WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #270 - February 5th 2025 - Shane Jones 0:00:09.093 --> 0:00:11.973 You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 0:00:12.373 --> 0:00:16.173 Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.693 --> 0:00:19.733 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.773 --> 0:00:24.813 the information, all the debates of the now the Leighton 0:00:24.933 --> 0:00:27.653 Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B. 0:00:28.133 --> 0:00:31.293 Welcome to podcasts two hundred and seventy for February five, 0:00:31.813 --> 0:00:34.813 twenty twenty five, and may I welcome you to the 0:00:34.893 --> 0:00:37.093 seventh year of the Laten Smith Podcast. 0:00:37.693 --> 0:00:37.853 Now. 0:00:37.893 --> 0:00:40.573 At the end of last year, I had the idea 0:00:40.813 --> 0:00:44.093 of leading twenty five with someone whose opinion would not 0:00:44.173 --> 0:00:49.693 only be interesting but also useful and not to forget, entertaining. 0:00:50.173 --> 0:00:53.773 Shane Jones, Deputy Leader of New Zealand. First, I thought 0:00:53.973 --> 0:00:57.773 qualified on all counts. We were due to record on 0:00:57.813 --> 0:01:01.493 the same day that Donald Trump was sworn in, but 0:01:01.613 --> 0:01:06.333 I had technical issues and we had about three different 0:01:06.333 --> 0:01:09.853 attempts and couldn't overcome, so it was done the next day. 0:01:09.973 --> 0:01:13.173 But the reason I mentioned that is because he was 0:01:13.213 --> 0:01:19.053 most courteous, most obliging, in fact extremely obliging, and fulfilled 0:01:19.053 --> 0:01:23.933 my expectations with what I thought he would provide. Now, 0:01:23.973 --> 0:01:26.253 if you're wondering why we recorded that earlier, it was 0:01:26.293 --> 0:01:28.933 because he was going to be tied up at this 0:01:29.013 --> 0:01:33.173 particular time with White TANGI matters now at the back end, 0:01:33.213 --> 0:01:36.573 following the mail room with missus producer, I draw your 0:01:36.613 --> 0:01:40.493 attention to if you don't already know what the present 0:01:40.573 --> 0:01:45.733 government is absconding from in its responsibilities, Well that's my 0:01:45.853 --> 0:01:50.413 interpretation of the way things are coming about. I expect 0:01:50.413 --> 0:01:53.973 that most of you will be agreeable with that, but 0:01:54.173 --> 0:01:56.813 you'll have to make your own judgment call at the time. 0:01:57.213 --> 0:02:01.293 But what is taking place at the moment is I 0:02:01.333 --> 0:02:07.253 believe undesirable and incompetent and a betrayal. And I'm sure 0:02:07.293 --> 0:02:09.893 that most of you will agree, but you'll have to 0:02:09.893 --> 0:02:12.453 make up your own mind and do let me know, 0:02:12.613 --> 0:02:16.493 by the way, So in just a moment, mister Jones. 0:02:22.813 --> 0:02:23.573 Layton Smith. 0:02:24.573 --> 0:02:28.973 Leverrix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. 0:02:29.213 --> 0:02:33.053 Leverix relieves hay fever in skin, allergies or itchy skin. 0:02:33.533 --> 0:02:37.853 It's a dual action antihistamine and has a unique nasal 0:02:38.053 --> 0:02:42.693 decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast relief, and it 0:02:42.773 --> 0:02:45.853 works in under an hour and lasts for over twenty 0:02:45.893 --> 0:02:49.693 four hours. Lebrix is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose, 0:02:50.013 --> 0:02:53.933 deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Lebrix is an 0:02:53.933 --> 0:02:58.293 antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quantity. So next 0:02:58.333 --> 0:03:01.853 time you're in need of an effective antihistamine, call into 0:03:01.893 --> 0:03:07.933 the pharmacy and ask for Leverrix lv Rix levrix and 0:03:08.013 --> 0:03:11.733 always read the label. Takes directed and if symptoms persist, 0:03:11.933 --> 0:03:23.733 see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. Jane Jones is 0:03:23.813 --> 0:03:27.493 the deputy leader of the New Zealand First Party. He 0:03:27.573 --> 0:03:31.533 has a number of number of roles covering energy, finance, 0:03:31.813 --> 0:03:36.533 oceans and fisheries, regional development and resources, Associate Minister for 0:03:36.653 --> 0:03:41.133 some and Minister for others. If you look at his history, 0:03:41.413 --> 0:03:43.893 he's got a hell of a lot of positions. Therefore, 0:03:43.933 --> 0:03:50.173 one presumes experience building and instruction, forestry, immigration, infrastructure, regional 0:03:50.213 --> 0:03:55.853 economic development which continues at the moment, trade, transport, etc. Etc. 0:03:56.853 --> 0:04:00.413 Is also a reputation for being a talented racon term, 0:04:00.533 --> 0:04:03.493 but that may depend on your opinion of the man 0:04:04.093 --> 0:04:07.573 or what he's saying at any given time. So it 0:04:07.733 --> 0:04:09.453 is with the great pleasure I welcome you to the 0:04:09.533 --> 0:04:12.773 Late and Smith Podcast. The first of twenty twenty five, 0:04:13.453 --> 0:04:18.293 and Shane, we're releasing this on the fifth of February, 0:04:18.453 --> 0:04:21.493 the day before White Tangy Day, but we are recording 0:04:21.533 --> 0:04:25.733 it on the twenty second of January. And there's a 0:04:25.773 --> 0:04:27.773 reason that I wanted to outline this and make it 0:04:27.813 --> 0:04:31.933 clear because yesterday both of you and I, separately and 0:04:31.933 --> 0:04:34.853 independently spent quite a bit of quite a bit of 0:04:34.893 --> 0:04:40.813 time watching the inauguration of Donald Trump in Washington, d C. 0:04:41.333 --> 0:04:44.493 So again, welcome to the podcast. What did you take 0:04:44.693 --> 0:04:45.493 out of yesterday? 0:04:46.533 --> 0:04:48.533 Well, greetings, Yes. 0:04:48.573 --> 0:04:53.333 Well, I went out of my way to actually watch 0:04:53.973 --> 0:04:55.013 the speech. 0:04:55.333 --> 0:04:58.413 Live, and then I went back and listened to it again. 0:04:59.813 --> 0:05:04.853 For me, the speech, if I start, there was an 0:05:04.973 --> 0:05:12.333 experience of unmanling af I think what Trump is giving 0:05:12.413 --> 0:05:20.573 voice to and articulating, he is giving license to people, 0:05:21.973 --> 0:05:26.533 not only in the States, but through the OECD through 0:05:26.573 --> 0:05:31.693 a lot of Western countries, to move beyond the culture 0:05:32.453 --> 0:05:39.573 of being shamed, the culture of feeling personally responsible or 0:05:39.653 --> 0:05:45.973 being burdened with a sense of being the author of injustice. 0:05:46.453 --> 0:05:49.693 It may or may not have been perpetrated over centuries, 0:05:50.093 --> 0:05:53.933 and this has been perfected through the woke ideology, and 0:05:54.013 --> 0:05:57.413 he put all of that to the sword yesterday in 0:05:57.453 --> 0:06:01.253 that speech. And I don't think we should underestimate how 0:06:01.293 --> 0:06:07.693 that's going to unfetter and unmanicle a host of constraints 0:06:07.733 --> 0:06:11.453 that have had the effect of censoring people, had the 0:06:11.493 --> 0:06:15.413 effect of causing them to be cocoon. 0:06:15.533 --> 0:06:19.173 And I think nothing else. That's why he won power. 0:06:19.893 --> 0:06:22.733 And I've not heard it put like that before, and 0:06:22.773 --> 0:06:26.093 I congratulate you on it. I think I think you're 0:06:26.133 --> 0:06:30.013 absolutely right. There was plenty of discussion, plenty of print 0:06:30.133 --> 0:06:34.533 with regard to the politicization of the stepping outside the 0:06:34.773 --> 0:06:41.493 usual and arguably accepted boundaries of what that inauguration speech is, 0:06:41.653 --> 0:06:46.133 no matter who the president might might be. But that's him, 0:06:46.573 --> 0:06:51.693 from beginning to end, step outside the norm and fix 0:06:51.773 --> 0:06:55.733 things that appear or really are broken. And there was 0:06:55.773 --> 0:06:58.053 a hell of a lot broken in the United States, 0:06:58.493 --> 0:07:01.733 and as a result, and I think that you will agree, 0:07:01.853 --> 0:07:03.933 as a result, a hell of a lot that's been 0:07:03.973 --> 0:07:05.653 broken elsewhere in the world. 0:07:06.493 --> 0:07:07.533 I couldn't agree more. 0:07:07.893 --> 0:07:12.173 We've got, well, we've got a situation even in our 0:07:13.373 --> 0:07:16.973 fair isles here in the South Pacific, where sure have 0:07:16.973 --> 0:07:21.373 imported some of the excesses that have lighted the United States. 0:07:21.893 --> 0:07:23.293 And we're. 0:07:24.573 --> 0:07:30.933 Embodied when Kamala Harris sought to be a patriotic fighter, 0:07:31.693 --> 0:07:34.973 she wasn't a fighter of freedom. 0:07:34.253 --> 0:07:38.573 She was a far left fundamentalist. 0:07:38.213 --> 0:07:43.133 And she ran an ideology just because she was a woman, 0:07:43.293 --> 0:07:46.613 a person of color, that people would naturally support her. 0:07:46.653 --> 0:07:48.613 And we've got here that in New Zealand. Look at 0:07:48.653 --> 0:07:49.933 the Maori Party. 0:07:50.493 --> 0:07:54.933 Who continually say to Winston and I that our Maori 0:07:55.013 --> 0:07:59.813 ancestry is diluted. It makes a mockery of what it 0:07:59.893 --> 0:08:03.493 means to be a champion for maldi things. I mean, 0:08:03.533 --> 0:08:09.693 Winston and I detest that foul conception of where the 0:08:09.773 --> 0:08:13.773 mild dimension in New Zealand culture and society sit. Which 0:08:13.853 --> 0:08:18.533 is why every day we stand up in Parliament, why 0:08:18.613 --> 0:08:22.493 every day we say in the media, it's a contributing, 0:08:22.893 --> 0:08:25.413 key feature of what it means to be a New Zealander. 0:08:25.853 --> 0:08:30.173 But stop using it as a crutch, Stop turning it 0:08:30.853 --> 0:08:38.013 into a basis for a new set of moral pleadings, 0:08:38.773 --> 0:08:42.573 as if history has burdened people that they can never 0:08:42.613 --> 0:08:45.653 ever fulfill their potential. Now all of that has been 0:08:45.653 --> 0:08:49.893 put to the sword by Trump's victory, and I look 0:08:49.973 --> 0:08:53.693 forward with Wanston to continuing that message here in New Zealand. 0:08:53.773 --> 0:08:56.413 I know, look, I'm diverting a bit, but you did ask. 0:08:56.333 --> 0:08:59.573 Me, No, you're not diverting, you're saving me to You're 0:08:59.613 --> 0:09:01.653 saving me the trouble and asking the question that to 0:09:01.693 --> 0:09:04.773 would have let us down the same path. Having watched 0:09:04.813 --> 0:09:12.013 you on X make some commentaries where you said, amongst 0:09:12.013 --> 0:09:18.213 other things, colonialism and colonization are not responsible for jail numbers, 0:09:18.693 --> 0:09:21.333 and then talked about this is in a very short 0:09:21.333 --> 0:09:25.653 space of time, talked about responsibility as in personal responsibility 0:09:25.773 --> 0:09:30.653 to stop off loading to aspects of history and current 0:09:30.733 --> 0:09:33.493 day failings and trying to line them up as one 0:09:33.533 --> 0:09:37.173 responsible for the other. Then you said, the Treaty of 0:09:37.173 --> 0:09:40.413 white An you should not be evoked to explain why 0:09:40.613 --> 0:09:45.933 ram raiders or other types of criminality exist. And you 0:09:45.973 --> 0:09:49.413 said a lot more, what sort of reaction do you 0:09:49.453 --> 0:09:49.973 get from that? 0:09:52.133 --> 0:09:56.693 Well, obviously out in the wasteland otherwise known as TikTok 0:09:57.693 --> 0:10:03.733 and other such intellectual deserts, you can imagine it's pretty 0:10:03.733 --> 0:10:10.013 extreme language. But the difficulty is it's very difficult to 0:10:10.133 --> 0:10:13.813 engage on the basis of ideas because this goes for 0:10:13.893 --> 0:10:20.133 the heart of what does it actually mean to be 0:10:20.253 --> 0:10:23.653 a New Zealander. And how do you define the essence 0:10:24.293 --> 0:10:32.453 of what is the substance that holds identity and holds 0:10:32.453 --> 0:10:33.653 a society together? 0:10:33.733 --> 0:10:35.173 And I'll tell you what corrodes. 0:10:35.173 --> 0:10:41.613 It is the continual drip of polarizing poison that is 0:10:41.653 --> 0:10:45.773 poured out both by the Green Party and partially the 0:10:45.813 --> 0:10:49.413 deluded souls in the Labor Party, but in the Malti Party. 0:10:50.293 --> 0:10:53.693 And what, in my view is happening is that there 0:10:53.693 --> 0:10:57.013 are not enough of us in politics who are calling 0:10:57.053 --> 0:11:02.933 out that corrosive, destructive influence. I mean, it's akin to 0:11:02.973 --> 0:11:05.573 a virus and it's going to attack the essential organs 0:11:05.973 --> 0:11:09.933 of our community and society unless we can newly rail 0:11:09.973 --> 0:11:13.893 against it. So I've got a mandate from our caucus. Fortunately, 0:11:13.893 --> 0:11:15.893 I believe in what I'm saying. My dad was one 0:11:15.933 --> 0:11:20.253 of seventeen children, like a lot of people of Kaitai area, 0:11:20.413 --> 0:11:24.413 of the Katai area and the north West, the Bobby 0:11:24.413 --> 0:11:26.453 Carbs that have been killed at birth, or a mix 0:11:26.573 --> 0:11:31.053 of the influences that made the north the Galleys, the Maldi's, 0:11:31.133 --> 0:11:35.333 the early pioneers came from the Parkers. We came from 0:11:35.653 --> 0:11:38.973 Wales in England, and it's just that we grew up 0:11:38.973 --> 0:11:42.293 in a certain way where church was important Mom and dad, 0:11:42.853 --> 0:11:45.853 and we house next to the Jaci stallone it next 0:11:45.853 --> 0:11:48.893 to the Madai. But none of that has turned into 0:11:49.453 --> 0:11:54.813 an ideological motive or fig leaf that you use to 0:11:54.893 --> 0:12:00.333 define everything about yourself, the particularities of your identity becoming 0:12:00.493 --> 0:12:06.093 the sole basis upon which, how upon which you project 0:12:06.133 --> 0:12:09.253 whether or not you're fit for a particular role, or 0:12:09.253 --> 0:12:12.213 whether you should be considered for a particular role. And 0:12:12.253 --> 0:12:16.133 we're just going to move beyond that. And at the moment, 0:12:17.053 --> 0:12:24.373 the left has seized upon, seized upon the treaty, and 0:12:24.533 --> 0:12:30.253 seize upon conceptions of history as meaning that you cannot 0:12:30.453 --> 0:12:34.933 be Milordi unless you go back and bring them worst 0:12:35.013 --> 0:12:41.813 interpretation of history to justify why things aren't working out 0:12:41.853 --> 0:12:45.533 to the satisfaction of some a tiny minority in the 0:12:45.573 --> 0:12:46.333 Maori world. 0:12:46.533 --> 0:12:48.173 But of course the politicians and. 0:12:48.133 --> 0:12:50.293 The Maori Party in other areas it using that as 0:12:50.293 --> 0:12:51.293 a recruitment device. 0:12:51.333 --> 0:12:53.173 They're radicalized in their new generation. 0:12:54.013 --> 0:12:56.413 Those who don't want to be radicalized are too busy 0:12:56.453 --> 0:12:58.613 paying their bills, or they're buggering off to Australia. 0:13:00.173 --> 0:13:05.093 And there's been plenty of that. I am speaking of Australia. 0:13:05.293 --> 0:13:10.053 Arrived from Australia in nineteen eighty, so we're talking now 0:13:10.133 --> 0:13:11.213 forty five years ago. 0:13:12.053 --> 0:13:14.493 I remember when you arrived in nineteen eighty, you and 0:13:14.533 --> 0:13:17.293 I were in a law class together. How long did 0:13:17.373 --> 0:13:22.173 you stay in that class? Ah? Sadly, you and I 0:13:22.533 --> 0:13:26.013 we were treotored by a chap called Stephen Koch, who 0:13:26.013 --> 0:13:27.973 went on, I think you might be on the Supreme Court. 0:13:28.813 --> 0:13:31.533 And I did two years of law and then moved on. 0:13:31.733 --> 0:13:34.853 I certainly could see in quick order I was never 0:13:34.893 --> 0:13:36.973 ever going to be a practicing lawyer, although I was 0:13:37.013 --> 0:13:39.333 attracted to concepts of law and whatnot. 0:13:39.693 --> 0:13:41.053 But that's where I first met you. 0:13:41.253 --> 0:13:44.133 Well, it's interesting, and what was your impression by the way. 0:13:45.653 --> 0:13:51.013 Of yourself? Well, a memorable personality. Because I'm able to 0:13:51.013 --> 0:13:52.893 recite the fact that that's where I met you in 0:13:52.893 --> 0:13:55.013 the tutorial to do with law. 0:13:56.013 --> 0:13:59.493 Then it seems that we have some more in common 0:13:59.493 --> 0:14:03.253 than I might have imagined. Because I got as far 0:14:03.333 --> 0:14:07.453 as the second year, yes, myself as well myself, and 0:14:08.093 --> 0:14:11.893 then decided that well, I'd always wanted to do what 0:14:11.933 --> 0:14:13.733 I what I ended up doing, so let's just leave 0:14:13.773 --> 0:14:16.773 it at that. And I moved on But what I 0:14:16.813 --> 0:14:20.413 was going to say was that when I arrived, I 0:14:20.453 --> 0:14:24.933 garnered an opinion in the first nine months, and I 0:14:24.973 --> 0:14:28.173 told you why. I remember that because I was working 0:14:28.173 --> 0:14:34.333 for Radio New Zealand and in September, if I remember correctly, 0:14:35.373 --> 0:14:39.173 we all were taken to the Marai up on the 0:14:39.293 --> 0:14:43.613 up on the coast, oh Okay, and we and we 0:14:43.653 --> 0:14:47.493 spent we spent a weekend there, two nights, okay. Now 0:14:47.573 --> 0:14:50.493 part from the fact that on the after the after 0:14:50.533 --> 0:14:52.493 the first night, I went across the road and went 0:14:52.533 --> 0:14:56.173 to the races for the day and skipped skipped class. 0:14:57.293 --> 0:15:01.493 I recall that we're all lined up in rows in 0:15:01.573 --> 0:15:04.853 the marais and there were a lot of people and 0:15:05.613 --> 0:15:07.733 we started at the beginning and we went down the 0:15:07.813 --> 0:15:10.333 roads one by one and everybody had to make commentary 0:15:11.173 --> 0:15:14.893 m and there was a guy who from from Radio 0:15:14.973 --> 0:15:20.333 New Zealand Rural who stood up and started apologizing for everything, 0:15:20.813 --> 0:15:24.973 everything that he could think of that I deserved to 0:15:25.013 --> 0:15:28.813 be apologized for. And there was a response to it 0:15:28.893 --> 0:15:33.493 straight after, and it was from a woman who I 0:15:33.573 --> 0:15:36.733 understood shouldn't have been up on stage because that's not protocol, 0:15:36.893 --> 0:15:40.333 but she got up there and I don't know exactly 0:15:40.333 --> 0:15:44.933 what she said, but her tone was angry and shed 0:15:44.973 --> 0:15:48.453 asused him for much the same sort of reason that 0:15:48.533 --> 0:15:51.493 you would have done the same, and that made that 0:15:51.573 --> 0:15:55.053 made a very big impression. Now, the real reason I 0:15:55.093 --> 0:15:58.173 mentioned this was because I have I've said on a 0:15:58.253 --> 0:16:02.413 number of occasions recently that in the in the when 0:16:02.413 --> 0:16:04.933 I got here, there was much discussion going on about 0:16:04.973 --> 0:16:11.333 race relations the Treaty of Waitangi, and nothing has changed now. 0:16:11.333 --> 0:16:15.973 If you want confirmation of that, yesterday I was told 0:16:17.373 --> 0:16:20.493 of the commentary of a man who is very successful, 0:16:22.733 --> 0:16:28.213 who said that he thought that race relations in New 0:16:28.253 --> 0:16:31.933 Zealand now was worse than it was forty years ago. Now, 0:16:31.933 --> 0:16:34.453 this had no connection with what I've just told you 0:16:34.533 --> 0:16:37.173 about my thoughts, none at all. It was told to 0:16:37.213 --> 0:16:41.213 me by an intermediately. But that race relations in New 0:16:41.253 --> 0:16:43.773 Zealand it is worse now than it was forty years ago, 0:16:43.973 --> 0:16:44.613 you would say. 0:16:46.933 --> 0:16:52.733 I think what he may be referring to is the 0:16:52.813 --> 0:16:56.973 echo chamber that social media represents, the. 0:16:56.973 --> 0:16:58.773 Fact that we. 0:16:58.733 --> 0:17:04.253 Live in a climate and a culture of microaggression and 0:17:04.533 --> 0:17:10.813 small perceived slights are immediately exaggerated and amplified. And because 0:17:10.893 --> 0:17:16.053 I wake up every day as a professional politician willing 0:17:16.693 --> 0:17:20.133 to argue my case. And if it comes to pass 0:17:20.213 --> 0:17:23.813 that a few awkward things are said by me, I 0:17:23.813 --> 0:17:30.493 don't lose any sleepover it. And if you say angry, challenging, 0:17:31.013 --> 0:17:33.773 offensive things to me, I just wear it like a boxer. 0:17:34.773 --> 0:17:39.093 I don't turn it into a new form of grievance. 0:17:39.693 --> 0:17:43.733 But we live in a time where grievance culture too 0:17:43.813 --> 0:17:46.733 often is celebrated and. 0:17:49.573 --> 0:17:51.533 The most sort of kind of. 0:17:53.213 --> 0:17:57.253 Ugly examples of it are in the transgender walls, the 0:17:57.373 --> 0:18:05.333 extreme interpretation of Maori entitlements, which have completely distorted the 0:18:05.373 --> 0:18:11.973 meaning of the treaty, completely derailed the proper and appropriate 0:18:12.053 --> 0:18:15.853 place of the multi dimension as a part of New 0:18:15.973 --> 0:18:22.853 Zealand society. So I feel that where people can see 0:18:22.853 --> 0:18:25.173 that our situation is worse than maybe it was in 0:18:25.213 --> 0:18:28.493 the sixties, I think it's more a comment that the 0:18:28.533 --> 0:18:32.853 tools that you can promote and exaggerate and amplify are 0:18:32.893 --> 0:18:34.773 a lot more potent. And it's the same as in 0:18:34.813 --> 0:18:40.893 the States and my personal experience. What has changed is 0:18:41.253 --> 0:18:45.773 the level of dysfunctionalism, the level of. 0:18:45.733 --> 0:18:50.493 Welfare, the level of violence. 0:18:51.053 --> 0:18:56.373 That we are not holding people responsible for these hideous 0:18:56.413 --> 0:19:00.053 acts that we see on a regular basis and with 0:19:00.173 --> 0:19:03.893 the diminution of being responsible facing. 0:19:03.533 --> 0:19:04.813 Up to the consequences. 0:19:05.653 --> 0:19:11.293 And I don't fully understand how the calculus works when 0:19:11.333 --> 0:19:17.373 the judges take account of various upbringing factors or your 0:19:17.373 --> 0:19:20.053 ethnicity and all that sort of stuff. I mean, I 0:19:20.093 --> 0:19:22.213 worried about it in the newspaper, but honestly I don't 0:19:22.213 --> 0:19:26.093 fully understand it. But I think it's turned into an industry, 0:19:27.093 --> 0:19:31.213 and there's a whole legal arm there's a whole legal 0:19:31.213 --> 0:19:34.653 fraternity who knows how to lessen the impact of a 0:19:34.693 --> 0:19:38.173 person's wrongdoing. And the victims, I think, just give up 0:19:38.213 --> 0:19:40.773 and try and put their lives back together. And then 0:19:41.013 --> 0:19:43.733 these men and women who do these hideous things often 0:19:44.013 --> 0:19:46.813 don't face the full costs of what society demands that 0:19:46.853 --> 0:19:49.573 they should face. So in that way, if I can 0:19:49.573 --> 0:19:57.453 find a biblical analogy, I'm very much of the Old Testament, meaning, well, 0:19:58.173 --> 0:20:01.613 if you are, you don't know, if you know, if 0:20:01.653 --> 0:20:04.573 you know a little, these bloody, hideous things mate that 0:20:05.293 --> 0:20:09.453 we read about on a regular basis, and the punitive 0:20:09.493 --> 0:20:14.333 response seems adversely related. Sure, I mean, as a society 0:20:14.893 --> 0:20:17.493 we should have that Christian dimension. If you're willing to 0:20:17.573 --> 0:20:20.053 change your ways and stretch my hand out of helping. 0:20:20.093 --> 0:20:22.453 But if you're not going to change your ways, I 0:20:22.493 --> 0:20:25.893 really don't care. Just get the hell out of my face. 0:20:26.453 --> 0:20:32.253 And if we condemn you to be excluded and held somewhere, 0:20:32.373 --> 0:20:33.053 I don't care. 0:20:33.253 --> 0:20:34.493 Just get the hell out of my face. 0:20:34.533 --> 0:20:38.253 I find my life complicated and challenging enough without suffering 0:20:38.253 --> 0:20:40.053 the prospect of you further blighting it. 0:20:41.453 --> 0:20:44.453 You went to Yale, No, it wasn't Yale, it was 0:20:44.853 --> 0:20:48.013 Harvard and the kids Kennedy School. What did you study? 0:20:49.373 --> 0:20:53.413 I went with my wife and four young children and 0:20:53.533 --> 0:20:56.693 spent a small fortune getting over there. I was fortunate 0:20:56.813 --> 0:20:59.493 enough to have a we scholarship, our scholarship, shall I say, 0:21:00.453 --> 0:21:03.413 from the Harkness Fellowship, And I did economics. 0:21:03.893 --> 0:21:04.533 I did. 0:21:06.013 --> 0:21:14.533 What else did I do? Economics? Local economy, finance strategy. 0:21:14.893 --> 0:21:21.533 I did a paper offered by an American academic called Fisher. 0:21:21.693 --> 0:21:26.973 He wrote a book, Getting to Yes on Negotiations. That 0:21:27.133 --> 0:21:31.053 was in nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one. And as a 0:21:31.093 --> 0:21:36.093 part of the fellowship that I had been awarded, we 0:21:36.133 --> 0:21:38.693 had the ability to move around the States over a 0:21:38.733 --> 0:21:42.493 four or five month period and stayed at the campgrounds 0:21:42.533 --> 0:21:46.413 of America and visited and saw large parts of America, 0:21:47.173 --> 0:21:50.453 and I remain eternally grateful, which is why I always say, 0:21:50.533 --> 0:21:53.053 don't ever bet against America. 0:21:53.373 --> 0:21:57.293 It's a sensible saying. I draw your attention to the 0:21:57.333 --> 0:22:02.493 fact that not just from yesterday and the executive orders 0:22:02.533 --> 0:22:05.613 in large numbers that were signed by I was going 0:22:05.653 --> 0:22:08.253 to say, the new president, well, the old new president, 0:22:08.413 --> 0:22:12.693 the new old president have already had had some effect. 0:22:12.693 --> 0:22:15.693 That it started, it started before that, it started after 0:22:15.813 --> 0:22:21.693 the election, and a lot of things have changed. And 0:22:21.733 --> 0:22:24.653 by that I mean there is now a I saw 0:22:24.653 --> 0:22:28.253 a headline just this morning about the reduction in the 0:22:28.293 --> 0:22:34.053 reduction and withdrawal of a number of large companies from 0:22:34.813 --> 0:22:41.773 matters like DEEI and wocism, and it's amazing. It's amazing 0:22:42.573 --> 0:22:47.133 to see this happen so quickly, because it indicates, it 0:22:47.253 --> 0:22:49.493 indicates to me that it was only ever adopted in 0:22:49.493 --> 0:22:53.013 the first place for shall we say, politically correct reasons, 0:22:53.053 --> 0:22:56.613 and to be looking to well to get the tick 0:22:56.973 --> 0:22:59.933 from wherever you needed to get the tick from the 0:23:00.013 --> 0:23:05.573 stand up and take this previous abomination that has affected 0:23:05.613 --> 0:23:09.093 so many, so many countries, so many companies, so many people, 0:23:10.293 --> 0:23:15.093 and the fact that it's changing now. It flowed down 0:23:15.133 --> 0:23:18.533 from America in the first place. I talk about woke matters. 0:23:19.853 --> 0:23:24.533 Do you imagine that the eradication of it will follow 0:23:24.573 --> 0:23:25.453 the same path. 0:23:27.373 --> 0:23:29.973 If we have public figures. 0:23:30.893 --> 0:23:34.373 Like Winston who are willing to call it out on 0:23:34.413 --> 0:23:40.773 a regular basis, who are willing to expose how absurd, 0:23:41.733 --> 0:23:46.133 self serving it is, and how it's inversely related to 0:23:46.253 --> 0:23:49.453 the interests of the people that it's purported to serve. 0:23:49.693 --> 0:23:52.693 I mean, look no further than the high. 0:23:52.413 --> 0:23:59.733 Priests of American wocism, which was Disneyland. So they no 0:23:59.893 --> 0:24:03.093 doubt were channeling what they conceived to be the power 0:24:03.133 --> 0:24:07.613 culture of that time. That's coming gone now and we're 0:24:07.613 --> 0:24:11.293 going back. As I said at the beginning, we're going 0:24:11.573 --> 0:24:16.373 I mean, I think what's really needed in New Zealand 0:24:16.933 --> 0:24:20.253 And I mean, obviously we're a smaller country and we've 0:24:20.253 --> 0:24:25.613 got a village complex in many respects. However, it's often 0:24:25.613 --> 0:24:30.333 said about Kiwis that we constantly look for affirmation. Apparently 0:24:30.373 --> 0:24:32.693 we ask people who come here or we bump into 0:24:32.693 --> 0:24:34.493 people and we ask and what do they think about 0:24:34.533 --> 0:24:40.293 us in a wall and whatnot? And what New Zealand first, 0:24:40.333 --> 0:24:42.453 and what Winston and I are very keen to do. 0:24:43.013 --> 0:24:48.653 Is that we're not going to solve our social cultural 0:24:48.893 --> 0:24:52.933 dysfunctionalism unless we grow economically. We're not going to grow 0:24:52.973 --> 0:24:58.533 economically until we unleash the animal spirits that actually drove 0:24:59.773 --> 0:25:04.613 the innovation, the risk taking, and the frontier mentality that's 0:25:04.653 --> 0:25:08.733 almost been driven out of us through excessive regulation, the 0:25:08.733 --> 0:25:12.613 inability to call a spade a spade, the kind of 0:25:12.693 --> 0:25:17.453 censorship of language it's it is. It is truly astounding 0:25:18.013 --> 0:25:20.693 how far it's gone. And the only way you can 0:25:20.733 --> 0:25:23.133 push back on it is that Number one, there has 0:25:23.213 --> 0:25:26.493 to be some public figures at the vanguard who are 0:25:26.493 --> 0:25:31.013 continually articulating what people are feeling. And I think there's 0:25:31.053 --> 0:25:34.013 a genuine political market there and it's one that I 0:25:34.053 --> 0:25:37.493 think that Wiston on our behalf tapped into. And it 0:25:37.533 --> 0:25:41.773 doesn't need to be particularly ascetic or offenses, but it 0:25:41.813 --> 0:25:43.893 has to be based on authenticity. 0:25:44.653 --> 0:25:48.293 Can you name any other politicians in government at the 0:25:48.373 --> 0:25:51.813 moment that would fall into that category apart from the 0:25:51.853 --> 0:25:52.293 two of you. 0:25:54.293 --> 0:25:57.613 Well, I mean, obviously we've got to we've got to tend, 0:25:57.693 --> 0:26:01.853 but we've got to attend our own, our own estate. 0:26:04.653 --> 0:26:09.933 Perhaps Judith Collins has got some very firm views about 0:26:09.933 --> 0:26:13.293 these things. Obviously, she showed that she's not going to 0:26:13.293 --> 0:26:16.893 be bullied. For example, in terms of how science funding 0:26:17.893 --> 0:26:20.733 is utilized, I saw her in Parliament prior to Christmas 0:26:21.733 --> 0:26:26.333 pointing out that some of the money being allocated under 0:26:26.373 --> 0:26:30.613 the rubric of social progressivism was nothing short of a 0:26:30.693 --> 0:26:36.173 random nonsense and it was being used to advance the 0:26:36.493 --> 0:26:40.853 peculiar careers of a limited number of people who kind 0:26:40.893 --> 0:26:44.173 of set up a little echo chamber in our universities. 0:26:44.213 --> 0:26:47.733 So that's an example. But at the end of the day, mate, 0:26:48.013 --> 0:26:50.733 we've got to get out there, we've got to put 0:26:50.733 --> 0:26:55.373 our own shingle up and convinced Kiwis that we've got 0:26:55.453 --> 0:27:02.213 the fortitude, the lucidity of thought and language to give 0:27:02.293 --> 0:27:05.293 voice to anxiety that Qui families have. 0:27:05.853 --> 0:27:09.453 The same as I would suggest that if you went 0:27:09.493 --> 0:27:14.093 to Harvard now to Harvard Kennedy, you wouldn't you wouldn't 0:27:14.093 --> 0:27:17.093 be learning, you wouldn't be taught the same things and 0:27:17.173 --> 0:27:20.653 in the same way. And that has spread to as 0:27:20.693 --> 0:27:23.933 far as I'm aware, every university in this country. Now 0:27:23.933 --> 0:27:27.773 there are exceptions within it, but if you take my 0:27:27.893 --> 0:27:31.213