1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Kyoder. I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and this 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. The National Party is looking to follow 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: Australia and ban social media for under sixteens. It has 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: submitted a member's bill that would look to limit how 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: young people engage with the likes of Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: Since Australia's world leading ban was passed into law last year, 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: multiple countries are looking at bans as a way of 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: addressing concerning social media habits. But is a ban actually 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: feasible and would it address the real issues with social 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: media today? On the Front Page, Doctor Alex Batty, a 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: media lecturer at Victoria University of Wellington, joins us to 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: discuss the potential ban and if we should be following 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: in Australia's footsteps. Okay, so National and at odds here 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: and we'll dig deeper in a moment. But I guess, 16 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: just sort of briefly, what's behind this move from National. 17 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 2: Well, there's an increasing interest in spending more time offline 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: and I think everyone can relate to that. But alongside 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: there's also increasing research on the topic of how social 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: media affects people, particularly young people, And there was a 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: book published a couple of years ago by a professor 22 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 2: of psychology called Jonathan Hyatt, for The Anxious Generation, and 23 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: my understanding is that book has had a large impact 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 2: on policy both in Australia and here in New Zealand. 25 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: And then, so what is act's main issue with this proposal. 26 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 2: Well, I can't speak for ACT, but I do understand 27 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: that they have raised some good points around how on 28 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: earth to enforce such a band age. Verification technology is 29 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: quite immature, meaning that they're not that reliable. They use 30 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: a combination of people in putting their users and putting 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: their age, but also AI to assess photos and to 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: to make a calculation based on how old a user is, 33 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: and there's lots of issues with that. So I think 34 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: just the practicality of the ban is one of the issues. 35 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: And perhaps another issue that X has is maybe freedom 36 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: of expression. By banning social media, you're actually taking away 37 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: young people's tools to express themselves online. 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned some of those verification tools there. Do 39 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: we know at all how this band would actually play out? 40 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: No, we don't, but I know that in Australia, they're 41 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: working quite hard to whip this all out, but there's 42 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: still big question marks on how these technologies will work. 43 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: Academics in Australia criticizing these technologies for not working very 44 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: well or being very easy to work around. And they 45 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: also require buy in from the platforms who will have 46 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: their own opinion about this band and how it will affect 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: their business. 48 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I guess the other thing as well is like, yeah, 49 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: if we're talking about using AI or uploading some sort 50 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: of ID that you know adults are going to have 51 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: to be doing this as well, raises issues around privacy 52 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: and giving too much information, right. 53 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean we already give so many information to 54 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 2: these platforms, right we don't think about all the data 55 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: we share and all the insights that we give these platforms. 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: But giving a copy of our ad seems like another 57 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: step something that you usually gives your government rather than 58 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: a social media platform that's from another country. So I 59 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: think people are right to really raised some privacy concerns 60 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: about that, particularly for young people. 61 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: To break it down, I guess what actually counts as 62 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 1: social media because I guess you know you hear that term, 63 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: and especially with the younger generation that your mind goes 64 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: immediately to Instagram and TikTok, and you know, for a 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: millennial that's probably more Facebook and things. But I've seen 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: some discussion around arguments whether or not YouTube counts as 67 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: this because like they've got YouTube shorts, which is essentially 68 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: a TikTok line, right. 69 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 3: Yes, that's right. 70 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: I believe the spill is looking at any online platform 71 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: that has an element of social interaction, which arguably is 72 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: even broader than social media. So as you, as you 73 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: rightly pointed out YouTube, you have the ability to comment 74 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: and discuss underneath the video that would come within scope. Interestingly, 75 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: Google lobbies quite hard to get YouTube removed from the 76 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: Australian Band, so it could be interesting to see if 77 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: that happens here, depending on if the bell picks up momentum. 78 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 3: But look, we're looking at a wide. 79 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: Scope of tools that are within scope, and that's raising 80 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 2: again feasibility issues. 81 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: You know, is. 82 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: Discords or Twitch or readdits some of these other platforms 83 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: which have different elements of social interaction, less news feed 84 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: and less sort of you know content, maybe groand TikTok, 85 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: but there is a large range, a wide range of 86 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: tools that it's going to be really hard to keep 87 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: on top of. 88 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 89 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: I saw Chris Hopkins as well mentioned something like Roadblocks, 90 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: which is like a game that has a social chat element. 91 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: I've never played it personally, but yet you know Fortnite 92 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: and things like these, any things where anything where people 93 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: can talk to each other, I guess is muddy, right, Yes, I. 94 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 2: Mean it's at what point are they try trying to, 95 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 2: you know, ban the entire Internet, because the Internet is 96 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 2: social interaction. So you know, I can understand the intent 97 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 2: behind this bill, but it's just not workable. It's just 98 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 2: not feasible. 99 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: There's also, like you mentioned something like Redda there, whereas 100 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: you know, on a site like Redder, there's not the 101 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: sort of expectation to be yourself in the same way 102 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: that you know, Facebook and Instagram and like sort of 103 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: traditional social media is that you're representing yourself. So you know, 104 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: when you introduce that element of anonymity, that's a whole 105 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: other issue, right. 106 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: That's right, And I suspect this sort of speaks to 107 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: you know, this bill is designed by people who have 108 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: a very different relationship to the Internet. Gen x's or 109 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: baby boomers. We spend less time online and don't perhaps 110 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: understand these nuances, these differences between a reddit it's and 111 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: an instagram, the role of anonymity, as you were saying, 112 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: they don't quite understand, you know, these these differences, and 113 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: there is quite a generational difference I think on this. 114 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: Topic because at the moment, most sort of social medias 115 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: have in their terms and conditions that you need to 116 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: be thirteen, I believe to create an account. But you know, 117 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, there are ways around there, and 118 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: that thirteen year old limit comes not from developmental safety, 119 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: but like a legislation in the US against collecting children's data. 120 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: Is that right? Yes, I believe that's true. 121 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: The way in which they manage or govern thirteen's and 122 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: under is through users sharing their age. And then also, 123 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: as I talked about before, using AI to make an assessment, 124 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: if the person actually is older than thirteen, potentially something 125 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 2: similar would need to happen for this ban, But it's 126 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: very very flimsy, Like do you. 127 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: Think that thirteen is a good age for that sort 128 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: of thing, because I mean, you know, a lot of 129 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: development happens between thirteen and sixteen, So like, is there 130 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: a line that needs to be drawn somewhere? And I guess, 131 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: what's the difference between drawing at thirteen versus drawing it 132 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: at sixteen. 133 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: It's a great question, and I think depending on who 134 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: you ask, you get different answers. 135 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 3: I work in media and communication. 136 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: So I'm always interested in the kind of more social 137 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: media and communications aspect of these questions. 138 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: If you talk to a psychologists, they'll think about this developmentally. 139 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: What I do think is interesting is these platforms are 140 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: thinking about this right now. I know that Meta has 141 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: developed a special type of account for teenagers for those 142 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: ages between thirteen and sixteen. So they're responding to these 143 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: increasing concerns about how much time young people are spending 144 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: on their platforms, and they're offering a kind of paired 145 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: back version of Satan Instagram and Facebook, whe there's more 146 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: privacy settings, there's sort of nudges to get you off. 147 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: So the platforms themselves are responding to this issue, and 148 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: it will be interesting to see how a public response to. 149 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 4: Parents are constantly telling us that they're really worried about 150 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 4: the impact that social media is having on their children, 151 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 4: and they say they're really struggling to manage access to 152 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 4: social media. Now I'm here with National MP Catherine wed 153 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 4: who has launched an incredible bill, a member's bill actually 154 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 4: to restrict social media for under sixteen year olds. 155 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 5: That's right, Chris. This bill is about protecting children from 156 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 5: online harm, including bullying, addiction, and exposure to inappropriate content. 157 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 5: By restricting social media access for under sixteen year olds, 158 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 5: it puts the onus on social media companies to verify 159 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 5: that someone is over the age of sixteen before they 160 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 5: access social media platforms, and it mirrors the approach taken 161 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 5: in Australia and follows work in other countries like the UK, 162 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 5: the EU and Canada. 163 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: Should the onus even really be on the companies to 164 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: be doing these things? 165 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: Do you think? Absolutely? 166 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 2: I mean, these platforms have become multi billion dollar companies 167 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 2: in a reasonably short amount of time, and they certainly 168 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: should be responsible for a lot of a lot of 169 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: these kind of alleged arms. I'm against the banning because 170 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: I think it's too simplistic and it doesn't really work. 171 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: But I'm definitely all for more regulation on these platforms 172 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: to create safer spaces, spaces that children young people can use. 173 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: And you know, we could do so much to protect 174 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: children from the algorithms, predatory practices gamification that. 175 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 3: Also can be quite predatory. 176 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 2: I think we could do a lot to actually regulate 177 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: these digital spaces like we do with physical spaces. 178 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 3: You know, we know that there are standards. 179 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: Every time you walk into a building, you know that 180 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: it's a safe place to be right some the same 181 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: digital spaces. It's a bit like the wild West, and 182 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: I think we could give consumers and people confidence that 183 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: these are safer spaces. 184 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: I read in an article you wrote that there's a 185 00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: fallacy in calling people addicted to social media. You argue 186 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: that their habitual users. Do you mind just sort of 187 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: explaining what you mean the difference there? 188 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: Sure, well, I think we're all pretty familiar with just 189 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: casually saying I'm so addicted to Instagram, I'm so addicted 190 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 2: to my phone. What's happened is, you know, the term 191 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: is being so used so broadly, it's at risk of 192 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: losing meaning. You talk to any clinical psychologist or someone 193 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: that works in addiction services. There's a reason why there's 194 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: quite a high standard for addiction. But it's gambling, any alcohol, 195 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: or in this case, you know, digital sort of social 196 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 2: media or videogome addiction, and one of the requirements has 197 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: to be making some kind of direct negative impact on 198 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: your life. So it's one thing to struggle to put 199 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: your phone down, but until it's actually making a real 200 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: material negative impact on your life, that it doesn't quite 201 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: go into that category of addiction. What a lot of 202 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: people have as a habitual relationship to their phone, so 203 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: you know, using your phone as a habit without thinking. 204 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: Every time you pull out your phone and unlockers or 205 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: start scrolling social media, you know it's working at that 206 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 2: habitual level. That's not addiction. That's just creating a new habit, 207 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: and it means that you can change that habit, and 208 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: it can be hard. There's lots of good books out 209 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: there that can give you advice, but it's not addiction. 210 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 3: That's a higher. 211 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: Standard, and if we use it too broadly then it 212 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: kind of undermines the experiences that actually addictive people do have. 213 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's no shortage of documentation and commentary 214 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: about are the dangers of spending too much time on 215 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: social media? But there is also some positive aspects right 216 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: that could be taken away from people if this band 217 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: were to go ahead. 218 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 219 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: One of my favorite things to do with my students 220 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: is to ask them to temporarily go offline a day, 221 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: forty out hours, thirty two hours whatever a weekend. And 222 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 2: when you go offline, you become more acutely aware of 223 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: your relationship with your phone, the bad and the good, 224 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: and how we actually use these things for a lot 225 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: of good things, keeping in touch with your grandma on 226 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: the other side of the world, or you know, sort 227 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: of overseas and you're you're keeping touch with or you 228 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: know a number of things. And it's not an easy 229 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: feats to suddenly go offline. It comes with many challenges 230 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 2: and I think it's a really big ass with young 231 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 2: people to suddenly tell them to get offline. 232 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: Also, yeah, I saw you mentioned because social media has 233 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: you're able to spread out your experience and you know, 234 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: used to just be calling out into the void. But 235 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: if you're going through something now, and especially you know 236 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: there's kids in like a rural towns that are going 237 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: through something, they now have the ability to like talk 238 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: to other people going through the same thing, where you 239 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: know they used to have to hop on a bus 240 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: to a major city to talk to someone about that. 241 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 3: Right, that's right. 242 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 2: I think if you're if you're already fit in in 243 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: your community, then going offline is less of a tough 244 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: task because people like you are in your community. But 245 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 2: if you're different for whatever reason, if you're you know, 246 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 2: if you're gay, or if you're from a different ethnicity 247 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 2: and you stand out, then going offline could be a 248 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: lot harder. Because these online communities that social media provides 249 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 2: are these only spaces where you can be celebrated. 250 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 3: For who you are. 251 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: So social media is a crucial place for identity formation, 252 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 2: and that kind of stuff has not really been talked 253 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: about enough. So it's easy for the kids that already 254 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: fit in to maybe go offline, but less so for 255 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 2: the others. 256 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: The introduction of this bell sort of feels like a 257 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: next step to what the government introduced last year. The 258 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: Phones Away for the Day policy about banning phones and 259 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: schools a year on from that now was introduced in 260 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: April of last year. How has that gone? 261 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 3: Do we know? We know a little, but we could 262 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 3: learn a lot more. So. 263 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: The students that have gone through this high school phone 264 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: band have started university for the first time of this year, 265 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: and I'm about to teach a lot of them and 266 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: I can't wait to do that and put it to 267 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 2: them and short you know what we tend to do 268 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: in this area as we just to the parents, don't 269 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: talk to the younger people enough. 270 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 3: There's been I think one survey. 271 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: Researchers have our students about their experiences and during the 272 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 2: high school phone bank and the responses are mixed. Some 273 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 2: enjoy the reduction of distractions, while others feel frustrated that 274 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: they can't use their phones during the school breaks and 275 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: think that maybe there's somewhere in the middle that the 276 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: policy should should land. But we could do so much 277 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: more research in the space, and it's research that I'm doing. 278 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: I'm working with my first year university students to give 279 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: them tools to be able to not use their phones 280 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: during lectures at university and we'll see how they're kind 281 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: of learning, experience changes, and whether or not they're able 282 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: to focus more during class. 283 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 6: But just putting together a band slap dash in the 284 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 6: middle of a weaker parliament and saying this is a solution, 285 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 6: it's hard to believe that a solution that simple can 286 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 6: actually solve a problem this complex. And here's just one 287 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 6: reason why you're not actually banning kids from the internet, 288 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 6: you're banning kids from social media companies. There's still a 289 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 6: million other places on the Internet that can have those problems, 290 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 6: and actually, you know, if anything, while social media companies 291 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 6: are banded in some ways at least a relatively controlled 292 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 6: environment compared with where they can end up in the dark. 293 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: Web, and actors suggested a quality public inquiry into social 294 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: media rather than a band. Do you think that would 295 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: work well? 296 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: I know that there's been a lot of these sorts 297 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: of inquiries already, and there's a number of experts and 298 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: interest groups that have already met and continuing to meet 299 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: to chat about this. I think what Act's doing is 300 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: trying to appea it's voting base, and they suspect a 301 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: lot of the ACT membership agree with the band, or 302 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: at least. What this highlights is how complex this issue 303 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 2: is because on one level, a lot of people want 304 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: the band, but at the same time it raises issues 305 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 2: like restricting freedom of expression, so it's complex. I do 306 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: like the for more research, and I think we need 307 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: research from all disciplines, experts in health, experts and media, 308 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: experts in psychology, experts in computer science. I think this 309 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: is a complex problem that needs to draw from many 310 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: different areas of expertise to come up with solutions. 311 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: It's I guess the million dollar question, but like, what 312 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: is the answer here? Is there a success story from 313 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: anywhere in the world that we could be looking to 314 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: follow their leader or anything like that. 315 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: No, I don't believe. So it's far to early days. 316 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: I know there are small towns in different parts of 317 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: the world. There's maybe some Albans somewhere in the UK 318 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: that have no phones for young people, and they're kind 319 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: of interesting case studies, but it's generally too early to 320 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: be able to give any definitive answer. I don't think 321 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: we maybe ever will have a definitive answer. You know, 322 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: this isn't something like tobacco or alcohol where you can 323 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: actually definitively say through scientific experimentation whether this thing is 324 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: good for you or bad for you. It's just too complex, 325 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: you know. We use social media for so many different things. 326 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: So what I think will happen is we'll see emerging 327 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: different approaches and cultures to the topic. Will have more 328 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: tech free schools, so parents have the opportunities and the 329 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 2: choice to send their children either to a tech positive 330 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 2: or a tech skeptical school, and other kind of you know, 331 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 2: ways of thinking and using or not using these technologies. 332 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: I don't think this is too is going to go 333 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 3: away for a long time. 334 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, Just it's interesting because a lot of people are 335 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: saying like, oh, well, it's too late, you know, the 336 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: horse has bolted. But it's interesting you're kind of saying 337 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: it's actually too early in some ways. 338 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 3: Right. 339 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 2: Well, I wonder if they're referring to you know, you 340 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: can't put social media back in the box because it's out, 341 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 2: and so if you ban it for young people, they're 342 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: just going to go somewhere else. And I do largely 343 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 2: agree with that. You know, social media has changed the 344 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 2: way we relate to each other norms. You know, I 345 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: talk to students these days and just the expectation around 346 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: how available you should be has completely changed. You know, 347 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: people generally expect to be available all the time, and 348 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: that wasn't the case before social media, before mobile media. 349 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: So the norms have changed the things that we take 350 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: for granted. So it is really hard to go back 351 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: when those kind of things have changed. 352 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Alex. 353 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: Thank you. 354 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 355 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 356 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: at inzidherld dot co, dot NZID. The Front Page is 357 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sells. I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to the 358 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 359 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: and tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.