WEBVTT - Is a social media ban the right move to protect our youth? 

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<v Speaker 1>Kyoder. I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and this

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<v Speaker 1>is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the

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<v Speaker 1>New Zealand Herald. The National Party is looking to follow

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<v Speaker 1>Australia and ban social media for under sixteens. It has

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<v Speaker 1>submitted a member's bill that would look to limit how

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<v Speaker 1>young people engage with the likes of Instagram, TikTok and Facebook.

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<v Speaker 1>Since Australia's world leading ban was passed into law last year,

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<v Speaker 1>multiple countries are looking at bans as a way of

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<v Speaker 1>addressing concerning social media habits. But is a ban actually

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<v Speaker 1>feasible and would it address the real issues with social

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<v Speaker 1>media today? On the Front Page, Doctor Alex Batty, a

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<v Speaker 1>media lecturer at Victoria University of Wellington, joins us to

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<v Speaker 1>discuss the potential ban and if we should be following

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia's footsteps. Okay, so National and at odds here

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<v Speaker 1>and we'll dig deeper in a moment. But I guess,

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<v Speaker 1>just sort of briefly, what's behind this move from National.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's an increasing interest in spending more time offline

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<v Speaker 2>and I think everyone can relate to that. But alongside

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<v Speaker 2>there's also increasing research on the topic of how social

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<v Speaker 2>media affects people, particularly young people, And there was a

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<v Speaker 2>book published a couple of years ago by a professor

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<v Speaker 2>of psychology called Jonathan Hyatt, for The Anxious Generation, and

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<v Speaker 2>my understanding is that book has had a large impact

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<v Speaker 2>on policy both in Australia and here in New Zealand.

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<v Speaker 1>And then, so what is act's main issue with this proposal.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I can't speak for ACT, but I do understand

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<v Speaker 2>that they have raised some good points around how on

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<v Speaker 2>earth to enforce such a band age. Verification technology is

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<v Speaker 2>quite immature, meaning that they're not that reliable. They use

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<v Speaker 2>a combination of people in putting their users and putting

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<v Speaker 2>their age, but also AI to assess photos and to

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<v Speaker 2>to make a calculation based on how old a user is,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's lots of issues with that. So I think

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<v Speaker 2>just the practicality of the ban is one of the issues.

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<v Speaker 2>And perhaps another issue that X has is maybe freedom

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<v Speaker 2>of expression. By banning social media, you're actually taking away

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<v Speaker 2>young people's tools to express themselves online.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you mentioned some of those verification tools there. Do

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<v Speaker 1>we know at all how this band would actually play out?

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<v Speaker 2>No, we don't, but I know that in Australia, they're

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<v Speaker 2>working quite hard to whip this all out, but there's

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<v Speaker 2>still big question marks on how these technologies will work.

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<v Speaker 2>Academics in Australia criticizing these technologies for not working very

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<v Speaker 2>well or being very easy to work around. And they

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<v Speaker 2>also require buy in from the platforms who will have

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<v Speaker 2>their own opinion about this band and how it will affect

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<v Speaker 2>their business.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because I guess the other thing as well is like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>if we're talking about using AI or uploading some sort

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<v Speaker 1>of ID that you know adults are going to have

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<v Speaker 1>to be doing this as well, raises issues around privacy

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<v Speaker 1>and giving too much information, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean we already give so many information to

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<v Speaker 2>these platforms, right we don't think about all the data

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<v Speaker 2>we share and all the insights that we give these platforms.

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<v Speaker 2>But giving a copy of our ad seems like another

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<v Speaker 2>step something that you usually gives your government rather than

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<v Speaker 2>a social media platform that's from another country. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think people are right to really raised some privacy concerns

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<v Speaker 2>about that, particularly for young people.

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<v Speaker 1>To break it down, I guess what actually counts as

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<v Speaker 1>social media because I guess you know you hear that term,

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<v Speaker 1>and especially with the younger generation that your mind goes

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<v Speaker 1>immediately to Instagram and TikTok, and you know, for a

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<v Speaker 1>millennial that's probably more Facebook and things. But I've seen

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<v Speaker 1>some discussion around arguments whether or not YouTube counts as

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<v Speaker 1>this because like they've got YouTube shorts, which is essentially

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<v Speaker 1>a TikTok line, right.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe the spill is looking at any online platform

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<v Speaker 2>that has an element of social interaction, which arguably is

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<v Speaker 2>even broader than social media. So as you, as you

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<v Speaker 2>rightly pointed out YouTube, you have the ability to comment

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<v Speaker 2>and discuss underneath the video that would come within scope. Interestingly,

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<v Speaker 2>Google lobbies quite hard to get YouTube removed from the

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<v Speaker 2>Australian Band, so it could be interesting to see if

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<v Speaker 2>that happens here, depending on if the bell picks up momentum.

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<v Speaker 3>But look, we're looking at a wide.

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<v Speaker 2>Scope of tools that are within scope, and that's raising

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<v Speaker 2>again feasibility issues.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, is.

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<v Speaker 2>Discords or Twitch or readdits some of these other platforms

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<v Speaker 2>which have different elements of social interaction, less news feed

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<v Speaker 2>and less sort of you know content, maybe groand TikTok,

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<v Speaker 2>but there is a large range, a wide range of

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<v Speaker 2>tools that it's going to be really hard to keep

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<v Speaker 2>on top of.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I saw Chris Hopkins as well mentioned something like Roadblocks,

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<v Speaker 1>which is like a game that has a social chat element.

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<v Speaker 1>I've never played it personally, but yet you know Fortnite

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<v Speaker 1>and things like these, any things where anything where people

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<v Speaker 1>can talk to each other, I guess is muddy, right, Yes, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean it's at what point are they try trying to,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, ban the entire Internet, because the Internet is

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<v Speaker 2>social interaction. So you know, I can understand the intent

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<v Speaker 2>behind this bill, but it's just not workable. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>not feasible.

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<v Speaker 1>There's also, like you mentioned something like Redda there, whereas

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<v Speaker 1>you know, on a site like Redder, there's not the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of expectation to be yourself in the same way

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, Facebook and Instagram and like sort of

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<v Speaker 1>traditional social media is that you're representing yourself. So you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when you introduce that element of anonymity, that's a whole

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<v Speaker 1>other issue, right.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, And I suspect this sort of speaks to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this bill is designed by people who have

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<v Speaker 2>a very different relationship to the Internet. Gen x's or

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<v Speaker 2>baby boomers. We spend less time online and don't perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>understand these nuances, these differences between a reddit it's and

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<v Speaker 2>an instagram, the role of anonymity, as you were saying,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't quite understand, you know, these these differences, and

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<v Speaker 2>there is quite a generational difference I think on this.

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<v Speaker 1>Topic because at the moment, most sort of social medias

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<v Speaker 1>have in their terms and conditions that you need to

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<v Speaker 1>be thirteen, I believe to create an account. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>as you mentioned earlier, there are ways around there, and

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<v Speaker 1>that thirteen year old limit comes not from developmental safety,

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<v Speaker 1>but like a legislation in the US against collecting children's data.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that right? Yes, I believe that's true.

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<v Speaker 2>The way in which they manage or govern thirteen's and

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<v Speaker 2>under is through users sharing their age. And then also,

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<v Speaker 2>as I talked about before, using AI to make an assessment,

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<v Speaker 2>if the person actually is older than thirteen, potentially something

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<v Speaker 2>similar would need to happen for this ban, But it's

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<v Speaker 2>very very flimsy, Like do you.

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<v Speaker 1>Think that thirteen is a good age for that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of thing, because I mean, you know, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>development happens between thirteen and sixteen, So like, is there

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<v Speaker 1>a line that needs to be drawn somewhere? And I guess,

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<v Speaker 1>what's the difference between drawing at thirteen versus drawing it

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<v Speaker 1>at sixteen.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a great question, and I think depending on who

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<v Speaker 2>you ask, you get different answers.

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<v Speaker 3>I work in media and communication.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm always interested in the kind of more social

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<v Speaker 2>media and communications aspect of these questions.

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<v Speaker 3>If you talk to a psychologists, they'll think about this developmentally.

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<v Speaker 2>What I do think is interesting is these platforms are

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about this right now. I know that Meta has

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<v Speaker 2>developed a special type of account for teenagers for those

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<v Speaker 2>ages between thirteen and sixteen. So they're responding to these

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<v Speaker 2>increasing concerns about how much time young people are spending

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<v Speaker 2>on their platforms, and they're offering a kind of paired

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<v Speaker 2>back version of Satan Instagram and Facebook, whe there's more

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<v Speaker 2>privacy settings, there's sort of nudges to get you off.

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<v Speaker 2>So the platforms themselves are responding to this issue, and

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<v Speaker 2>it will be interesting to see how a public response to.

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<v Speaker 4>Parents are constantly telling us that they're really worried about

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<v Speaker 4>the impact that social media is having on their children,

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<v Speaker 4>and they say they're really struggling to manage access to

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<v Speaker 4>social media. Now I'm here with National MP Catherine wed

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<v Speaker 4>who has launched an incredible bill, a member's bill actually

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<v Speaker 4>to restrict social media for under sixteen year olds.

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<v Speaker 5>That's right, Chris. This bill is about protecting children from

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<v Speaker 5>online harm, including bullying, addiction, and exposure to inappropriate content.

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<v Speaker 5>By restricting social media access for under sixteen year olds,

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<v Speaker 5>it puts the onus on social media companies to verify

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<v Speaker 5>that someone is over the age of sixteen before they

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<v Speaker 5>access social media platforms, and it mirrors the approach taken

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<v Speaker 5>in Australia and follows work in other countries like the UK,

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<v Speaker 5>the EU and Canada.

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<v Speaker 1>Should the onus even really be on the companies to

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<v Speaker 1>be doing these things?

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<v Speaker 3>Do you think? Absolutely?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, these platforms have become multi billion dollar companies

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<v Speaker 2>in a reasonably short amount of time, and they certainly

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<v Speaker 2>should be responsible for a lot of a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these kind of alleged arms. I'm against the banning because

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's too simplistic and it doesn't really work.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm definitely all for more regulation on these platforms

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<v Speaker 2>to create safer spaces, spaces that children young people can use.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, we could do so much to protect

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<v Speaker 2>children from the algorithms, predatory practices gamification that.

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<v Speaker 3>Also can be quite predatory.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we could do a lot to actually regulate

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<v Speaker 2>these digital spaces like we do with physical spaces.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, we know that there are standards.

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<v Speaker 2>Every time you walk into a building, you know that

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<v Speaker 2>it's a safe place to be right some the same

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<v Speaker 2>digital spaces. It's a bit like the wild West, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think we could give consumers and people confidence that

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<v Speaker 2>these are safer spaces.

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<v Speaker 1>I read in an article you wrote that there's a

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<v Speaker 1>fallacy in calling people addicted to social media. You argue

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<v Speaker 1>that their habitual users. Do you mind just sort of

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<v Speaker 1>explaining what you mean the difference there?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, well, I think we're all pretty familiar with just

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<v Speaker 2>casually saying I'm so addicted to Instagram, I'm so addicted

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<v Speaker 2>to my phone. What's happened is, you know, the term

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<v Speaker 2>is being so used so broadly, it's at risk of

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<v Speaker 2>losing meaning. You talk to any clinical psychologist or someone

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<v Speaker 2>that works in addiction services. There's a reason why there's

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<v Speaker 2>quite a high standard for addiction. But it's gambling, any alcohol,

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<v Speaker 2>or in this case, you know, digital sort of social

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<v Speaker 2>media or videogome addiction, and one of the requirements has

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<v Speaker 2>to be making some kind of direct negative impact on

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<v Speaker 2>your life. So it's one thing to struggle to put

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<v Speaker 2>your phone down, but until it's actually making a real

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<v Speaker 2>material negative impact on your life, that it doesn't quite

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<v Speaker 2>go into that category of addiction. What a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people have as a habitual relationship to their phone, so

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<v Speaker 2>you know, using your phone as a habit without thinking.

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<v Speaker 2>Every time you pull out your phone and unlockers or

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<v Speaker 2>start scrolling social media, you know it's working at that

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<v Speaker 2>habitual level. That's not addiction. That's just creating a new habit,

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<v Speaker 2>and it means that you can change that habit, and

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<v Speaker 2>it can be hard. There's lots of good books out

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<v Speaker 2>there that can give you advice, but it's not addiction.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a higher.

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<v Speaker 2>Standard, and if we use it too broadly then it

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<v Speaker 2>kind of undermines the experiences that actually addictive people do have.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously there's no shortage of documentation and commentary

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<v Speaker 1>about are the dangers of spending too much time on

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<v Speaker 1>social media? But there is also some positive aspects right

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<v Speaker 1>that could be taken away from people if this band

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<v Speaker 1>were to go ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>One of my favorite things to do with my students

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<v Speaker 2>is to ask them to temporarily go offline a day,

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<v Speaker 2>forty out hours, thirty two hours whatever a weekend. And

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<v Speaker 2>when you go offline, you become more acutely aware of

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<v Speaker 2>your relationship with your phone, the bad and the good,

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<v Speaker 2>and how we actually use these things for a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of good things, keeping in touch with your grandma on

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<v Speaker 2>the other side of the world, or you know, sort

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<v Speaker 2>of overseas and you're you're keeping touch with or you

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<v Speaker 2>know a number of things. And it's not an easy

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<v Speaker 2>feats to suddenly go offline. It comes with many challenges

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it's a really big ass with young

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<v Speaker 2>people to suddenly tell them to get offline.

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<v Speaker 1>Also, yeah, I saw you mentioned because social media has

0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.720
<v Speaker 1>you're able to spread out your experience and you know,

0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:27.640
<v Speaker 1>used to just be calling out into the void. But

0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.520
<v Speaker 1>if you're going through something now, and especially you know

0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.120
<v Speaker 1>there's kids in like a rural towns that are going

0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.520
<v Speaker 1>through something, they now have the ability to like talk

0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.680
<v Speaker 1>to other people going through the same thing, where you

0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.640
<v Speaker 1>know they used to have to hop on a bus

0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:42.560
<v Speaker 1>to a major city to talk to someone about that.

0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:43.439
<v Speaker 3>Right, that's right.

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:45.840
<v Speaker 2>I think if you're if you're already fit in in

0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.880
<v Speaker 2>your community, then going offline is less of a tough

0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:54.400
<v Speaker 2>task because people like you are in your community. But

0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>if you're different for whatever reason, if you're you know,

0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.680
<v Speaker 2>if you're gay, or if you're from a different ethnicity

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.679
<v Speaker 2>and you stand out, then going offline could be a

0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.840
<v Speaker 2>lot harder. Because these online communities that social media provides

0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.760
<v Speaker 2>are these only spaces where you can be celebrated.

0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:11.800
<v Speaker 3>For who you are.

0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.120
<v Speaker 2>So social media is a crucial place for identity formation,

0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.080
<v Speaker 2>and that kind of stuff has not really been talked

0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.960
<v Speaker 2>about enough. So it's easy for the kids that already

0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:22.920
<v Speaker 2>fit in to maybe go offline, but less so for

0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:24.080
<v Speaker 2>the others.

0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:29.120
<v Speaker 1>The introduction of this bell sort of feels like a

0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.680
<v Speaker 1>next step to what the government introduced last year. The

0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.080
<v Speaker 1>Phones Away for the Day policy about banning phones and

0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.240
<v Speaker 1>schools a year on from that now was introduced in

0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.600
<v Speaker 1>April of last year. How has that gone?

0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:43.640
<v Speaker 3>Do we know? We know a little, but we could

0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:44.679
<v Speaker 3>learn a lot more. So.

0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:49.280
<v Speaker 2>The students that have gone through this high school phone

0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.160
<v Speaker 2>band have started university for the first time of this year,

0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:54.160
<v Speaker 2>and I'm about to teach a lot of them and

0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.480
<v Speaker 2>I can't wait to do that and put it to

0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:58.600
<v Speaker 2>them and short you know what we tend to do

0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:00.800
<v Speaker 2>in this area as we just to the parents, don't

0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:01.920
<v Speaker 2>talk to the younger people enough.

0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:03.959
<v Speaker 3>There's been I think one survey.

0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.679
<v Speaker 2>Researchers have our students about their experiences and during the

0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>high school phone bank and the responses are mixed. Some

0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.960
<v Speaker 2>enjoy the reduction of distractions, while others feel frustrated that

0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.760
<v Speaker 2>they can't use their phones during the school breaks and

0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.400
<v Speaker 2>think that maybe there's somewhere in the middle that the

0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.680
<v Speaker 2>policy should should land. But we could do so much

0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.640
<v Speaker 2>more research in the space, and it's research that I'm doing.

0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm working with my first year university students to give

0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.280
<v Speaker 2>them tools to be able to not use their phones

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.440
<v Speaker 2>during lectures at university and we'll see how they're kind

0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.520
<v Speaker 2>of learning, experience changes, and whether or not they're able

0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.160
<v Speaker 2>to focus more during class.

0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.160
<v Speaker 6>But just putting together a band slap dash in the

0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.600
<v Speaker 6>middle of a weaker parliament and saying this is a solution,

0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.200
<v Speaker 6>it's hard to believe that a solution that simple can

0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.200
<v Speaker 6>actually solve a problem this complex. And here's just one

0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.560
<v Speaker 6>reason why you're not actually banning kids from the internet,

0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.880
<v Speaker 6>you're banning kids from social media companies. There's still a

0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.440
<v Speaker 6>million other places on the Internet that can have those problems,

0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.040
<v Speaker 6>and actually, you know, if anything, while social media companies

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.560
<v Speaker 6>are banded in some ways at least a relatively controlled

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.080
<v Speaker 6>environment compared with where they can end up in the dark.

0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:24.400
<v Speaker 1>Web, and actors suggested a quality public inquiry into social

0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.560
<v Speaker 1>media rather than a band. Do you think that would

0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:27.400
<v Speaker 1>work well?

0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:29.720
<v Speaker 2>I know that there's been a lot of these sorts

0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.360
<v Speaker 2>of inquiries already, and there's a number of experts and

0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.040
<v Speaker 2>interest groups that have already met and continuing to meet

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.640
<v Speaker 2>to chat about this. I think what Act's doing is

0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.520
<v Speaker 2>trying to appea it's voting base, and they suspect a

0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of the ACT membership agree with the band, or

0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.800
<v Speaker 2>at least. What this highlights is how complex this issue

0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 2>is because on one level, a lot of people want

0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>the band, but at the same time it raises issues

0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.520
<v Speaker 2>like restricting freedom of expression, so it's complex. I do

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.360
<v Speaker 2>like the for more research, and I think we need

0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 2>research from all disciplines, experts in health, experts and media,

0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.440
<v Speaker 2>experts in psychology, experts in computer science. I think this

0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.160
<v Speaker 2>is a complex problem that needs to draw from many

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.960
<v Speaker 2>different areas of expertise to come up with solutions.

0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.720
<v Speaker 1>It's I guess the million dollar question, but like, what

0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.640
<v Speaker 1>is the answer here? Is there a success story from

0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.400
<v Speaker 1>anywhere in the world that we could be looking to

0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:25.800
<v Speaker 1>follow their leader or anything like that.

0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:27.960
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't believe. So it's far to early days.

0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.680
<v Speaker 2>I know there are small towns in different parts of

0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.920
<v Speaker 2>the world. There's maybe some Albans somewhere in the UK

0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.560
<v Speaker 2>that have no phones for young people, and they're kind

0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.240
<v Speaker 2>of interesting case studies, but it's generally too early to

0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.720
<v Speaker 2>be able to give any definitive answer. I don't think

0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.800
<v Speaker 2>we maybe ever will have a definitive answer. You know,

0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.480
<v Speaker 2>this isn't something like tobacco or alcohol where you can

0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:55.520
<v Speaker 2>actually definitively say through scientific experimentation whether this thing is

0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>good for you or bad for you. It's just too complex,

0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.720
<v Speaker 2>you know. We use social media for so many different things.

0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.440
<v Speaker 2>So what I think will happen is we'll see emerging

0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.800
<v Speaker 2>different approaches and cultures to the topic. Will have more

0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.960
<v Speaker 2>tech free schools, so parents have the opportunities and the

0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.120
<v Speaker 2>choice to send their children either to a tech positive

0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.879
<v Speaker 2>or a tech skeptical school, and other kind of you know,

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.200
<v Speaker 2>ways of thinking and using or not using these technologies.

0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:21.520
<v Speaker 3>I don't think this is too is going to go

0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:22.360
<v Speaker 3>away for a long time.

0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Just it's interesting because a lot of people are

0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.040
<v Speaker 1>saying like, oh, well, it's too late, you know, the

0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.720
<v Speaker 1>horse has bolted. But it's interesting you're kind of saying

0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:31.399
<v Speaker 1>it's actually too early in some ways.

0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:31.720
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.919
<v Speaker 2>Well, I wonder if they're referring to you know, you

0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>can't put social media back in the box because it's out,

0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.760
<v Speaker 2>and so if you ban it for young people, they're

0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.320
<v Speaker 2>just going to go somewhere else. And I do largely

0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.159
<v Speaker 2>agree with that. You know, social media has changed the

0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.399
<v Speaker 2>way we relate to each other norms. You know, I

0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:53.639
<v Speaker 2>talk to students these days and just the expectation around

0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.000
<v Speaker 2>how available you should be has completely changed. You know,

0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.520
<v Speaker 2>people generally expect to be available all the time, and

0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.800
<v Speaker 2>that wasn't the case before social media, before mobile media.

0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.680
<v Speaker 2>So the norms have changed the things that we take

0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.920
<v Speaker 2>for granted. So it is really hard to go back

0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.680
<v Speaker 2>when those kind of things have changed.

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:12.879
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, Alex.

0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:13.560
<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.840
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.240
<v Speaker 1>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.960
<v Speaker 1>at inzidherld dot co, dot NZID. The Front Page is

0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.440
<v Speaker 1>produced by Ethan Sells. I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to the

0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.800
<v Speaker 1>Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.280
<v Speaker 1>and tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.