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Speaker 1: A decade long, six hundred and eighty million dollar experiment

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Speaker 1: in mission led science has just come to an end.

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Speaker 2: The so called National Science Challenges have wound up, and

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Speaker 2: there's a question mark over what, if anything, will replace them.

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Speaker 1: But one of the challenge directors has signed off by

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Speaker 1: commissioning some independent research that suggests the payback from the

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Speaker 1: work done by this one challenge, the Science for Technological

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Speaker 1: Innovation Challenge alone, is likely to be hundreds of millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars.

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Speaker 3: We chose eleven projects from our portfolio, gave into our

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Speaker 3: access to as much information as we could, and ask

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Speaker 3: them if they could give us a rough estimate the

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Speaker 3: sorts of dollar numbers they put on them. We're very gratifying, obviously,

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Speaker 3: because they well overshadowed to one hundred and six million

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Speaker 3: dollar investment. The nicest number I think we quote mostly

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Speaker 3: is that the eleven projects will probably be earning three

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Speaker 3: hundred million a year in a decade's time.

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Speaker 2: This week on the Business of Tech powered by two

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Speaker 2: Degrees Business, how do we make the most of our

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Speaker 2: limited science dollars to spur innovation and tackle the big

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Speaker 2: challenges facing society.

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Speaker 1: That's a big question, especially when science budgets are being cut,

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Speaker 1: will shortly be joined by Professor Sally Davenport, who led

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Speaker 1: one of the National Science Challenges and believes the work

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Speaker 1: it did signals a new way forward for undertaking impactful science.

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Speaker 2: First, though, we look at some of the big local

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Speaker 2: tech stories this week and a couple of good ones

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Speaker 2: covered by our colleagues at Business Desk.

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Speaker 1: A couple interesting reports out from government this week. The

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Speaker 1: first is from Treasury, and it's sort of telling us

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Speaker 1: what we already know. What all the big five consultancies

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Speaker 1: and pretty much anyone AI forum, everyone who is looking

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Speaker 1: at AI and our relationship to it here in New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: we're lagging. We have traditionally what they say is slow

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Speaker 1: diffusion off new technology and low levels of investment and

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Speaker 1: what they call intangible capital that seems like patents. So

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Speaker 1: when you invent something, you file a patent. That's a

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Speaker 1: very valuable thing that protects your intellectual property. We're not

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Speaker 1: very good at doing that, according to Treasury, So they

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Speaker 1: say that we are an outlier in the uptake of

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Speaker 1: advanced digital technologies and digital innovation lags compared to other

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Speaker 1: advanced economies. So nothing new there being it's what's interesting

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Speaker 1: about this is where it's coming from. With the dearth

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Speaker 1: of policy advice and deep reflection within government on this problem,

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Speaker 1: we have the ones who are really interested in the

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Speaker 1: money and where we are going to get our money

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Speaker 1: in future, putting up a red flag saying we're way

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Speaker 1: behind here and we will not reap the benefits of

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Speaker 1: using this technology if we don't come up with policy

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Speaker 1: that actually encourages that so called diffusion through society and

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Speaker 1: through the economy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Treasury do say it's not actually the

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Speaker 2: views of the Treasury, but of the authors of the

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Speaker 2: report that is coming from the Treasury, which is a

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Speaker 2: slight difference, I guess, but just should be clear on that.

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Speaker 2: But it's very interesting, like you say, to actually hear

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Speaker 2: that coming from an area that is so focused on

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Speaker 2: economic progress and economic development like the Treasury, so actually

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Speaker 2: echo a lot of what we've been hearing in this

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Speaker 2: detailed report about just the fact that we're falling behind.

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Speaker 2: And it says here that we've got low levels, low

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Speaker 2: levels of investment in intangible capital, poor international connections, weak

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Speaker 2: technology and managerial skills, and inflexible or outdated regulations or

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Speaker 2: all possible causes which is just a huge range. It's

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Speaker 2: like where do we start, and it really has to

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Speaker 2: be a cultural attitudinal start. I think yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think when it comes to AI, the intangible capital

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Speaker 1: stuff is less of a priority with a lot of

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Speaker 1: the stuff in the digital world, it's really about speed

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Speaker 1: to market, how quickly you innovate and then commercialize that.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not sure if that's a big one. It's

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Speaker 1: how do you get people in middle management and above,

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Speaker 1: even at board level and CEO level understanding what needs

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Speaker 1: to happen in their organization to leverage this technology. We've

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Speaker 1: got a lot of work to do there.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot of work, like you said, But I

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Speaker 2: guess the good news is that we are actually starting

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Speaker 2: these conversations. We're seeing these reports coming out. It's not

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Speaker 2: just industry now, it's government, it's everybody saying that there

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Speaker 2: needs to be a greater focus on how we actually

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Speaker 2: use these emerging technologies and get them into people's hands.

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Speaker 1: Another area where we definitely need a better strategy is

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Speaker 1: in cybersecurity. And this week another report out from the GCSB,

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Speaker 1: and that's the Government Communications Security Bureau, and there's a

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Speaker 1: unit with a that called a National Cybersecurity Center and

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Speaker 1: some really interesting sort of looking back at a incident

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Speaker 1: that happened. There's this group called the Interparliamentary Alliance on China,

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Speaker 1: which is an international group of parliamentarians and they're all

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Speaker 1: really concerned about China and so they are trying to

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Speaker 1: hold China to account on things like human rights and

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Speaker 1: interference in politics around the world and stuff. Has been

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Speaker 1: investigating that recently with some interesting results. So they found

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Speaker 1: that there had been some targeting off these inter Parliamentary

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Speaker 1: Alliance members here in New Zealand. The a couple of

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Speaker 1: MPs are part of that group here, and Marie Brady,

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Speaker 1: the Canterbury University academic as an advisor to that group

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Speaker 1: as well Louisa Walls and their Simon O'Connor. So these

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Speaker 1: people were targeted by alleged attacks. This was flagged to

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Speaker 1: the New Zealand government by the FBI in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't tell those people and they're reflecting on

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Speaker 1: that now in this report saying this is really bad

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand, that all they think about at the

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Speaker 1: GCSB really is the integrity of our national infrastructure. They

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Speaker 1: don't actually think about the potential victims of these attacks,

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Speaker 1: so they should have gone there much earlier. They've also

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Speaker 1: flagged what I think is pretty gobsmacking is they don't

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Speaker 1: have any official procedures for dealing with other agencies when

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Speaker 1: it comes to cyber attacks and cybersecurity. It says in

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Speaker 1: the report that they're regularly going out to other agencies

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Speaker 1: and government departments to talk about cyber or related issues,

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Speaker 1: but it's not formalized anyway. I just assumed that all

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Speaker 1: of this was going on behind the scenes all the time,

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Speaker 1: but it's very ad hoc. So the report is basically

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Speaker 1: saying we need to improve our processes there and take

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Speaker 1: more of a victim centric view of cybersecurity, because we

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Speaker 1: know we've talked enough about this. We had Nigel latter

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Speaker 1: On last year on the podcast talking about the victims

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Speaker 1: of cybercrime and what it's like to be scared. For instance,

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Speaker 1: So when some's coming after you, a foreign power as

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Speaker 1: potentially trying to hack your systems to undermine your credibility,

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Speaker 1: you know that's equally as devastating. I think from a

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Speaker 1: professional point of view.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't imagine what it must be like to wake

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Speaker 2: up in the morning and find that you've been the

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Speaker 2: victim of an attack, and then that's been reported, and

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Speaker 2: then you've been basically told no, you haven't, or and

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Speaker 2: then yes you have, but we actually we had it contained,

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Speaker 2: and then you know who knows. At that point, you

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Speaker 2: must really lose a lot of faith in the people

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Speaker 2: that are supposed to be protecting you from these cyber attacks.

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Speaker 2: These attacks are just becoming more and more frequent and

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Speaker 2: more and more concerning, and if we don't have that

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Speaker 2: attention to detail that you would like to hope that

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Speaker 2: national security people would have. Personally, it makes me feel

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Speaker 2: a little bit like where should I be putting my faith?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, our colleague at Business Desk Deleep of FONSECA has

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Speaker 1: an interesting story on this we'll link to in the

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Speaker 1: show notes, and he's sort of suggest and it's pretty

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Speaker 1: explicit in this unclassified report that was released by the

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Speaker 1: GCSP which we'll also link to, that they are looking

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Speaker 1: out broadening their view off cybersecurity very much to those

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Speaker 1: foreign threats, and it comes on the back off that

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Speaker 1: attack that was disclosed earlier in the year. Our colleague

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Speaker 1: Patrick Smelley went down to the GCSP one of the

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Speaker 1: first press conferences they've done on an incident, a security

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Speaker 1: incident in a long time, and this was attacks that

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Speaker 1: China had launched against parliamentary services computer systems. So they

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Speaker 1: were finally after a year or longer, divulging what had

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Speaker 1: gone down there. So we've got that, We've got the

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Speaker 1: inter Parliamentary Group has been targeted as well. So finally

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Speaker 1: it appears as though our security agencies are saying, right,

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Speaker 1: we need to build more off this into our strategy

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Speaker 1: about how do we combat those threats but also support

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Speaker 1: the victims. So I think that's good. Deleep also says

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Speaker 1: in the story that a new cyber security strategy is

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Speaker 1: in the works with the aim of being released by

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Speaker 1: the end of the year. And I think that's really

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Speaker 1: crucial to beef that up because the current one we

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Speaker 1: have is weak. It was week when it was created.

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Speaker 1: So when you look across the Tasman to the US, Europe,

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Speaker 1: they really have prioritized cybersecurity. This is a chance for

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Speaker 1: us to do the same.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have such great access to information with

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Speaker 2: five Eyes and with our information allies, we should be

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Speaker 2: looking to them to support us and following some of

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Speaker 2: their processes and kind of learning from what they are

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Speaker 2: doing to be so beef because the last thing we

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Speaker 2: want is to be a weak link in that system.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it is really good to see that they

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Speaker 2: are starting to put some investment into strategy and thinking

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Speaker 2: about these things a little more deeply, and hopefully what

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Speaker 2: they come up with will be robust.

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Speaker 1: The collegial and sharing that information. But they expect us

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Speaker 1: to hold up our end of the bargain as well,

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Speaker 1: and part of that is really investing in the systems,

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Speaker 1: the capability, the skills to be really good at detecting

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Speaker 1: these threats and sharing our knowledge as well. So hopefully

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Speaker 1: that's part of whatever new strategy they come up with. Now,

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Speaker 1: those concerns we talked about earlier in the show about

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Speaker 1: the uptake of new advanced technologies isn't really anything new.

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Speaker 1: It's part of the reason why the Science for Technological

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Speaker 1: Innovation National Science Challenge was set up in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: It was one of eleven challenges that brought together multidisciplinary

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Speaker 1: teams to work on research in the public interest.

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Speaker 2: The challenges spanned climate change, the marine environment, healthcare, natural hazards,

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Speaker 2: through to the aging population, and creating high value nutritional products.

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Speaker 1: All big missions and problems we should be tackling. But

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Speaker 1: it was signaled in twenty twenty one by the Labor

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Speaker 1: government that challenges wouldn't continue past the ten year marc

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Speaker 1: and incoming Technology, Science and Innovation Minister Judith Collins confirmed

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Speaker 1: that late last year. It's meant that many of those

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Speaker 1: research projects funded by the six hundred and eighty million

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Speaker 1: dollars over the last decade have come to an end.

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Speaker 1: Many scientists have lost their funding, in some cases their

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Speaker 1: jobs at institutions ranging from Callahan Innovation to NIWA and

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Speaker 1: Victoria University.

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Speaker 2: Yet another review of a science system is currently underway,

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Speaker 2: led by Sir Peter Gockman.

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Speaker 1: And the message from the outgoing directors of these challenges

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Speaker 1: is don't give up on mission led science.

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Speaker 2: Which is what exactly mission led science.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a type of research that aims to solve

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Speaker 1: big picture problems and create real impacts. In New Zealand

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Speaker 1: we have a lot of so called investigator led research

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Speaker 1: blue skies, basic research designed to come up with new knowledge.

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Speaker 1: We're very good at that. At the other end of

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Speaker 1: the spectrum, we've got u user led science, which is

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Speaker 1: really innovation, turning science into things we can use business

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Speaker 1: is really good at that. In the middle is mission

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Speaker 1: led science, identifying problems like an aging population or sea

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Speaker 1: level rise and figuring out what we need to know

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Speaker 1: to do something meaningful about them.

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Speaker 2: It basically acknowledges the fact that a lot of science,

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Speaker 2: while worthy and high quality, is disconnected from society's needs.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's typically transdisciplinary and nature, it spans multiple organizations

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Speaker 1: and has a singular goal to solve a pressing problem,

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Speaker 1: and it's directly tied to policy outcomes, so it's more

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Speaker 1: likely to get buy in from politicians. It's solving problems

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Speaker 1: that are facing them now.

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Speaker 2: Professor Sally Davenport, who has our background in chemistry, innovation

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Speaker 2: and business management, lead the Science for Technological Innovation National

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Speaker 2: Science Challenge for seven and a half years. She's just

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Speaker 2: finished up at the Challenge and at Victoria University after

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Speaker 2: more than thirty years.

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Speaker 1: A few months back she commissioned the New Zealand Institute

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Speaker 1: of Economic Research to estimate the economic impact of some

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Speaker 1: of the challenges projects that were closest to commercialization.

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Speaker 2: It's a rare effort to try and quantify the output

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Speaker 2: of that extensive work and public investment in science. So

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Speaker 2: here's Peter's interview with Sally Davenport on mission led science

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Speaker 2: and how to keep the spirit of the National Science

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Speaker 2: Challenges alive.

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Speaker 1: So, Sally, thanks for coming on the Business off Tech.

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Speaker 1: Great to see you again. Now slightly poignant, sad you're

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Speaker 1: coming to the end of about seven and a half

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Speaker 1: years in your term as director of the Size for

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Speaker 1: Technological Innovation National Science Challenge. All eleven challenges are being

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Speaker 1: wound down, so we will see all of those researchers

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Speaker 1: and directors of those programs sort of scattered to the winds.

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Speaker 1: And this was nearly eight hundred million dollars of funding

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Speaker 1: over a decade, one hundred and six million to the

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Speaker 1: fifty National Science Challenge, which is close to my heart

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Speaker 1: because it focused on innovation and technological innovation, translating that

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Speaker 1: research into science and technology that can be applied.

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Speaker 4: In the real world.

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Speaker 1: As you've sort of come to the end of the

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Speaker 1: road with this challenge, you commissioned some research from the

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Speaker 1: Institute of Economic Research to actually look back at what

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Speaker 1: the impact of this was, and it turns out it's

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Speaker 1: quite significant. They've even put a numerical value on it

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Speaker 1: in the hundreds of millions of dollars tell us about

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Speaker 1: that research and what the NJEDIEI found.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So the sorts of dollar numbers they put

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Speaker 3: on them were very gratifying, obviously because they well overshadowed

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Speaker 3: one hundred and six million dollar investments. So that we

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Speaker 3: chose eleven projects from our portfolio. So we have a

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Speaker 3: portfolio of about over one hundred projects of different sizes,

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Speaker 3: and we chose the ones that were the furthest along

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Speaker 3: the line in the commercialization path if you think of

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Speaker 3: that as a sort of a linear technology readiness level

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Speaker 3: type of course it's never that linear, but the ones

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Speaker 3: that seem to be closest to market, and we gave

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Speaker 3: access to as much information as we could and obviously

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Speaker 3: access also to the researchers and ask them if they

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Speaker 3: could give us a rough estimate, because no, you're not.

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Speaker 3: It's hard. It's really hard with early stage research. So

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Speaker 3: the nicest number I think we quote mostly is that

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Speaker 3: the eleven projects will probably be earning three hundred million

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Speaker 3: a year in a decade's time.

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Speaker 4: Wow. Now there are some caveats around it.

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Speaker 1: This isn't based on the capital of these companies of

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Speaker 1: race to date and things like that. This is about

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Speaker 1: the market potential of these.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they're not at that. Very few of them

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Speaker 3: have spun off yet and very few of them have

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Speaker 3: formed companies. So the total Eyes is probably the one

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Speaker 3: that's the most advanced in terms of having got to

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Speaker 3: that sort of stage. So no, it's so that's why

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Speaker 3: it's harder, because it's based on market assessment of what

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Speaker 3: the potential is, looking at similar companies, looking at internationally

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Speaker 3: what's on this in the same sort of area, and

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Speaker 3: thinking if you've got us five ten percent, maybe not

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Speaker 3: even that much of a market, what could it be worth.

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Speaker 3: And obviously that's just the economic impact. It's very even

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Speaker 3: harder to do anything that's environmental, social, or cultural impact.

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Speaker 3: So we had one of the reasons we did this

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Speaker 3: was because of our mission. So our mission was to

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Speaker 3: enhance the capacity of New Zealand to use physical science

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Speaker 3: and engineering for economic growth. And so even the last

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Speaker 3: few years we've been really pushing hard on impact and

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Speaker 3: trying to support our projects to think more critically about

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Speaker 3: what they need to get towards commercialization and so, and

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Speaker 3: our board had also pushed us to try and think

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Speaker 3: more about impact. I think Enby was also very keen

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Speaker 3: for us to see if we can quantify something, because

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Speaker 3: we did certainly have it our original proposer. We had

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Speaker 3: some lovely big figures on what we might be able

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Speaker 3: to return, but of course, you know, it's only been

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Speaker 3: seven or eight years so and some of those projects

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Speaker 3: we've only funded in the line five years, so not

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Speaker 3: even right from the beginning. So it's quite gratifying, and

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Speaker 3: I'd like to think there's a lot of that is

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Speaker 3: because of the wrap around support we put in place.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of our projects where the relationships were

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Speaker 3: formed and funded, which is really important, way before we

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Speaker 3: ever got through a proposal, So you've got that early

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Speaker 3: input hopefully coming from a market user knowledge holders as well,

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Speaker 3: so it's much more how do you get that sort

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Speaker 3: of collaboration happening early before even some research has been

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Speaker 3: decided upon, And so I think that then and then

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Speaker 3: of course we wrap around support. We did a lot

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Speaker 3: of work with key we Neet, for example, around commercialization skills.

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Speaker 3: What we did find quite early on was that it's

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Speaker 3: because we don't own any intellectual property, that it's the institutions,

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Speaker 3: the University's CRIS, the research institutes that hold the IP.

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Speaker 3: So we didn't have any direct influence on trying to

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Speaker 3: get them towards the market. So in our second chance,

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Speaker 3: the first thing we did was appoint a commercialization development

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Speaker 3: manager and gave him now her some budget to be

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Speaker 3: able to actually do some of that market analysis. Move

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Speaker 3: these projects so that the very as you know, the

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Speaker 3: very overstretched ttos and research offices. You know, they've got

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Speaker 3: large amounts of potential things they could work on, but

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Speaker 3: very small capacity of their own to do that sort

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Speaker 3: of work. So what we needed to do was move

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Speaker 3: our projects closer.

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Speaker 4: You talked about toku Eys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, take us inside that very promising company. I've read

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Speaker 1: a bit about what do they do and how did

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Speaker 1: the challenge add value to Tokui's.

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Speaker 3: When we think about evaluation like this, we think about

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Speaker 3: from a funder's point of view. So I want to

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Speaker 3: know the causality of what my little investment, and it

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Speaker 3: wasn't a huge investment in turkeys because it was one

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Speaker 3: of our seed projects. So it was probably two hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand over a couple of years. So Tokeuy's a company

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Speaker 3: based out of Auckland. The founder and essen his father

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Speaker 3: had blindness caused by diabetes and so It's always been

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Speaker 3: a sort of a family passion thing, I think for

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Speaker 3: partly to try and see if you could detect this

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Speaker 3: sort of potential blindness early before it got to the

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Speaker 3: stage where it was you actually were blind. So he's

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Speaker 3: developed an IAI approach so that they can look at

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Speaker 3: people's rationiers and see not just for diabetes now, but

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Speaker 3: for any other impacts the potentially from a health point

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Speaker 3: of view.

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Speaker 1: And this is with standard smartphones and they need specialized

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Speaker 1: equipment to do it, so it could be done in

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Speaker 1: Central Africa or somewhere where people that have access to

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Speaker 1: indicated equipment consolutely.

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Speaker 4: So this was a c project, a.

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Speaker 1: Couple of hundred k you put into and what did

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Speaker 1: your researchers help out with there?

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Speaker 3: What was more important was the support. So our commercialization

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Speaker 3: developed manager then Enrico Trolston, who's now working in Australia,

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Speaker 3: did a lot of helping with connections. We work very

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Speaker 3: closely with other things that he needed. So there'll be

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Speaker 3: just small amounts of money sometimes just twenty thirty thousand

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Speaker 3: was all on. Rico would destinly do get someone into

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Speaker 3: help some market analysis, get someone into do an ip

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Speaker 3: CHE freedom of operation type thing, So there was a

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Speaker 3: lot of wrap around supportes and on several of the

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Speaker 3: courses that we put together. And I've got a lovely

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Speaker 3: quote from someone else that says that one of the

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Speaker 3: things that sifty does really well is it's not about

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Speaker 3: the technology, it's about supporting the people to develop the technology.

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Speaker 3: So it's a really human centage. And this comes back

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Speaker 3: to the notion that behavioral change is often going to

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Speaker 3: be your longest lasting impact, not necessarily a piece of tech.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this really goes to the heart of what

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Speaker 1: the challenges were about. We need mission lead science where

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Speaker 1: we collaborate across the science sector and across institutions. We

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Speaker 1: bring the best minds together and work on climate change

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Speaker 1: or innovation or whatever.

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Speaker 4: And I think the bit that doesn't really get the.

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Speaker 1: Recognition is the extent to which the capability has been

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Speaker 1: built to do that, particularly in the safety challenge. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to measure that. But if you don't have that capability,

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Speaker 1: you can't get the mix of skills and you need

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Speaker 1: to actually launch companies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think one of the things that we did,

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Speaker 3: particularly with our bigger projects, was we put a lot

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Speaker 3: of effort into the formation process. So We called it

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Speaker 3: a sort of a mission lab to mission design sort

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Speaker 3: of process where we had Rodorham facilitated a couple of

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Speaker 3: these mission labs for US, where we bore them senior

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Speaker 3: industry and MARII leaders and said, okay, what should we

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Speaker 3: do that's sticky to New Zealand and stretchy so still

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Speaker 3: good science, but there's a logic to do it here.

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Speaker 3: And then what we did, which I think is one

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Speaker 3: of the key differences between that and contestical funding, is

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Speaker 3: we said, right, we're going to form one team. There's

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Speaker 3: this much money on the table. Come to a workshop

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Speaker 3: with your ideas, bring your capability to a workshop, not

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Speaker 3: your pet project, because we're just going to form one team.

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Speaker 3: And I think that was actually quite liberating because it

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Speaker 3: meant you didn't have to have this huge CV to

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Speaker 3: be able to lead a project. If you had some

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Speaker 3: really good ideas and we thought that you could contribute

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Speaker 3: to the team, we would then you know, bring you

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Speaker 3: in as part of this team. So we've now seen

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Speaker 3: that they just have taken off some of those bid projects.

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Speaker 3: Katha Simpson, I think is on recordars saying that was

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Speaker 3: one of the most exciting projects that she was involved in,

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Speaker 3: which is see the Intelligent Oceans one. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that was a few years ago. She might have had

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Speaker 3: some more exciting ones now, but but yeah, so that

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Speaker 3: you know, because for example, that the one she worked

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Speaker 3: on was that started off as a notion of Intelligent

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Speaker 3: Oceans and then became precision farming technology for agriculture, so

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Speaker 3: it's about farming muscles and the deep sea. What basically

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Speaker 3: it was was about forming really smart sensors to go

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Speaker 3: on boys and also underwater cameras that could send images back.

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Speaker 3: So we've got a couple of technologies coming out of

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Speaker 3: that now secret. But that project had call throng people,

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Speaker 3: yes for the muscle expertise, but it had underwater sense

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Speaker 3: of people, underwater camera people, underwater communications people, you know,

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Speaker 3: so they had all of these sorts of people who'd

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Speaker 3: never worked before. And then also the company stayed in

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Speaker 3: the room and for for example, took them out on

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Speaker 3: the boats.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot of inkind contribution. So a really exciting.

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Speaker 4: Where's that one that the project in this development?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so that one finished in that form a couple

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Speaker 3: of years ago, because what we decided to do was

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Speaker 3: when we found out in June twenty twenty one that

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Speaker 3: we weren't going to be there wasn't going to be

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Speaker 3: a fifty version too. We decided that rather than I mean,

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Speaker 3: one option was to just smear the money we had

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Speaker 3: left across all the current projects for the last couple

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Speaker 3: of years, but we decided that that wasn't necessarily going

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Speaker 3: to give us the best impact. So we decided we

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Speaker 3: wanted to do what we called ending with impact projects,

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Speaker 3: and so all of the projects were given the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to put forward a couple of discrete technologies that if

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Speaker 3: we put some more investment in for the last two years,

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Speaker 3: might really accelerate them. So one of the ones is

439
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 3: the underwater camera visualization from Canterbury with Rich Green has

440
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 3: really doing going really well. And there's another one working

441
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 3: on how to best gather data for farmers, muscle farmers

442
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 3: and those maritime farmers and visualize it and that's a

443
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 3: call throng, So that's also been given some extra threat.

444
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, so you've got these really call projects. Is

445
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: that there was another one the digital Marai yes Artia, Yeah, yeah,

446
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: how's that one going good?

447
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 3: So that that started out when one of the senior

448
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 3: Komata at one of our mission labs said I want

449
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: to have my grave with the button on it so

450
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 3: that when my makapunas makapuna come along, they can push

451
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 3: that button and avatar of me will come up and

452
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 3: I'll talk to them all about their history, or that

453
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 3: they could go into their kitchen and that it would

454
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 3: be speaking Japanese to them and things. So this was

455
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 3: the original vision from this guy who stayed in touch

456
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 3: with the project end with sifty for the whole way.

457
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 3: And yeah, so what we did, we'd set up the

458
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 3: Artia project, which is basically again using cell phones rather

459
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 3: than very specialized technology, but capturing images from the wonderful

460
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 3: cliff flighting Mara down in Bluff, which is that's because

461
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 3: Hemifanga who's the leader of that project at Massi, that's

462
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 3: his rye. But doing it's like virtual reality on steroids.

463
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 3: It's sort of got. It uses things called vauxhalls, which

464
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 3: I don't know what they are.

465
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 4: It's very much so.

466
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 3: The idea now is that they've got a couple more

467
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: projects going. One in particular it's about how do you

468
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 3: use these things to run hui so that people who

469
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: are in Melbourne or the other end of the country

470
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 3: can actually be in the hue in a sort of

471
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: avatar type experience. So that's one of the things that's

472
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: going on at the moment.

473
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: One of the big elements of the safety challenge, I thought,

474
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: was the way that it embraced taur Mari and matranga

475
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: marii traditional Mari knowledge that may preceded your times was

476
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: in the setup of that of safety, but you embraced

477
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: that and carried that on. What was the reasoning behind

478
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: that and how do you encapitulate all what was learned

479
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: and the capability that was built.

480
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well, I think there's several things there. I mean,

481
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: all of the National Science junges had to address vision

482
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 3: MATURANNGA and certainly I think when you think about safety

483
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 3: where physical science is and engineering, and I think one

484
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 3: of the first questions is how does vision mtonger work

485
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: in that space? You know, it's a lot a lot

486
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 3: easier to think about it in terms of you know,

487
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 3: environmental sciences or health sciences. You know, there is much

488
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 3: more historical logic for embracing vision art and those research areas.

489
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 3: So that's one of the things we had to first

490
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 3: explore and I think one of the things that we

491
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: realized very early on is that, as you say, the

492
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: capability in physical sciences engineering isn't very strong. So we

493
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: had to find people. And I think it's been about people.

494
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 3: It really has been relationships formed, getting people like de

495
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 3: Tucka Keegan on board is now a co chair, but

496
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 3: was originally you know, one of the researchers involved with

497
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 3: Dartia Mali computer scientist. We had our program office with

498
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 3: Willie John Martin, who's now obviously the first person first

499
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 3: MARII lead of innovation in NB was in our office.

500
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 3: So these people and res Maw's is another key one.

501
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 3: These people helped us to get those relationships. And I

502
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 3: think one of the things Commember doing in seminar at

503
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 3: MB years ago about our journey, and I think the

504
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 3: thing was is that most researchers are really interested in

505
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: this and what the potential is. It's not that they

506
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 3: don't want to be engaged in til Mahi, it's that

507
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 3: it's a little scary, it's a little it's unknown. And

508
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 3: I think what we ended up doing was deciding from

509
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: a capacity development point of view, that we would provide

510
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: safe opportunities both for Mari to be involved with fifty

511
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: and for non Mari researchers to engage with in til Mahi.

512
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 3: So for example, we sent one of our capacity development

513
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 3: options was to go to the Federation of Maria Authorities

514
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 3: conference and that's the most optimistic, engaging place to go

515
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: where you'll see one thousand year cash flow projections and

516
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: all this sort of stuff. And we were finding through

517
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 3: our relationship with the Federation of Maria Authorities with Tracy

518
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: Holpoppa was on our board for quite some time that

519
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 3: they are very keen stud embracing technology as well. And

520
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: in fact their last conference last year, they had a

521
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 3: whole session the whole morning on innovation and including an

522
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 3: AI and that sort of thing and the impact it

523
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 3: could have on Mari businesses. So I think a lot

524
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 3: of it was going and humble, trying stuff and just

525
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: showing up for things. And also one of the things

526
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 3: we did with one of our projects is were some

527
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,239
Speaker 3: of that projects. What we realized was that there are

528
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 3: some institutional barriers which can change you don't they don't

529
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: have to be there. So for example, a lot of

530
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 3: the IP policies from the universities say that any data

531
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 3: that's used in a university funded project becomes I zoned

532
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 3: by the university. But we were working with techmedia on

533
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 3: the RTA project. You know, they would not even say

534
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: that they own the data they have because it's been

535
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 3: gathered from the all of their community. So we changed

536
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: the IP policy, working with an IP lawyer, mari IP

537
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: lawyer to change IP policy, which is now more widely used.

538
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: That's frequently cited as a problem with the commercialization of science.

539
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: The restrictive ownership of IP comes out of the public

540
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: science system as a disincentive to researchers wanting to commercialize

541
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: their their science and take.

542
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 4: That on as a startup.

543
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we could do a whole podcast on there.

544
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: I'll just even to finish off on the Marty side

545
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 3: of things. One of the things that the other thing

546
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 3: that we did was we the other thing that we

547
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: weren't allowed to do was have a non university or

548
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 3: CRI as a research partner. But you know, if you're

549
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: going to be weak in tar mari, the knowledge holders

550
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: are not in the universities and cris, they're in the

551
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: MARII organizations. So we changed our approach so that we

552
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 3: could actually recognize and we've done it a couple of

553
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: times now a Maria organization as a genuine research partner.

554
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: In fact, one of them now holds one of the

555
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: contracts for that so and I think you know that's

556
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 3: if you're going to use this language about embracing vision

557
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: and then you have to also think about who is

558
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: the knowledge holders and how do our current systems CAW

559
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: do they be changed to enable those sorts of relationships

560
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 3: to endure.

561
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: So we've got we've come to the end of the challenges,

562
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: a decade of work, thousands of researchers involved in it.

563
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: I guess disappointing to you in the other directors that

564
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: although this was flagged back in twenty twenty one under

565
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: the previous government, so it's not as our national has

566
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: come in.

567
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 4: And pull the rug.

568
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: So why do you think there wasn't enough momentum there

569
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: to keep this going?

570
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 3: I think well, I mean, in ten years is a

571
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: long policy in the New Zealand, as you know, and

572
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: it's quite a long policy in an innovation space. The

573
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 3: cause have been going longer, but that policy has been

574
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 3: tweaked along the way as well. I mean, I don't

575
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: my impression was that there's still a will and a

576
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 3: need in the system for something like the National Science Challenges.

577
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: It's just that even under the last regime, it wasn't

578
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: going to be ready to go as an ender during

579
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: this year or even early next year. And I think

580
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: it's that hiatus that's the particular problem. I think the

581
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 3: mission led approach is Internet nationally now just taken for

582
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: granted that it's necessary, and I think we will, hopefully,

583
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 3: I'm a not bought optimist, have something like this in

584
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 3: the future. Now, there are going to be a lot

585
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 3: of documents coming out in the next few months from

586
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: the various challenges and cross innsc challenges, which we are

587
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: all callings of our legacy documents that hopefully we'll be

588
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: able to feed into some of the deliberations around what

589
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: might be there.

590
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: And that's quite timely because Sir Peter Blackman, who was

591
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: quite integral to the setting up of the National Science Challenges,

592
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: he was the chief Science Advisor to John Key at

593
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: the time.

594
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 4: He is now running the Science.

595
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: Advisory Group, which are looking at the future makeup of

596
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: the science system. You've submitted to that group, and I

597
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: think you said relationship BILLIN is not currently recognized nor

598
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: funded in our system. So many years of calls from

599
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,959
Speaker 1: more collaborative multidisciplinary research with industry and MARI are not

600
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: supported by appropriate process.

601
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 4: Or fund the models.

602
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: So your message to them is, don't jettus in what

603
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: we've built up over the last decade. This stuff does work.

604
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: We've got much more capable researchers as a result. Don't

605
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: just focus on contestability of funding commercial outcomes.

606
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 4: You need this for mission led science.

607
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think one of the things that's you know,

608
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 3: there's a lot of people said to us, but isn't

609
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 3: that really expensive if you're going to spend a lot

610
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 3: of money doing all these mission labs and these relationship

611
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 3: forming things before you ever get to proposal? You know,

612
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: that's that's but actually that the moment in the contestal system,

613
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 3: all of that stuff is funded. It's not recognized, it's hidden.

614
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: So particularly all of that the ninety percent of people

615
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: whose projects don't get funded, the institutions are wearing that cost.

616
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 3: So there's this all this unfunded effort that happens at

617
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 3: the moment, which I would say is far more expensive

618
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: than our little investment in doing these relationship formation things

619
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 3: before and enduring and after our projects.

620
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the reality is is entire pointed out. If

621
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: even one of the projects off those eleven that they've

622
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: focused on makes it through to commercialization, they're projecting that

623
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: that would have paid for the entire eight years off

624
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: all of the projects that you worked on and had

625
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: a sort of the venture capital model as well. You know,

626
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: you do ten investments, one of them will go big

627
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: and pay for all the failed ones or the ones

628
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: that didn't make it. So if they look at it

629
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: through that lens, all of that capability and stuff is

630
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: actually paid for by the commercial outcome. But it strikes me,

631
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: and the thing I really liked about safety was it

632
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: was sort of a stand in for the fact that

633
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: we don't have a real focus on technology, advanced technology

634
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: and our CRIS or even in our centers of research excellence.

635
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: We're in a state now where Callahan is laying off

636
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: a lot of its scientific capability.

637
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 4: How do we plug this gap?

638
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: Do we need something in this space that is a dedicated,

639
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: public owned research institution that focuses on these emerging technologies.

640
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: I think one of the things to the NSCs is

641
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: that it shows you can do a lot of the

642
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 3: sort of work virtually you don't have to actually build

643
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: a brick and mortar institution. But it's about more coordination

644
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 3: than the system. And that's what we did, was we

645
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 3: would and it's the same with the Centers of Research excellence.

646
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 3: What they do effectively by having this sort of national

647
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: coordination is you break down the barriers between institutions. So

648
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 3: if I'm sifty, I can go and work with somebody

649
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 3: else in another research university and use their equipment because

650
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: we're working on a project together, all right, So you

651
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 3: break down those barriers because what lasting you need is,

652
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: you know, every institution buying the cheapest bit of equipment

653
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 3: they can because that's all they can afford, as opposed

654
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 3: to us jointly investing in some sort of infrastructure that

655
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 3: would be a national resource. And so I think there's

656
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: a lot of things about that side of things. And

657
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 3: when we always called ourselves the tech four channel challenge

658
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: because unlike a lot of the other challenges, we weren't

659
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 3: focused on a particular sector. And it's one of the

660
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 3: reasons actually that's change from trans un trench too. We

661
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: used to have a sort of matrix structure which are

662
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: with our themes, which were all neurobotics, automation, new materials,

663
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 3: digital and sectors. So we did have a sector cross section.

664
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 3: We actually got rid of them because these technologies are

665
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 3: ubiquitous their platforms if you like, which is the language,

666
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 3: it also gets used and so you don't want so

667
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 3: we always talk about we're agnostic to sector that and

668
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 3: in fact we use a marianima as a carter phrase

669
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 3: that it's not picking one as it's working with the willing.

670
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: So if you like a lot of the fact that

671
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 3: we happen to do some work in agriculture or a

672
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 3: forestry with some robotics, it's actually because they were willing

673
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 3: to do that project and it was like a demonstrator

674
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 3: which could then diffuse to other sectors and what have you.

675
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: So I do think there is something about national coordination

676
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 3: for some of these really really important for our future technologies.

677
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: You know, I'm a technology optimist, but you also have

678
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 3: to be aware that you could be careful what some

679
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 3: of these things are done with the proper ethical underpinning.

680
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely and the AI and what data you use and

681
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: how you use it, particularly with MARI data for instance,

682
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: a sovereignty over that data.

683
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 3: And we've doing a lot of work in the Martrior

684
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: Data sovereignty. We've got a project with the Erebe Letter

685
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: Datas Group now which then they're the holder of the contract.

686
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 3: But it took us quite a few years to get

687
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 3: to a technical project because there were all these political

688
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 3: and ethical issues that we had to work through first

689
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 3: to build that trust and the ability to do a

690
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: technical project. So there's a lot of that's level of

691
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 3: coordination and that took a long time because they have

692
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: to build up trust and there's been so many abuses

693
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 3: historically of particularly indigenous data not being used appropriately that

694
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 3: you do have to be very careful. And that's where

695
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: sifty and all of the other Nation Science Challenges had

696
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: a Kahui Mali which was advising us at all levels.

697
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 3: So they advised our board, leadership team and our projects

698
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 3: individual projects on how to think about some of the

699
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 3: consequences of the designed research in terms of how it

700
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: might be adapted to make sure it's robust.

701
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: In While you were director of the Safety Challenge for

702
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: a number of years early a decade, you were a.

703
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 4: Commissioner on the Productivity Commission.

704
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: Sadly another body that did a lot of great work

705
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: that's been wound down in twenty four reflecting on your

706
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: time there and just the constant we're constantly being told

707
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: we're not productive enough. We're working harder and longer than

708
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: everyone else in the world and producing less.

709
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 4: What was your key.

710
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: Takeaway from your time there and all the research that

711
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: the Commission did during your tenure about what the focus

712
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: really needs to be on.

713
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's such a huge, multi dimensional question.

714
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 3: I think, perhaps particularly in our space, one of the

715
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: things that came through time and time again was that

716
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 3: we've got some really good frontier firms in terms of

717
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 3: their technological abilities and what have you, in their international scope,

718
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: but they often tend to be quite small, and there

719
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 3: tends to be a huge tale. So our system doesn't

720
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: tend to and it just sounds a bit negative. Our

721
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: system doesn't tend to weed out firms that aren't performing

722
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: well so you can survive. Yeah, and we also tend

723
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 3: to do you know. I can remember when we previous projects,

724
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 3: we were looking at productivity issues in sort of biotech

725
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 3: firms as well as food and bed to firms, and

726
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: often the turning point to when you suddenly got to

727
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: a successful firm was often when a new generation came through.

728
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 3: There was some classic firms that were extracting things from

729
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 3: ebertoire leftovers and things high value materials, but that we're

730
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 3: using very basic equipment. And so the new person would

731
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: coming and no, no, no, we need to get more

732
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 3: efficient and productive and high quality equipment. We've always got this,

733
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 3: She'll be right, we'll make do type.

734
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 4: You know, I'm not as we've had to. We haven't

735
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 4: had the resources.

736
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: And I guess one of the big issues is capital.

737
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: We keep coming back to and as a conversation at

738
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: the moment about how do we free up more New

739
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: Zealand capital from sovereign funds or key we save funds

740
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: that go into early stage companies because the reason that

741
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: they're taking so long to get going is because they're

742
00:38:59,120 --> 00:38:59,959
Speaker 1: having to eke out.

743
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're often they're sorts of the size of

744
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 3: investments here a lot smaller than they are internationally, and

745
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: things like that. So there's a whole lot. That's why

746
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: I'm saying it's a really multi difficult and that's where

747
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 3: it needs a bit more. It su coordination. I mean,

748
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 3: one of the things that I know has been a

749
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: bit of a bug bear, and I think I think

750
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: you might have been written about it was the fact

751
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 3: that we're not very good in New Zealand about actually

752
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 3: valuing our own companies. It's sort of like we do

753
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 3: a reverse not invented hair syndrome and the thing from

754
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 3: offshore has got to be better, and especially if it's cheaper,

755
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 3: and whereas actually, you know, the first thing a New

756
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 3: Zealand company is going to do when they go overseas,

757
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 3: the person they're trying to sell to is going to say, well,

758
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 3: does your government buy from you? And if you get

759
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 3: to know, well, then you know, if you're own country won't,

760
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 3: hasn't got faith in your products, then why should somebody internationally?

761
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 3: So I think there's all these sorts of little things

762
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: that if you started thinking about, Okay, how do we

763
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 3: align procurement with support, with access to some longer term

764
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: capital and things like that.

765
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're coming out of thirty three years at Victoria Universe,

766
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: you're emeritus professor, you're still involved with the university. But

767
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: at a time when really the university sector is in

768
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: crist there's a lot of labs are being trimmed back,

769
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: budgets are very tight. Will we still have that science

770
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: deep science capability to feed into these startups? The way

771
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: that we're going, We're going to have to do something

772
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: to stop the blood leaving this sector in terms of

773
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: core research funding is going backwards.

774
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 3: There's no silver bullet for that at the moment. I mean,

775
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 3: we're not there any country that's suffering, but I think

776
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 3: it seems to be particularly because of our scale. It's

777
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 3: much more obvious because I've just been in Europe and

778
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 3: there's many issues in the system, in particular in the

779
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 3: UK as well. But I mean, one of the things

780
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: that really delighted me with Safety's portfolio is that we

781
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 3: put a huge emphasis into supporting early career research. As

782
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 3: you know, there's often quite a gap from people doing

783
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 3: their PhD and you know, you only get funding if

784
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 3: you've got a really long track record CV, you know,

785
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 3: so it's really hard, and so we put a lot

786
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,919
Speaker 3: of effort into supporting early career researchers to give them

787
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 3: leadership training, because you don't get taught how to lead

788
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 3: a science group if you're in the institution cris might

789
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: be different, but if you're in a university, you get

790
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 3: taught how to run a school, but you don't necessarily

791
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: get taught how to run a leadership that run a

792
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: science team. I mean it probably assumes that you learn

793
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 3: how to run it from your PhD supervisor. Will that's

794
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: going to be a bit hit and miss. So you know,

795
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 3: those sorts of things like giving them the opportunities to

796
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 3: get build confidence in what they're doing, help them form

797
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 3: those relationships. We put a huge amount of unseen effort

798
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 3: into mentoring.

799
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: What is next for you, your sort of a free

800
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: agent at the moment, any plans in this particular area

801
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: to keep some of this work or this momentum going.

802
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really keen as an organizational scholar to actually

803
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 3: keep writing a bit more about and thinking a bit

804
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 3: more about what the ennersees have done in the sheep.

805
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 3: So I'm hoping to be able to gather some of

806
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 3: the data that's sitting in MB because every year we

807
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 3: had to write a forward looking plan. So that's like

808
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 3: your strategy and you have to do and your important narrative.

809
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 3: So looking back, so you've got this wonderful serious time,

810
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 3: you know, actually dynamic series across time of what going

811
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 3: to do, what we did, what we're going to do,

812
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 3: what we did. So I'm really keen just to do

813
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: that for my own purposes. I'm still quite connected into

814
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 3: the international innovation community. I've been doing some work, particularly

815
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 3: with the group out of r MIT but into Europe

816
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 3: through the Horizons Project, around how to help train researchers

817
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 3: around thinking about impact, particularly younger researchers and working in

818
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 3: that space. And so because actually, you know, while we

819
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: might think of impact Newberal broadly about all these other dimensions,

820
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: still a lot of people are trained to just think

821
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: about impact as publishing in high impact.

822
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 4: Journals, and that's what we've been through.

823
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: The firm message has been we're great at impact in

824
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: terms of journals, but we need to move beyond that.

825
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: That's sort of the message from MB and policy wants.

826
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 3: It's been the message for decades and decades. And I

827
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: think while you've got incentive, you've got to look at

828
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 3: the incentive system. You know that we looked at this

829
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 3: through the the Productivity Commission with the twenty seventeen Futures

830
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 3: of Teritiary Education. How do you check the incentive structure

831
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 3: and the education and the Twish education sector to make

832
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 3: these sorts of transitions if you like. So, yeah, so

833
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 3: I'm just hoping to keep writing. I'm also potentially looking

834
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: for public sector directorship's pets to keep the brain cells

835
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 3: and do things like that.

836
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: Well, it would be great to continue to have your

837
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: input into all of this, So good luck with that

838
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: and thanks so much, Sally, thanks for coming on the show. Okay,

839
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: thank you so Ben. This challenge in particular, I was

840
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: particularly interested in because it was doing lots of innovative

841
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: things that really could translate into commercial services. Robots underwater robots,

842
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: looking at aquaculture installations in the Marlborough Sounds, the digital Maria.

843
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: Thing I really loved it was fresh water projects. It

844
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: was a lot of different things employing technology and a

845
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 1: lot of great scientists from around the country. So that's

846
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 1: a bit easier to try and put an economic value

847
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: on than you know, natural hazards research or even climate research,

848
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: although they're really important as well. So they've taken a

849
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 1: stab at it. They've said within a decade we could

850
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: see three hundred million dollars per annum returned from some

851
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 1: of these projects doing really well. And it's quite speculative.

852
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: You know, these companies or technologies are in the early

853
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: stages of development, some of them will fail, some of

854
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: them might go big, but that's sort of the venture

855
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: capital model. Really is you invest in one hundred things

856
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: and ten of them deliver great returns and pay you

857
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 1: back on all the things that didn't make it. So

858
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: I think they're probably in the ballpark on that, and

859
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: it is a good indication of where you can go

860
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: with this mission led science. Obviously there are lots of

861
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: other missions that aren't going to return a dollar value,

862
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: but they're going to save us money or they're going

863
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 1: to make us more productive or make our health system

864
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: more efficient, which will mean we can do more with

865
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: our tax payer dollars. So that's I think what Sally

866
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: Damnport and others are saying is since this National Science

867
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: Challenges were established, many countries around the world have taken

868
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: this approach to a greater extent Mission led science and

869
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: times are tough, we're looking for short term outcomes, but

870
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: don't give up on this whole premise of it. I

871
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: think Sir Peter Gluckman, in his international capacity the Science Council,

872
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: has been pushing that message as well, and is likely

873
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: something that he will carry on as the guy who's

874
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: been tasked with reorganizing the science system.

875
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ten years is a long time for many things,

876
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,959
Speaker 2: but when it comes to deep tech science tech. It's

877
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: really a bare minimum in a lot of cases before

878
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 2: you even start to see some returns. That's kind of

879
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 2: known in the deep tech venture capital space. So it

880
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 2: feels a little bit like this thing's being pushed over

881
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: just as it's given being given time to get to

882
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: its feet, and we will see the returns from what

883
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 2: was there, but it's sad that we won't see another

884
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 2: cycle of that kind of be brought through. But hopefully

885
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 2: there's a huge amount of learning. And this is one

886
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: of the things that I think is really important in

887
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 2: the science world when you're talking about government, is that

888
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 2: we need to make sure that a lot of the

889
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 2: learning that happened is not lost and that we don't

890
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: just fall back into two old habits like you mentioned

891
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: in the interview about how hYP is attributed from learning

892
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: institutes or from creating these these really important communities that

893
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: can support and help and grow and improve the research

894
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: that's being done. So, yeah, I think that's really really vital.

895
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: Is not just the funding loss is sad, but if

896
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 2: we lose all of the things that we've learned about

897
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: how to do mission led science, that would be a tragedy.

898
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess they by nature and mission and is

899
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: not going to be a permanent fixture. You achieve the

900
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: mission and its mission accomplished, and obviously that climate change

901
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: and that natural hazards you're never going to solve that

902
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: mission is always going to be challenges. But we never expected,

903
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: I think it wasn't a foregone conclusion anyway, that these

904
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: things would roll over and get another best part of

905
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: a billion dollars in funding. That was too much to expect.

906
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: But to see all of them jettisoned and without much

907
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: of a backward look by the government as to what

908
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 1: we've learned. It's great that people like Sally are basically

909
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: publishing this and keeping all of that knowledge alive, and

910
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: there has been some great reports on things like sea

911
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: level rise from the Deep South challenge that is informing

912
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: policies around insurance and managed retreat and all that sort

913
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: of thing. But really it does leave a vacuum now

914
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: in terms of the big research funds have all taken

915
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 1: a haircut in the budget. Where is the real mission

916
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 1: lead stuff We're not magically going to see, you know,

917
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars a year I think appear suddenly

918
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: for this type of research in the next year or

919
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: two until at least we get a picture off the

920
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: science sector and how these sorts of initiatives feed into

921
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: the goals that the government actually has.

922
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

923
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I guess the good news is with Peter

924
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: Gluckman being in charge of that review, it's something that

925
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 2: he is going to kind of want to keep alive

926
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 2: as well. He's not going to turn around and be,

927
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: you know, and be like, no, we need to go

928
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 2: back to the old ways.

929
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: I don't think hopefully not anyway.

930
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 2: Alrighty, that's all for the Business Attack this week. Thanks

931
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 2: to emeritus Professor Sally Davenport for joining us.

932
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: Check out the show notes for links to information on

933
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 1: that inted Iteer report, some info on Mission Lead Science,

934
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,959
Speaker 1: and those stories we discussed at the top of the show.

935
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 2: The Business Attack is on all major podcast platforms as

936
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 2: well as iHeartRadio, where you can stream every episode, leave

937
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 2: us a review, share it with your friends and colleagues.

938
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: Get in touch with feedback, ideas, topics, and guest suggestions.

939
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: Email beIN on beIN at Businessdesk, dot co, dot nzet.

940
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: We'll find both of us on LinkedIn and x.

941
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: We'll be back next Thursday with another dose of the

942
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 2: business of tech

943
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: Till then have a great week.