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Speaker 1: Heather do for c Ellen.

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Speaker 2: Ninety two is text number standard textpeece apply. I love

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Speaker 2: to know what you think about that. Now, the Reserve

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Speaker 2: Bank is thinking about getting banks, retail banks to set

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Speaker 2: up more ATMs and branches so that everyone in the

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Speaker 2: country has what they considered to be a minimum level

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Speaker 2: of cash services. It could actually mean creating more than

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Speaker 2: a thousand extra ATMs or branches. The Reserve banks Director

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Speaker 2: of Money and Cash is Ian Wolford high Ien. Hello,

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Speaker 2: so what is the minimum level of cash service that

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Speaker 2: you want the banks to provide?

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Speaker 1: Well, we think at the moment what's missing is as

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Speaker 1: a cash depot approach where people can go to no

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Speaker 1: matter which bank you're worth, you can deposit your money

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Speaker 1: into your account, you can withdraw, you can make change.

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Speaker 1: We think the country needs about thirteen hundred of those

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Speaker 1: in addition to what's currently out there now. Banks could

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Speaker 1: choose to rationalize, you know, they could reduce the number

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Speaker 1: of individual bank ATMs and put more into these multi

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Speaker 1: bank ATMs, make it easier for people and make it

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Speaker 1: cheaper to do this. But the key thing is there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of branches and ATMs closed over the

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Speaker 1: last ten years, and we think it's overshot and communities

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Speaker 1: need easier to access to cash closer to home.

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Speaker 2: Now, this access to cash, is that for normal punters

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Speaker 2: like myself or is it for businesses for everyone? The

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Speaker 2: reason I'm asking is that trial that you did in

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Speaker 2: why Pucket our was that just for normal people or

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Speaker 2: was that just for businesses?

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Speaker 1: That was just for retailers, and that was to make

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Speaker 1: it easier for retailers to bank their cash get changed

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Speaker 1: so they could get cash out over the counter. So

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Speaker 1: we were just testing that. But what we've learned partly

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Speaker 1: from those cash trials is this is really what communities need,

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Speaker 1: Like everyone in the community needs this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So would you if banks don't willingly do this

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Speaker 2: and do this of their own volition, would you be

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Speaker 2: able to force them to do it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So what we're saying is, let's start with a

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Speaker 1: voluntary conversation about how to do this, but then we

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Speaker 1: would look to regulate if we're not getting the results

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Speaker 1: that that we think are required.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, Now what is this a broken market? Is

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Speaker 2: the market not working here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, in a sense it is. What we're saying is,

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Speaker 1: you know, this has been left to the private sector

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Speaker 1: for a long time, but actually need some intervention now

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Speaker 1: because now you can understand on some levels banks choosing

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Speaker 1: to close branches that aren't getting used, but that hasn't

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Speaker 1: impact on people's choice, and so this is what we

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Speaker 1: would say as a market failure, and therefore we do

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Speaker 1: need to you know, intervene, insert ourselves a bit and

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Speaker 1: say this is what the community needs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but presumably the reason the banks have shut their

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Speaker 2: branches is because there aren't that many people in that

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Speaker 2: particular area using them, in which case, if there aren't

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Speaker 2: that many people, then the rest of us are going

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Speaker 2: to have to subsidize what few people do use them, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's why we're not really focusing on bank

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Speaker 1: branches because what we understand is people do bank slightly

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Speaker 1: differently now, so they don't necessarily go to the bank

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Speaker 1: to the bank branch in the way that they used to.

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Speaker 1: So we're not really talking about bank branches. We're just

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Speaker 1: talking about making sure people have access to cash.

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Speaker 2: Shorgely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, an ATM where it doesn't matter which bank you branch,

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Speaker 1: which bank you banklid, You walk into one of these

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Speaker 1: and you can deposit and get into your account. You know,

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Speaker 1: people work hard for their money. They want to be

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Speaker 1: able to withdraw it without cost when they want to.

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Speaker 1: So it's getting closer to two communities.

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Speaker 2: I mean, even if it is just an ATM, there

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Speaker 2: will be an infrastructure cost. So what is the cost

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Speaker 2: of doing this?

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Speaker 1: Have you estimated? We think the the cost is about

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Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars a year, right, so that ends up.

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Speaker 2: What twenty bucks per person in this country. That's a

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Speaker 2: lot for the rest of us to have to subsidize,

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Speaker 2: subsidize these people to have access to cash.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it. Well when you say the rest of us

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Speaker 1: about more than eighty percent of people use cash regularly. Actually,

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Speaker 1: some people are quite reliant on cash and using it

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Speaker 1: quite quite heavily. Others use it much less frequently. But

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Speaker 1: we get very clear feedback from New Zealanders that people

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Speaker 1: want the choice, and we've done quite a bit of

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Speaker 1: work on how much this matters to people when it

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Speaker 1: matters a lot to them. So it goes a bit

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Speaker 1: to this point of you know, what should people expect

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Speaker 1: from from their banks? You know banks, people work hard

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Speaker 1: for their money. They've put them in their bank, they

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Speaker 1: want to take it out when and where they want to.

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Speaker 1: Should they have to pay for it should they have

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Speaker 1: to pay for an atm Our starting point is you

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Speaker 1: know your bank is looking after your money, and when

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Speaker 1: you've got your money sitting in your transaction account, banks

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Speaker 1: are actually any interest of that. So it's not like

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Speaker 1: it's a one way street here. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a whole relationship between customers and banks and cash.

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Speaker 1: And we think that well banks have saved money over

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Speaker 1: the years by reducing their footprint and making it harder

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Speaker 1: for people who access cash. There's a conversation to be

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Speaker 1: had about who should pay for what, and we're starting

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Speaker 1: that conversation by saying we think banks ought to be

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Speaker 1: paying for a bit more of this.

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Speaker 2: Ian, thank you, I really appreciate your time. Ian Wilford,

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Speaker 2: Reserve Bank, Director of Money in Cash. Have you got

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Speaker 2: You've got the have you got the song? So that

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Speaker 2: the thing is Heather right when you said this.

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Speaker 1: But people work hard for their money.

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Speaker 2: I mean it just kind of reminds you of that

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Speaker 2: Donna Summer song, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: So people were hard for the money. So people were

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Speaker 1: hard for the money.

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Speaker 2: I've picked Ian as a secret Domor Summers band, Don't

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Speaker 2: you excellent?

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Speaker 1: People were hard for the money.

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Speaker 2: Right they do, and for that reason they deserve access

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Speaker 2: to it.

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