WEBVTT - Reissue: Marsden Point's potential to be 'world-leading' in sustainable aviation fuels 0:00:19.059 --> 0:00:22.139 Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 0:00:22.379 --> 0:00:25.299 We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 0:00:25.579 --> 0:00:28.699 we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 0:00:28.779 --> 0:00:32.019 twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 0:00:32.138 --> 0:00:34.619 Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 0:00:34.659 --> 0:00:44.259 with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota. I'm 0:00:44.339 --> 0:00:47.659 Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily 0:00:47.778 --> 0:00:55.899 podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Marsden Point operated 0:00:56.019 --> 0:01:01.019 as New Zealand's only oil refinery for nearly sixty years. 0:01:01.539 --> 0:01:04.979 At its peak in the eighties, it employed around seventeen 0:01:05.179 --> 0:01:08.539 hundred people. When it was closed in twenty twenty two, 0:01:09.059 --> 0:01:13.018 nearly two hundred and forty people lost their jobs. Run 0:01:13.059 --> 0:01:17.579 by Channel Infrastructure, the site now operates as New Zealand's 0:01:17.699 --> 0:01:23.338 largest fuels import terminal, storing and distributing forty percent of 0:01:23.378 --> 0:01:27.898 the country's fuel. In recent weeks, a slew of ministers 0:01:27.979 --> 0:01:31.259 have visited the site, with New Zealand First in particular 0:01:31.378 --> 0:01:36.299 floating the idea of introducing our first Special Economic Zone 0:01:36.779 --> 0:01:40.699 to help pump investment into the site and life back 0:01:40.699 --> 0:01:45.899 into the Northland. Economy. Later, Channel Infrastructure CEO Rob Buchanan 0:01:45.979 --> 0:01:50.059 takes us through the future of Marsden Point, but first 0:01:50.099 --> 0:01:54.819 on the front page, Massy University Emeritus Professor of Sustainable 0:01:54.939 --> 0:01:59.419 Energy and Climate Mitigation, Ralph Simms joins us to discuss 0:01:59.619 --> 0:02:08.739 the site's past and potential. First off, Ralph pretend I've 0:02:08.859 --> 0:02:12.259 never heard of Marsden Point before. Can you tell me 0:02:12.499 --> 0:02:13.139 what is it? 0:02:13.699 --> 0:02:13.939 Right? 0:02:14.379 --> 0:02:18.459 Well, Marsden Point is an oil refinery located up in 0:02:18.619 --> 0:02:24.419 Northland and it was established in nineteen sixty four because 0:02:24.459 --> 0:02:30.339 we were bringing petrol and diesel into New Zealand already refined. 0:02:30.819 --> 0:02:33.698 Thought it was cheaper if we brought in crude oil 0:02:33.939 --> 0:02:38.099 and then produced our own fuel products, and that worked well. 0:02:38.219 --> 0:02:43.539 For quite some time we were producing maybe half of 0:02:43.619 --> 0:02:48.579 New Zealand's demands of petrol, diesel and aviation fuel. A 0:02:48.659 --> 0:02:53.699 refinery takes crude oil, which is a very complex chemical 0:02:53.739 --> 0:02:56.858 if you like, and it varies from place to place, 0:02:57.219 --> 0:03:01.339 so a refinery breaks it down into useful products and 0:03:01.379 --> 0:03:05.458 petrol diesel the obvious ones, aviation fuel. Jet fuel is 0:03:05.659 --> 0:03:12.538 called also kerosene, other products chemical use as well, and 0:03:12.578 --> 0:03:15.739 also bitchamin is this stuff left over which of course 0:03:15.779 --> 0:03:18.739 we seal our roads with so that all comes from 0:03:18.779 --> 0:03:20.698 oil refinery. 0:03:20.299 --> 0:03:23.619 And so it hasn't been used as a refinery of 0:03:23.659 --> 0:03:27.579 course since it closed down in twenty twenty two. In 0:03:27.659 --> 0:03:32.819 the mid nineteen eighties, though, the refinery substantially expanded and 0:03:32.899 --> 0:03:38.699 upgraded to allow for increased production. Extra tanks, utility suppliers 0:03:38.739 --> 0:03:42.539 and environmental treatment units were added, along with a one 0:03:42.659 --> 0:03:46.259 hundred and seventy kilometer Marsden Point to Auckland pipeline. 0:03:46.259 --> 0:03:48.019 Now it's safe to say, hey. 0:03:47.899 --> 0:03:50.379 That the eighties were really its boom time. 0:03:50.779 --> 0:03:55.738 That's right, because it was expanded. A hydrocracker was installed, 0:03:55.779 --> 0:03:58.379 which was quite innovative at the time to get. 0:03:58.219 --> 0:04:00.499 More diesel out of a barrel of oil. 0:04:01.099 --> 0:04:03.779 You can only get so much petrol, so much diesel, 0:04:03.859 --> 0:04:07.379 so much of the other products, and the hydrocracker was 0:04:07.419 --> 0:04:10.178 to say, let's get more diesel out because of our 0:04:10.299 --> 0:04:14.579 diesel demand, agricultural demands, trucks, etc. So this was a project. 0:04:14.579 --> 0:04:17.259 It was owned by the New Zealand refining companies. It 0:04:17.299 --> 0:04:20.979 was Shell Oil Company that first thought about it, and 0:04:21.019 --> 0:04:24.299 then they went into partnership with all the other oil 0:04:24.419 --> 0:04:28.939 companies in New Zealand and set up the business and 0:04:28.979 --> 0:04:32.659 so then they thought they'd expand and then mister Muldoon 0:04:32.779 --> 0:04:35.539 came along with his think Big project, so he thought 0:04:35.579 --> 0:04:37.099 that was a good idea. 0:04:37.419 --> 0:04:40.819 Threw money at it, and then it took. 0:04:41.659 --> 0:04:45.099 Five six years nineteen eighty six it finally opened because 0:04:45.139 --> 0:04:47.939 there were strikes and there were delays and there was 0:04:48.019 --> 0:04:52.379 over budget, and then eventually the government did a secret 0:04:52.499 --> 0:04:55.499 deal with the oil companies to buy it to pay 0:04:56.059 --> 0:05:01.379 for all the changes that had occurred, and that meant 0:05:01.459 --> 0:05:05.139 that we were then able to produce about seventy percent 0:05:05.459 --> 0:05:09.179 of our total fuel demand. We were still importing Sundays 0:05:09.299 --> 0:05:12.659 or some of course, in the nineteen seventies there were 0:05:12.699 --> 0:05:16.059 the oil shocks around the world and we were having 0:05:16.139 --> 0:05:19.779 Carliss Days and rationing diesel, et cetera. 0:05:19.619 --> 0:05:22.779 Because there just simply wasn't enough that the. 0:05:22.659 --> 0:05:25.939 Refinery could produce because of the oil supply, but also 0:05:26.019 --> 0:05:29.499 buying imported products, and so that was another reason to 0:05:29.939 --> 0:05:33.659 give it a boost in the eighties. Interestingly, New Zealand 0:05:33.779 --> 0:05:37.419 by that time was exploring and producing oil and gas, 0:05:37.539 --> 0:05:41.859 but our oil was what's called a light sweet crude, 0:05:42.299 --> 0:05:47.819 and it didn't match the refinery processing characteristics. Most of 0:05:47.859 --> 0:05:51.339 our crude oil that we extracted was sent off to 0:05:51.379 --> 0:05:54.859 a refinery in Australia and we were producing. We were 0:05:54.899 --> 0:06:00.379 importing this medium sour crude from other parts of the world, 0:06:00.459 --> 0:06:04.099 Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates and wherever, and so 0:06:04.899 --> 0:06:08.219 that was unfortunate really because we were still relying on 0:06:08.339 --> 0:06:13.259 imported product and a small percentage, very small percentage of 0:06:13.259 --> 0:06:16.579 our our own crude oil would be blended in with 0:06:16.659 --> 0:06:19.899 the imported stuff, but not enough to make self sufficient. 0:06:22.779 --> 0:06:26.179 The right, honorable with supedis that from the person who 0:06:26.619 --> 0:06:29.979 agreed secretly to close down one of the three big 0:06:29.979 --> 0:06:33.459 industries in this country, namely Mars and Points. Never told 0:06:33.499 --> 0:06:36.419 the workers, never told the unions, never told anybody up north. 0:06:36.699 --> 0:06:41.339 No coverted did that And she laughs this critical componatory, 0:06:41.779 --> 0:06:44.299 she laughs about it. That's accused of me going secretly 0:06:44.339 --> 0:06:47.339 to the Prime minister. No, all twenty cabinet ministers were 0:06:47.339 --> 0:06:49.779 required to write to the Prime minister with their ideas. 0:06:50.139 --> 0:06:52.819 That's what I did. So don't believe the media crap 0:06:52.859 --> 0:06:55.979 and hype that somehow we did something special and isn't 0:06:55.979 --> 0:06:59.099 it appauling their debut. Prime Minister has been caught talking 0:06:59.099 --> 0:07:05.139 to the Prime Minister. Only labor could think. 0:07:04.979 --> 0:07:10.659 There's something wrong. Looking back, do you think that there 0:07:10.659 --> 0:07:14.939 were any missed opportunities to integrate I guess more sustainable 0:07:15.019 --> 0:07:19.059 practices into Marsden Points refining activities. 0:07:19.339 --> 0:07:22.539 Yes, well, there was a lot of debated discussion about 0:07:22.579 --> 0:07:28.299 exactly what production it should achieve from an economic sustainability 0:07:28.339 --> 0:07:30.979 point of view. If we'd have gone to one hundred 0:07:31.019 --> 0:07:36.459 percent refining, and if anything had gone wrong, then that 0:07:36.539 --> 0:07:37.619 would have been a risk. 0:07:39.099 --> 0:07:41.859 The economic balance, as. 0:07:41.739 --> 0:07:45.259 I understand it, was that we would produce two thirds 0:07:45.379 --> 0:07:47.579 or so of our own fuels but still have some 0:07:47.779 --> 0:07:52.259 reliance on imported fuels, which gives some flexibility reduces the risk. 0:07:52.819 --> 0:07:57.699 I guess that was the main reason for not going 0:07:57.739 --> 0:08:01.899 to a full large refinery, But of course that was 0:08:02.019 --> 0:08:05.259 one of the reasons why it did close down in 0:08:05.379 --> 0:08:10.099 twenty twenty two, because it's a relatively small refinery on 0:08:10.139 --> 0:08:15.299 a global basis and the cost of oil shipping, it's 0:08:15.339 --> 0:08:19.059 a long way to come, and the value of the 0:08:19.099 --> 0:08:23.299 products was such that it was actually thought cheaper to 0:08:23.419 --> 0:08:29.979 import refined products from Singapore and other Asian countries rather 0:08:30.059 --> 0:08:33.419 than carry on with refining here. And of course by 0:08:33.458 --> 0:08:37.338 that time it was. Some of it was forty to 0:08:37.419 --> 0:08:43.819 fifty years old, and these chemical engineering production processes, equipment 0:08:43.859 --> 0:08:49.779 doesn't last forever, so there was quite a maintenance operation 0:08:49.939 --> 0:08:54.099 going on. So in the end, from an economic sustainability 0:08:54.259 --> 0:08:58.338 point of view, they decided maybe we would shut it 0:08:58.379 --> 0:09:06.859 down and import refined products. And that's another issue because 0:09:07.419 --> 0:09:11.339 it was decided not to mothball the plant, which means 0:09:11.458 --> 0:09:14.458 to sort of shut it down but put grease on 0:09:14.539 --> 0:09:17.898 it and paint it and protect it so that it 0:09:17.978 --> 0:09:21.499 could we used. It was just decommissioned. It was just 0:09:21.578 --> 0:09:24.259 shut down and that was it. So parts of it 0:09:24.299 --> 0:09:27.098 have gone rusty and parts of it have been sold off, 0:09:27.139 --> 0:09:30.219 and there's more other bits that are possibly going to 0:09:30.259 --> 0:09:33.739 be sold from what I understand the government, I think 0:09:33.779 --> 0:09:40.059 Minister Shane Jones has been thinking of re commissioning the refinery, 0:09:40.618 --> 0:09:44.499 but it would be very difficult and very expensive to do, 0:09:44.779 --> 0:09:48.458 so there has been a report to assess whether that's 0:09:48.738 --> 0:09:53.258 feasible or not. The idea of being that in this 0:09:53.379 --> 0:09:57.059 day and age, with all the geopolitical unrest and such like, 0:09:57.858 --> 0:10:02.378 we would have more security if we produced more of 0:10:02.419 --> 0:10:05.419 our own fuels, but that's. 0:10:06.299 --> 0:10:09.099 Unlikely to happen. I think. 0:10:09.179 --> 0:10:11.779 I think to the cost it would be billions of 0:10:11.779 --> 0:10:14.378 dollars to renovate it. 0:10:14.578 --> 0:10:18.219 In terms of the chat about making the area or 0:10:18.259 --> 0:10:22.059 Marsden Point a special economic zone, how does that sit 0:10:22.098 --> 0:10:22.939 with you, Ralph? 0:10:23.458 --> 0:10:26.459 Yeah, well, again it's the company that's come up with 0:10:26.498 --> 0:10:30.458 this concept and Minister Shane Jones has said, oh, this 0:10:30.618 --> 0:10:33.179 could be a good idea, so he's got involved there 0:10:33.179 --> 0:10:36.978 a bit. To what degree I don't know, but basically 0:10:38.019 --> 0:10:40.819 it's saying, well, we've got all these resources, all these facilities, 0:10:40.819 --> 0:10:41.299 how can. 0:10:41.179 --> 0:10:42.419 We best utilize them? 0:10:42.738 --> 0:10:46.779 And so extra storage is one they've talked about producing 0:10:46.858 --> 0:10:52.378 green hydrogen, which is different hydrogen that comes from methane 0:10:52.379 --> 0:10:57.059 from natural gas releases emissions into the atmosphere carbon dioxide 0:10:57.098 --> 0:11:00.419 as part of producing hydrogen, whereas green hydrogen, if you've 0:11:00.419 --> 0:11:05.659 got renewable electricity to electoralize the water and produce the hydrogen, 0:11:06.098 --> 0:11:09.659 then there's no carbon emissions coming from that they've got. 0:11:09.858 --> 0:11:14.378 There's a possibility of doing that. Hydrogen as a fuel 0:11:14.819 --> 0:11:19.939 is debatable in many ways at the moment, whether it 0:11:19.978 --> 0:11:21.939 be for cars or trucks or planes. 0:11:22.939 --> 0:11:24.779 Technically possible, but is it. 0:11:25.458 --> 0:11:29.619 Energy efficient to use all that electricity to produce hydrogen, 0:11:29.699 --> 0:11:32.858 store the hydrogen to turn the hydrogen back into electricity, 0:11:33.299 --> 0:11:33.859 or maybe. 0:11:33.738 --> 0:11:36.059 Use electricity directly for a car. 0:11:36.179 --> 0:11:39.779 Obviously idiots makes more sense than for an aeroplane, but 0:11:39.858 --> 0:11:43.258 green hydrogen is a possible product. 0:11:43.019 --> 0:11:43.819 That they could use. 0:11:44.858 --> 0:11:50.139 They could also produce biofuels their liquid fuels that could 0:11:50.218 --> 0:11:55.178 replace spetrol and diesel. The IATA, the International Air Transport 0:11:55.338 --> 0:12:00.499 Association of All Airlines Air New Zealand being a strong member, 0:12:01.059 --> 0:12:05.618 has from some years looked at sustainable aviation fuels and 0:12:05.699 --> 0:12:08.659 they've been analyzing this to a great degree. United Era 0:12:08.699 --> 0:12:10.699 of Emirates I've been involved with a little bit and 0:12:10.738 --> 0:12:14.978 they've been very strongly supporting this and advocating for the concept, 0:12:15.059 --> 0:12:18.738 even though they produce oil themselves. The IATA have got 0:12:18.779 --> 0:12:22.419 no different technologies that they can that they've approved in 0:12:22.498 --> 0:12:27.499 order to make these jet pule and one. 0:12:27.379 --> 0:12:31.338 Of them is through using green hydrogen. Another one, which. 0:12:32.858 --> 0:12:37.699 Channel Infrastructure is now looking at in association with Air 0:12:37.779 --> 0:12:42.659 New Zealand and SCION, which was Forest Research Institute, is 0:12:42.699 --> 0:12:47.019 to convert woody biomass waste from the forest. So you 0:12:47.098 --> 0:12:49.699 take out the logs and then you're left with all 0:12:49.738 --> 0:12:53.539 the slash which is quite controversial at the moment and 0:12:53.299 --> 0:12:57.138 in Sweden and the Austrian whatever. And I've been advocating 0:12:57.179 --> 0:12:59.299 here for many years too. We should be using that 0:12:59.738 --> 0:13:01.179 to chip it up and turn. 0:13:01.019 --> 0:13:03.978 It into heat and power. We can turn it into. 0:13:03.819 --> 0:13:07.579 Electricity and it's very viable and it makes good sense 0:13:08.019 --> 0:13:09.059 and it's low carbon. 0:13:09.379 --> 0:13:12.379 But it's an expensive though, Ralph is that where the 0:13:12.458 --> 0:13:14.779 special Economic Zone can come in we can get some 0:13:14.819 --> 0:13:19.299 overseas investors in to invest in things like that. 0:13:19.019 --> 0:13:20.379 That's exactly right. 0:13:20.458 --> 0:13:23.179 I mean, it's been done for heat and power for 0:13:23.259 --> 0:13:25.419 decades in many countries. 0:13:24.978 --> 0:13:26.098 So it's not expensive. 0:13:26.259 --> 0:13:30.019 If you've got the system in place, it can be competitive. 0:13:30.259 --> 0:13:33.738 But if you've got going to sustainable aviation fuels, it's 0:13:33.779 --> 0:13:37.619 a bigger process. It's a refining process, if you like, 0:13:37.659 --> 0:13:40.819 of the woody biomass into liquid biofuels. And that's where 0:13:40.858 --> 0:13:46.338 the Economic zone could attract these investors for sure, which 0:13:46.379 --> 0:13:48.939 of course is what government's got in mind as being 0:13:49.858 --> 0:13:53.858 a good incentive to do so. And so the process 0:13:53.899 --> 0:13:56.899 there or lands That Tech is a company which is involved, 0:13:56.939 --> 0:14:01.139 which was originated in New Zealand some twenty years or 0:14:01.139 --> 0:14:04.618 more ago from a PhD study which was looking at 0:14:04.699 --> 0:14:08.458 bacteria to take emissions from steel mills and turn them 0:14:08.458 --> 0:14:11.218 into ethanol, which is a liquid fuel. 0:14:11.379 --> 0:14:13.179 You can run petrol cars on ethanol. 0:14:13.779 --> 0:14:18.059 And that developed into a company and then that went international. 0:14:18.098 --> 0:14:20.019 They've still got a re search office in Auckland. 0:14:20.099 --> 0:14:24.219 It was New Zealand innovation at its best and they 0:14:24.459 --> 0:14:28.779 are now looking at jet fuels as a subsidiary company 0:14:28.819 --> 0:14:34.059 of Lanthatch and Scion's been looking at producing ethanol from 0:14:34.459 --> 0:14:38.459 woody biomass for decades and it's not easy. I mean, 0:14:39.339 --> 0:14:44.219 when I was producing biodiesel in nineteen seventies, Forest Research 0:14:44.299 --> 0:14:49.579 Institute was looking at ethanol from woodchips and after twenty 0:14:49.699 --> 0:14:52.259 or thirty years they sort of gave up. So it 0:14:52.379 --> 0:14:54.619 is a challenge, but there's more development going on now. 0:14:54.699 --> 0:15:00.859 So this is where this consortium is thinking that ideally 0:15:00.939 --> 0:15:06.859 Marsden Point could be a world leading center for producing 0:15:06.939 --> 0:15:11.539 sustainable aviation fuels. What the volume is that they can 0:15:11.619 --> 0:15:16.139 produce is probably enough for New Zealand, but on a 0:15:16.179 --> 0:15:21.659 global capacity it's a real ch challenge through substitute avgas 0:15:21.779 --> 0:15:27.179 aviation fuel for sustainable aviation fuels, but it's technically possible 0:15:27.179 --> 0:15:30.579 to do and even you can term municipal solid waste 0:15:30.619 --> 0:15:32.659 instead of going into a landfill, you can turn that 0:15:32.779 --> 0:15:35.419 into sustainable. 0:15:34.819 --> 0:15:35.619 Fuels as well. 0:15:35.899 --> 0:15:40.179 So there's great hope, great potential there, but there is 0:15:40.219 --> 0:15:45.179 a challenge a on the chemistry beyond the costs see 0:15:45.459 --> 0:15:48.659 on having a regular supply. Where would all the wood 0:15:48.739 --> 0:15:51.539 chips come from? How do they get to the refinery? 0:15:51.739 --> 0:15:54.579 Coastal shipping might be the answer to that, and rail 0:15:54.699 --> 0:15:58.459 as well that they've got to be delivered there in 0:15:58.579 --> 0:15:59.459 large volumes. 0:15:59.859 --> 0:16:01.379 But it's certainly worth looking at. 0:16:01.899 --> 0:16:13.059 Thanks for joining us, Rolph. The privately owned Marsden Point 0:16:13.259 --> 0:16:17.219 was New Zealand's only fuel refinery until it was decommissioned 0:16:17.459 --> 0:16:21.259 in twenty twenty two to become an import only fuel 0:16:21.379 --> 0:16:26.379 terminal under the name Channel Infrastructure. CEO Rob Buchanan is 0:16:26.419 --> 0:16:33.379 with us now to take us through what the future holds. Rob, 0:16:33.539 --> 0:16:37.779 how much fuel flows through Marsden Point at the moment 0:16:37.899 --> 0:16:38.819 and where does it all go? 0:16:39.339 --> 0:16:44.299 Yeah, so it's around three billion or over three billion 0:16:44.379 --> 0:16:47.459 liters a year of fuel that goes through the Marsten 0:16:47.539 --> 0:16:51.619 Point import terminal system. And just to give you a 0:16:51.619 --> 0:16:57.739 thumbnail sketch of how that works, our customer's earth ships 0:16:57.779 --> 0:17:02.539 at Marsden Point where their product is stored either petrol, 0:17:02.579 --> 0:17:06.178 diesel and jet and a significant number of tanks that 0:17:06.219 --> 0:17:09.699 we've got back three hundred million liters of storage on site. 0:17:09.979 --> 0:17:14.059 Most product is ship down the pipeline to Auckland where 0:17:14.099 --> 0:17:18.059 it is then distributed either to the Auckland and Waycana 0:17:18.059 --> 0:17:20.699 region or in the as a jet direct talk from 0:17:20.739 --> 0:17:24.259 airport and a small amounts are taken off at our 0:17:24.379 --> 0:17:28.099 site to a truckloading facility for distribution into Northland. 0:17:28.539 --> 0:17:33.059 How might Marsden Point adapt towards I suppose a renewable 0:17:33.259 --> 0:17:35.659 energy or sustainability in the future. 0:17:36.259 --> 0:17:38.819 Great question. So there's a couple of things there. I 0:17:38.859 --> 0:17:43.059 think the first for us is, you know, we we 0:17:43.139 --> 0:17:47.339 think that the future for decarbonization of aviation is sustainable 0:17:47.339 --> 0:17:51.499 aviation fuel, which is dropping, which is to say that 0:17:51.619 --> 0:17:55.779 it can flow through our infrastructure today. So as their 0:17:55.859 --> 0:18:02.019 industry transitions from fossil jets to sustainable aviation fuel over 0:18:02.019 --> 0:18:05.179 the next twenty thirty years, you know that product can 0:18:05.179 --> 0:18:08.099 come straight through the Marton Point of Port terminal system 0:18:08.379 --> 0:18:12.059 like it can today. One of the unique features of 0:18:12.099 --> 0:18:15.179 our location and a mast point, and actually it's a 0:18:15.219 --> 0:18:18.459 function in our history is we've got a very large 0:18:18.579 --> 0:18:23.139 land which is consented for at least the next thirty 0:18:23.139 --> 0:18:28.659 five years anyway for fuels manufacture. And so one of 0:18:28.699 --> 0:18:33.539 the significant opportunities that we're exploring is renewable fuels manufacture 0:18:33.579 --> 0:18:34.379 on our site. 0:18:34.179 --> 0:18:37.339 As well and all the infrastructures there for that. Or 0:18:37.339 --> 0:18:41.659 do you need significant investment from government or say elsewhere 0:18:41.899 --> 0:18:43.619 under a special economic zone. 0:18:43.659 --> 0:18:46.299 Say, well, to be clear, we're not looking for investment 0:18:46.339 --> 0:18:50.659 from government, so just to put that one to be head. 0:18:50.739 --> 0:18:55.019 But otherwise the answer is yes to both. So yes, 0:18:55.059 --> 0:18:58.139 there is a significant amount of infrastructure there by virtue 0:18:58.539 --> 0:19:05.139 of a range of decommissioned refinery assets and refined product 0:19:05.259 --> 0:19:08.419 tanks which are available for fuel storage and then the 0:19:08.459 --> 0:19:12.459 pipeline which can ship that product to Auckland or indeed 0:19:12.459 --> 0:19:14.699 the Gend where it can be put into a boat 0:19:15.019 --> 0:19:19.819 and distributed elsewhere. But also there is a significant amount 0:19:19.819 --> 0:19:23.939 of investment that would be required by our partners ultimately 0:19:25.139 --> 0:19:28.979 to bring renewable fuels manufacture to master Point. So one 0:19:29.019 --> 0:19:32.219 of the projects that we're working on with a consortium 0:19:32.259 --> 0:19:36.419 of international investors is indeed repurposing some of the old 0:19:36.459 --> 0:19:39.019 refinery assets for biofuels production. 0:19:38.779 --> 0:19:41.619 And is eart what's the goal with that? 0:19:41.699 --> 0:19:44.699 So when we talk about biofuels, what would that then 0:19:44.739 --> 0:19:45.619 be used for? 0:19:46.219 --> 0:19:49.819 Yeah, so in relation to that particular project, in particular, 0:19:51.379 --> 0:19:56.659 the main areas of focus renewable diesel or an alternative 0:19:56.699 --> 0:20:01.138 to diesel, and obviously sustainable aviation fuel, And just to 0:20:01.179 --> 0:20:05.219 speak to both of those, clearly there is a pathway 0:20:05.299 --> 0:20:11.539 for decarbonization of light transport and EVS and adoption will 0:20:11.539 --> 0:20:14.739 go up and down over time, but ultimately you know 0:20:14.819 --> 0:20:19.259 that pathway is there. I think that the pathway for 0:20:19.339 --> 0:20:23.379 heavy transport. And if you think about tractors on farms 0:20:24.419 --> 0:20:29.619 getting milk from remote locations in New Zealand to manufacturing sites, 0:20:30.259 --> 0:20:32.979 getting our products to export markets and getting them in 0:20:33.019 --> 0:20:38.339 a boat and shipping them overseas, that's where renewable diesel 0:20:38.499 --> 0:20:41.619 is an opportunity to decarbonize that particular part of the 0:20:41.619 --> 0:20:45.379 supply chain. The opportunity and aviation, as I spoke to before, 0:20:45.619 --> 0:20:47.699 is sustainable aviation fuel. 0:20:47.979 --> 0:20:51.579 In terms of sustainable aviation fuel, though, does the whole 0:20:51.619 --> 0:20:54.419 world have to get on board for it to work? 0:20:54.779 --> 0:20:59.019 Well, that's actually great question, and so you know that 0:20:59.219 --> 0:21:02.658 the most important point about sustainable aviation fuel is that 0:21:02.739 --> 0:21:06.979 it's dropping. So where it wouldn't work is if we 0:21:07.419 --> 0:21:11.819 couldn't use that fuel an existing jet turbine technology today. 0:21:11.979 --> 0:21:14.979 So you know the most important thing is that it's dropping. 0:21:15.459 --> 0:21:18.059 You can blend it with jet today and it can 0:21:18.099 --> 0:21:21.419 go straight into the aircraft that any Zealand for example, 0:21:21.539 --> 0:21:25.299 is fly around New Zealand or overseas. And so that 0:21:25.979 --> 0:21:30.299 means that we don't have to wait for technology changes 0:21:31.179 --> 0:21:34.739 at aircraft level, which I think, let's space it would 0:21:34.859 --> 0:21:38.379 take decades. We can actually get into this piece of 0:21:38.459 --> 0:21:44.179 work now, and various countries are taking different or making 0:21:44.179 --> 0:21:49.379 that adoption at different speeds. Certainly Europe is going faster 0:21:49.659 --> 0:21:53.019 than many other places. But actually some of our major 0:21:53.059 --> 0:21:58.259 trading partners in Asia have sustainable aviation fuel targets as well, 0:21:58.459 --> 0:22:00.139 like Japan and Singapore. 0:22:00.259 --> 0:22:02.939 Why isn't it happening you know, tomorrow then? Or does 0:22:02.979 --> 0:22:05.299 it cost a lot of money? I know that the 0:22:05.379 --> 0:22:09.779 recommissioning project was costed out at about four point nine 0:22:09.819 --> 0:22:12.819 billion to seven point three billion. That was if we 0:22:13.019 --> 0:22:17.339 made Marsden Point an oil refinery against say, obviously that's 0:22:17.379 --> 0:22:19.699 a pipe dream, and that's probably are you are you 0:22:19.739 --> 0:22:22.259 confident to say that that's actually never going to happen. 0:22:22.539 --> 0:22:26.019 Yeah, Well, I think the government did a significant piece 0:22:26.019 --> 0:22:29.179 of work on the recommissioning of the refinery and found 0:22:29.179 --> 0:22:33.178 that it was infeasible ultimately, so you know, it was 0:22:33.219 --> 0:22:37.379 permanently decommissioned and our position hasn't changed on that. I 0:22:37.419 --> 0:22:40.899 think on that's the same aviation fuel piece. I probably 0:22:41.339 --> 0:22:44.619 distinguished between the opportunity to manufacture it and New Zealand 0:22:44.659 --> 0:22:47.379 at master point, which we think is a fantastic opportunity, 0:22:47.939 --> 0:22:50.059 and the fact that it can actually be brought into 0:22:50.099 --> 0:22:53.459 New Zealand by a boat today and distribute it through 0:22:53.499 --> 0:22:56.819 our supply chain. But you've landed on one of the 0:22:56.859 --> 0:23:01.699 key issues for adoption. There's nothing cheap about decarbanization. We've 0:23:01.739 --> 0:23:05.659 seen it in the electricity sector in that transition to 0:23:05.739 --> 0:23:10.419 renewal electricity and the impact that that's had on electricity prices, 0:23:11.019 --> 0:23:14.179 and it's the same with us the same aviation fuel. 0:23:14.419 --> 0:23:19.779 It's as that technology gains traction and incredib said scale 0:23:19.939 --> 0:23:22.099 is built around the world in the manufacture of the 0:23:22.139 --> 0:23:25.179 stable aviation fuel. I think the costs can come down, 0:23:25.339 --> 0:23:30.379 but right now it's significantly more expensive than fossil jet today. 0:23:30.699 --> 0:23:34.979 So the impact on is ultimately borne by airlines or 0:23:35.019 --> 0:23:39.539 customers for making that choice around substitution between fossil jets 0:23:39.699 --> 0:23:41.539 and stable aviation field. 0:23:43.859 --> 0:23:50.859 Our investigating the re establishment of marsten Point refinery. Sadly, 0:23:51.579 --> 0:23:56.139 we are left to gather the results of an awful 0:23:56.259 --> 0:24:01.019 decision made over the last two years, and it's driven 0:24:01.299 --> 0:24:05.859 sved by a mixture of wocism, a mixture of naivety, 0:24:06.699 --> 0:24:12.499 and an unwillingness to accept without gas with our fuel, 0:24:13.059 --> 0:24:16.898 the nation will collapse. With New Zealand first in charge 0:24:16.899 --> 0:24:20.739 of such an initiative, our resilience will prosper. 0:24:22.979 --> 0:24:26.979 What's the future look like for Marsden Point, say in 0:24:27.019 --> 0:24:30.418 the next ten years and then twenty years and so forth. 0:24:31.019 --> 0:24:33.019 Yeah, Well, we put out I think, as you know, 0:24:33.179 --> 0:24:37.739 the marsten Point Energy Precinct, which is our vision the 0:24:37.779 --> 0:24:42.579 future of that site, and i'd summarize to you in 0:24:42.779 --> 0:24:44.979 a couple of ways. You know, we see it as 0:24:45.459 --> 0:24:47.979 over the next ten to fifteen years as a massive 0:24:48.019 --> 0:24:52.139 opportunity for energy security for New Zealand. And by that 0:24:52.299 --> 0:24:55.299 I mean we've got the ability to store more fuel, 0:24:55.539 --> 0:25:00.139 We've got the ability to manufacture biofuels at Marsten point 0:25:00.619 --> 0:25:04.419 noting that the feedstock for biofuels is domestic, so we 0:25:04.499 --> 0:25:11.059 aren't subject to the geopolitical risks that come with international shipping. 0:25:11.699 --> 0:25:15.619 And we are also working on some energy firming opportunities 0:25:15.659 --> 0:25:19.138 as well, like peak electricity peaking and the like, and 0:25:19.219 --> 0:25:22.139 so we think it's a real opportunity for an energy 0:25:22.179 --> 0:25:25.139 security play in New for New Zealand in a world 0:25:25.179 --> 0:25:29.699 which is quickly becoming more geopolitically contested. And we think 0:25:29.699 --> 0:25:33.819 it's a massive opportunity for Northland if the Energy Precinct 0:25:33.899 --> 0:25:35.779 is built out as to how we think it could 0:25:35.779 --> 0:25:38.939 be over the next ten to fifteen twenty years. It's 0:25:38.979 --> 0:25:43.099 twenty thousand construction jobs, it's twelve hundred jobs on an 0:25:43.139 --> 0:25:46.259 ongoing basis, it's a quarter of a billion dollars contribution 0:25:46.379 --> 0:25:51.019 to New Zealander GYP. It's a massive opportunity for New 0:25:51.099 --> 0:25:54.419 ZEALANDIC and if you think about some of the industrialization 0:25:54.579 --> 0:25:59.259 that we're seeing around us with manufacturing closing high energy prices, 0:26:00.499 --> 0:26:03.259 we've got the opportunity and to lean into solving a 0:26:03.259 --> 0:26:05.579 couple of those things with the Energy Precinct. 0:26:05.499 --> 0:26:08.459 And in order for all of those things to happen seamlessly. 0:26:08.699 --> 0:26:12.459 Do we need a special Economic zone, Well, I think the. 0:26:12.939 --> 0:26:19.579 SEZ, which the Associate Minister for Energy announced back in 0:26:19.619 --> 0:26:24.859 February as something that government was considering, is I think 0:26:24.939 --> 0:26:28.539 something that would speed up the development of the energy precinct. 0:26:29.339 --> 0:26:34.859 So when we talk to international investors and international capital providers, 0:26:35.699 --> 0:26:38.619 they've got the choice to put their capital and their 0:26:38.699 --> 0:26:42.619