1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. With a 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 2: price tag of one hundred and fifty three million dollars. 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: The Coalition government's paving the way for charter schools to 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: make it comeback. 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty five. 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: The government will fund fifteen new charter schools and the 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 2: conversion of up to thirty five state schools. The application 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: process is officially open, despite ongoing criticism from the opposition 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: and teaching unions about the return of the controversial system. 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Associate Minister of Education. 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: And Character School Champion David Seymour. 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: Is with us to discuss the pros and cons of 15 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 2: the system. First off, David, can you tell me what 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: difference She's a charter school to any other school. 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 3: Charter school can be started by a community group. It 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 3: could be an EWE, It could be a business. It 19 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: could be a charity or a group of educators who 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 3: have got frustrated with the public system and have an 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 3: idea to engage students better. Alternatively, it can be an 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 3: existing state or state integrated school that wants to convert 23 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: to charter school status. So once you get past the 24 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 3: genesis of them, there is basically one big difference between 25 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 3: a charter in a state school and a state school. 26 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: You have quite extensive stipulation around what money is received 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 3: and how it is spent. For example, there's a budget 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 3: for buildings, there's a budget for staff. The staff are 29 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 3: actually paid by the government according to government contracts. There 30 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: are different funds for different activities like learning support and 31 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: so on. With a charter school they get the same 32 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: amount of money that would go to a state school 33 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 3: in total, but in cash, so that's the first thing. 34 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 3: They get flexibility of funding. The second thing is that 35 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 3: a state school doesn't actually face any hard requirements for 36 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 3: student attendance and student achievements, so those things are certainly encouraged, 37 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 3: but ultimately, if students don't show up, or students perform 38 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: poorly academically at a school, then there's no ultimate consequence 39 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 3: for that. With a charter school, they sign a contract 40 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 3: that says students must attend and students must make progress 41 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 3: towards achievement, and that's important. It's the progress that matters 42 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: because obviously some students will start at different levels, but 43 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 3: they must make measurable progress towards achievement. Otherwise they can 44 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 3: lose their funding and be shut down or have their 45 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 3: management taken over by someone who has better ideas for 46 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 3: how to achieve for the students. 47 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: Right, So, that big benefit there from charter schools I'm 48 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 2: seeing is responsibility, the ability for schools to be. 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: Held accountable for poor performance. 50 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: So at the moment, if a state school, say, is 51 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: having awful performance, no one's passing in CAA levels and 52 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: attendance is poor, are there any consequences? 53 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: Well, theoretically a number of things can happen. One is 54 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 3: that the board can be held accountable by the parents. 55 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: But what tends to happen is if you have a 56 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 3: community that is very successful has a lot of highly 57 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: educated parents, that they will do that quite well. If 58 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: you have a community that has some socioeconomic challenges, often 59 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: they find they don't actually have the government's capacity and 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 3: catability to hold their board accountable or for the board 61 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 3: to hold their principal and staff accountable. And so labor 62 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: recognize this when they were in power, they propose effective 63 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 3: setting up regional ministry hubs that would fill a lot 64 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 3: more of governance of each school. They didn't go through 65 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: with those reforms for a variety of reasons. That so 66 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 3: happened back in two thousand and eighteen. But this is 67 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 3: a long term problem with the state sector in New 68 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: Zealand that we are seeking to solve by changing up 69 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 3: the way that the schools a government and manage. And 70 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 3: of course the other thing that can happen is that 71 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 3: with an adverse Education Review Office report, the government can 72 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 3: replace board of trustees with a commission manager or statutory manager. 73 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 3: That this happens from time to time and some schools 74 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: go in and out of statutory management. However, ultimately, if 75 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: you don't change the flexibility they have to deliver results 76 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 3: and actually enable them to do things differently, then it's 77 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,119 Speaker 3: really just a case of the beatings will continue until 78 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 3: morale improve, and that's never been a successful form. So 79 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 3: you know, in our view, your boy have hard accountability, 80 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 3: but also give their educators flexibility to get involved in 81 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 3: a different way of engaging students. 82 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 4: Not just creating new ones, but converting some state schools 83 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 4: as well. Since Stevens Marty Boys Boarding School also known 84 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 4: as Tippany will become a charter school, they. 85 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 5: Will look quite different that they'll start doing and finish late. 86 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: But the productivity that I think the prevalents over that 87 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: time is really crucial. 88 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: Well, there's already a wide range of offerings for parents, though, 89 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: write everything from KUTA and public schools to private schools, 90 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,119 Speaker 2: public integrated special character correspondence. 91 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: Why do parents need another option? 92 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 3: Well, I acknowledge that there are a wide variety of 93 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 3: schools in New Zealand. But if you start to think 94 00:05:54,760 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 3: about the choices that parents have if wealthy versus a disadvances, 95 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 3: it's certainly true that parents with money can move to 96 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 3: a more expensive school zone. Until a lot of real 97 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 3: estate advertising is around that parents with money can pay 98 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 3: sometimes twenty five thirty thousand dollars a year per child 99 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 3: after tax to send their children to an independent or 100 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 3: private school. But if you're a parent who doesn't have 101 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 3: those kinds of capabilities, then you may find that actually 102 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: you don't have the kind of choices others do. So 103 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 3: I think it's critical that we actually develop choices that 104 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 3: are available regardless of how much money you have. And 105 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 3: in many ways I'm an old fashioned lefty, but I 106 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 3: believe that we pay taxes for education so every child 107 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 3: has the opportunity to be developed to their full academic potential. 108 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 3: I don't think we're doing that right now. And the 109 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 3: actual left wing parties and the form of labor and 110 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 3: grants that they are actually more wedded to the provide 111 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 3: of the education, particularly not the teachers but their unions, 112 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: then they are to getting the outcome for the students. 113 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 3: You'll notice I didn't mention Tair party Maldi, who have 114 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 3: told me they're actually very much in favor of charter schools. 115 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: So with the charter school model, could there be any room, 116 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: say for religious schools, ones catering to neurodiversity perhaps, or 117 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: even schools I've seen in the US there's ones for 118 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus youth. 119 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: Is that a possibility down the track? 120 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: I think probably all of those are possibilities. I mean, 121 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 3: for one thing, we already had a large number of 122 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 3: several hundred religious schools in the form of Catholic and 123 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: other denominational state integrated schools, and they from today are 124 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 3: eligible to apply and convert, and they could keep their 125 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: religious character. If it was a new startup charter school, 126 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: and theory there could be one with a faith based 127 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: character that they're going to need to be ready to 128 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 3: include and accept any students who apply, so they still 129 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 3: have to do that in a way that it doesn't 130 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 3: rule without or put off people for a time. Certainly, 131 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 3: we've had expressions of interest already from potential school operators 132 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 3: who would like to cater for students who are neurodiverse. 133 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 3: That that's a major issue for parents and educases made 134 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 3: across the board. I'm not familiar with the old g 135 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 3: B t Q plus school in the United States, but 136 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: we would certainly take seriously an application because you know, 137 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: there's a lot of challenges that students face around the 138 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 3: development of the sexuality, and it may be that there 139 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 3: are educators who had a good idea for doing that. 140 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 3: I also just make the point that this should be 141 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: seen as a massive opportunity for educators because at the moment, 142 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: if I hear one complaint from teachers and principles, it 143 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: is they are sick and tired of the fans and 144 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: the meddling and the education system putting all sorts of demands. 145 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: Someone put it to me today, I get seven emails 146 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 3: a day I have to answer from the Ministry of 147 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 3: Education so they can do their job, not for the 148 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: benefit of the students in my school and That was 149 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: someone I met who was very interested in becoming a 150 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 3: charter school. Because you sign that contract, it's ten year contract, 151 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: you get your results, you get your money, and you're 152 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 3: actually free, with professional autonomy to educate in ways that 153 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 3: are successful and actually behave the way that lawyers or 154 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: accountants or engineers or architects get to behave with professional 155 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 3: autonomy rather than a highly politicized system. 156 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: When charter schools were scrapped in twenty seventeen, are called 157 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 2: an expensive, failed experiment. Now the Greens are calling the 158 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: resurgence of them your kind of vanity project. 159 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: How do you respond to that? 160 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 3: Well, I start with the second. But you know, I'm 161 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 3: a member of Parliament from EPSOM and the EPSOM Electric. 162 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 3: We don't just have some of their schools in museum. 163 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 3: We're not their schools in the world. So I don't 164 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 3: need to spend or why political capital on running a 165 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: type of school that will mainly benefit students from disadvantaged background. 166 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 3: I could just be a member of Parliament from a 167 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 3: very very advantage part of the country with great schools 168 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 3: and never think about this. So it's a strange vanity 169 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 3: project when actually I'm responding to a deep needs in 170 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 3: New Zealand to get better education so that each student 171 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 3: can flourish in their own way, something I believe in 172 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: deeply and I think it's for the good of the 173 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 3: whole country. The second thing is I do actually accept 174 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 3: some of the criticisms around the way that charter schools 175 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 3: were funded in the first round from twenty twelve to 176 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen. I think in some cases they actually were 177 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 3: given more money than they should. However, I can absolutely 178 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 3: say that we have reduced the amount of funding that 179 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: is available to the exact same amount pursudent that a 180 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 3: state school would receive, something that I have to say 181 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 3: I actually worked hard towards when I took over as 182 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: the Undersecretary responsible for charter schools back in twenty fourteen. 183 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 3: Although I acknowledge the funding formulas they are initially set 184 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 3: up in twenty twelve and thirteen, we're not quite right. However, 185 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 3: I think you only got to ask yourself. Why are 186 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 3: the likes of the Green Party sayings? Why are they 187 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: opposed to giving professional autonomy to teachers, Why are they 188 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 3: opposed to create a new options, Why are they're posts 189 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 3: to local governments. Why are they versus something that to 190 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 3: party MARII is actually something because they know what a 191 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: state centralized education system is done to Mary and other 192 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 3: minorities for that matter. And the answer is it's got 193 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 3: everything to do with lobbying from not the teachers, but 194 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: the unions, because those unions take one percent of a 195 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 3: teacher's salary to negotiate collective employee agreements. They know that 196 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 3: charter skills are exempt from collective employment agreements. The individual contracts, 197 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 3: just like any other employer in the museum economy, means 198 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 3: you can get rid of bad teachers. It means you 199 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 3: can pay more to good teachers. And that for the 200 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 3: unions is an existential threat. And it's shameful that labor 201 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 3: of the Greens would rather line up besides middle class 202 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 3: people with comfortable jobs and union officers rather than the 203 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 3: education profession in general and the disadvanced students of this country. 204 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: In terms of why perhaps unions are opposed to these schools, 205 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 2: are you saying that they're worried they won't be getting 206 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: their cut. 207 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 3: The charter schools are an existential threat to the union 208 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 3: because charter schools are not required to use the contracts 209 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 3: that gans negotiate with teachers. Charter schools if they proceed, 210 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 3: will mean that the account of fees paid to union 211 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 3: offices and well is dramatically reduced. And that is the beginning, middle, 212 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: and end of their opposition. 213 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: Chris Abercrombie is the president of the PPTA. Why are 214 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: you not loving this? 215 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,599 Speaker 5: Well, it's just the privatization of a public good, you know, 216 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 5: taking public money and putting into private profit. And they 217 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 5: don't benefit anyone apart from those people who again in 218 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 5: the profit. 219 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: Doesn't it benefit some of the kids? 220 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 5: Well, I think the moons benefit to our students would 221 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 5: be strengthening the state system. They're not cycling money out 222 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 5: of it, so I think there would be the biggest 223 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 5: benefit to the vast majority of students in this country. 224 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: How do we justify paying one hundred and fifty three 225 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 2: million dollars on bringing back charter schools when the public 226 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: sector is I guess looking under every cushion and backgroom 227 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 2: cupboard for savings at the. 228 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 3: Moment, because we're funding education for students and this is 229 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: part of the public sector. The idea that somehow students 230 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: choose to go to a charter school are somehow unworthy 231 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: of having their education paid for them, I think as 232 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 3: a criticism from some in the Union movement and some 233 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: from the left that really betrays their real motivations. They 234 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 3: don't care enough for children to think that that money 235 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: is actually being spent on behalf of children. They only 236 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: care about the system, and so they construct this falsehood 237 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 3: that somehow money spent at charter schools, it's not spent 238 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 3: on the children in them. 239 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: And in terms of spending money on kids, I've seen 240 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: a couple of comments of from critics saying that it's 241 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: a slap in the face of kids, for example, with 242 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: complex learning needs finding it quite difficult to access learning 243 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 2: support at the moment. 244 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: What would you say to. 245 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 3: That, Well, it's certainly true we have a system that 246 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 3: is neglecting the needs of many students. The answer to 247 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: that is to accept what we're doing isn't working for 248 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: them and create new options for educators to run schools 249 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 3: differently in their way, with accountability throughout. The alternative is 250 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 3: to have endless cry that if only more money was 251 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 3: put into a broken system it would work again. Well, 252 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 3: the truth is that if you look around the world, 253 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: their education systems has a vast amounts of money and 254 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 3: got terrible results, and education systems I spent far less 255 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 3: money and got good results. You know, the idea that's 256 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 3: putting more money into the same way of doing things 257 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 3: that isn't working particularly advanced students, is the answer is 258 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: not only disproven by the evidence around the world, but 259 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 3: also completely implausible given the government's characters the situation. 260 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: So, in terms of making decisions around these charter schools, 261 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: I know it's independent rights and they go through a 262 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 2: couple of stages and decisions will be made by the 263 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: end of the year. Would you like to see a 264 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 2: real dove list of those schools that are then decided 265 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: to go on to be charter schools. 266 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 3: I think we will see a very diverse list, because 267 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: we have stipulated in government policy that we want to 268 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: see a range of schools with different EQI or Equity 269 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: Index scores. So you will see schools I hope that 270 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 3: are very highly advantage that want to be part of this, 271 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 3: schools that are not if I'm particularly advantage communities. You'll 272 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 3: see schools that have a religious character or state integrated schools. 273 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: You'll see city, and you'll see country, and certainly today 274 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: I've seen expressions of interest from every type of school 275 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 3: and when I've sat down with educators who are a 276 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 3: bit skeptical and said, look, it's on a ten year contract. 277 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: You get your results of your students showing up and achieving, 278 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: which is what you intrinsically want to do anyway as 279 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: an educator, and you'll get your money and you won't 280 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 3: have to be harassed or harangued by different fads driven 281 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 3: onto you by you know, Willinson. You don't have to 282 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 3: play endless bureaucracy trying to get the Ministry of Education 283 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 3: to fix your buildings. You just get on with being educated. 284 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 3: But is this real? It's absolutely real. You can apply 285 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 3: as of midday Thursday this week. 286 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: And lastly, Minister, it's been a few months since we 287 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 2: last spoke and the coalition government has passed the six 288 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 2: month mark. 289 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: How are things going? Are you working well together? 290 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 4: Yeah? 291 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 3: Look, I think from the point of view of our 292 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 3: opponents have been scarily united and effective. I think we've 293 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 3: done a tremendous job of tackling first of all, the 294 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 3: various hospital passes of inflation, government waste and just really 295 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 3: some absurd spending and projects. So you know, we've certainly 296 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 3: done the firefighting and you're now starting to see things 297 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 3: like resource management, you know, transport policy getting rid of 298 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 3: its speed limits. You know, we're forming crazy fire laws. 299 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 3: There's a whole lot of things where we're actually we've 300 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 3: gone through the sort of slash and burn all the 301 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 3: craziness and actually start building some sensible policies of our 302 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 3: own and the clearing and I think those will help 303 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 3: lead an economic recovery that will deal to the real 304 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 3: pressure that New Zealanders are experiencing in the hangover and 305 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: negative momentum of Labour's economic management. 306 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: So you're getting along, well, then no sleepless nights. 307 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 4: No. 308 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 3: Look, I think we've got three people or three partners 309 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: and government three parties sorry, who are completely united by 310 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 3: the hostile circumstances that are facing New Zealanders and a 311 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 3: will to put things right and fix them. And I 312 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 3: think if you look at the announcements coming out day 313 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 3: by day, I think we can say we're doing it. 314 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: Or is it because that Winston Peter's in the PM 315 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: is so often out of the country. 316 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 3: Well you know they say that as of the country. 317 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 3: They make me the aesting Prime Minister and it's one 318 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: ex part I don't mind so much. 319 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Minister, that's it for this episode 320 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's 321 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: stories and extensive news coverage at enziherld dot co dot nz. 322 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 2: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and sound 323 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:32,959 Speaker 2: engineer Patty Fox. 324 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 325 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 326 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another 327 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: look behind the headlines.