00:16:25,693 Speaker 2: You're welcome, Thanks Jack and all the very best jeers 276 00:16:27,333 --> 00:16:30,733 Speaker 2: that is Alan Bates. He continues the good fight, and 277 00:16:30,773 --> 00:16:33,253 Speaker 2: we will watch this space closely. Wouldn't it, I mean, 278 00:16:33,853 --> 00:16:38,133 Speaker 2: of the of the myriad injustices in this whole situation. 279 00:16:38,373 --> 00:16:40,613 Speaker 2: I think it would be an injustice if Alan Bates, 280 00:16:40,733 --> 00:16:43,973 Speaker 2: sometime in the future did not become us Sir Alan Bates. 281 00:16:44,453 --> 00:16:47,533 Speaker 1: For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, Listen live 282 00:16:47,653 --> 00:16:50,453 Speaker 1: to news talks he'd be from nine am Saturday, or 283 00:16:50,533 --> 00:16:52,373 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.