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Speaker 1: The Australian fugitive Dezzy Freeman has been shot dead by

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Speaker 1: police after seven months on the run. He was shot

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Speaker 1: on a property in northeast Victoria where he was apparently

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Speaker 1: sheltering in something that looked like a shipping container.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Harry Hobbs is an Associate professor at the Faculty

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Speaker 1: of Law and Justice at uns W Sydney and a

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Speaker 1: sovereign citizen expert and with us Hi Harry.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I think to Homie, was it always.

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Speaker 1: Going to end this way?

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Speaker 2: I think every person who engages in civil or behavior

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Speaker 2: claims to be a sovereign citizen, it always into the

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Speaker 2: same way, which is legal defeat, family and friendship, relationships deteriorated,

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Speaker 2: just difficult environments. Was it always going to end up

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Speaker 2: in Freeman's death? Not sure he could have been arrested,

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Speaker 2: but certainly this is consistent with what I expected to happen.

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Speaker 1: What do you think this is going to do to

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Speaker 1: the sovereign citizen movement?

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Speaker 2: When Dessy Freeman allegedly killed those two police officers last year,

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Speaker 2: we saw some people online who were engaged in this behavior,

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Speaker 2: who are civil or adherents a craft and narrative, A

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Speaker 2: conspiratoral narrative around the initial killing. I expect the same

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Speaker 2: thing will happen here. People engage in this behavior of

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Speaker 2: these ideologies will craft a narrative that says that the

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Speaker 2: state has acted in a tyrannical form in order to

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Speaker 2: kill Eddie Freeman. They won't see it as a legitimate

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Speaker 2: police operation to to obtain a double acutable murderer, but

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Speaker 2: they'll see it as evidence of corruption.

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Speaker 1: Now, look, Ari, you know more than me. But the

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Speaker 1: perception that I have is that this is something that

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Speaker 1: was really born out of COVID and really spiked afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Is the further we get away from COVID, are we say,

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Speaker 1: starting to see the appeal of the stuff wayne it all?

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Speaker 2: It's hard to say. There's not a lot of great

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Speaker 2: data around why people get involved in this or how

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Speaker 2: many people get involved in it. What we do know

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Speaker 2: is that people, the vast majority of people get interested

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Speaker 2: in this because they're dealing with the practical problem. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they're the rates. Notice they've got a potential traffic offense,

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Speaker 2: and they're thinking, I can't afford to pay this to

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Speaker 2: live my life. I can't afford to this. They look

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Speaker 2: online saying how can I get out of this this ticket?

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Speaker 2: How can I get out of this problem I have?

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Speaker 2: They find someone online and says you can be fine

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Speaker 2: out of dollars and I'll make sure you never have

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Speaker 2: to pay your counsel ever again. And so it's someone

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Speaker 2: who's in a practical problem looking for a solution and

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Speaker 2: they find someone telling them selling them snake oil, and

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, they buy it to that point. And

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Speaker 2: so wherever there's costlers in crisis, wherever there's sort of

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Speaker 2: structural crises like a pandemic, like a global financial crisis,

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Speaker 2: like an oil shock, you'll find people looking for an

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Speaker 2: eaty solution.

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Speaker 1: Harry, it's good to talk to you. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: your time, mate. This is Harry Hobbes, Associate Professor and

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Speaker 1: the Faculty of Law and Justice at UNSW Sydney and

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Speaker 1: the Sovereign Citizen Expert.

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Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to

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Speaker 2: news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow

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Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.