1
00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:05,320
Speaker 1: Kioda.

2
00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,440
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

3
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:16,119
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Crime is

4
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,680
Speaker 2: a constant hot topic of debate in New Zealand, one

5
00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 2: that is rarely far from the front pages. The recent

6
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,159
Speaker 2: alleged murder of University of Auckland student Kyl Warrell in

7
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,159
Speaker 2: Auckland has served as a reminder of the randomness that

8
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,560
Speaker 2: comes with violent crime, with a sixteen year old now

9
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,159
Speaker 2: charged with murder. But the government is touting that violent

10
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,479
Speaker 2: crime is on the decline, years before their intended target.

11
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 2: So I R streets really any safer? And is vibe

12
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,640
Speaker 2: more than policy influencing this Today on the Front Page

13
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,919
Speaker 2: ends at Herald's senior journalist Derek Cheng is with us

14
00:00:52,240 --> 00:01:02,000
Speaker 2: to discuss the stats. Derek, So we've spoken to you

15
00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,240
Speaker 2: before about the official New Zealand Crime and Victim Survey.

16
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,840
Speaker 2: Now the full report isn't available publicly yet, but the

17
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,480
Speaker 2: government has already touted some of the key figures from it,

18
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 2: haven't they.

19
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they came out and they were like, oh,

20
00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 1: this is an amazing result. We've seen an enormous reduction

21
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 1: in the number of victims of violent crime and they

22
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 1: have a public service target to reduce that number by

23
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,120
Speaker 1: twenty thousand compared to when the government took office in

24
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,200
Speaker 1: October twenty twenty three. And the latest figures, which was

25
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,240
Speaker 1: a quarter the result, which shows the numbers in the

26
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,199
Speaker 1: year to February, showed that they were actually already ahead

27
00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 1: of that target. There were twenty eight thousand fewer victims

28
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,200
Speaker 1: for that year to February compared to the year to

29
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 1: October twenty twenty three. So it's not very surprising I

30
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,880
Speaker 1: guess that the government comes out and talks about what

31
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 1: a great achievement this is, that their policies are working.

32
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 1: And I mean any politician would want to beat their

33
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,160
Speaker 1: chests whenever they've they've achieved, and even to pass this target,

34
00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 1: this target wasn't really you know, it's for twenty twenty nine,

35
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,520
Speaker 1: so we're four years ahead and well below the number,

36
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,959
Speaker 1: and that is you know, something that any politician would

37
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,160
Speaker 1: want to would want a song and dance about.

38
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,959
Speaker 2: Well, the government did admit that these numbers are volatile,

39
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,200
Speaker 2: though what does that mean really, Well, the.

40
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,520
Speaker 1: Numbers are volatile because any crime is a really complete expecture, right,

41
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 1: I mean, and Bible crime in particular, there's multiple factors

42
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,280
Speaker 1: that feed into that equation and that they go far

43
00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,519
Speaker 1: beyond what a government is doing. They include access to

44
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,440
Speaker 1: healthcare or good housing or good education. It's what the

45
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,919
Speaker 1: economy is doing, what household disposable income is or is not.

46
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 1: The numbers will go up and down because there are

47
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,959
Speaker 1: so many intersecting factors into you know, the levels of crime.

48
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,120
Speaker 1: But the government didn't really allude to those when they

49
00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,000
Speaker 1: said that the numbers are going to be volatile. What

50
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,960
Speaker 1: Justice Minister Paul goldsmanth said was these numbers are volatile.

51
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,799
Speaker 1: So when and if the numbers go up, it's basically

52
00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,080
Speaker 1: Labour's fault, which is a typically political thing to say.

53
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,920
Speaker 1: When you ignore all the other factors and things are

54
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 1: going well, then the government's doing very well. Thanks, thanks

55
00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 1: very much, Pats on the back. Things are going wrong.

56
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,840
Speaker 1: It's the previous government's fault and things are going wrong

57
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 1: despite what we're doing, and which is obviously a very

58
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,200
Speaker 1: colored political way of viewing things. So when Goldsmith talked

59
00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,280
Speaker 1: about the vaults early the numbers, he didn't really talk

60
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,880
Speaker 1: about how things can go up and down. And there

61
00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,239
Speaker 1: are so many factors involved in the equation of crime.

62
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,120
Speaker 1: He was really saying, it's they got off again. It's

63
00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,120
Speaker 1: going to be Labour's fault.

64
00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,440
Speaker 2: Tackling law and order has been a major focus of

65
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 2: this government. Can you remind us of some of the

66
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,440
Speaker 2: policies that they've introduced.

67
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 1: Well, the most recent one was the passing of the

68
00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,840
Speaker 1: sentencing reforms. There's a number of policies from National and

69
00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,920
Speaker 1: in the coalition agreements with Newdyland First and the Act

70
00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 1: Party which are designed to basically LinkedIn sentences and stop

71
00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,880
Speaker 1: what the government says is the the two leniency sentences

72
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:07,280
Speaker 1: that happened under Labour's watch. Those include like capping the

73
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,720
Speaker 1: maximum discount the judge can go at forty percent. There

74
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 1: is a sort of manifestly unjust get out of jail

75
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,040
Speaker 1: clause there that's involved there. That includes limiting how many

76
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,799
Speaker 1: times you can get a discount for remorse or youth.

77
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,680
Speaker 1: It includes encouraging concurrent sentences if someone offends while they're

78
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,159
Speaker 1: on bail. So there's a number of there's a number

79
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:33,920
Speaker 1: of specific policies in that law change, and that's estimated

80
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,640
Speaker 1: to increase the prison population by I think thirteen hundred

81
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,160
Speaker 1: additional prisoners in the next ten years. There's last year

82
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,680
Speaker 1: they passed the anti gang legislation which had a number

83
00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,280
Speaker 1: of things and including the gang page ban for example.

84
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 1: Obviously three strikes the second coming of three strikes is

85
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,000
Speaker 1: part of the restoring law and Order agenda. These things

86
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,680
Speaker 1: are actually alluded to by Godsmith when he talked about

87
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,680
Speaker 1: how our work is seeing great results in the reduction

88
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 1: of these in the number of victims of violent crime.

89
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,520
Speaker 1: He also talked about scrapping the state funding for the

90
00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,280
Speaker 1: cultural reports. Cultural reports a sort of background information that

91
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,360
Speaker 1: can be given to a judge at sentencing and Minister

92
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,040
Speaker 1: of Justice and analysis shows that those reports on average

93
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,360
Speaker 1: usually led to attempercent discount and honest sentence.

94
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,279
Speaker 3: Great to be here with our Minister of Justice and

95
00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 3: Minister of Police, Paul Gosmith and Martin Mitchell. And the

96
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,320
Speaker 3: reason is that also some good encouraging signs. I think

97
00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,960
Speaker 3: some good early encouraging momentum around the reduction and trying

98
00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,760
Speaker 3: to meet our reduction of twenty thousand victims of violent

99
00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,479
Speaker 3: crime being reduced by twenty twenty nine, and we're making

100
00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,000
Speaker 3: some good progress on that, and I think that's a

101
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,480
Speaker 3: collective effort from both ministers and their teams. But certainly

102
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 3: the police, the corrections team, but also the general public

103
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:48,159
Speaker 3: as well. And so I just want to say thank

104
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:49,680
Speaker 3: you as we try and restore law and order in

105
00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 3: New Zealand. It's good to be celebrating or less acknowledging

106
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,919
Speaker 3: some of these milestones. Acknowledging also that we have a

107
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 3: long way to go to get to where we need

108
00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:57,960
Speaker 3: to get to.

109
00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 2: If not the government policies, then what is contributing to

110
00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,120
Speaker 2: this decrease? Do you think can they take credit for

111
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,159
Speaker 2: the vibe that they're putting out there, as Justice Minister

112
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:13,600
Speaker 2: Paul Goldsmith said to.

113
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,240
Speaker 1: You, Well, an important point in all of these policies

114
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 1: that Goldsmith cited is that they haven't really taken effect yet.

115
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,480
Speaker 1: So they passed their sentencing reforms, but they don't come

116
00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,600
Speaker 1: into effect until the end of Journe three strikes two

117
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,480
Speaker 1: point zero. Even though the legislation was passed at the

118
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 1: end of last year, it doesn't commence until the middle

119
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,360
Speaker 1: of June. The anti gang legislation has been in force.

120
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,719
Speaker 1: But promise with Christopher Luxen in the announcement where they

121
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,960
Speaker 1: beat a their chests and said look how good we're

122
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,200
Speaker 1: doing in law or order, he said that the new

123
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,880
Speaker 1: tools for police to fight gangs were already quote unquote

124
00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 1: unearthing illegal guns and illegal drugs, but the means to

125
00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,880
Speaker 1: do that was via a prohibition order, which a cork

126
00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,799
Speaker 1: can hand down to a gang member if they violated

127
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,120
Speaker 1: the gang patch three times. No such orders have been given,

128
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,799
Speaker 1: So he's saying that something's happened, which clearly hasn't happened.

129
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,360
Speaker 1: And as for the cultural reports, yes they have been

130
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,359
Speaker 1: they've had their state funding acts, but it's a really

131
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,920
Speaker 1: long stretch to say that that one thing could have

132
00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 1: led to a twenty seven percent reduction in the number

133
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 1: of victims of violent crime. So when I was interviewing

134
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,000
Speaker 1: Goldsmith about this and he was talking about how great

135
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,600
Speaker 1: the government was doing, I asked him, don't you think

136
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,440
Speaker 1: there are maybe factors independent of the government that might

137
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 1: be contributing to this And he said, well, you know,

138
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,120
Speaker 1: obviously there are broader factors, and one very significant factor

139
00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,240
Speaker 1: is the messaging from the government, as in the vibe

140
00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,760
Speaker 1: is really important and it's a message that filters through

141
00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 1: the entire system. And he said that, you know, acknowledging

142
00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,800
Speaker 1: judicial independence, and the government can't tell a judge what

143
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,560
Speaker 1: sentence to give, it can only set the law, which

144
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 1: the judiciary then interprets in handing down it.

145
00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,679
Speaker 2: Sentence, what are the stats have you seen?

146
00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 1: Well, I mean crime stats are really crime stats are

147
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,239
Speaker 1: a real puzzle or right, because there's multiple different stats

148
00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,760
Speaker 1: and politicians love to cherry pick whatever stats they want

149
00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,280
Speaker 1: to back up the things that they say. So we've

150
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,280
Speaker 1: talked about the New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey, and

151
00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,920
Speaker 1: that's probably the most robust survey because it interviews thousands

152
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 1: of New Zealander's age fifteen and over and it accounts

153
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,360
Speaker 1: for and in doing that it is able to account

154
00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:27,200
Speaker 1: for unreported crime, and that is only about a quarter

155
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 1: of crime is ever actually reported to police. But in

156
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,640
Speaker 1: the latest announcement from the government, they're actually looking at

157
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,439
Speaker 1: quarterly results from that survey, which isn't meant to be

158
00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,720
Speaker 1: an annual survey. In the footnotes themselves in the survey,

159
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 1: they talk about the quarterly results having to take them

160
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,680
Speaker 1: with a bit of a pinch of salt because it's

161
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 1: harder to standardize the results for the demographics of New

162
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,960
Speaker 1: Zealand on a quarterly basis than it is an annual basis.

163
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 1: So the quarterly results that they just announced where they

164
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,400
Speaker 1: had such a big reduction. It is very good news, obviously,

165
00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,360
Speaker 1: but it is also like not as robust as the

166
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 1: annual results. Annual results they were released earlier this year

167
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,760
Speaker 1: and it was up to i think the year to

168
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,120
Speaker 1: October twenty twenty four, and at that point the number

169
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 1: of adult victims of violent crime was much higher than

170
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,199
Speaker 1: the latest quarterly results and has been more or less

171
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,840
Speaker 1: the same since the survey started in twenty eighteen. There's been,

172
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,439
Speaker 1: you know, there's been a bit of ups and downs,

173
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,040
Speaker 1: but it's what they called no statistically significant difference, and

174
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,800
Speaker 1: it includes during the whole tenure that Labor was in office.

175
00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,760
Speaker 1: Then there are other there are several other statistics. There

176
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,040
Speaker 1: are victimization reports to police, so if I go and

177
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 1: report a crime to police, that's recorded as a victimization

178
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,120
Speaker 1: to police. And National has used those statistics to show

179
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,959
Speaker 1: or to claim a rise in violent crime under Labor,

180
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 1: but they're really only looking at one thing, and that

181
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 1: some acts intended to cause injury, and it's true that

182
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,000
Speaker 1: those did rise a lot under Labor, But if you

183
00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,400
Speaker 1: look at court data, which looked that people charged and

184
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 1: people convicted, then those numbers are much more static. So

185
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 1: the main takeaway from this is that there are a

186
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,720
Speaker 1: number of ways that we look at crime statistics, and

187
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 1: none of them are particularly definitive. Some are considered more

188
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,800
Speaker 1: robust than others, and overall you're generally looking for trends.

189
00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,800
Speaker 1: The trends in crime data show a general reduction in

190
00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,000
Speaker 1: crime pre pandemic years heading down to sort of twenty

191
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 1: twenty two, and since then they've been rising, particularly in

192
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 1: including a violent crime, and since maybe the middle of

193
00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 1: last year that has kind of appears to have picked.

194
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,360
Speaker 1: But then it's very early days looking at that data

195
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:48,959
Speaker 1: given that it's so recent.

196
00:10:49,080 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 2: Obviously, we mentioned o Worrel in the intro and while

197
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,880
Speaker 2: that's obviously still a developing case, it is believed to

198
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,600
Speaker 2: be a random attack. At this stage. There's not really

199
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,840
Speaker 2: anything that can the government can do to police random attacks,

200
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,959
Speaker 2: though is there not directly?

201
00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,959
Speaker 1: They can do things in general that can help to

202
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,280
Speaker 1: address things like that. And one of the things that

203
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,439
Speaker 1: Police Minister Mitchell said when he was talking about the

204
00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,080
Speaker 1: reduction and violent crime victims was that there's been a

205
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,760
Speaker 1: forty percent increase in police on the beat and having

206
00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,680
Speaker 1: more police on the beat visible on the streets has

207
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 1: been shown to be effective and generally making communities feel

208
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,760
Speaker 1: safer and being more of a deterrent towards crime. But

209
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, crime is often impulsive. It's often fueled by

210
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 1: substance addictions, by trauma, and given those quite volatile factors,

211
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,680
Speaker 1: when it strikes, it's often spontaneous, impulsive, and quite random.

212
00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,320
Speaker 2: Even There are some other plans in their early stages

213
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 2: at the moment the government wants to work on. One

214
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,000
Speaker 2: is expanding citizen arrest powers, which we've talked about before

215
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,760
Speaker 2: on this podcast, but I understand that the Ministry of

216
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,600
Speaker 2: Justice isn't a huge fan of it.

217
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,520
Speaker 1: So this was work that started with consultation with the

218
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 1: Ministry or Advisory Group for victims of retail crime. Retail

219
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,640
Speaker 1: crime has been on the rise quite significantly. Part of

220
00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,240
Speaker 1: that is down to better reporting mechanisms. The system AURA,

221
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,680
Speaker 1: which police introduced, has made it much easier to report

222
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,280
Speaker 1: retail crime, but there is also a general feeling that

223
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,600
Speaker 1: retail crime itself has been increasing. So the government is

224
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,920
Speaker 1: trying to crack down on retail crime and the first

225
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,959
Speaker 1: thing that they wanted to look at, and they wanted

226
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,920
Speaker 1: the Ministry Advisory Group to look at the citizens arrest

227
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,120
Speaker 1: So those powers are quite unclear. The Ministry Advisory Group,

228
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,400
Speaker 1: which you would expect, comes down or came down really

229
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,480
Speaker 1: strongly in favor of empowering citizens of rest even when

230
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 1: a crime hadn't taken place. You know, they wanted to

231
00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,599
Speaker 1: empower citizens' rest when you had a reasonable belief that

232
00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,160
Speaker 1: a crime was taking placement. Wasn't really prepared to go

233
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,400
Speaker 1: that for obvious reasons. They've instead sort of found in

234
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,440
Speaker 1: middle ground where they want to clarify those powers and

235
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,240
Speaker 1: broaden them and they hope that that will make a

236
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 1: material difference. Whenever they have proposals that they asked irrelevant

237
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,360
Speaker 1: officials to look them over. And the justice officials in

238
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 1: this case were not exactly endorsing the government proposal here.

239
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,959
Speaker 1: They said that the proposal won't really have any desire,

240
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,720
Speaker 1: in fact, won't really have any impact on public safety,

241
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,840
Speaker 1: and came with a bunch of risks, and those included

242
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 1: people making citizens arrests when police wouldn't make an arrest.

243
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:33,480
Speaker 1: And there could be a number of reasons for that,

244
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 1: you know, for example, there's no evidence for police to

245
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,440
Speaker 1: be able to pursue a prosecution. They said that there's

246
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,680
Speaker 1: a risk of escalating violence. We've already seen this when

247
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,720
Speaker 1: a dairy worker in Auckland was killed after he confronted

248
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 1: someone who stole something from the shop and confronted them

249
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 1: one hundred meters from the store and was stabbed and killed.

250
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 1: So that's not to say that the citizens arrest powers

251
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: don't need to be clarified. The Justice officials actually said yes,

252
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,720
Speaker 1: it would be helpful to clarify them, but they didn't

253
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,440
Speaker 1: recommend going as far as the government did and is

254
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,199
Speaker 1: doing is they want to be able to for people

255
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,560
Speaker 1: to make a citizens arrest at any time of day

256
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,840
Speaker 1: and using any reasonable force, and that can include striking

257
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 1: someone or causing them bodily harm if, for example, someone

258
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,559
Speaker 1: is resisting arrest. Currently, the citizens arrest provisions is restricted.

259
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 1: It needs to be an offense that carries the punishment

260
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,400
Speaker 1: of three years in jail, and for stolen goods, that

261
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,200
Speaker 1: needs to be stolen goods worth more than one thousand dollars,

262
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 1: and you know you're not going to grab someone and

263
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 1: see what's in their hands and then grab a calculator

264
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:30,560
Speaker 1: and see if that adds up to a thousand dollars.

265
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 1: So there's definitely a case that those powers do need

266
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,240
Speaker 1: to be clarified. The danger or the fear here is

267
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 1: that it will lead to all kinds of vigilanty justice,

268
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:44,200
Speaker 1: which will actually make public safety matters worse rather than better.

269
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:53,479
Speaker 4: Legislative changes introduced in twenty twenty play stay heavy regulatory

270
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 4: burden on these volunteers. While some of these changes have

271
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 4: been positive, others went beyond what is necessary to ensure

272
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,760
Speaker 4: public safety. I've heard from club members and range operators

273
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,480
Speaker 4: that this regulatory burden is too high it may force

274
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,880
Speaker 4: some to consider closure. This bill simplifies the regulatory requirements

275
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,320
Speaker 4: for clubs and rangers to reduce the burden on operators

276
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,360
Speaker 4: while maintaining safety requirements.

277
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,400
Speaker 2: And I believe there are ongoing revisions to the gun

278
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,920
Speaker 2: safety laws and three D printed guns are one of

279
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,080
Speaker 2: the latest talking points here. Can you tell me what's

280
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,120
Speaker 2: happening around that?

281
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 1: Well, the government has agreed with the National Party has

282
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 1: agreed with the Egg Party to rewrite the Arms Act.

283
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 1: The Arms Act is I think forty two years old

284
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 1: and is no longer as well out of date basically,

285
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 1: and it has no provisions for three D printing of

286
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,360
Speaker 1: firearms or firearms parts. This is a small problem, but

287
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,120
Speaker 1: an increasing problem in New Zealand police have confiscated a

288
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,040
Speaker 1: number of three D printed firearms and firearms parts and

289
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,440
Speaker 1: charged people with offenses, but they actually want a specific

290
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,600
Speaker 1: offense created where it's illegal to possess any blueprints for

291
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 1: firearms parts and firearms themselves to be three D printed.

292
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:24,120
Speaker 1: That is still being consulted on. The government rewrite of

293
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,520
Speaker 1: the Arms Act is scheduled for some time this parliamentary term.

294
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,520
Speaker 1: There's just been consultation on that over the summer period.

295
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 1: A bill to enact what the government wants is probably

296
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,120
Speaker 1: not expected too much later this year and to be

297
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,760
Speaker 1: passed sometime next year. But it was interesting because I

298
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 1: was speaking with the minister responsible for that rewright, Nicole McKee.

299
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,680
Speaker 1: You know, she said she's really trying to look at

300
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,080
Speaker 1: a balance here because some of the three D printed

301
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 1: innovation that she's seen by New Zealand companies is only

302
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 1: happening in New Zealand and it could be a real

303
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,400
Speaker 1: boost for economic and small business growth. She talked about

304
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 1: having visited somewhere that was making really lightweight stocks, which

305
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,760
Speaker 1: would be of huge interest to the Defense Force, huge

306
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,119
Speaker 1: interest to hunters, anyone who carries a lot of that

307
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 1: sort of equipment. You know, their loads could be a

308
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 1: hell of a lot lighter. Obviously, she doesn't want criminals

309
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 1: to be able to get your hands on that, So

310
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:27,480
Speaker 1: how you balance that from religious littive standpoint is a

311
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 1: really difficult question. So we'll wait and see what the

312
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,280
Speaker 1: government comes up with it. In the meantime, police will

313
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,600
Speaker 1: still go after those three D printed guns and gun parts.

314
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:42,679
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Derek Cool. That's it for this

315
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,960
Speaker 2: episode of the Front Page. You can read more about

316
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 2: today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzherld dot co

317
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,640
Speaker 2: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills

318
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 2: and Richard Martin, who is also a sound engineer. I'm

319
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,159
Speaker 2: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or

320
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,800
Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for

321
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,880
Speaker 2: another look behind the headlines.