1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: US President Donald Trump says a. 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 2: Gaza ceasefire is closer than ever, but what's the reality. 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 2: The White House has released a plan to end the 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: Gaza war after Trump held talks with Benjamin Netanya, who 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: the Israeli leader has apparently agreed to the twenty point plan, 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: which still requires sign off from Hamas. 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: After nearly two. 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 2: Years of war, the powers that be seem hopeful and 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 2: ends near. 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: Trump has said if Hamas doesn't. 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: Agree to the deal, it's going to be and I quote, 15 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: a very sad end. 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: But given a number of provisions are ones the terror. 17 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: Group has previously vetoed, how realistic is it and who would. 18 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: Govern Gaza once the dust settles? Anyway? 19 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Australian National University Center for 20 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: Arab and Islamic Studies senior lecturer Doctor and us ek 21 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: Tate is with us to discuss the latest in the 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: plan for peace. First off, and as can you tell 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 2: me about this plan? What are some of the main 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: conditions that stood out to you? 25 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 3: I think the most important elements of this plan is 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: the fact that many Arab and Islamic countries have been 27 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 3: quick to endorse it, and it also came after a 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 3: meeting between Trump and many leaders of Arab and Muslim 29 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 3: majority countries like Turkey and Pakistan and many of those 30 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 3: many of those in the Arab world as well. So 31 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: this is the most important element in this plan, which 32 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 3: means that for Hamas now it is in a very 33 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: difficult position because if it refuses the plan, or it, 34 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 3: let's say, suggests major revisions to the plan's pillars as 35 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 3: they stand at the moment, it loses also or it 36 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: potentially loses the very little support it still has amongst 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 3: certain Arab and also Islamic audiences. 38 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 4: Particularly at the policy level. 39 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 3: So this is the most important element, in my opinion, 40 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: behind this plan, which suggests that we may be seeing 41 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 3: Hamas agreeing to it in the coming days. 42 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: I mean, Trump has said that Israel would have his 43 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: full backing to continue going after her Mass if the 44 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 2: group rejects the deal. How do we expect her Mass though, 45 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: to agree to something that would see them excluded from 46 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: any future governing role though, I mean, is it realistic 47 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: to believe that a terrorist organization would willingly agree to that. 48 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: I think the context of the Palestinian political system here 49 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 3: and political field is very important. The plan itself has 50 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 3: elements where Hamas seems to have full control over, so 51 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: for example, the release of Israeli hostages in Gaza, as 52 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 3: well as some of the pillars that relate to the 53 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 3: movement disarming, something that we still haven't heard a response 54 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 3: for by Hamas at the moment. 55 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 4: So these are. 56 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 3: Pillars that Hamas has direct control over in many ways. 57 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 3: But then there is the wider Palestinian political field. The 58 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 3: plan makes this assumption which basically equates the Palestinian polity 59 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 3: in Gaza with Hamas and then also separates Gaza from 60 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 3: its wider Palestinian context. And this is precisely where the 61 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 3: second element, which is the factors that are not necessarily 62 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 3: under Hamas's control. So, for example, who decides who's going 63 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: to govern the Palestinians and the Gaza Strip, And why 64 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: is it that the Palestinians and the Gaza Strip are 65 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: being proposed to be governed by this sort of international 66 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: coalition that may include Palestinian names on it or technocratic names, 67 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 3: And why is this governance system or mechanism separate from 68 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 3: wider Palestinian governance, and why is Hamas to make a 69 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 3: decision about the political future of the Gaza Strip alone. 70 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 4: So these are. 71 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 3: Things that the plan leaves ambiguous and put the sort 72 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 3: of the ball in Hamas's field, if you will, with 73 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 3: regards not only to the day to day events or 74 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: let's say the technical aspects that are related to the war, 75 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 3: but then also to the future of the Palestinians at 76 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 3: large in the Gaza Strip, which will definitely have ramifications 77 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: to the future of Palestinians elsewhere as well. 78 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: You mentioned that the plan involves denying Hamas in the 79 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: future obviously in government, but it calls for two levels 80 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: of interim governance, that's that international body and a Palestinian committee. 81 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: Do you say that as a good solution. 82 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 3: Well, absolutely not. Again, I think this is sort of 83 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: a governance model that is being imposed internationally on the Palestinians. 84 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: And here I would just like to separate Hamas from 85 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 3: this discussion, because this is what I was referring to 86 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 3: in my earlier point, that the future of the Palestinian 87 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: political field is not in the hands of Hamas to 88 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 3: decide on alone. Hamas is part of the Palestinian political fabric, 89 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 3: within the Palestinian political field field. But so it's part 90 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 3: it's not in the hands of hamas I want to 91 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 3: make to make a decision on this. And then two, 92 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 3: we have moved past colonial governance infrastructures right and mechanisms, 93 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 3: so at least in the vast majority of the world, 94 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 3: not in the Palestinian context. It seems imposing sort of 95 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 3: a governance mechanism that is going to be chaired by 96 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 3: the President of the United States on Palestinians, even if 97 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 3: it has some Palestinian voices, is in my opinion, will 98 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: certainly prove to be unproductive, inefficient, and will backfire because 99 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: the plan will not result in what it's being promoted 100 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 3: that it's going to result in in the future, at 101 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: least in the intermediate and long terms. 102 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw that this Board of Peace as well, 103 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: it would include former British PM Tony Blair. That's a 104 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: name that's been thrown out into the ether as well 105 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 2: involving being involved in this in terms of Palestinian governance. 106 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: Do you think anyone has been involved in the discussions 107 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: in this plan from the Palestinian side. 108 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 3: So my understanding is that the Arab leaderships or the 109 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: Arab presidents, and these of states who met with Trump 110 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 3: in New York have conveyed these points to the Palestinian authority, 111 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 3: and the Palestinian authority has been quick to agree to 112 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: the plan as a blueprint at least or. 113 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 4: At least as a general blueprint to end the war 114 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 4: in Gaza. 115 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: That said, it really reminds me of rounds of negotiations 116 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: between Arabs and Arab leaders and Israel before the Madrid 117 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 3: peace process in nineteen ninety one. This is basically where 118 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: Israel used to refuse to represent or to meet with 119 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 3: Palestinians to negotiate with them in their capacity as Palestinians. 120 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: And would. 121 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 3: Prefer to meet with the Jordanian leadership or other Arab 122 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 3: leaders on behalf of the Palestinians. And this is precisely 123 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 3: the peril that I'm drawing. Here's an international mechanism, the 124 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: United States as the leading state that is behind this 125 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 3: mechanism that has sort of a consensus amongst the Arab 126 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 3: leadership and the consensus amongst the international community. In the 127 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 3: early nineteen nineties, this resulted in the Osclo Accords and 128 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 3: from Palestinian's perspectives. There's consensus amongst Palestinian academics, analysts, observers 129 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 3: that the OSCO Accords was has been a failure and 130 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: was heavily criticized at the time as well. 131 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 4: So there is a lot of in my opinion, there's 132 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 4: da ja vu. 133 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: There's a lot of peril between where we are heading 134 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 3: with Gaza and the Madrid peace process. The only difference here, 135 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 3: obviously is that the Gaza situation is being separated from 136 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 3: the wider Palestinian situation or the wider Palestinian narrative and aspirations, 137 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 3: which is really worrying and worrying from the perspective that 138 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 3: it will, in my opinion, most likely result in many 139 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: issues in the intermediate and long terms that can backfire 140 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 3: to the stability for the region, also for the aspirations 141 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 3: of Palestinians as well. 142 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's a really important distinction to make, 143 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: like you said, as well, the Gaza situation and the 144 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: Palestinian situation, because that they're focusing on her Maas I 145 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 2: see here. And another point to make, I suppose, is 146 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 2: that the plan also promises amnesty to members of her 147 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: Maas who agree to peaceful coexistence and to decommission their weapons. Again, 148 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: is this realistic or is this just a power play 149 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: from the powers that be to make the You know, 150 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: sure everyone knows that they're trying. 151 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: They tried. 152 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 2: When it fails, they have permission to go and do 153 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: what they want. 154 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 4: Yes, on this very point. 155 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 3: Minutes after Trump obviously declared this this plan, Nitia who 156 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: commented on it, a standing next to Trump, and this 157 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 3: is this is something that Niteia who clearly said was 158 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 3: not going to happen. The from Nathaniaho's perspective or the 159 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: way that Ntinio is interpreting the peace plan, is that 160 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 3: it's going to result in complete victory for Israel, or 161 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,599 Speaker 3: Israel achieving all of the pillars of its or objectives 162 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 3: of its operation, the five that he mentioned next to Trump. 163 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: One of them is completely defeating HAMAS, which really goes 164 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: against without explaining what happens to Hamas's members and so on, 165 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 3: which really goes against the points that Trump was discussing 166 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 3: about amnesty and so on. 167 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 4: So my biggest issue obviously has already raised several points. 168 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 3: But here I think we are circling around one of 169 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 3: the biggest teams and pitfalls of this plan. Which is 170 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 3: how big ambiguous it is and how it is left 171 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 3: for interpretation by both Israelis, the Palestinians, Hamas, the Palestinian 172 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 3: leadership of Ramala, the Arab leaders, and the Islamic leaders abroad, 173 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 3: and then also the United States. And this is again 174 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: the major pitfall, pitfall with this plan, which will which 175 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 3: has already resulted in some confusion. 176 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 4: I've also read reports in US. 177 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: Media that that the plan had changed between Trump's meeting 178 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: with Arab and Islamic leaders and then what was made 179 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: public after a meeting with with Nimia, who particularly on 180 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 3: issues that relate to to addressing rhetoric inside of Israel 181 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 3: towards the Palestinians and certain other other other points that 182 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 3: relate to the Israelis themselves, so the Israel and then 183 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: the way that it's handling the war. 184 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 4: So there's ambiguity there, there's. 185 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 3: Change, but for the moment, and perhaps this. 186 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 4: Is something that you you you. 187 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: May maybe you were prepared to ask me at the 188 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: later point, but for the moment, it's really the best 189 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: option that exists from the Hamassas perspective. And this is 190 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 3: me analyzing the situation from Hamas's perspective. From the Palestinians 191 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 3: for expected in Gaza Palestinian authority as well, and then 192 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 3: also the wider Arab and Islamic pla. This is what 193 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 3: is practical, this is what's achievable within the power relations 194 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: that exist in the region and also internationally, and therefore 195 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: there's this big push towards at least stopping the war 196 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 3: and then dealing with the ambiguity of this plan. 197 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 4: At a later date. 198 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 5: So this is a big, big day, a beautiful day, 199 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 5: potentially one of the great days ever in civilization, things 200 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 5: that have been going on for hundreds of years and 201 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 5: thousands of years. 202 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: We're going to. 203 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 5: At least we're at a minimum, very very close, and 204 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 5: I think. 205 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 4: We're beharnd very close. 206 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 5: And I want to thank Babe for really getting in 207 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 5: there and doing a jam. We worked well together, as 208 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 5: we have with many other countries, both of us, with 209 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 5: many other countries, which is the only way. 210 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 4: This whole situation gets solved. 211 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 5: And I'm not just talking about Guyser. Guys is one thing, 212 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 5: but we're talking about much beyond Guyser, the whole deal. 213 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: I read this in the The Guardians interpretation of the plan. 214 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: It said a panel of experts will be convened to 215 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: create what the plan calls a Trump Economic Development Plan 216 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: to build and energize the territory, which the US President 217 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: has previously envisioned as of course, transforming the area into 218 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: a riviera with a string of high tech megacities. 219 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: Now this is where I see why. 220 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: Trump is getting so involved, not only his bid for 221 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: a noble Peace Price prize obviously at some point in 222 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: the future, I suppose, but this riviera idea and how 223 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: much money that could bring investors and you know, those 224 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: interested in it from the West? 225 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: Or Am I being far too cynical? 226 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: Have I gone too far down the conspiratorial pipeline here? 227 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 4: Where I will comment on. 228 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 3: What I will comment on is is that we are 229 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 3: being too optimistic that the plan at this stage will 230 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: result in. 231 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 4: A governing body to begin with. 232 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: So I even rule that out, at least in the 233 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: way that the plan is communicating that governing body. Again, 234 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: I think the Palestinians have enough credentials and have enough 235 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: have many Palestinians. 236 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 4: Who are well equipped to govern. 237 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 3: This is regardless of, obviously the wider rhetoric at the 238 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: moment about the efficacy of Palestinian governments. So I doubt 239 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 3: the fact that there will be a governing body composed 240 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 3: in the way that the plan suggests, including Tony Blair 241 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 3: as taking part. 242 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 4: In it, and also the United States president sharing. 243 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: And what also what I would also like to say 244 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: is that for us, you know, students of Middle East 245 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 3: politics and economics, Gaza turning into the Singapore of the 246 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: Middle East or into a revere is not a new suggestion. 247 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 4: In the nineteen nineties, it was widely. 248 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 3: Discussed how the Oslo Accords was going to turn the 249 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 3: Gaza Strip into the Singapore of. 250 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 4: The Middle East. 251 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 3: So this is and by the way, also using the 252 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: same mechanism, so international aid, international governance, an international agreement 253 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: guaranteed by the United States, facilitated for long term peace proposal. 254 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 4: So the same pillars, vaguely speaking. 255 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 3: Are also applied in this so called plan or supposed 256 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: peace plan, because some are also suggesting that it's going 257 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 3: to lead to a peace plan between the Palestinians and 258 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 3: Israelis atplarge, including by Trump by the way. 259 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 4: So that's what I will say is. 260 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 3: That I don't think the governing body will even be 261 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 3: composed to begin with, and I also doubt that the 262 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 3: Singapore of the Middle East or the river era of 263 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 3: the Middle East is going to be established in Gaza. 264 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: Terms of making sure, because you said that there are 265 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: Palestinians very much capable of governing Palestine themselves, how do 266 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: we make sure that those voices are on the table 267 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 2: in future. And it isn't just you know, the powers 268 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: that be behind a big table. You know, your Trumps, 269 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 2: you're Blairs, whoever else is going to be joining that committee. 270 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 3: It's so difficult for me to say this, but in 271 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: a way allowing the Palestinians to represent themselves, it is 272 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: absurd that we still have conditionalities on the Palestinians. Well, 273 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 3: we assume the Palestinians need to have reformed governance, so 274 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 3: called reformed governance and democracy and so on, and elections, 275 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 3: but at the same time, we need to make sure 276 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: who wins the election, and we need to make sure 277 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: that that certain political parties or certain fields within the 278 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: Palaestine larger political field don't win enough seats or influence 279 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 3: decision making. So the Palestinians are capable of govern in themselves, 280 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 3: and the international community again should step back from this 281 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 3: colonial mentality and allow the Palestinians to govern themselves. And 282 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 3: quite frankly, if we are going to talk about reform 283 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 3: and governance and who should speak on the health of 284 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 3: the Palestinians and so on, just look at the Israeli side. 285 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 3: We are having a convicted terrorist who is serving as 286 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 3: a minister, and this is convicted terrorists by Israeli law 287 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 3: itself and according to the words of previous heads of 288 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 3: intelligence services or agencies. 289 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 4: Instead of Israel. 290 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 3: Here we're talking about being fear And we also have 291 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 3: a self described fascist who's serving as the Minister of Finance. 292 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 4: So we are talking about. 293 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 3: Individuals that are serving that in any other government would 294 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 3: be unthinkable for them to serve and speak and represent 295 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 3: such major ministerial positions serving in the Israeli government. We're 296 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 3: also talking about an Israeli government that has passed resolutions 297 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 3: banning the even the consideration of the establishment of a 298 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 3: Palestinian political edity west of the Jordan River. 299 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 4: So this is not an opinion in Israel, it's law. 300 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 3: There's also the Jewish National Law twenty eighteen that against 301 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 3: is the right of determination for self determination inside of 302 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 3: the Land of Israel without defining what the Land of 303 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 3: Israel is, which basically for any political interpretation inside of 304 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 3: Israel means all of what we they call Palestine and Israel. 305 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 3: So this law guarantees that the rights for self determination 306 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 3: is only guaranteed to Jews inside of Greater Israel or 307 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 3: the land of Israel again, which means exists Palestine and 308 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 3: Israel today. So if we are going to look at governance, 309 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 3: it's how governments behave the use of violence or force 310 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 3: against civilians, starvation, violations of international law. Then let's look 311 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 3: at bost sides, Let's look at who has been violating 312 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 3: international law for decades and so on. So I'm not 313 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 3: a big fan of these discussions, and I know that 314 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 3: that's taken a lot of time addressing this particular point. 315 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: But going back to Palestinians having the credibility or the 316 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 3: capacity to govern themselves. In twenty eleven, the IMF, the 317 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 3: World Bank, the European Commission, and the United Nations said 318 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,719 Speaker 3: that the Palestine that Palestinian institutions were ready to host 319 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 3: or to govern a state and independent state, and they 320 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 3: were at bar with countries in the region and many 321 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 3: other countries in the developing world. 322 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 4: So Palestinian institutions. 323 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 3: Exist and they can govern the biggest hindrance to this 324 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 3: governance is obviously Israel's occupation over the Palestinians and this 325 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 3: has to be addressed. 326 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on us. 327 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 4: Thank you. 328 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 329 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 330 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 2: at Enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 331 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also 332 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: our editor. 333 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 334 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 335 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 336 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.