1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Morris Williams and Auckland councilor, former National Party minister and 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Gareth Hugh's director of the Well Being Economy Alliance outside 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Away and former Green MP. High lads. 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: Sure that. 5 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a bit of policy on 6 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,159 Speaker 1: the hoof, isn't it? 7 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 2: Look at you, I'm one of these sort of old, crusty, 8 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: old buggers who've seen so many things come and go. 9 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 2: When I see certain things announced like coming out of 10 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 2: id and I just smile and say, this will never stand. 11 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: This will never stand. National made such a song and 12 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 2: dance about the yut tax and the campaigned up and. 13 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: Down and you know what, Yes, I agree with you. 14 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: But then why is Simon what's doing stuff like this 15 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: because he instructed them? Why? 16 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: Well, look, there's some things in the world I can't explain, 17 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: and that's one of them. 18 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: Gareth, Gareth, you, being from the Green Party, you've always 19 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: got a kind of slightly cock eyed view of tax. 20 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: So tell me what you think of it. 21 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 3: Well, Morris is right. I mean National was really at 22 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 3: risk of being hoisted by their own patad. They made 23 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 3: such a big song that darn't about this. Previously, the 24 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: biggest issue with so many farmers seem to think that 25 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 3: ut exempt from fringe benefit tax, so it's a bit 26 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 3: of a wake up call. Of course, the government was 27 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 3: always going to respond with alacrity on this, and you know, 28 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 3: I think farmers will be pretty happy with it. 29 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: Hey, now, what do you make Gareth of Winston Peter's 30 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: pulling that funding from the Cooks. 31 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 3: It's interesting. I mean it's terrible timing for the government, 32 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 3: with lux and literally meeting she in Beijing at the moment. 33 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 3: You know this is going to dominate the talks, and 34 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 3: there's a perception that Peters could be trying to torpedo 35 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 3: the talks. There's no surprises very much in the American camp. However, 36 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 3: there's the story that this actually started out earlier this month. 37 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 3: It's the Cook Island government themselves who have made it 38 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 3: public again. It's bad time and bad optics. I don't 39 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 3: think it's ideal that New Zealand's linking our aid to 40 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 3: great power politics. It's clear that the Cooks themselves are 41 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 3: pretty upset about this, and the film feels a little 42 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: bit colonial to me, New Zealand playing great power politics 43 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: here with our aid budget. 44 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: Okay, Morris, what do you think, Well, I take the 45 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: analogy of what happened with my kids when they went 46 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: through teenage years and into their twenties. Their attitude was, 47 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: it's my money, I'll do what I want with it. Now, 48 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: can you lend me some? And neces the same with 49 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 2: the Cooks if they want to be independent and go 50 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: away and negotiate all sorts of things with other countries 51 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: and not tell us what they're doing, which they're supposed 52 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 2: to evently in their chart that they sign. Well, Winston's 53 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: doing the right thing. He's saying, well that, look, we 54 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: can't stop you where you go, but that doesn't mean 55 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: we have to be the funder of last resort for 56 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: you anymore. We can just say no. And so they 57 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: have to put that into the equation of the Cooks 58 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: think it was worth losing the what is nineteen point 59 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: eight million they're going to lose. If they think it 60 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: was worth losing that because it may be getting phenomenal 61 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: money back from China, well good on them. They're free 62 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: to go and do what they like. 63 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, if I tend to agree with Morris on this 64 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: because I think that we can take a bit of 65 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: a paternalistic and I feel like that, you know, no 66 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: disrespect to you, but I feel like you might have 67 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: been a bit paternalistic there where our attitude towards small 68 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: and like the Cooks as always Oh well, you know, 69 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: they can kind of behave however they want and we 70 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: just have to kind of sit there and suck it 71 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: up and carry on with the funding. Actually it takes 72 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: two to tango, and it doesn't sound like they've been awesome. 73 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: So isn't it within our rights to pull the money? 74 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: Oh? I think they feel a bit grieve too. I mean, 75 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 3: the Prime min is going to come back to China 76 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 3: presumably signing deals or doing deals. Are we going to 77 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 3: be updating the Cook Island government around that? But you know, 78 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 3: there is a strategic contest in the Pacific. You go 79 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 3: to any Pacific state, China is investing a huge amount. 80 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 3: That's clear to everyone. I just think, you know, if 81 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 3: we want to have our strategic conterest that serve them 82 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: the Pacific, we're best to use carrots, use our special relationship, 83 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: use the people connections, good faith, hones, stealings. You can't 84 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: make friends by pulling out a stick, and I think 85 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: that's the riskers. You know, this could even push the 86 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: Cook Islands more and relationships that will happen. 87 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: Do you think that will really happen given that it 88 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: doesn't what Mark Brown wants doesn't sound like what the 89 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: people want. And twenty million dollars and insignificance when you 90 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: think about the fact that they have they have our passports, 91 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: they have access to the country to live and work in, 92 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: they have our superannuation. Surely that's still a massive carrot there. 93 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: Oh, look, this has to be dealt with, and it 94 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: has to be dealt with well. But if we're doing threats, 95 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 3: if we're pausing aid, you know, there's a risk of 96 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 3: permanently damaging relationships. And look, China can afford a lot 97 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 3: more than New Zealand can. We're best to play to 98 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 3: ours strengths rather than try and be aggressive. 99 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 2: But if they some their nose at us, if they 100 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: thumb their nose at us and so well, damn we're 101 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: going off and doing something with them and we don't care. 102 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: We're supposed to have alerted you or talked it through 103 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: it with you. That's fine. Wait, off you go a 104 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 2: naughty child. Way you go do your own thing, but 105 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 2: don't come calling back to home and saying I want 106 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: some more. They've had two hundred million in the last 107 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: three years for God's sake from us. That's an enormous 108 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 2: amount of money they've had. Well, if they don't want 109 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 2: to thumb their noose at that and say we've got 110 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: a better deal elsewhere, that's fine, but which just means 111 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: we don't have to play their silly game. 112 00:04:54,839 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: All right, we'll take a break. Come back shortly quarter two. Hey, 113 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: really quickly. A hospital in southern Israel has been hit 114 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: by an Iranian missile. It's taking a direct hit. This 115 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: is a hospital in Beersheba. Not good for Israel to 116 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: have that happen, as you can well imagine. Also, I'm 117 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: going to tell you about that age test in just 118 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: a minute. Right now, we've got the huddle back of us, 119 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: Morris Williamson and Gareth Hughes. Now, Gareth, how would you 120 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: feel about us getting rid of regional government? 121 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm not a fan. I think we should be 122 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 3: boosting local government. We've got one of the most centralized 123 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,119 Speaker 3: government systems in the world. Central government gets about ninety 124 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 3: one percent of the revenue. Local government gets about nine percent. 125 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 3: I think that's out of whack, But I thing he's 126 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: what he's talking about. Is should we see more amalgamations. 127 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: Definitely open to that. I think we've got way too 128 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 3: many councils duplicating way too many things. 129 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: What do you think, Marris, Oh, look absolutely, Look we've 130 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: got the Hiranui District Council, the Apotoqui District council sits 131 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: at eight thousand ratepayers or something in each of them. 132 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: If you think back a few years long before you 133 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 2: two were around, but Auckland when I was young, had 134 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 2: thirty two councils. You know, there was the Newmarket Borough Council, 135 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,679 Speaker 2: there was the Mount Albert Borough Council, the Mount Edenborough 136 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: Council now Michael Bassett in nineteen eighty nine merged them 137 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 2: into seven. It was a good start and in the 138 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 2: right direction, and in twenty ten we moved to more 139 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 2: than to one. I would have thought that what Shane 140 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 2: is talking about is let's get rid of all of 141 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: the little fragmentation. And they had a reason back then 142 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: many years ago, because communications were appalling. You had to 143 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: send a letter and it had to be delivered. Now 144 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: they can be online with screen showing data, they can 145 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: be in communications while they're on the road talking. I 146 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: think we've got far, far too many local government entities 147 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: and the more we did some amalgamations right across the board, 148 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 2: the whole of the South part of Wellington with the 149 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: Wire Rapper and Wellington should all be just one council in. 150 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: My view, I mean, because Gareth, don't we have too 151 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: few people really to have the number of councils that 152 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: we have. 153 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a genuine question. And you know, 154 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 3: I live in Welling and I would support greater amalgamation 155 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: in the region. We've got way too much duplication happening. 156 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 3: But I wonder what Shane Jones. You know, I was 157 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: at the event last night where he gave these remarks. 158 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: He's all talk. 159 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 3: Oh he's no shrinking violent, that's for sure, and you 160 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 3: know you could see he was in competition with David 161 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: to get the headline. 162 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: I said this to her husband this morning. When I 163 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: read it, I said, oh, yeah, but it's from Shane. 164 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: What have they actually achieved? What has New Zealanders all 165 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: blah blah? But they actually don't do anything when they're 166 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: in government, do they. 167 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: Well? 168 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: And look, I'm not Shane's biggest fan, but he did 169 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 3: talk about the idea of central government sharing some more 170 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 3: GST revenue with local government. I absolutely support that, but 171 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 3: they didn't put that in their confidence and agreement with 172 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: the government. You know, they talk about it, they haven't 173 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 3: achieved it, and hopefully that is. 174 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: But if you think about it, the exact opposite will 175 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: still give you the outcome. Instead of going and getting 176 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: rid of the regional councils and leaving a whole lot 177 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: of tin bot little rotten boroughs, merge them up all 178 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: across I reckon thirty and or forteen councils across the 179 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: entire country. We're only five million people. Yeah, that's a 180 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: modest city anywhere else in the world. Our whole country 181 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: is a lot of city. 182 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: Auckland has done the amalgamation. But now we've got all 183 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: the little wards, haven't we with like five people voting 184 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: for somebody Morris, can't we get rid of all those wards? 185 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: Just leave you fellows in charge accouncil. 186 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: Well, my my ward's bigger. Listen to this, My howick 187 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: ward that I am standing for is bigger population than 188 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: any other city in New Zealand other than Wellington and 189 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: christ Church. We're bigger than Toweronger, We're bigger than Hamilton, 190 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 2: we're bigger than Nelson. Any city you name, howick Ward 191 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: where there's only two counselors, is bigger than them. 192 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: Jason. That says a lot, doesn't it. Hey, guys, thank 193 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: you very much, really appreciated Morris, Williamson and Garrethus a 194 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 1: huddle sitting I was meant and getting rid of the 195 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: ward councils. You know those guys you don't even know, 196 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: you don't even know that they're sitting under the council. 197 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: It's like five people the local boards. Thank you, thank 198 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: you ants. That's the word I'm looking for. The local 199 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: boards and needs to get rid of them because some 200 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: really interesting people on those local boards drawing a salary 201 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: from us doing nothing. Nine Away from six. 202 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 203 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: News Talk Set B from four pm weekdays, or follow 204 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.