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Speaker 1: Time for a catch up with one of our old mates.

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Speaker 1: John Grishap was last we us on a project where

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Speaker 1: he helped people wrongly convicted that you may remember. Now

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Speaker 1: he's back in the world of fiction. And another first

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Speaker 1: days in the business, this time of a who Done It?

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Speaker 1: This is the Widow it's out now and John Grisham's

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Speaker 1: with us morning.

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Speaker 2: Happy to be here mate, good seeing you again and.

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Speaker 1: To you too. And I don't want to make it

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Speaker 1: too personal, but last time we talked, you were heading

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Speaker 1: towards a big birthday and you said, well, maybe it'll happen,

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Speaker 1: maybe it won't. My wife will put it on old

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Speaker 1: turn up whatever. Did anything happen?

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Speaker 2: No, we had a fancy dinner with about twenty friends

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Speaker 2: and it was low key and most folks behaved and

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Speaker 2: we had good food and good wine. So I turned seventy.

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Speaker 1: Well what more can you ask in life? Are you

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Speaker 1: grateful in moments like that? Given all your success?

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Speaker 2: I'm grateful every day. Every day is another blessing. You're

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Speaker 2: lucky to be here. You know, when you turn seventy,

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Speaker 2: you realize you're getting older, but you also sadly realize

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Speaker 2: you're losing so many people along the way and it's

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Speaker 2: just thankful for being here man today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you look healthy and well.

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Speaker 2: Well, so far, so good. So do you.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the widow? And so I was watching

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Speaker 1: one of the interviews you did on the American networks.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize this. You start at the end. Is

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Speaker 1: that how it works? You've got your conclusion before you

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Speaker 1: go back.

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Speaker 2: Almost always. I learned the hard ware years ago with

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Speaker 2: a book. Asked my first novel. I wasn't sure how

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Speaker 2: to end the book, And so you keep writing and

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Speaker 2: you can't get to the end, and you box yourself

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Speaker 2: on a corner, and writers do it all the time.

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm not going to waste time like that.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to know the ending when I start. And

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Speaker 2: if you know the ending is hard to get lost.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you had an ending and you wrote the story,

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Speaker 1: but then your wife comes in, your publishers coming. I

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Speaker 1: also saw, now I've heard two stories here. You had

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Speaker 1: an ending you liked, but then your wife said you

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Speaker 1: didn't like it. But then I saw you say I

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Speaker 1: had an ending I wasn't too sure about, and my

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Speaker 1: wife said she didn't like it.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how much I liked it was it

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Speaker 2: was risky. A few times I've done endings that are

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Speaker 2: pretty risky. It's not what the reader expects, which I

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Speaker 2: kind of like, but it's said, you know, this one

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Speaker 2: was just just didn't work. And my wife said, hey, buddy,

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Speaker 2: this is not gonna work. And I listened to her.

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Speaker 1: Okay, do you listen to her because she knows what

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Speaker 1: she's talking about, or she's always right, or you need

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Speaker 1: some sort of second opinion from the publisher, or.

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Speaker 2: I would never say she's always right. You can't do

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Speaker 2: it in a happy marriage. You can you can never

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Speaker 2: admit that the other person's always right. She's usually right right.

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Speaker 2: And so she didn't like the ending. I sent it

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Speaker 2: to my publisher and to my editor in New York

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Speaker 2: and they agreed, and it went. All three of them

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Speaker 2: line up against me. I can't argue, So I just

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Speaker 2: changed the ending. I kept writing. I wrote twenty five

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Speaker 2: thousand more words in the month of January under the

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Speaker 2: gun to get it finished, and it worked out fine.

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Speaker 1: So okay, so two parts out of that when somebody said,

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Speaker 1: given who you are, I don't like that, is that

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Speaker 1: is that popping an ego?

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Speaker 2: No, I still listen to people I think it's important

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Speaker 2: to listen to people you trust. I don't care where

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Speaker 2: you are in life. You never get too big to

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Speaker 2: where you you don't listen to people you trust. And

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Speaker 2: I've always listened to my wife, my agent, and my editor,

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Speaker 2: and several times, not just this, but a lot of things,

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Speaker 2: a lot of stories. I write a lot of op

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Speaker 2: ed pieces, a lot of magazine articles, and my wife

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Speaker 2: always reads them first, and she always has comments. But

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Speaker 2: you know, I value that input. And I tell young

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Speaker 2: writers you got to have somebody. You gotta have a

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Speaker 2: reader you trust, somebody who loves you and wants to

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Speaker 2: see you succeed, but who'll be brutally honest with you.

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Speaker 2: You got to have that in life.

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Speaker 1: And the second part of that question, when they said it,

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Speaker 1: did you see it? Or did it take some time?

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Speaker 2: Uh? You know what I got. I was under the gun,

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Speaker 2: which is good when you write suspense. It's it's best

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Speaker 2: to be under the gun, to be to be nervous,

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Speaker 2: to be to be working over time. And I had

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Speaker 2: I had an idea for good ending, an the second

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Speaker 2: ending it worked out much better.

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Speaker 1: Right, And so as you would write, did it flow

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Speaker 1: twenty five thousand words? Did it just flow big time.

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Speaker 2: It was really that. That's a very fast paced. Twenty

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Speaker 2: five thousand words in one month is a lot. But

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Speaker 2: it was January. You know, the days short, the weather's bads.

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Speaker 2: January is my favorite time to write. Yeah, because you know,

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Speaker 2: you can't do anything outdoors January February and so uh.

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Speaker 2: I start a new book each year, Almost every year.

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Speaker 2: I started a book on January the first, with the

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Speaker 2: goal of finishing by July the first, because of those

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Speaker 2: first three months are great times to write.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about books these days. Do you know

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Speaker 1: who your audiences? Has it changed over the years? What

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Speaker 1: a sales like? Is it hardback, is it softback? Is

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Speaker 1: it electronic? Is that the whole book market being up ended?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Great question, Mike, laugh and tell people I sold

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Speaker 2: twice as many books before the internet, back in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen nineties because truthfully, because there were so many more

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Speaker 2: bookstores and there were so many more outlets, and that's

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Speaker 2: hurt publishing. But what's helped what's help publishing? Save publishing

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Speaker 2: or ebooks because they're so popular and they're so inexpensive

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Speaker 2: to make and market. There are no returns, there's no shipping,

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Speaker 2: no warehousing, publishers love them. We fight with publishers over

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Speaker 2: the royalties, but we publish of everything. That's part of

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Speaker 2: that's part of our profession. But but e books have

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Speaker 2: really been to salvation for popular fiction. Uh. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: all changed. It's all changed. The mass market's disappearing. I've

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Speaker 2: sold zillions of mass market books and airports and bookstores

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Speaker 2: and that's there. They're about to be a thing of

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Speaker 2: the past. Uh. But you know, audio is huge now

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Speaker 2: and e books are huge and hard My sales are

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Speaker 2: roughly one third hardbacks, one third e books, and one

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Speaker 2: third paperbacks. And that was unheard of fifteen years ago.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. Who do you write for the same people?

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Speaker 2: I write for myself because I know what has worked,

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Speaker 2: I know what I like, I know I know the

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Speaker 2: stories I want to tell, and so far those are

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Speaker 2: the stories people want to read. And after fifty books,

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Speaker 2: I feel very lucky to have so many faithful loyal readers.

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Speaker 1: Why you still as in a giant each January?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I can't wait. It's just so much fun.

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Speaker 2: I have all these I have all these stories I

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Speaker 2: want to write about. When when you when you watch

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Speaker 2: lawyers and judges and courts and trials and appeals and

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Speaker 2: things like. The material is endless. Uh, the crime is endless.

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Speaker 2: Especially in this country. Civil disputes are endless. We're very little,

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Speaker 2: nottigious people. We love to file lawsuits and hire lawyers,

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Speaker 2: and the and the stories go on forever. I can

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Speaker 2: write a thousand stories.

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Speaker 1: Are you getting better?

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Speaker 2: Boy? Don't know. That's a tough one to you can't

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Speaker 2: answer that. I have not. I have not deliberately changed

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Speaker 2: the writing style. I changed from the first book, A

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Speaker 2: Time to Kill to the Firm the second book because

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Speaker 2: the first book was a very heavy, uh tense book

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Speaker 2: and way too long, and it didn't sell initially, and uh,

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Speaker 2: I went for something more accessible, more more popular, more readable.

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Speaker 2: I wanted a vast audience. I wanted a bigger audience.

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Speaker 2: And then so I'm still there. I still really I'm

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Speaker 2: very much aware of of people out there who read

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Speaker 2: the books. I want them to be satisfied. I want

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Speaker 2: them to lose sleep, call in late for work, skip lunch, whatever,

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Speaker 2: to read the book. That's what I want the page you.

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Speaker 1: To turn, all right, fair enough, I can believe that. Listen, hey, John,

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Speaker 1: I got a text already. I've just finished reading The Widow.

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Speaker 1: It's a great read. Lots of read lots of your books.

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Speaker 1: This was one of the best, in my opinion, great characters.

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Speaker 1: There you go. Now, listen, we talked previously, and I

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Speaker 1: think I'm right saying you're not overly involved in the

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Speaker 1: television side of the equation. Right once you've done your book.

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Speaker 1: Somebody options that that's you out. Am I correct in

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Speaker 1: saying that, yes, okay, So, but I read Jason Bateman

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Speaker 1: and Tom Holland are going to do the Partner. I mean,

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Speaker 1: does that make any difference to you? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: happen to be a big Jason Bateman fan, so i'd

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Speaker 1: be if I was you, I'd be going, oh my lord,

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Speaker 1: Jason Bateman, how cool is this?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm a big fan of both of them. But

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Speaker 2: h with film and TV, you don't believe anything anything

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Speaker 2: until they start filming. Well, I've had so many deals

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Speaker 2: blow up at the last moment. When they start filming.

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Speaker 2: They're spending big money, and that's when something's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Until they start filming the partner, I won't believe it.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy about it. I hope it's good.

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Speaker 1: I don't get involved, do you write for the television

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Speaker 1: in any way, shape or film in any way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form, or it just happens to be that way,

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Speaker 1: you know, it just.

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Speaker 2: Happens to me that way. I write a very simple style,

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Speaker 2: one scene after the other, without a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: backfilling or flashbacking and stuff. It's a very simple direct

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Speaker 2: style that has always appeal to filmmakers because they're easy

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Speaker 2: to adapt.

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Speaker 1: And so even though you don't involve yourself, does it

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Speaker 1: bother you how it looks when it gets to screen.

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Speaker 2: Back in the old days, back in the good old days,

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Speaker 2: the early nineties, when we were doing movie after movie,

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Speaker 2: huge movie after a huge movie, it was easy. I

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Speaker 2: saw the movies back then, I had nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with them. I got really lucky with Hollywood. There were

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Speaker 2: big directors, big cast, big box office draws domestic and foreign.

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Speaker 2: We were printing money. Life was good. So I never

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Speaker 2: quibble with an ending or a change of character or

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Speaker 2: what because the movies were working. And I've learned over

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Speaker 2: the years, just it's gonna be something different. Sell it

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Speaker 2: to good people, smart people, stay out of the way

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Speaker 2: and hope for the best. And so far I've been

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Speaker 2: very lucky.

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Speaker 1: Do you think. I don't want to get all nostalgic

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Speaker 1: about it, but when you say you're printing money in

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Speaker 1: the good old days, do you reckon they were the

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Speaker 1: good old days? I mean we might have lived through

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Speaker 1: the best of times in what you do, or is

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Speaker 1: it just different?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it was better back then for big movies,

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Speaker 2: for big writers and big actors because the movies were bigger,

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Speaker 2: there were more of them. Now now there's so much television,

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Speaker 2: which we all enjoy, but as far as movies are concerned,

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Speaker 2: there aren't nearly as many big movies and big actors

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Speaker 2: and actresses as they were thirty years ago. That's a

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Speaker 2: huge change. But you know, television has been great too.

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Speaker 2: It's been provided a lot of work and a lot

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Speaker 2: of money for writers, producers, directors, cast members, crew members.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge industry. So I can't say ones better

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Speaker 2: than listen. I got lucky. I had my pinnacle with

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Speaker 2: Hollywood thirty years ago with great movies. I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: that's going to come back, although there are still deals

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Speaker 2: from option deals from movies that we make and that

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Speaker 2: we hope for the best.

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Speaker 1: So I'm optimistic, which brings us, of course to the

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Speaker 1: great tech question of the age AI. You're involved legally,

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Speaker 1: open AIS all that sort of stuff. Do you sit

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Speaker 1: there fear full of your creativity and individuality?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you don't know where it's going. We don't

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Speaker 2: know where it's going. There's some people who say that

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Speaker 2: in a few short years, publishers will not need writers.

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Speaker 2: AI is going to be so good that AI can

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Speaker 2: write a novel, a suspense novel, a mystery is better

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Speaker 2: and better than I can. I don't think that's going

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Speaker 2: to happen. As a consumer of books, I can't see

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Speaker 2: myself ever buying a book produced by AI. I want

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Speaker 2: to know the writer, I want to know the tone.

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Speaker 2: And AI can capture a lot, it's phenomenal. It can't

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Speaker 2: always capture the emotion and drama of the human beings,

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Speaker 2: and that's what people love to read about. So you

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Speaker 2: know there's going to be ye, there's going to be

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Speaker 2: more and more pressure to create AI generated books and content. Again,

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Speaker 2: I don't know where that's going. I don't really understand AI.

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Speaker 2: I'm just wanting to hang on to what I've got

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Speaker 2: and keep writing books, the real books that people enjoy.

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Speaker 1: How are we going to how are we going to

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Speaker 1: regulate it, get some rules around it. What's legal, what's not.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. We're trying to rain in on

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Speaker 2: some companies now through lawsuits because we we allege, we

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Speaker 2: have not proven, and I can't say much about it

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Speaker 2: because I'm tied up in court. But our lawsuit alleges

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Speaker 2: that these companies just took our books because they craved data.

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Speaker 2: They have to have so much data. They took our books, magazines,

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Speaker 2: newspaper everything. They wiped out libraries and plowed all this

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Speaker 2: stuff through the llms to create their their what they

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Speaker 2: do and without worrying about copyright infringement. And we think

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Speaker 2: copyright is sacred, and until the court says otherwise, we

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Speaker 2: will keep fighting. We're fighting all the time now trying

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Speaker 2: to protect what we are, our intellectual property and what

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Speaker 2: we have created.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what the good thing about your

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Speaker 1: writing is, we get to have you back on the program.

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Speaker 1: So keep writing and we'll talk to you again soon.

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Speaker 2: I'll see you next year.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic John Grisham one of the good ones. The new

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Speaker 1: book is The Widow. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,

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Speaker 1: listen live to news talks. It'd be from six am weekdays,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio