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Speaker 1: Gilder.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Tensions between

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Speaker 2: Maldidom and the coalition government have been bubbling since the

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Speaker 2: latter was sworn.

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Speaker 1: In last year.

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Speaker 2: Outrage over the Treaty Principal's Bill and cuts to services

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Speaker 2: for malty has seen multiple protests, most recently the khar

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Speaker 2: Koi rally across the Mottu on Budget Day. That same

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Speaker 2: protest saw this animosity take a new angle, went to Patsi.

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Speaker 2: Maldy issued a declaration of political independence and called for

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Speaker 2: a separate Moldi Parliament. So how serious are these calls

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Speaker 2: and is there any path back from the precipice. Today

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Speaker 2: on the Front Page, we discussed the details behind the

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Speaker 2: tension with doctor Carwan Joe, co editor of the Malti

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Speaker 2: Law Review and Honorary Adjunct Professor in Maldi Studies at Victoria.

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Speaker 1: University of Wellington.

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Speaker 2: First off, Cawen, we've heard a lot about tataritio y

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Speaker 2: Tanngi this year and lots of different interpretations of it.

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Speaker 1: How would you define it well?

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Speaker 3: So for me to be to your waite, tangy is

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Speaker 3: the Maori text of the treaty, and for me, that's

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Speaker 3: really the authoritative text because that's the text which all

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Speaker 3: the rangatira who signed find And so when we're talking

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Speaker 3: about t Tarditi, we're talking about that agreement signed in

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Speaker 3: eighteen forty between Maori leaders rang A Tita and the

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Speaker 3: British Crown.

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Speaker 2: On the other side, there are differences in meaning between

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Speaker 2: the English and Malti versions of the treaty, and interpretations

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Speaker 2: on what they actually mean have differed throughout history. Is

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Speaker 2: there a lot of debate over what those interpretations are.

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Speaker 3: There has been some significant debate around the meaning interpretation

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Speaker 3: of the English text and the Trio text and what

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Speaker 3: they might mean in relation to one another. So the

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Speaker 3: treaties a kind of short document. There's only three written articles.

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Speaker 3: There's often a fourth art and we talk about as

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Speaker 3: being part of the agreement that was formed on the.

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Speaker 4: Sixth of February and forty.

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Speaker 3: The first article is really about the authority which is

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Speaker 3: being granted to the British Crown in the Trio text

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Speaker 3: that's talked about as Karwanatunga. And from the record that

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Speaker 3: we have around the debates that took place, it seems

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Speaker 3: pretty clear that that karawana tanga, that authority was intended

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Speaker 3: to be authority over the settler population who was here.

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Speaker 3: So for the British crown to have authority over its

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Speaker 3: own people who were here in Alta or and that

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Speaker 3: seems consistent with what then guaranteed and Article two of

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Speaker 3: Tetaviti and the Trio text, what's guaranteed is rang a

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Speaker 3: teta tanga, which the base word is rang a tetras

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Speaker 3: or chief leader, rang.

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Speaker 4: A teta tanga.

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Speaker 3: It's all those things to do with the chief or

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Speaker 3: teta tanga often described as the absolute chiefly authority. So

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Speaker 3: that's being guaranteed to Maudi the English text in those

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Speaker 3: two articles. What's being granted to the British crown the

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Speaker 3: term that's used as sovereignty. And you know, when we

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Speaker 3: think about sovereignty today, we think about it as often

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Speaker 3: being a kind of exclusive kind of authority, and that

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Speaker 3: would be inconsistent with a guarantee of tetatanga an Article two.

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Speaker 3: But actually there's been a lot of work done, particularly

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Speaker 3: by Leacher, who's written a significant book around the English

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Speaker 3: text of the treaty, who says, actually, when you look

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Speaker 3: at the correspondence that was taking place amongst colonial officials

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Speaker 3: and how they were understanding this term sovereignty at the time.

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Speaker 3: It seems as though the Western idea of sovereignty doesn't

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Speaker 3: really harden into an absolute and exclusive form of authority

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Speaker 3: until a bit later in the nineteenth century or around

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Speaker 3: the middle of the nineteenth century. So you know, according

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Speaker 3: to New pleicture, you look at the English text what

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Speaker 3: people were saying at the time, you can read that

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Speaker 3: is still allowing for another form of authority to exist

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Speaker 3: at the same time. So that does allow for Crown

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Speaker 3: to exercise their authority, Maui to continue to exercise the authority.

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Speaker 2: A lot of tensions we've seen, especially this year, started

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Speaker 2: with the act Party's Treaty Principles Bill, and they say

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Speaker 2: that's to define what those principles are in the treaty.

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Speaker 2: It wants a treaty to apply to all New Zealanders,

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Speaker 2: while some Maori leaders say such changes would amount to

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Speaker 2: a modern day confiscation of treaty.

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Speaker 1: Right, who is right here? What do you make of

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Speaker 1: these arguments?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's pretty clear that the treaty was

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Speaker 3: signed between Maudi and the British Crown, so where the

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Speaker 3: exchanges between those rights that are guaranteed by the Crown

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Speaker 3: and those rights that Maoria allowing the Crown to exercise,

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Speaker 3: those are not guarantees to all New Zealanders, are guarantees

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Speaker 3: to the parties, to Tatitati.

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Speaker 4: So, Marii Ewe and hapu So.

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Speaker 3: For me, one of the fundamental problems about the way

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Speaker 3: in which the proposed Act Party policy, which would underpin

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Speaker 3: the proposed Treaty Principles Bill, is that it completely erases

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Speaker 3: Maori from Tetriti, and that's obviously completely detached from the

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Speaker 3: reality of what Tetarti is and who it was a

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Speaker 3: treaty between.

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Speaker 5: It really is a question of what does our founding

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Speaker 5: document mean? Does it mean that we are divided into

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Speaker 5: tongue of the Fellower and tongue of Ta Tarti, two

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Speaker 5: people's apart, or does it mean that we are citizens

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Speaker 5: of New Zealand with the same rights and duties or

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Speaker 5: nati kangakato rita tahi, as the treaty itself says.

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Speaker 2: Would I be right in saying that saying all New

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Speaker 2: Zealanders would be akin to saying all lives matter?

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Speaker 1: In reference to the Black lives matter protests.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's quite a good analogy, because you're

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Speaker 3: absolutely right in terms of the government has responsibility for

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Speaker 3: all New Zealanders, and what Tetariti does is think about, well,

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Speaker 3: what are the particular ways in which the Crown has

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Speaker 3: guaranteed to respect Maori authority amongst that So to erase

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Speaker 3: Maori from the treaty principles and from Tetariti, that is

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Speaker 3: kind of the equivalent of taking the focus off where

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Speaker 3: the issues really.

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Speaker 2: Sit in terms of Tatarrito or White Tongy and the

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Speaker 2: debate around this bill in particular, what do you think

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Speaker 2: people fear from it from both sides?

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Speaker 4: I guess yes, So certainly.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I'm concerned about, and I

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Speaker 3: hear a lot of Maori talking about, is the fact

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Speaker 3: that you know, we've had this mechanism the principles of

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Speaker 3: the Treaty that's been used by the White Tungu Tribunal

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Speaker 3: in legislation and so being implied in the courts for

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Speaker 3: decades now, for fifty years in terms of the White

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Speaker 3: Tangy Tribunal, and we've seen it being used in the

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Speaker 3: courts for almost as long as that, and it's already

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Speaker 3: a kind of compromise on what's in Tetillti itself. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't give full expression to in tongue up because it

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Speaker 3: all sits within a framework which is set by the Crown,

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Speaker 3: but even within that, it has meant it's been a

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Speaker 3: mechanism which has been used to enable to make some

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Speaker 3: really important gains for Maori in terms of whether it's

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Speaker 3: protection of teri or Maori, or recognition of the historical

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Speaker 3: wrongs that have occurred and try and find ways to

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Speaker 3: acknowledge those and provide some redress, or simply as a

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Speaker 3: mechanism that ensures that Maori have input in participation into

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Speaker 3: matters which have an impact on us. So the concern

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Speaker 3: for many Maori is that that mechanism will be taken away,

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Speaker 3: that the gains that we have made over decades thought

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Speaker 3: over decades will be lost, that it will have a

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Speaker 3: detrimental effect on it, or Maori will have a detrimental

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Speaker 3: effect on the health and well being of milder communities

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Speaker 3: in many other ways, because the principles of the treaty

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Speaker 3: has been a key mechanism which has supported Maori to

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Speaker 3: have input and exercise some level of control leadership in

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Speaker 3: those spaces for people on the other side of the debate,

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Speaker 3: I know, the reason why acts say that they're opposing

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Speaker 3: this Principle's Bill is because they're concerned that Parliament hasn't

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Speaker 3: had an opportunity to define these It's been left to

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Speaker 3: the courts and the tribunal. And that's true, although it

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Speaker 3: is Parliament that has set up that framework and has

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Speaker 3: made a decision that the application of the principles.

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Speaker 4: Ought to be left to be worked.

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Speaker 3: Through in specific circumstances. And that's not an unusual thing

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Speaker 3: to do. And also we do have quite a lot

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Speaker 3: of certainty now around what treaty principles are or how

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Speaker 3: a they're going to be applied, because we've got forty

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Speaker 3: or five years of jurisprudence case law which talks about that.

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Speaker 3: So you know, one of the other concerns about this

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Speaker 3: bill would be that all of that gets disrupted and

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Speaker 3: unsettled if this phrase the principles of the Treaty, if

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Speaker 3: its interpretation has changed in this fundamental way that is

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Speaker 3: being proposed. I guess the other concern that many people have,

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Speaker 3: no matter what their kind of view about the principles themselves,

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Speaker 3: is that having a referendum on this issue is not

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Speaker 3: going to be a way in which to engage in

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Speaker 3: any kind of constructive conversation about the meaning of tetarditi

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Speaker 3: or its principles, or how we ought to relate to

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Speaker 3: each other, or what the roles of karawanatungue to tongue.

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Speaker 4: Might look like.

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Speaker 3: A referendum isn't a useful way to try and conduct

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Speaker 3: a conversation like that, particularly without the grind of groundwork

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Speaker 3: of making sure that there's good information around about what

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Speaker 3: tatitity is, what it sees, what the principles are, and

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Speaker 3: how they've already been interpreted. And so a lot of

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Speaker 3: people I think would be rightly concerned about the kind

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Speaker 3: of impact the social disruption that the visisness that are

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Speaker 3: referendum on this topic would bring without any real benefit.

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Speaker 2: We've seen mobilize multiple times since this government was elected

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Speaker 2: last year. How significant is this action?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's very significant because the numbers have

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Speaker 3: been extremely large and there's been a real sense, I

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Speaker 3: think of Maori being quite united in the face of

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Speaker 3: the many issues that the government has progressing, which are

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Speaker 3: already designed to roll back gains made in the last

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Speaker 3: twenty thirty years.

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Speaker 4: So for many Maldi and I include myself in this, that.

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Speaker 3: Does feel like a real attack by the government on

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Speaker 3: all aspects of our lives. And what I think we've

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Speaker 3: seen through these actions is how really united Maria. And

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Speaker 3: this was I think a really strong sense that I

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Speaker 3: got from being at White Tangy around the White Tangy

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Speaker 3: Day celebrations was huge numbers there, record turnout and lots

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Speaker 3: of anger, yes at the government, but actually a really

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Speaker 3: positive sense about being united and resisting this. And also

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Speaker 3: at all of these activations as they've been called, there's

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Speaker 3: been a really strong presence of Pakier non Marii as

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Speaker 3: well in support and participating and choosing to be quite

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Speaker 3: active in that support in a way in which maybe

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Speaker 3: in previous times we've seen quite a lot of passive

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Speaker 3: support from amongst the park Our community. Now I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, there's a real sense that in order to

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Speaker 3: demonstrate that this is not something that the majority of

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Speaker 3: parker want, I seen many non Maori coming out to

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Speaker 3: take active steps to oppose what the governments is doing.

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Speaker 2: Well, just last week we saw another large protest across

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Speaker 2: the country, thousands protesting the government's policies.

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Speaker 1: Towards Maori.

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Speaker 2: Protesting against how this government has totally failed, totally failed,

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Speaker 2: not just Mariu, but anyone struggling, anyone down at the bottom.

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Speaker 6: Everything that the government is doing is against Mali and

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Speaker 6: we are not standing for it.

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Speaker 2: And it was there that Tepati Mali declared its plans

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Speaker 2: for a declaration of political independence and to establish a

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Speaker 2: Maori parliament. Firstly, what does that declaration of independence actually

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Speaker 2: mean to you?

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen the text really of what the Maori

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Speaker 3: Party have proposed there, but certainly the kind of sense

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Speaker 3: of declaring political independence is something which Maori have done

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Speaker 3: since Tatariti, since eighteen forty.

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Speaker 4: But even before that.

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Speaker 3: One of the important precursors of Tatariti itself was the

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Speaker 3: eighteen thirty five Declaration of Independence Hakaputanga, which made it

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Speaker 3: very clear that those Unga Teta who signed they were

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Speaker 3: making a statement the Declarations to the rest of the

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Speaker 3: world saying that New Zealand is.

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Speaker 4: An independent state.

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Speaker 3: He Fenota is the term they use, which I think

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Speaker 3: is a really powerful term. New Zealand's independent and who

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Speaker 3: exercises authority here? It's us that Unga Teta and nobody

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Speaker 3: else and so I think that's an important statement of independence.

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Speaker 3: It's a declaration of independence, is the documents called. And

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Speaker 3: it's part of the reason why actually Tetti becomes so

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Speaker 3: important because the British Crown has been involved in encouraging

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Speaker 3: Mali to sign this declaration of independence to put off

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Speaker 3: other colonial powers. And then when the crown itself decides

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Speaker 3: it wants to exercise some authority here, well it has

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Speaker 3: to do that via some diplomatic agreement, via a treaty,

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Speaker 3: because there's already been the statement that nobody else exercised

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Speaker 3: authority here except Maori. Well, Tetariti says, actually will create

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Speaker 3: the space for Kawana tanga with a crown to exercise

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Speaker 3: authority over its own people who are here, and we

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Speaker 3: will have Maori authority continuing, but the crown also exercising

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Speaker 3: its own authority here as well. And so those statements

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Speaker 3: of independence, as I say, they predate Tatarriiti and have

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Speaker 3: continued on. And you know, even the recognition of Ta

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Speaker 3: Tanga in Tatariti itself as a real statement of continuing

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Speaker 3: Maori political authority and independence, and that's what the relationship

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Speaker 3: in Tatariti was supposed to reflect.

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Speaker 2: So this declaration from Tepatimuri. Could it just be a

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Speaker 2: show of defiance against this government or do you actually

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Speaker 2: think ta Patimuri actually wanted a physical separate parliament.

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Speaker 3: Well, they have talked about having a separate parliament, and

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Speaker 3: some of the discussion that we had at the National

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Speaker 3: Hui that was held at wilmahum what I last Friday

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Speaker 3: was sort of thinking about models of ways in which

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Speaker 3: there might be something like a Maori parliament. Again, there

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Speaker 3: have been Maori parliaments in the past as well, so

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Speaker 3: this is not something new, But a lot of the

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Speaker 3: discussion too on Friday focused around thinking about, well, if

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Speaker 3: Titi talks about these two spheres of authority, this Maori

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Speaker 3: authority as to not unger Teta Tanga and the authority

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Speaker 3: of the crown as kawana tanga, and we need to

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Speaker 3: think about how those two spheres are going to relate

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Speaker 3: to each other. And part of thinking about that is

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Speaker 3: thinking about, well, how do we want that nor unger

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Speaker 3: teta tanga sphere to look, How would we exercise Maori independence,

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Speaker 3: What kind of structure or institution would we have on

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Speaker 3: that side? And some of the conversation on Friday was

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Speaker 3: saying well, actually we ought not to be thinking about

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Speaker 3: a parliament that just kind of looks like the house

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Speaker 3: the representatives we have now, but actually thinking about well,

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Speaker 3: how do we reflect the kind of authority and autonomy

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Speaker 3: of Ewe and Hapu and maybe even far Noo and

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Speaker 3: thinking about that to create a someone referred to it

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Speaker 3: as a House of unity rather than a house of

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Speaker 3: parliament that might organize that tanga sphere, that sphere of

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Speaker 3: Maori authority, this.

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Speaker 2: Idea that Tipati Maori have brought forward and are working on.

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Speaker 2: Do you have any fears it's creating an us in

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Speaker 2: them kind of scenario in New Zealand.

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Speaker 3: Well, so, one of the things when we look at Tatariti,

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Speaker 3: we can see that are these two spheres of authority

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Speaker 3: that are recognized, this authority of Karwanatanga, of the crown,

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Speaker 3: authority of the tang of Maori. What Tetariti does is

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Speaker 3: put those into a relationship with one another and say

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Speaker 3: that we're going to coexist here in Alto or these

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Speaker 3: two spheres of authority, and we're going to relate to

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Speaker 3: each other. There's going to be a relationship and there's

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Speaker 3: a partnership that's set out in Tatariti.

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Speaker 4: That's what Tetariti talks about.

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Speaker 3: But what that partnership does also require and fair is

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Speaker 3: the kind of ongoing distinctiveness of those two spheres of authority,

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Speaker 3: because if one is absorbed by the other, then there's

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Speaker 3: no more relationship. It's just a kind of assimilation. And

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Speaker 3: so I don't think there's anything to fear from the

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Speaker 3: idea that we can have a relationship which recognizes that

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Speaker 3: difference and acknowledges that distinctiveness in these distinctive forms of

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Speaker 3: political authority that go along with that. In fact, I

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Speaker 3: think it's a really important mechanism one that we can

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Speaker 3: think about how we can share with other places around

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Speaker 3: the world, to think about how you can manage difference

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Speaker 3: and accommodate difference and enter into relationships while maintaining distinctive

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Speaker 3: ways of doing things within your own sphere of authority

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Speaker 3: or influence.

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Speaker 4: And it's also a.

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Speaker 3: Way in which you can better engage with all kinds

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Speaker 3: of different distinctive communities of interest and authority and influence

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 1: Now correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: Just from our conversation now, my interpretation of what we've

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Speaker 2: spoken about is that when say Rahwiti Wa Titi calls

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Speaker 2: the coalition government a Parkiha government, and that's despite the

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Speaker 2: fact that there are eight od nps and two leaders

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Speaker 2: of the opposition that are in fact Maldi.

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Speaker 1: He's not saying it literally.

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Speaker 2: He might be saying it or interpreting it as it

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Speaker 2: is a Pakihar government because it is a Parki Heart institution.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think the other important thing to

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Speaker 3: remember is that to party Maori is those MP's they

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Speaker 3: sit within that park Out institution at the moment as well.

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Speaker 3: So yes, it's the institution that you'd be referring to

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Speaker 3: and saying it's a park institution, even though there might

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Speaker 3: be Mali within that. It's organized in a way and

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Speaker 3: structures power in a way that comes from the kind

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Speaker 3: of Westminster tradition. You know, all communities always develop legal

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Speaker 3: systems and rules of organizing themselves and governing themselves, and

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Speaker 3: they all come out of particular history, both cultural history,

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Speaker 3: but social and environmental histories as well all shape those

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Speaker 3: kind of things. And we have a kind of Westminster

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Speaker 3: style parliament, So it comes from that kind of park

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Speaker 3: Our tradition and perhaps a European tradition of how that

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Speaker 3: might be organized, whereas what might be thinking about in

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Speaker 3: terms of we can call it a Malori parliament, but

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Speaker 3: I think useful to get away from thinking about it

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Speaker 3: as a parliament, thinking about a house of unity and

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Speaker 3: what that might look like, and what Maori communities wants

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Speaker 3: that House of unity to look like, how to organize

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Speaker 3: the Tenaea Tannga sphere in a way that can engage

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Speaker 3: appropriately and effectively with the Kawana Tannga sphere.

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Speaker 2: In terms of explaining this to the general public, I

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Speaker 2: guess because there's Winston Peters calling to Pati Maori a

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Speaker 2: party of radical extremists and that they're trying to stoke

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Speaker 2: this racial division.

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Speaker 4: I heard from the Murray Party.

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Speaker 6: We've heard from a party of radical extremists.

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Speaker 2: And then you've got Tipati Maori bringing up apartheid and

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Speaker 2: calling out a Parkiha government.

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Speaker 6: What this budget tells us is that Marty don't matter.

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Speaker 2: So how do we explain or have a conversation with

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Speaker 2: everybody about what is really meant?

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Speaker 3: Well, So partly it does come down to things like

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Speaker 3: ensuring that throughout our education system we have good information

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Speaker 3: around New Zealand history and what's happened, but also other

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Speaker 3: kinds of opportunities for people to discuss these issues as well.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, one of the things that Wanna

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Speaker 3: Jackson was really involved with was called the Martiqui Mayalta

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Speaker 3: or was the Working Group on Constitutional Transformation, which first

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Speaker 3: of all had a whole lot of meetings with different

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Speaker 3: kinds of MARDI groups around the country over a period

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Speaker 3: of three years to talk about Malori constitutional aspiration. But

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Speaker 3: then the next phase of that work that MIANA was

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Speaker 3: engaging and was saying, well, okay, here's the discussion that

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Speaker 3: we've had with MALDI. Let's take this to other parts

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Speaker 3: of the New Zealand community and see what are your

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Speaker 3: views on this, How do you think about this? Here

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Speaker 3: are our reasons why we've had this conversation, how this

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Speaker 3: is where these ideas for constitutional change have come out of.

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Speaker 4: And so it's really about ensuring that.

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Speaker 3: There's good information available and the kinds of forums that

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Speaker 3: allow people to have discussion. And that's why I think

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Speaker 3: it's problematic about the proposed referendum is that it's not

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Speaker 3: conducive to having useful discussion that draws out and teases

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Speaker 3: out information. It puts people into a very positional stance.

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Speaker 3: But also what we've seen already from the act Party's

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Speaker 3: website around treaty principles is that there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: misinformation that they are promoting around what t says and does.

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Speaker 3: So it's about trying to think about how we provide

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Speaker 3: those spaces for good information, for constructive and caliborative discussion,

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Speaker 3: because I mean, that's really what Teteriti itself talks about.

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Speaker 3: Teterriti provides a framework for the engagement of those two

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Speaker 3: spheres of authorities in constructive and collaborative conversation.

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Speaker 2: Do you think the comments and vitriol from both sides

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Speaker 2: of the political spectrum are doing damage to the conversation

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Speaker 2: as a whole?

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Speaker 1: And I'm talking about everyone here.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about Winston Peters calling out Tabutti Malti for

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Speaker 2: racial division. I'm talking about Tabutti Maldi calling the government racist.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that's all stoking flames rather than promoting conversation.

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Speaker 1: I guess yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I do think that the nature of our

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Speaker 3: Parliament at the moment is not really set up to

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Speaker 3: be a place for good conversation, particularly in the kind.

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Speaker 4: Of theatrics in the House itself.

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Speaker 3: There may be some opportunities through other mechanisms of parliament,

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Speaker 3: through select committee processes, where those provide better spaces for

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Speaker 3: encouraging those conversations. And so I do think a lot

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Speaker 3: of the rhetoric about a whole range of issues in

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Speaker 3: our parliament is not really very helpful, doesn't take us

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Speaker 3: very far. I do think that there has to be

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Speaker 3: the ability to call out racist behavior and policies as well.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things that we've seen with the

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Speaker 3: policy program of this government is that there have been

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Speaker 3: a number of things which have been directly aimed at

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Speaker 3: reducing Maori representation, at measures which we know will have

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Speaker 3: detrimental effect on Maori health. For example, in the case

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Speaker 3: of the disestablishment of the Maori Health Authority, the government

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Speaker 3: doesn't even have an alternative approach. It simply wants to

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Speaker 3: go back to largely the situation we had before the

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Speaker 3: Maori Health Authority, which we know had a disproportionate impact

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Speaker 3: on Maori health. And so I think there does need

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Speaker 3: to be an opportunity to actually point those things out

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Speaker 3: and say that you know, those impacts are going to

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Speaker 3: have an impact on.

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Speaker 4: Maldi as a population, and if.

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Speaker 3: You know that and you're still going ahead and doing it, then,

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Speaker 3: I think that does demonstrate that it's a racist policy.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Cowen.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at enzed Herald dot co dot z. The Front Page

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Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Patty Fox.

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Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look

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Speaker 2: behind the headlines.