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Speaker 4: Face not a dress and welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 4: If you must have any of the previous house. It
Speaker 4: was a spirited conversation we had there with Ashley Church
Speaker 4: for the one Roof radio show. But that's the way
Speaker 4: Ashley and I love it when we get a few
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Speaker 4: get the hours up as soon as we can once
Speaker 4: each other has concluded. Right now, it's time for the
Speaker 4: parents squad of My guest is a neuroscience educator. We're
Speaker 4: just how on a second, my we're just waiting to
Speaker 4: connect with them, actually, Nathan Wallace, but we are going
Speaker 4: to be me a chat about just are we actually
Speaker 4: making parenting harder than it needs to be? Because I
Speaker 4: think there's this, I think maybe there is a bit
Speaker 4: of a subtext as parents these days because we're all working.
Speaker 4: There's rarely do people have the luxury of staying at
Speaker 4: home of a stay at home parent long term, and
Speaker 4: parents both work, and I do wonder whether part of
Speaker 4: that is that people maybe over compensator are pretty full
Speaker 4: on when it comes to parenting, you know, whether we're
Speaker 4: just in our kids' faces, and when it comes to
Speaker 4: helicopter parenting as well. But are there ways that we
Speaker 4: are making things too complicated as parents want your cause
Speaker 4: on that O eight one hundred eighty ten eighty. The
Speaker 4: other side of that, of course, is that I was
Speaker 4: trying to remember when I was. When I was a student,
Speaker 4: we had extra curricular stuff, But I look at kids
Speaker 4: these days and god, they're doing heaps of things. Anyway,
Speaker 4: joining me to discuss it down on a second, just
Speaker 4: clarifying something technically, Yeah, there we go. Nathan Wallace, Hello,
Speaker 4: how are you not too bad? Sorry? I didn't realize
Speaker 4: you're on the line there. Just had a bit of
Speaker 4: issue trying to connect through what have you been keeping
Speaker 4: yourself busy with lately?
Speaker 3: I've been on holiday with my adult daughter. That was
Speaker 3: a new experience. Oh it was wonderful.
Speaker 4: Oh God, the way you said that was a new experience.
Speaker 4: I wasn't just.
Speaker 3: What seven been adults for that long, and I haven't
Speaker 3: really gone on a holiday with them and their partner before. Ah. Right,
Speaker 3: so that was a new experience.
Speaker 4: Oh good stuff, So you'd be well rested.
Speaker 3: Hey do you think I've had a week touring out
Speaker 3: in the South Island as well after that?
Speaker 4: Oh? Okay, so you've really what on holiday?
Speaker 3: No? No, no, that's right. You know, talks all through
Speaker 3: the last week and stuff.
Speaker 4: Hey do you think that is modern parenting? Do you
Speaker 4: think that parenting stars have changed quite a lot in
Speaker 4: the last of ten twenty thirty years with working parents,
Speaker 4: that we're making parenting harder than it needs to be.
Speaker 3: I think it certainly has changed a lot in the
Speaker 3: last thirty years, But I don't know if i'd agree
Speaker 3: with the making it harder than it needs to be.
Speaker 3: I don't think most people are. I think, you know,
Speaker 3: it doesn't wardly changing world.
Speaker 4: How do you think parenting has changed in the last
Speaker 4: you know, decade two or three? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's rapidly changing. You know, we're living
Speaker 3: in a world of rapid change. So you know, just
Speaker 3: my youngest is what just turn twenty five, But I
Speaker 3: didn't really have to deal with the social media thing
Speaker 3: too much. It was just cell phones and stuff. But
Speaker 3: now that's a huge issue. I think it is it's
Speaker 3: changing rapidly, parents are them to respond rapidly. Just the
Speaker 3: rate of change in the world is happening fast. These
Speaker 3: children got exposed to things like you know, which is
Speaker 3: two things that really arouse your brain stent and could
Speaker 3: cause you know, stress leads the negative outcomes as isolation
Speaker 3: and unpredictability, two of the things that we experienced during COVID.
Speaker 3: Now we might have handled it as adults, but the
Speaker 3: teenage brains particularly, it's susceptible of that. So children, I think,
Speaker 3: I mean, there's just so many things. They were all
Speaker 3: in childcare centers by the time they were one, We stayed,
Speaker 3: had a home parent tour. Eighteen twenty percent of them
Speaker 3: live in the same community as their family, their village,
Speaker 3: their grandparents and stuff. Eighty percent of us did in
Speaker 3: Generation X. Like it is a rapid amount of change.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes it sound like it's so I'm probably
Speaker 4: not so much tough for the parents, but certainly tougher
Speaker 4: for the kids. I mean, I think my upbringing being well,
Speaker 4: it's pretty straightforward. I think, went to school and I
Speaker 4: played rugby. Yeah, did you live in the same community
Speaker 4: as your grandparents for your uncle's and a no, no, no,
Speaker 4: And I didn't really might No, I didn't different sort
Speaker 4: of set up for us. It was more just because
Speaker 4: my dad would. My parents moved to Rua and that's
Speaker 4: where we were raised. But it was a pretty straightforward
Speaker 4: existence I think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was as in, you know, christ Church
Speaker 3: and my family were all in Milton still, so I
Speaker 3: had that, you know, was my kids werening around their
Speaker 3: uncles and aunties and grandparents immediately.
Speaker 4: How much difference does it actually make having those sorts
Speaker 4: of intruse family connections, you.
Speaker 3: Know, from each run by themselves, don't necessarily make or
Speaker 3: break the situation. So can we talk about risk and
Speaker 3: resiliency factors. It's really a balance between those. So certainly
Speaker 3: living in the same community as your grandparents and stuff.
Speaker 3: As a resiliency factor, you've got a relationship as a
Speaker 3: host with someone that loves you, sort of like a
Speaker 3: parent does outside the home, you know, the different perspective.
Speaker 3: So I just think how much my grandparents are rich
Speaker 3: my life. I would hate to have not had my
Speaker 3: grandparents yeah, well, I think.
Speaker 4: Probably because my dad had me quite late, so my
Speaker 4: grandparents were reasonably old. They were always sort of where
Speaker 4: some grandparents I mean, you know, they can be pretty
Speaker 4: youthful these days.
Speaker 3: That's right, yep, yeah, But you know there's also thing.
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, did your parents separate? How long
Speaker 3: did you have an at home parent for? You know,
Speaker 3: bilingual brains are much more resilient to know everything basically,
Speaker 3: So you have to weigh up all of those things.
Speaker 3: You know, what's there any trauma in your life? How
Speaker 3: many risk factors did you have? Are your parents or
Speaker 3: have they ever been to jail? How either your parents
Speaker 3: have a better foster care? Do you move a lot?
Speaker 3: And you know there's lots of risk factors, but resiliency
Speaker 3: factors are you know, like I say, having grandparents around.
Speaker 3: The longer you have an at home parent that you know,
Speaker 3: the more resilient you are. Country school can give you
Speaker 3: resilience because you have the same teacher for three or
Speaker 3: four years.
Speaker 4: It can give you resilience.
Speaker 3: Did you say, yeah, well, but assuming that the teacher
Speaker 3: is of reasonable quality, if the teacher's a teacher, than
Speaker 3: having them three years if someone you don't like and
Speaker 3: are scared of would obviously not be good. But the
Speaker 3: most teachers you aren't. So even an average teacher and
Speaker 3: three years forms a high quality relationship with you. And
Speaker 3: that's the number one factor that really determines how well
Speaker 3: kids do in school, not the parents' qualifications, or the ratio,
Speaker 3: or the teacher a starf or anything else we measure. The
Speaker 3: number one factor is the quality of the relationship with
Speaker 3: the teacher. So, you know, human beings, relationship creatures. So
Speaker 3: if you love your teacher and want to please them,
Speaker 3: you'll do so much better in education than if you're
Speaker 3: detached and they don't know you, and it's just an abstract,
Speaker 3: logical thing you're trying to do with your brother.
Speaker 4: We've covered on a few topics. I was just thinking
Speaker 4: maybe the way I'd ask that first question is the
Speaker 4: wrong way around them, because I had the idea because
Speaker 4: I can think of parents, you know, the question, are
Speaker 4: we making parenting harder than it needs to be? And
Speaker 4: I think maybe that's maybe an unfair way of asking
Speaker 4: that question. It's just because we can think of parents
Speaker 4: who always seem to be I don't know what on
Speaker 4: edge trying to try to manage.
Speaker 3: The section are worrying more than we need to?
Speaker 4: Well, I was thinking maybe the question is is that
Speaker 4: it's not are we making parenting harder than it needs
Speaker 4: to be, but as parenting actually just harder because there's
Speaker 4: those things you've outlined, like we've had COVID and the
Speaker 4: changes there social media. Sorry, you're right. Can you hear me? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah I can. Sorry, can you hear me?
Speaker 4: Yep? So I guess maybe we should frame the question differently,
Speaker 4: is parenting Is parenting actually just harder these days?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think it absolutely is just the fact that
Speaker 3: you don't have an parent anymore, so you've got two
Speaker 3: parents at work, and you don't have the grandparents. You know,
Speaker 3: my grandmother wasn't allowed to work, so there was you know,
Speaker 3: because there was just that generation where a granddad would
Speaker 3: at letter. We think that is sexist and outdated now,
Speaker 3: but it meant, you know that my parents had support
Speaker 3: and I had a full time grandmother, and so yeah,
Speaker 3: it is much harder for parents nowadays. Just both of
Speaker 3: them working makes it quite difficult.
Speaker 4: How much of a I mean, sometimes I try and
Speaker 4: keep away from the social media question because it seems
Speaker 4: pot to be popping up so often when it comes
Speaker 4: to peers. But that's a massive influence on kids, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's not a good influence on their mental health.
Speaker 3: You know, we're starting to see more and more the
Speaker 3: evidence stacking up with just about how much damage it's doing,
Speaker 3: and so you know, you're starting to see countries respond
Speaker 3: to that by quitting on legislation and banning it and stuff,
Speaker 3: because it is clear that it is really doing a
Speaker 3: lot of damage to our kids' mental health. I guess
Speaker 3: that would mean at least the ban of kids having
Speaker 3: cell phones at school's not a bad using them at
Speaker 3: school and all. That's not a bad thing then, is it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean that's probably when they're still going to use them,
Speaker 3: so they're probably still going to be exposed to those things,
Speaker 3: but at least their brain is getting a break from
Speaker 3: it if they're not allowed at school. So a good
Speaker 3: thing we.
Speaker 4: Want to hear from you. Do you think that parenting
Speaker 4: is harder than it used to be? Or you know?
Speaker 4: I mean, my question initially, as I started with, was
Speaker 4: are we making parenting harder than it needs to be?
Speaker 4: Which probably is a slightly mischievous question because it's inviting
Speaker 4: some sort of judgment, and I don't really if I
Speaker 4: was to be honest, mean it that way. But are
Speaker 4: there ways that parents can simplify things for themselves? I guess, Nathan,
Speaker 4: even though it's hard the social media and the cell
Speaker 4: phone thing always and I tell you, my kids are
Speaker 4: so great and negotiating you and I think that they're
Speaker 4: pretty well behaved, but even then they they make it
Speaker 4: hard to enforce those rules around phones and social media.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just the nature kids, really, isn't They're supposed
Speaker 3: to test your boundaries and nothing releases more endorphins into
Speaker 3: their brain than the screen. So of course that's the
Speaker 3: thing that they're going to want mainly, and they're going
Speaker 3: to fight back against restrictions. But I think, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, I always looked at the research for answers,
Speaker 3: not just identifying what the problem is, in the research
Speaker 3: that tells us how we can protect our kids from there,
Speaker 3: and there is quite clearly because kids that come from
Speaker 3: a home where there's two hours a day device free time,
Speaker 3: so no phones or cell phone or computer between four
Speaker 3: and six or something that really largely takes outside the
Speaker 3: at risk group for anxiety and depression statistically, So when
Speaker 3: schools are saying, no cell phone. If they have two
Speaker 3: hours consistent time, they're going to be on computers and stuff, though,
Speaker 3: So this needs to be two hours without media to
Speaker 3: actually give your brain a rest from screens for a solid,
Speaker 3: predictable two hours every day. With my kids, we used
Speaker 3: to do it four to six because that's when I
Speaker 3: was cooking tea and wanted them to help, and that's
Speaker 3: when you do a lot of the interaction, I suppose,
Speaker 3: and it's interaction that builds brains, not screens. So we
Speaker 3: do four to six. I negotiated it with the kids.
Speaker 3: You know, they tried to go for three am to
Speaker 3: five am, but it's like, no, you have to be
Speaker 3: awake when you don't have your device sex every day.
Speaker 3: And they worked well, and they did fight back for
Speaker 3: a start, but when I was consistent with it, and
Speaker 3: I also put my own cell phone down and didn't
Speaker 3: go on the computer at that time and modeled it,
Speaker 3: I soon got used to it as a routine.
Speaker 4: Do you think that's possibly There'd be a lot of
Speaker 4: parents listening here be going well, that's that's fine. That
Speaker 4: might have been ten or fifteen years ago or something,
Speaker 4: but now you know, kids homework, they come home with
Speaker 4: homework and most of them it's all it's all on
Speaker 4: a screen.
Speaker 3: Well, they're not homework from the time they get home
Speaker 3: until they go to bed, so there's still two hours
Speaker 3: and they'd have a device for a time. They also
Speaker 3: have to you know, they've usually got sports to play,
Speaker 3: or they've got you know, other activities they can do,
Speaker 3: and so they schedule them and that two hours.
Speaker 4: You know, where is the evidence that you find useful
Speaker 4: to roll out to parents, because you know, parents will
Speaker 4: power sometimes can be worn down by kids. It's like,
Speaker 4: well it's kids are well, kids of bloody convincing out.
Speaker 4: They their persuasive, their pain and all that, and then
Speaker 4: every now and again mum or dad will just go, okay,
Speaker 4: look have your phoned for a bit, but what is
Speaker 4: the latest as far as you know and what we
Speaker 4: know on the dangers of that.
Speaker 3: The danger is a lot. You know, I tend to
Speaker 3: look at the absence of like of parents. You know,
Speaker 3: when we look at Farnes, the access have got to
Speaker 3: social media and the content and that is warping their
Speaker 3: sense of reality. Because during adolescence it's very easy to
Speaker 3: warp that sense of reality. It's a very complex things
Speaker 3: from a brain point of view, because really, what you
Speaker 3: and I are seeing in front of us is actually
Speaker 3: a construction in our frontal cortex, you know, So it's
Speaker 3: easy for them to construct a false reality. That means,
Speaker 3: you know, in a broad example, the kids growing up
Speaker 3: watching pornography and thinking that that's how females actually respond.
Speaker 3: Then if they don't have a conversation with usually a
Speaker 3: parent or someone that just has to simply point out
Speaker 3: and develop that critical lens that says, you realize that
Speaker 3: that's not made. Women don't make that, and the women
Speaker 3: are made by men for men, with the women saying
Speaker 3: things and men are going to say and women don't,
Speaker 3: and that's not real intimacy. And as long as someone
Speaker 3: has that conversation with them, that seems to protect them
Speaker 3: from it. So you could argue it's not the social media,
Speaker 3: it's the lack of.
Speaker 4: The lack of lack of any other input.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lack of developing that critical lends. Maybe because
Speaker 3: parents don't want to talk about it because it's an
Speaker 3: uncomfortable subject, but those are the sort of risks. They
Speaker 3: also compare themselves and believe other people's lives, so they
Speaker 3: think they're supposed to be having a life like Kim
Speaker 3: Kardashian and really believe that someone like is similar to
Speaker 3: that as happy all the time and always fulfilled and
Speaker 3: they get and that comparative thing is what has a
Speaker 3: been contributed to their anxiety and depression?
Speaker 4: Yeah, because not many be people post on Instagram. I'm
Speaker 4: sort of having an average sort of day. It's all.
Speaker 4: It's all that perfection, isn't It either that or it's
Speaker 4: intense grief. But there's no sort of there's no normal,
Speaker 4: is there?
Speaker 3: No, there isn't. There's a very little you know, just blah,
Speaker 3: this is how it is. Because people don't hear that.
Speaker 3: That's not very exciting.
Speaker 4: Okay, look, we want to take your cause on this.
Speaker 4: Eight hundred eighty ten eighty. Do you think I mean
Speaker 4: we've we've probably drifted away from my question a little bit,
Speaker 4: but I think in terms of trying to make parenting
Speaker 4: a little simpler, do you think there's a way of
Speaker 4: making things simpler in terms of just controlling your kids
Speaker 4: access to social media and all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 4: because it feels like the easy way out just to
Speaker 4: let them do whatever. But from my own point of view,
Speaker 4: it's definitely anything, but so we'll take your calls on
Speaker 4: this eight hundred eighty ten and eighty text nine to
Speaker 4: nine two. This is the Parents Squad, News Talks. He'd
Speaker 4: be eight hundred eight ten and eighty back in a
Speaker 4: mow and welcome back to the Parenting the Parents Squad.
Speaker 4: This is News Talks eight hundred eight ten and eighty.
Speaker 4: Simple question. Actually I've changed it since this we started,
Speaker 4: I said. My initial question that I thought we'd explore
Speaker 4: is are we making parenting harder than it used to be?
Speaker 4: But actually the simpler question is is it harder than
Speaker 4: it used to be? And if so, why and what
Speaker 4: can we do to make things a bit simpler. Let's
Speaker 4: go to Nathan Wallace's my guest by the way, and Karen, Hello.
Speaker 2: Oh goodness thing, great topic. I was fortunate enough to
Speaker 2: see Nathan Wallace and my babies were very young and
Speaker 2: took on board a lot of what he said. So
Speaker 2: thank you for your input.
Speaker 4: What made you go to see what? What did you say?
Speaker 4: What was Nathan talking about back when you saw him?
Speaker 2: Back then it was the first three years and brain
Speaker 2: development and attached parenting and being present with your child.
Speaker 2: And one of the questions I actually are well he
Speaker 2: was talking about back.
Speaker 4: Then was nothing with us now anyway, I've just got
Speaker 4: chick there, aren't you? Nathan. Absolutely, it was so quiet.
Speaker 4: I was like, where's he comb?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I job, thank you, but it obviously didn't come up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just how how it takes for repetition to create
Speaker 2: neural pathways? Back then and at the time, my son
Speaker 2: was high tod so to speak, and he would drop
Speaker 2: his spone and I'd pick it up, and he would
Speaker 2: drop it and I'd pick it up. And I remember saying,
Speaker 2: how many times as this neural pathway going to take
Speaker 2: before it's created? And you set up to ninety seven
Speaker 2: but not necessarily all at the same time to get
Speaker 2: that action. So this releads into your question today, how
Speaker 2: hard is it to keep them off screen? Our kids
Speaker 2: went full fire into it when they got to high
Speaker 2: school because that was the norm, and they couldn't get
Speaker 2: away with it, not away with it, gets away from
Speaker 2: it because if you didn't partake in it, you were
Speaker 2: seen as an outsider and sorry that someone's being So
Speaker 2: they went really high on their dopamine hurts. And then
Speaker 2: now the backing off and I went to the teacher
Speaker 2: parent interview at one of the christ At schools and
Speaker 2: I won't say which one it is, and I went
Speaker 2: to the art teacher. I said, how are you finding
Speaker 2: these kids during art given that the brains are used
Speaker 2: to going at a higher speed and it's really hard
Speaker 2: for them to switch off to engage in something quite slow.
Speaker 2: And he says, you know what, he said, Did they
Speaker 2: get to that art class and they don't want to
Speaker 2: leave because they've had too much screen time?
Speaker 4: That sort of doesn't surprise me as much as you
Speaker 4: think it might. Actually, what do you you, Nathan?
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I think the brain's also seeking variety and
Speaker 3: they kind of know that they don't have the option
Speaker 3: in art class and that's a bit easier for teachers
Speaker 3: and parents in that way that they can't argue their
Speaker 3: way out of that class. They are going to be
Speaker 3: doing art for an hour, so there's a level of
Speaker 3: acceptance which makes them engage a bit easier.
Speaker 4: To How did you deal with the whole device thing
Speaker 4: for your kids anyway, Karen once they got to high school.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll give you a really big reaction that it
Speaker 2: cares because I was really firm on it and tried
Speaker 2: to be very like those seventeen and fifteen at the moment,
Speaker 2: and my son was on screen, and I gave them
Speaker 2: like three or four warnings, I'm going to turn the
Speaker 2: endosne off. You need to get off, and he didn't,
Speaker 2: so I just turned it off. That The anger that
Speaker 2: came back at May was frightening. I've never done that before.
Speaker 2: I never had to put my foot down like that,
Speaker 2: but him losing their social connection in a peer group
Speaker 2: and having no control over there was really quite quite
Speaker 2: scary actually.
Speaker 4: Actually, Karen, I think what you've described there is the
Speaker 4: reason that so many parents will have a crack at
Speaker 4: getting their kids off the devices, but they often capitulate
Speaker 4: because they are They just don't want that, I don't know,
Speaker 4: different creature to suddenly appear. Is there something in that, Nathan, Yeah,
Speaker 4: absolutely there is.
Speaker 3: And the difference between punishment and consequence. There's no amount
Speaker 3: of punishment's good, but no one enjoys punishment. Punishment is
Speaker 3: just a low quality relationship, but consequence they absolutely need.
Speaker 3: So the difference between punishment and consequence is predictability. If
Speaker 3: I said to the child, you know, this is what's
Speaker 3: going to happen, and in another time when they're nice
Speaker 3: and calm that this is the process, and I'm going
Speaker 3: to tell you get off the internet. You need to
Speaker 3: get off the internet. You know, you've got five minutes
Speaker 3: to get off the internet. I will give you two warnings.
Speaker 3: You know, on the third warning, if you're not off
Speaker 3: the internet, I'm just going to simply switch off the internet.
Speaker 3: And that's what's going.
Speaker 2: I approached it and it just went the next level.
Speaker 4: And to be honest, did that stop you being enforcing
Speaker 4: the same rules another time because of its reaction? Karen?
Speaker 2: It did just because I didn't have any backups. I
Speaker 2: was a single mom. Okay, so my approach was minimized.
Speaker 2: I guess just because of you know, you've got testosterone,
Speaker 2: you've got brain development, you've got social peer pressure and
Speaker 2: all the rest of it. And I just.
Speaker 3: I can understand that it makes it more complicated.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I said that that didn't go well for both
Speaker 2: of us and that you know, it can't happen again,
Speaker 2: And that was with it.
Speaker 3: You went back to him and said at another time
Speaker 3: when he was calm, that's not okay. And again, so
Speaker 3: you know that means an answer to terms question. You
Speaker 3: didn't just really let them away with it and say well, okay,
Speaker 3: then you can be on the internet. You did go back.
Speaker 2: I've always tried to have engaged, not to contracts in
Speaker 2: the house. You know that there's agreement on time frames
Speaker 2: and how we're going to go through things.
Speaker 3: But yeah, if you don't want a confrontation, I think
Speaker 3: you did well to back off at that time. You
Speaker 3: don't need confrontations without teenagers, especially when they are angry
Speaker 3: like that. So waiting and just you know, just engaging
Speaker 3: and waiting until another time when he is and that
Speaker 3: might be more than twenty four hours later, but as
Speaker 3: long as you do readdress it, you bring it up
Speaker 3: and say, hey, that's not okay. There needs to be
Speaker 3: a consequence that agreement. What are we going to do
Speaker 3: next time? Because I felt quite threatened but that situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's okay for me to feel threatened
Speaker 3: my son, and I don't think that's something you want
Speaker 3: to do to your mother. So what can we do
Speaker 3: next time to make sure that you control that reaction?
Speaker 3: But because it is going to happen, there's my job
Speaker 3: as a parent.
Speaker 4: Actually, I've got a text Karen and Nathan just based
Speaker 4: on what you were saying that you said you might
Speaker 4: have given him three warnings. Somebody said, Tim and Nathan,
Speaker 4: what do you think is three or four warnings a mistake?
Speaker 4: How many warnings should you give your kids when you
Speaker 4: want them to act on something? Because three three of
Speaker 4: I'm not having a I'm not.
Speaker 2: Having I guess it's it's almost eluting, it isn't it?
Speaker 2: When you do well?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm curious. I mean, what's the effective number
Speaker 4: of warnings? There's three sounds. If I'm going to give
Speaker 4: three warnings, I'm thinking I'm not backing myself up there.
Speaker 4: I think i'd need to sell ye. What do you reckon, Nathan?
Speaker 4: How many?
Speaker 3: He worried? Again? Is predictability? You agree on how many
Speaker 3: warnings it's going to be because and that's age appropriate
Speaker 3: and after child's only seven, and they might need four
Speaker 3: warnings if the child's come But I think three warnings
Speaker 3: is not as Also, you're helping them. They are a teenager.
Speaker 3: It is difficult to regulate their behavior. It is difficult
Speaker 3: to put it down, so it's difficult to take time.
Speaker 3: So for if three is too many for you, then
Speaker 3: tells them there's going to be two warnings. But the
Speaker 3: key term it's called make it predictable, and you don't
Speaker 3: want to set them up for failure. You don't want
Speaker 3: to have to do the turn the power off, you know,
Speaker 3: so you want to make it as easy as possible.
Speaker 3: If you think two is better or three is better,
Speaker 3: number doesn't matter as long as I agree.
Speaker 4: It's a funny one because there is thanks for your call,
Speaker 4: cam by the way, I appreciate it. It's an interesting one
Speaker 4: because if I think if my kids, if I say, hey, look,
Speaker 4: can you get off the phone? I want you off
Speaker 4: in five minutes, And if I come back and they're
Speaker 4: still on, I'll say okay, So I don't know if
Speaker 4: that's just a request. Then I follow up with a
Speaker 4: warning and then the consequence, So is that three or two?
Speaker 4: I'm just trying to work it out, because you know what,
Speaker 4: I think there's one of those things that kids those
Speaker 4: at the times, we kids can say, oh hang on,
Speaker 4: you didn't give me enough warning and all those sorts
Speaker 4: of things. So you really need to be certain of
Speaker 4: your ground, don't you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's just about for me, like if I
Speaker 3: said I need you off the phone in five minutes,
Speaker 3: I'd expect them to be after the phone in five minutes.
Speaker 3: When I got back and they were still on the phone,
Speaker 3: I would just say, you need to hang up now, please.
Speaker 3: I've give you a five minute warning, I need to
Speaker 3: phone now, and I'd stand there and wait for it,
Speaker 3: and you know, make them finish the conversation because you
Speaker 3: want to follow through on what you said, not then
Speaker 3: drag it out longer because they encourage them to negotiat
Speaker 3: next time, I was going to drag it out longer.
Speaker 3: I'd say I need that phone in five minutes. When
Speaker 3: I come back in five minutes, if you're not off
Speaker 3: the phone, you'll have another two minutes. Finish that conversation,
Speaker 3: and then I'm going to be You know, it has
Speaker 3: to be predictable, so stick with what you such.
Speaker 4: Wouldn't it be so lovely if they'd just say, yep,
Speaker 4: right done, dad. It's the constantly negotiations. I think it
Speaker 4: is well.
Speaker 3: I think that caust negotiation is because we deviate from
Speaker 3: that predectability. We sometimes get two warnings and three warnings
Speaker 3: and four warnings, and so the child doesn't know. Just
Speaker 3: be consistent.
Speaker 4: And the other thing is if there is what if
Speaker 4: they do have a meltdown on something I think for me,
Speaker 4: I would think it's best not to buy into that.
Speaker 4: I literally just say, listen, you need to take yourself
Speaker 4: off to your room. We're not going to talk about
Speaker 4: it or just remove them. I don't try and have
Speaker 4: any I generally try not to have a conflict with them.
Speaker 3: No, you don't want to do you?
Speaker 4: Well, that's that's another That's another thing you get sucked
Speaker 4: into as a parent, though, because if they really annoy you.
Speaker 4: But I just sort of think, right, no, no, tell
Speaker 4: you what. I'm grumpy. You go in there. I'll stay
Speaker 4: here and I'll come and talk to you in five minutes. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 4: all good, All good. Somebody I've got a few texts.
Speaker 4: Somebody's just I'll read that some of these bits correspondents,
Speaker 4: it says that we are having a crack at us
Speaker 4: just saying we have we're playing as if we have
Speaker 4: all the answers. Parenting is recogniz in what your offsprings,
Speaker 4: talents are not what you want them to be. I'm
Speaker 4: not sure if that's quite the same conversation we've been having.
Speaker 3: Maybe I can still recollect what yes you means that
Speaker 3: it's like kids aren't just it's not an exact science,
Speaker 3: and you're not just telling them who they are. They've
Speaker 3: got their own unique temperament and their own unique set
Speaker 3: of talents and stuff, and it is about negotiating that
Speaker 3: stuff and having a relationship with them. And then it
Speaker 3: does just raisially right. No one does have all the answers.
Speaker 3: No one has perfect parenting, and that's kind of what
Speaker 3: makes it hard, you know, it is for I mean,
Speaker 3: I've got a lot of skills and training, and I
Speaker 3: found it really hard, and I wasn't the perfect parent,
Speaker 3: and you know, so much was that temperament I found
Speaker 3: some of my kids. You know, I think two of
Speaker 3: my kids had I found relatively easy to parent in
Speaker 3: comparison to one of the other ones. It had quite
Speaker 3: a different temperament and seem to not respond to all
Speaker 3: that stuff that I talk about about, like you know,
Speaker 3: predictability and as long as they are involved in making
Speaker 3: the boundary and to set the calm time, those other
Speaker 3: one kind of accept that they might argue a little bit.
Speaker 3: One of them just wanted to seem to want to
Speaker 3: challenge every single time and argument. They just seem to
Speaker 3: want to fight. And so it is very much not
Speaker 3: just what you say as a parent, but who you're
Speaker 3: interacting with.
Speaker 4: Did you sort of given that that's the space you
Speaker 4: work in. I mean, because it's a bit like a
Speaker 4: bustman's holiday. You know, you'd have your as a neuroscience
Speaker 4: educator be chatting to parents about ideas and things to
Speaker 4: support good parenting, all that sort of thing. What was
Speaker 4: it like when you went home and would you sort
Speaker 4: of go ah your internal verse, would you just tell
Speaker 4: you know, a little Nathan inside to shut up because
Speaker 4: you were.
Speaker 3: Just kind of all of those things. I mean, the
Speaker 3: reason I ended out in a job like this is
Speaker 3: because I really loved kids, and I really loved parenting,
Speaker 3: and I trained as a teacher and stuff, so I
Speaker 3: started on the positive side of you know, really valuing them,
Speaker 3: but then also a normal parent who has an emotional
Speaker 3: reaction and you know, and we'll want to get angry.
Speaker 3: But most of the time, because of the training and stuff,
Speaker 3: I could mitigate that, which illusions I was, you know,
Speaker 3: I lose a plot and swear at the kids. Yeah,
Speaker 3: sometimes it was easier to tell the stuff objectively, so
Speaker 3: I knew what to do ninety percent of the time.
Speaker 3: But I'm still ten percent of the time didn't follow
Speaker 3: our own advice and you know, might let my emotions
Speaker 3: take over. I think the difference is, I mean I
Speaker 3: never hit them or anything. No, but the difference is
Speaker 3: that my emotions did take over, and I swore at them.
Speaker 3: I was all right to go and apologize afterwards and
Speaker 3: say it wasn't really okay that I spoke by that
Speaker 3: I lost the plot.
Speaker 4: Well that that that seems intuitively fine in a way
Speaker 4: because it also demonstrates the example of this is what
Speaker 4: I expect you to do when you cross the line.
Speaker 4: You apologize and you make Yeah. Yeah, I just the
Speaker 4: whole hell, you know. On the on the side of
Speaker 4: you know, parents worrying about doing the well, about just
Speaker 4: about doing the best job that they can. The helicopter
Speaker 4: parenting side, where does that, where does that kick in?
Speaker 4: And when's it sort of a problem?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean everyone should be a helicopter parent with
Speaker 3: a newborn baby. Yeah, so, you know, like that's an brainer.
Speaker 3: I think it's about one of the part of it's
Speaker 3: about there letting them take risk. We know that dad's
Speaker 3: often you know, involve in a rougher play and do
Speaker 3: more risk taking, and how beneficial that is to children's overall,
Speaker 3: well beound. I think what we talk about in neuroscience.
Speaker 3: I see you've got Catherine Burketts some articles from Catherine
Speaker 3: on your page.
Speaker 4: You do a bit of work with Catherine, don't you.
Speaker 3: YEA, yeah, I love Catherine. She's great. You know, we're
Speaker 3: very much on the same page. And yeah, we've word
Speaker 3: together lots over the years. But yeah, she often talks
Speaker 3: about tolerable and toxic stress.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I.
Speaker 3: Remember listening to her once, and it's a neuroscience term.
Speaker 3: The tolerable stress that you sort of stress that you
Speaker 3: get support with and you get over. It makes you resilient,
Speaker 3: whereas toxic stress is what traumatizes you at least to
Speaker 3: all those negative outcomes. So an example that adults us
Speaker 3: is like turning the shower you've had a shower, and
Speaker 3: then turning it cold before you get out. Yeah, that's stressful,
Speaker 3: but it's tolerable stress. And what you generally find after
Speaker 3: that is you get a big burst of endorphins and
Speaker 3: feel really good after it is that's your brain's response
Speaker 3: to tolerateble stress. So I mean that's a physical example,
Speaker 3: but tolerable stress is good for people. It makes kids resilient.
Speaker 3: You don't want your kids don't have to be stress free.
Speaker 3: You know, that's not really the ideal. It's that there
Speaker 3: is life does involve stress, but you just want to
Speaker 3: make sure those kids stress is tolerable. And if you're
Speaker 3: a helicopter parent, you might be trying to make them
Speaker 3: stress free and it might be not letting them take it.
Speaker 3: Rests are going to be helpful for their development. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's hard to say when that is and what.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's I think going from those years,
Speaker 4: probably from when they're about eleven and twelve through to
Speaker 4: on their middle teenagers as sort of the time when
Speaker 4: you know you've really got that gradual journey and letting go,
Speaker 4: and you know, because beyond that, obviously there's that legal
Speaker 4: age of when you're not supposed to leave them alone,
Speaker 4: which I'm sure parents sort of break that roll a
Speaker 4: little bit when they're twelve and thirteen. I don't know,
Speaker 4: but it is a difficult sort of thing for parents
Speaker 4: when you're so used to especially if you've got you know,
Speaker 4: two or three kids, and you've got one who you've
Speaker 4: still in the habit of really helicoptering, and yet the
Speaker 4: other ones are starting to be like wanting a little
Speaker 4: bit more freedom.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it tends to be a temperament type. You know,
Speaker 3: a certain parent that's going to be the helicopter parent
Speaker 3: tends to be a helicopter to all of them and
Speaker 3: are slightly over involved in all of the kids at
Speaker 3: their different stages.
Speaker 4: The helicopter parents are where are where they're doing it.
Speaker 4: The ones that are sort of well they should be
Speaker 4: because the mind you their kids are all resisting them
Speaker 4: all the time, but they'd be getting quite a bit
Speaker 4: of pushback like mam, and why won't you let me go?
Speaker 4: And stat such and such as place or why won't
Speaker 4: you let me do that?
Speaker 3: And I suppose you know, are the kids being neglected
Speaker 3: but neglect for parents? Are they aware of it? You know,
Speaker 3: because you get to the ends of the spectrum, you
Speaker 3: get the too much attention and the too little attention,
Speaker 3: And it's really the too little attention that fills up
Speaker 3: our prisons have got to say, not the too much Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but yeah, I think it probably comes from a good place,
Speaker 3: but it's getting there educated and realizing that they're not
Speaker 3: actually helping their child's development by doing that, and they're
Speaker 3: kind of giving their child the message you are incompetent
Speaker 3: because I have to watch every single thing that you do.
Speaker 3: And if you give them that message, they'll believe it
Speaker 3: and they'll be in. So you want the competent and
Speaker 3: capable and you need to get them room to do
Speaker 3: that and take risks.
Speaker 4: And yeah, ye hey, Nathan, if people want to check
Speaker 4: out the work you do, where's the because actually you
Speaker 4: I think you've mentioned Katherine Burkett. You do a bit
Speaker 4: of work from with her from time to time. But
Speaker 4: if people want to check out what the work you do,
Speaker 4: what's the best way.
Speaker 3: To If we're trying to keep stuff up to date
Speaker 3: on the web page, Nathan Dollis Nathan Wallace dot com
Speaker 3: on there, I do stuff through NIB so they produced
Speaker 3: quite a few good parenting resources that are all available
Speaker 3: on the NIB website, you know, as well as you
Speaker 3: know on my website. Usually just going to YouTube and
Speaker 3: put in my name is actually what a lot of
Speaker 3: people do, just randomless select stuff from there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, cool, Hey, look, thanks so much for your
Speaker 4: time this afternoon. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: I appreciate it too, thanks.
Speaker 4: To no good on you. We'll chat again that Nathan
Speaker 4: Wallace We will be back shortly. By the way, if
Speaker 4: you've missed any of the previous hours and the conversations
Speaker 4: that we've been having, you can go to our website
Speaker 4: or go to iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective. Where
Speaker 4: As I say, Wereview podcast. We'll be back to Wrap
Speaker 4: Sport in just a moment. Nathan Limb joins us. This
Speaker 4: is News Talk sed B. It is coming up to
Speaker 4: eighteen minutes to six.
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