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Speaker 1: Well, we're still on the migration and immigration issues right now,

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Speaker 1: right here in New Zealand, with Ericus Stamford sending a

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Speaker 1: clear message to immigrants obey the law or you're gone.

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Speaker 1: Criminals with New Zealand residency could now face deportation for

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Speaker 1: up to twenty years after arriving. Now that has doubled

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Speaker 1: the current limit, So well this work or not. We're

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Speaker 1: joined by Simon Lawrence, who is an immigration lawyer. Simon,

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Speaker 1: good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning.

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Speaker 1: Was this a needed change to our immigration law because

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Speaker 1: a lot of the critics have already said it seems

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Speaker 1: pretty vague.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Well, that was the first impression that I had

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Speaker 2: when I read this. I think it's necessary to see

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Speaker 2: what's the wording of the bill itself, which hasn't even

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Speaker 2: been introduced yet, to see what the mechanism is really

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Speaker 2: going to be and how.

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Speaker 1: Many migrants actually decide to commit crimes after living here

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Speaker 1: for over ten years, because surely they might have been

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Speaker 1: criminals before they came here.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a separate issue because there are other there

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Speaker 2: are others who have committed criminal offense. This is a

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Speaker 2: long time ago which this bill seeks to sweep up

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Speaker 2: and the classic case which I think has influenced this,

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Speaker 2: as that of Carl Strubik. But in respect of those

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Speaker 2: who might have committed offenses a long time after they've

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Speaker 2: arrived here and obtained residents, as the minister said yesterday,

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Speaker 2: probably not very many. And in fact, the other issue

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Speaker 2: is that quite a lot of those would probably have

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Speaker 2: gone on to get citizenship. So a change to the

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Speaker 2: immigration rules is not going to affect them.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that thing, this is about residency. But there are

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Speaker 1: immigrants who come here. I'm one, I was born in

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Speaker 1: the UK. We come here and we get citizenship. Now

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Speaker 1: will they be effective? If someone's been living here for

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Speaker 1: ten years, why would they not just go out and

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Speaker 1: get the citizenship and then we can't touch them anyway?

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Speaker 2: That's exactly it. And I mean there are people who

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Speaker 2: sat here as residents for twenty thirty forty years who

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Speaker 2: never gets citizenship. They don't need to, never occurs to them.

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Speaker 2: They don't want to lose their birth citizenship. So there's

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Speaker 2: a few of those. How many of those commit serious

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Speaker 2: enough crimes? It's probably a very small number.

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Speaker 1: And do you think this is just politics because there's

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Speaker 1: so much talk about immigration. We just talked about it

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Speaker 1: with Vincent mcavinnie. We've got the protests happening in the

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Speaker 1: UK and Australia. Is this a political response to a mood.

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Speaker 2: It's a response to a mood and an approach which

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Speaker 2: is sweeping through what we might call the liberal democracies

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Speaker 2: over the last couple of years in particular. And I

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Speaker 2: think I also thought of the way that Australia has

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Speaker 2: been throwing out the five O one deportees, and I

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Speaker 2: sense that this is all rather reactive.

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Speaker 1: I have to say, isn't the bad press for immigrants

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Speaker 1: is well, it's unfortunate because they are so crucial for

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Speaker 1: almost all the country's economies.

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Speaker 2: They're certainly crucial to New Zealand's economy, something that the

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Speaker 2: government must never forget.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And on a separate there's twenty thousand illegal overstayers

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Speaker 1: currently in this country. Do we need to do something

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's been twenty thousand illegals overstayers as long as

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Speaker 2: I've been in business in this field, which is about

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Speaker 2: thirty years, so this is no surprise at all. It

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Speaker 2: fluctuates back and forth. It was about fourteen thousand prior

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Speaker 2: to COVID. Yes, of course, something should be done. Suggestion

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Speaker 2: has been made about having an amnesty year that I'd

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Speaker 2: probably support that. However, the last time we had one

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and two I think it was, it

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Speaker 2: didn't actually make a huge difference to the ultimate numbers.

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Speaker 2: There's always a sort of a tranch of people who

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Speaker 2: who will just outstay their visas.

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Speaker 1: All right, Simon, I thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Simon Laurence here is an immigration lawyer, Chaier of the

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Speaker 1: New Zealand Association of Migration and Investment.

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