1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, a name 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: you can trust locally and globally. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 2: Joining me on the Huddle tonight is Jordan Williams from 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 2: the Taxpayers Union and Jack Tame, host of Q and 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: A on TV and Z and here on News Talks 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: There Be as well. Good evening. Hello you s right 7 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: good to have you on the show. Jordan, I'll start 8 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 2: with you. Is any of what you just heard going 9 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: to do anything. 10 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 3: Well? I think that we've got a great test case 11 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 3: in Australia that we can take away and see approach. 12 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 3: It's been the social media van for the under sixteens 13 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 3: has been something that in the Free Speech Union, the 14 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 3: board have been staffed, have been pretty actively debating. I'm 15 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 3: a free speech absolutist, but I think that reasonal minds 16 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 3: can differ on it on the basis that whether human 17 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 3: rights are only applicable to adults or applicable to all, 18 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 3: I think that there'd be many parents out there that 19 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 3: would generally be pretty supportive of free speech and pretty 20 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: concerned about government over regulation or regulation of what you 21 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 3: posted online when you look at the UK, but might 22 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 3: well be sympathetic to the arguments that actually social media 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 3: does a tremendous amount of harm to kids. 24 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think Jack, if you was if you 25 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: were that worried about your kid in social media, you 26 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: just wouldn't get them a fine, wouldn't you. 27 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 4: Ah. I, First of all, I totally agree. I'm just one 28 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 4: hundred percent on the parents need to step up here 29 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 4: as well. Camp that being said, I don't have teenagers yet, 30 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 4: so I can imagine that there's going to be a 31 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 4: bit more pressure coming down the line. It's all well 32 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 4: and good to say parents should be doing more, when 33 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 4: you do you don't have the teenagers yet. I think 34 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 4: a couple of things. First of all, I don't see 35 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 4: why we can't wait six or twelve months and just 36 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 4: see how things go in Australia. Like yep, if you 37 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 4: want to be a fast follower, absolutely, but let's make 38 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 4: sure we see what works and what doesn't in Australia 39 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 4: before we leap to some conclusion. Second of all, if 40 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 4: you think that regulating the social media giants and the 41 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 4: digital giants is important, might I suggest that taxing them 42 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 4: properly could be very high up on the list of 43 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 4: things we need to be doing. And Third, of all, 44 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 4: I'm actually very closely aligned with Jordan when it comes 45 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 4: to free speech, and I do think there are some 46 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 4: pretty big free speech questions here that in my mind 47 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 4: at least aren't yet resolved. So you know, I'm not 48 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 4: convinced that necessarily an outright ban is going to achieve 49 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 4: what we want it to achieve, but I'm open minded 50 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 4: at this stage. Wait and see how things go in Australia. 51 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 4: See if alternative social media platforms pop up for the kids, 52 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 4: and I reckon the six or twelve months, we make 53 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 4: a call. 54 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, listening to that interview with have you interviewed Carl before? 55 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: Jack? 56 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 2: I'm sure you have. I had an interviewed him before. 57 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I might have. 58 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, there was a lot of learnings, a lot 59 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: of waffle talk. It well lost me a little bit. 60 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 4: I'm not a fan of it. I'm not a fan 61 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 4: of the of the term learnings. I'm certainly not a 62 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 4: fan of the term learnings. I much prefer that the 63 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 4: old fashioned lesson. That being said, if the principle is 64 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 4: taking some lessons from Australia and learning from their experience, 65 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 4: then I'm very much. 66 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, we did an interview with it. We sit down 67 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 3: with new MPs at the beginning of each new Parliament 68 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: for our podcast for MP's and Decks, and he was 69 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: actually one of the ones that has had a surprising 70 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: business background. But as obviously as a backbench MP seldom 71 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 3: gets into the media. I'd give him a chance. 72 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: Ry, Okay, all right, he probably agreed. Do you know 73 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: what it is? He's been sitting in a select committee 74 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 2: for too long and now he's been writing a select 75 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 2: committee report and he sounds like a select committee. I 76 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: think that might be a problem. 77 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: William hanging around with too many bureaucrats exactly. 78 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: Jordan Williams and Jack Tame back on the huddle in 79 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: just a sec. 80 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty the only truly. 81 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: Global brand, thirteen minutes away from six on News talks 82 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: B Jordan Williams from the Taxpayers Union, Jack Tame You 83 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: know Jack, he's here as well. So the debate between 84 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: Nicola and Ruth, Jack, why do you think Nicka. I 85 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: understand why Ruth Richardson has agreed to do it, but 86 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: why would Nicola even suggest doing something like that? But 87 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: we'll go to Jordan. Jordan, what do you think the 88 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: motive is for Nichola Willis. 89 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 3: Well, I think that the facts aren't on Nichola Willis's side. 90 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 3: You know, she promised the cutspending, she's increased it. She 91 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: promised to reduce borrowing, but depending on how you measure, 92 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 3: it's either about the same or it's actually out of 93 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 3: borrowing at a faster rate. And she keeps kicking back 94 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 3: the surplus into touch and our treasury are getting concerned 95 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: that the fiscal deficits even larger. So what she's doing 96 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 3: is doing what Grant Robinson would do, really and reaching 97 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: to a sort of nineteen nineties far left sort of 98 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 3: caricature of what Ruth did to get the books back 99 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 3: into shape, rather than actually debate the facts. There's a 100 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 3: bit of funny business going on now. We have expressed publicly, 101 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 3: you know, Nichola Willis said yesterday or debate you anywhere, anytime, 102 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: and we've said great, Well, we've had offers from newstalk' 103 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: thereb to debate next Thursday, after the opening of the books. 104 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 3: That's our preference. But now there's all sorts of things about, 105 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 3: oh well, no, we want to do next year with 106 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 3: perhaps TVNZ or the spin off, which is a taxpayer 107 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 3: fundedlistical website. No, let's debate the books is an opening 108 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 3: of the books next week. Rumor around town is that 109 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: Nikola Willis is going to kick the surplus down yet 110 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 3: another year. So when she got elected, the surplus was 111 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 3: four years away, it's still four years away, and next 112 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 3: week it's probably five years away. Well that's what we 113 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 3: should be debating. But I mean, from our perspective, the 114 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 3: purpose of our campaign that's launching tomorrow is to inject 115 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: the fiscal truths the you know, the elephants in the room. 116 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 3: While there's lots of talk of asterety and cutting back 117 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: in fact, again, as Trusury pointed out, the only savings 118 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,799 Speaker 3: that Nichola Willis has made have actually just been deployed 119 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 3: our square and overall the spending is up and the 120 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 3: fiscal position is worse. And look, as much as the 121 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: National Party might be upset with us pointing it out, 122 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 3: that's not what the platform was well and what National Party. 123 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 2: Is not what was on the tracker, not what was 124 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 2: written on the packer. Jack, I understand you're back with 125 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 2: this now. Nice to have you here. 126 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 4: Amazing what happens when you when you turn them you 127 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 4: buston off again. Hey, how you go able to communicate? 128 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: It's an incredible feature. Hey, I think that that this 129 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: is interesting the Nicola Willis think because it's like, you 130 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: know that the ministers don't normally like to debate well anyone, 131 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 2: unless they absolutely have to do in an election year. 132 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: So it's like, why would you do this? Do you 133 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: think there's something about Do you think she accidentally said, 134 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: oh yeah, I should debate her? Or do you think 135 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 2: this was tactical? And do you think having a debate 136 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: between the right and the further right is actually quite 137 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: a good way to frame come on, but a good 138 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 2: way to frame a debate heading into an election year. 139 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 4: Well, so, first of all, I don't think it was 140 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 4: a mistake. I think if it were a mistake, then 141 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 4: maybe agreeing would be one thing. But the fact that 142 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 4: she said anywhere anytime, I think Nicola Willis, we can 143 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 4: all agree it's probably smart enough that she wouldn't have 144 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 4: said those words unless she actually meant them. Now, whether 145 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 4: or not she actually follows through, I guess we'll find 146 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 4: out next Thursday afternoon. We called it last she didn't 147 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 4: see us, Okay, okay, okay, let's give her the benefit 148 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 4: of the doubt on that front, just just for the 149 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 4: sake of argument, then I would say, from her perspective, 150 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 4: and look at the today's poll, the tax Faer you know, 151 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 4: Curier Pole today, Taxai and Curia Pole today. Nikola Willis 152 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 4: is concerned about centrist boss right and if she, if 153 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 4: she is to think about her support in this in 154 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 4: the so called political center, maybe she thinks that actually 155 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 4: a debate with rth Ruth Richardson isn't going to cost 156 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 4: her massive numbers of centrist voss even if she ends 157 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 4: up losing that debate or is perceived to have losed 158 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 4: that debate. Maybe that is the kind of the political 159 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 4: equation in her head right now. I also wonder if 160 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 4: she's just if she's just an insensitive about about being 161 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 4: a text. 162 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: I think it's the format, Jack, I think it's the former. 163 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: I think this is that there is no better opportunity 164 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: for her to make one to make her self look 165 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 2: centrist and to make that you know, say, actually I 166 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: am spending quite a bit so those attacks from the 167 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: left won't stick. But also heading into an election year 168 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: and before our budget next May, saying look how crazy 169 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: labour looks now, you know, we're having this debate about 170 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: how much we should be cutting and look how much 171 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: they want to spend Jordan. 172 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 4: Can I just have one thing and not not not 173 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 4: to do Jordan's job for him, but but I mean, 174 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 4: we'll wait and see whether on a lot of surfaces 175 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 4: and pushed back another year. But let us not also 176 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 4: forget that Nichola Willis changed the accounting measure. So we 177 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 4: had obergal this is how we measured that, the surpluses 178 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 4: and deficit. She pushed it. She changed it to obergall x, 179 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 4: which makes it easier to get to a surplus and 180 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 4: still have had to push that surplus back. 181 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 3: So yeah, on a traditional measure, there's never a surplus. 182 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 3: And that's not again it's not that's not what we 183 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 3: voted for. So it's two things on that, I mean, 184 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 3: on the center side of the problem in the eye. 185 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: The ironic situation is the government is taking political heat 186 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: to perceived austerity because that's what you read about, you know, 187 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 3: in the media and you see in the talking kads. 188 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 3: But they're not getting the political upside of fixing the 189 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 3: economy by getting the boot of big government off the 190 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 3: neck of the economy. The second is the Tomorrow's campaign 191 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 3: is actually quite funny. It's a classic taxpayers Union tang 192 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 3: in cheek campaign with a point underneath us that the 193 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 3: thing that we find incredible is as a result of 194 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: a single piece from Matthew Houton, Nichola Willis has reacted 195 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: and turned Tomorrow's campaign into something absolutely enormous, which she 196 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 3: probably could have laughed it off if she if she 197 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 3: had not engaged. They're great for us and great actually 198 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 3: for taxpayers because of injects. You know, the objective's campaign 199 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 3: was to inject the fiscal truth and point out the 200 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: elephants in the room and each ca the public about 201 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 3: what Treasury is saying, of how bad the situation is, 202 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 3: and that with the greatest respect to Nikola, she's not 203 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 3: as you say, She's not done what it says on 204 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: the pattern. 205 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 2: And we will get a debate out of all of 206 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: this too. Jordan, thank you for that, Jordan Williams and 207 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: the text pacing injectaim from Q and eight. 208 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to 209 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: news Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 210 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,599 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.