1 00:00:19,059 --> 00:00:22,139 Speaker 1: Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 2 00:00:22,379 --> 00:00:25,299 Speaker 1: We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 3 00:00:25,579 --> 00:00:28,699 Speaker 1: we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 4 00:00:28,779 --> 00:00:32,019 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 5 00:00:32,138 --> 00:00:34,619 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 6 00:00:34,659 --> 00:00:44,259 Speaker 1: with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota. I'm 7 00:00:44,339 --> 00:00:47,659 Speaker 1: Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily 8 00:00:47,778 --> 00:00:55,899 Speaker 1: podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Marsden Point operated 9 00:00:56,019 --> 00:01:01,019 Speaker 1: as New Zealand's only oil refinery for nearly sixty years. 10 00:01:01,539 --> 00:01:04,979 Speaker 1: At its peak in the eighties, it employed around seventeen 11 00:01:05,179 --> 00:01:08,539 Speaker 1: hundred people. When it was closed in twenty twenty two, 12 00:01:09,059 --> 00:01:13,018 Speaker 1: nearly two hundred and forty people lost their jobs. Run 13 00:01:13,059 --> 00:01:17,579 Speaker 1: by Channel Infrastructure, the site now operates as New Zealand's 14 00:01:17,699 --> 00:01:23,338 Speaker 1: largest fuels import terminal, storing and distributing forty percent of 15 00:01:23,378 --> 00:01:27,898 Speaker 1: the country's fuel. In recent weeks, a slew of ministers 16 00:01:27,979 --> 00:01:31,259 Speaker 1: have visited the site, with New Zealand First in particular 17 00:01:31,378 --> 00:01:36,299 Speaker 1: floating the idea of introducing our first Special Economic Zone 18 00:01:36,779 --> 00:01:40,699 Speaker 1: to help pump investment into the site and life back 19 00:01:40,699 --> 00:01:45,899 Speaker 1: into the Northland. Economy. Later, Channel Infrastructure CEO Rob Buchanan 20 00:01:45,979 --> 00:01:50,059 Speaker 1: takes us through the future of Marsden Point, but first 21 00:01:50,099 --> 00:01:54,819 Speaker 1: on the front page, Massy University Emeritus Professor of Sustainable 22 00:01:54,939 --> 00:01:59,419 Speaker 1: Energy and Climate Mitigation, Ralph Simms joins us to discuss 23 00:01:59,619 --> 00:02:08,739 Speaker 1: the site's past and potential. First off, Ralph pretend I've 24 00:02:08,859 --> 00:02:12,259 Speaker 1: never heard of Marsden Point before. Can you tell me 25 00:02:12,499 --> 00:02:13,139 Speaker 1: what is it? 26 00:02:13,699 --> 00:02:13,939 Speaker 2: Right? 27 00:02:14,379 --> 00:02:18,459 Speaker 3: Well, Marsden Point is an oil refinery located up in 28 00:02:18,619 --> 00:02:24,419 Speaker 3: Northland and it was established in nineteen sixty four because 29 00:02:24,459 --> 00:02:30,339 Speaker 3: we were bringing petrol and diesel into New Zealand already refined. 30 00:02:30,819 --> 00:02:33,698 Speaker 3: Thought it was cheaper if we brought in crude oil 31 00:02:33,939 --> 00:02:38,099 Speaker 3: and then produced our own fuel products, and that worked well. 32 00:02:38,219 --> 00:02:43,539 Speaker 3: For quite some time we were producing maybe half of 33 00:02:43,619 --> 00:02:48,579 Speaker 3: New Zealand's demands of petrol, diesel and aviation fuel. A 34 00:02:48,659 --> 00:02:53,699 Speaker 3: refinery takes crude oil, which is a very complex chemical 35 00:02:53,739 --> 00:02:56,858 Speaker 3: if you like, and it varies from place to place, 36 00:02:57,219 --> 00:03:01,339 Speaker 3: so a refinery breaks it down into useful products and 37 00:03:01,379 --> 00:03:05,458 Speaker 3: petrol diesel the obvious ones, aviation fuel. Jet fuel is 38 00:03:05,659 --> 00:03:12,538 Speaker 3: called also kerosene, other products chemical use as well, and 39 00:03:12,578 --> 00:03:15,739 Speaker 3: also bitchamin is this stuff left over which of course 40 00:03:15,779 --> 00:03:18,739 Speaker 3: we seal our roads with so that all comes from 41 00:03:18,779 --> 00:03:20,698 Speaker 3: oil refinery. 42 00:03:20,299 --> 00:03:23,619 Speaker 1: And so it hasn't been used as a refinery of 43 00:03:23,659 --> 00:03:27,579 Speaker 1: course since it closed down in twenty twenty two. In 44 00:03:27,659 --> 00:03:32,819 Speaker 1: the mid nineteen eighties, though, the refinery substantially expanded and 45 00:03:32,899 --> 00:03:38,699 Speaker 1: upgraded to allow for increased production. Extra tanks, utility suppliers 46 00:03:38,739 --> 00:03:42,539 Speaker 1: and environmental treatment units were added, along with a one 47 00:03:42,659 --> 00:03:46,259 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy kilometer Marsden Point to Auckland pipeline. 48 00:03:46,259 --> 00:03:48,019 Speaker 2: Now it's safe to say, hey. 49 00:03:47,899 --> 00:03:50,379 Speaker 1: That the eighties were really its boom time. 50 00:03:50,779 --> 00:03:55,738 Speaker 3: That's right, because it was expanded. A hydrocracker was installed, 51 00:03:55,779 --> 00:03:58,379 Speaker 3: which was quite innovative at the time to get. 52 00:03:58,219 --> 00:04:00,499 Speaker 2: More diesel out of a barrel of oil. 53 00:04:01,099 --> 00:04:03,779 Speaker 3: You can only get so much petrol, so much diesel, 54 00:04:03,859 --> 00:04:07,379 Speaker 3: so much of the other products, and the hydrocracker was 55 00:04:07,419 --> 00:04:10,178 Speaker 3: to say, let's get more diesel out because of our 56 00:04:10,299 --> 00:04:14,579 Speaker 3: diesel demand, agricultural demands, trucks, etc. So this was a project. 57 00:04:14,579 --> 00:04:17,259 Speaker 3: It was owned by the New Zealand refining companies. It 58 00:04:17,299 --> 00:04:20,979 Speaker 3: was Shell Oil Company that first thought about it, and 59 00:04:21,019 --> 00:04:24,299 Speaker 3: then they went into partnership with all the other oil 60 00:04:24,419 --> 00:04:28,939 Speaker 3: companies in New Zealand and set up the business and 61 00:04:28,979 --> 00:04:32,659 Speaker 3: so then they thought they'd expand and then mister Muldoon 62 00:04:32,779 --> 00:04:35,539 Speaker 3: came along with his think Big project, so he thought 63 00:04:35,579 --> 00:04:37,099 Speaker 3: that was a good idea. 64 00:04:37,419 --> 00:04:40,819 Speaker 2: Threw money at it, and then it took. 65 00:04:41,659 --> 00:04:45,099 Speaker 3: Five six years nineteen eighty six it finally opened because 66 00:04:45,139 --> 00:04:47,939 Speaker 3: there were strikes and there were delays and there was 67 00:04:48,019 --> 00:04:52,379 Speaker 3: over budget, and then eventually the government did a secret 68 00:04:52,499 --> 00:04:55,499 Speaker 3: deal with the oil companies to buy it to pay 69 00:04:56,059 --> 00:05:01,379 Speaker 3: for all the changes that had occurred, and that meant 70 00:05:01,459 --> 00:05:05,139 Speaker 3: that we were then able to produce about seventy percent 71 00:05:05,459 --> 00:05:09,179 Speaker 3: of our total fuel demand. We were still importing Sundays 72 00:05:09,299 --> 00:05:12,659 Speaker 3: or some of course, in the nineteen seventies there were 73 00:05:12,699 --> 00:05:16,059 Speaker 3: the oil shocks around the world and we were having 74 00:05:16,139 --> 00:05:19,779 Speaker 3: Carliss Days and rationing diesel, et cetera. 75 00:05:19,619 --> 00:05:22,779 Speaker 2: Because there just simply wasn't enough that the. 76 00:05:22,659 --> 00:05:25,939 Speaker 3: Refinery could produce because of the oil supply, but also 77 00:05:26,019 --> 00:05:29,499 Speaker 3: buying imported products, and so that was another reason to 78 00:05:29,939 --> 00:05:33,659 Speaker 3: give it a boost in the eighties. Interestingly, New Zealand 79 00:05:33,779 --> 00:05:37,419 Speaker 3: by that time was exploring and producing oil and gas, 80 00:05:37,539 --> 00:05:41,859 Speaker 3: but our oil was what's called a light sweet crude, 81 00:05:42,299 --> 00:05:47,819 Speaker 3: and it didn't match the refinery processing characteristics. Most of 82 00:05:47,859 --> 00:05:51,339 Speaker 3: our crude oil that we extracted was sent off to 83 00:05:51,379 --> 00:05:54,859 Speaker 3: a refinery in Australia and we were producing. We were 84 00:05:54,899 --> 00:06:00,379 Speaker 3: importing this medium sour crude from other parts of the world, 85 00:06:00,459 --> 00:06:04,099 Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates and wherever, and so 86 00:06:04,899 --> 00:06:08,219 Speaker 3: that was unfortunate really because we were still relying on 87 00:06:08,339 --> 00:06:13,259 Speaker 3: imported product and a small percentage, very small percentage of 88 00:06:13,259 --> 00:06:16,579 Speaker 3: our our own crude oil would be blended in with 89 00:06:16,659 --> 00:06:19,899 Speaker 3: the imported stuff, but not enough to make self sufficient. 90 00:06:22,779 --> 00:06:26,179 Speaker 4: The right, honorable with supedis that from the person who 91 00:06:26,619 --> 00:06:29,979 Speaker 4: agreed secretly to close down one of the three big 92 00:06:29,979 --> 00:06:33,459 Speaker 4: industries in this country, namely Mars and Points. Never told 93 00:06:33,499 --> 00:06:36,419 Speaker 4: the workers, never told the unions, never told anybody up north. 94 00:06:36,699 --> 00:06:41,339 Speaker 4: No coverted did that And she laughs this critical componatory, 95 00:06:41,779 --> 00:06:44,299 Speaker 4: she laughs about it. That's accused of me going secretly 96 00:06:44,339 --> 00:06:47,339 Speaker 4: to the Prime minister. No, all twenty cabinet ministers were 97 00:06:47,339 --> 00:06:49,779 Speaker 4: required to write to the Prime minister with their ideas. 98 00:06:50,139 --> 00:06:52,819 Speaker 4: That's what I did. So don't believe the media crap 99 00:06:52,859 --> 00:06:55,979 Speaker 4: and hype that somehow we did something special and isn't 100 00:06:55,979 --> 00:06:59,099 Speaker 4: it appauling their debut. Prime Minister has been caught talking 101 00:06:59,099 --> 00:07:05,139 Speaker 4: to the Prime Minister. Only labor could think. 102 00:07:04,979 --> 00:07:10,659 Speaker 1: There's something wrong. Looking back, do you think that there 103 00:07:10,659 --> 00:07:14,939 Speaker 1: were any missed opportunities to integrate I guess more sustainable 104 00:07:15,019 --> 00:07:19,059 Speaker 1: practices into Marsden Points refining activities. 105 00:07:19,339 --> 00:07:22,539 Speaker 3: Yes, well, there was a lot of debated discussion about 106 00:07:22,579 --> 00:07:28,299 Speaker 3: exactly what production it should achieve from an economic sustainability 107 00:07:28,339 --> 00:07:30,979 Speaker 3: point of view. If we'd have gone to one hundred 108 00:07:31,019 --> 00:07:36,459 Speaker 3: percent refining, and if anything had gone wrong, then that 109 00:07:36,539 --> 00:07:37,619 Speaker 3: would have been a risk. 110 00:07:39,099 --> 00:07:41,859 Speaker 2: The economic balance, as. 111 00:07:41,739 --> 00:07:45,259 Speaker 3: I understand it, was that we would produce two thirds 112 00:07:45,379 --> 00:07:47,579 Speaker 3: or so of our own fuels but still have some 113 00:07:47,779 --> 00:07:52,259 Speaker 3: reliance on imported fuels, which gives some flexibility reduces the risk. 114 00:07:52,819 --> 00:07:57,699 Speaker 3: I guess that was the main reason for not going 115 00:07:57,739 --> 00:08:01,899 Speaker 3: to a full large refinery, But of course that was 116 00:08:02,019 --> 00:08:05,259 Speaker 3: one of the reasons why it did close down in 117 00:08:05,379 --> 00:08:10,099 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, because it's a relatively small refinery on 118 00:08:10,139 --> 00:08:15,299 Speaker 3: a global basis and the cost of oil shipping, it's 119 00:08:15,339 --> 00:08:19,059 Speaker 3: a long way to come, and the value of the 120 00:08:19,099 --> 00:08:23,299 Speaker 3: products was such that it was actually thought cheaper to 121 00:08:23,419 --> 00:08:29,979 Speaker 3: import refined products from Singapore and other Asian countries rather 122 00:08:30,059 --> 00:08:33,419 Speaker 3: than carry on with refining here. And of course by 123 00:08:33,458 --> 00:08:37,338 Speaker 3: that time it was. Some of it was forty to 124 00:08:37,419 --> 00:08:43,819 Speaker 3: fifty years old, and these chemical engineering production processes, equipment 125 00:08:43,859 --> 00:08:49,779 Speaker 3: doesn't last forever, so there was quite a maintenance operation 126 00:08:49,939 --> 00:08:54,099 Speaker 3: going on. So in the end, from an economic sustainability 127 00:08:54,259 --> 00:08:58,338 Speaker 3: point of view, they decided maybe we would shut it 128 00:08:58,379 --> 00:09:06,859 Speaker 3: down and import refined products. And that's another issue because 129 00:09:07,419 --> 00:09:11,339 Speaker 3: it was decided not to mothball the plant, which means 130 00:09:11,458 --> 00:09:14,458 Speaker 3: to sort of shut it down but put grease on 131 00:09:14,539 --> 00:09:17,898 Speaker 3: it and paint it and protect it so that it 132 00:09:17,978 --> 00:09:21,499 Speaker 3: could we used. It was just decommissioned. It was just 133 00:09:21,578 --> 00:09:24,259 Speaker 3: shut down and that was it. So parts of it 134 00:09:24,299 --> 00:09:27,098 Speaker 3: have gone rusty and parts of it have been sold off, 135 00:09:27,139 --> 00:09:30,219 Speaker 3: and there's more other bits that are possibly going to 136 00:09:30,259 --> 00:09:33,739 Speaker 3: be sold from what I understand the government, I think 137 00:09:33,779 --> 00:09:40,059 Speaker 3: Minister Shane Jones has been thinking of re commissioning the refinery, 138 00:09:40,618 --> 00:09:44,499 Speaker 3: but it would be very difficult and very expensive to do, 139 00:09:44,779 --> 00:09:48,458 Speaker 3: so there has been a report to assess whether that's 140 00:09:48,738 --> 00:09:53,258 Speaker 3: feasible or not. The idea of being that in this 141 00:09:53,379 --> 00:09:57,059 Speaker 3: day and age, with all the geopolitical unrest and such like, 142 00:09:57,858 --> 00:10:02,378 Speaker 3: we would have more security if we produced more of 143 00:10:02,419 --> 00:10:05,419 Speaker 3: our own fuels, but that's. 144 00:10:06,299 --> 00:10:09,099 Speaker 2: Unlikely to happen. I think. 145 00:10:09,179 --> 00:10:11,779 Speaker 3: I think to the cost it would be billions of 146 00:10:11,779 --> 00:10:14,378 Speaker 3: dollars to renovate it. 147 00:10:14,578 --> 00:10:18,219 Speaker 1: In terms of the chat about making the area or 148 00:10:18,259 --> 00:10:22,059 Speaker 1: Marsden Point a special economic zone, how does that sit 149 00:10:22,098 --> 00:10:22,939 Speaker 1: with you, Ralph? 150 00:10:23,458 --> 00:10:26,459 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, again it's the company that's come up with 151 00:10:26,498 --> 00:10:30,458 Speaker 3: this concept and Minister Shane Jones has said, oh, this 152 00:10:30,618 --> 00:10:33,179 Speaker 3: could be a good idea, so he's got involved there 153 00:10:33,179 --> 00:10:36,978 Speaker 3: a bit. To what degree I don't know, but basically 154 00:10:38,019 --> 00:10:40,819 Speaker 3: it's saying, well, we've got all these resources, all these facilities, 155 00:10:40,819 --> 00:10:41,299 Speaker 3: how can. 156 00:10:41,179 --> 00:10:42,419 Speaker 2: We best utilize them? 157 00:10:42,738 --> 00:10:46,779 Speaker 3: And so extra storage is one they've talked about producing 158 00:10:46,858 --> 00:10:52,378 Speaker 3: green hydrogen, which is different hydrogen that comes from methane 159 00:10:52,379 --> 00:10:57,059 Speaker 3: from natural gas releases emissions into the atmosphere carbon dioxide 160 00:10:57,098 --> 00:11:00,419 Speaker 3: as part of producing hydrogen, whereas green hydrogen, if you've 161 00:11:00,419 --> 00:11:05,659 Speaker 3: got renewable electricity to electoralize the water and produce the hydrogen, 162 00:11:06,098 --> 00:11:09,659 Speaker 3: then there's no carbon emissions coming from that they've got. 163 00:11:09,858 --> 00:11:14,378 Speaker 3: There's a possibility of doing that. Hydrogen as a fuel 164 00:11:14,819 --> 00:11:19,939 Speaker 3: is debatable in many ways at the moment, whether it 165 00:11:19,978 --> 00:11:21,939 Speaker 3: be for cars or trucks or planes. 166 00:11:22,939 --> 00:11:24,779 Speaker 2: Technically possible, but is it. 167 00:11:25,458 --> 00:11:29,619 Speaker 3: Energy efficient to use all that electricity to produce hydrogen, 168 00:11:29,699 --> 00:11:32,858 Speaker 3: store the hydrogen to turn the hydrogen back into electricity, 169 00:11:33,299 --> 00:11:33,859 Speaker 3: or maybe. 170 00:11:33,738 --> 00:11:36,059 Speaker 2: Use electricity directly for a car. 171 00:11:36,179 --> 00:11:39,779 Speaker 3: Obviously idiots makes more sense than for an aeroplane, but 172 00:11:39,858 --> 00:11:43,258 Speaker 3: green hydrogen is a possible product. 173 00:11:43,019 --> 00:11:43,819 Speaker 2: That they could use. 174 00:11:44,858 --> 00:11:50,139 Speaker 3: They could also produce biofuels their liquid fuels that could 175 00:11:50,218 --> 00:11:55,178 Speaker 3: replace spetrol and diesel. The IATA, the International Air Transport 176 00:11:55,338 --> 00:12:00,499 Speaker 3: Association of All Airlines Air New Zealand being a strong member, 177 00:12:01,059 --> 00:12:05,618 Speaker 3: has from some years looked at sustainable aviation fuels and 178 00:12:05,699 --> 00:12:08,659 Speaker 3: they've been analyzing this to a great degree. United Era 179 00:12:08,699 --> 00:12:10,699 Speaker 3: of Emirates I've been involved with a little bit and 180 00:12:10,738 --> 00:12:14,978 Speaker 3: they've been very strongly supporting this and advocating for the concept, 181 00:12:15,059 --> 00:12:18,738 Speaker 3: even though they produce oil themselves. The IATA have got 182 00:12:18,779 --> 00:12:22,419 Speaker 3: no different technologies that they can that they've approved in 183 00:12:22,498 --> 00:12:27,499 Speaker 3: order to make these jet pule and one. 184 00:12:27,379 --> 00:12:31,338 Speaker 2: Of them is through using green hydrogen. Another one, which. 185 00:12:32,858 --> 00:12:37,699 Speaker 3: Channel Infrastructure is now looking at in association with Air 186 00:12:37,779 --> 00:12:42,659 Speaker 3: New Zealand and SCION, which was Forest Research Institute, is 187 00:12:42,699 --> 00:12:47,019 Speaker 3: to convert woody biomass waste from the forest. So you 188 00:12:47,098 --> 00:12:49,699 Speaker 3: take out the logs and then you're left with all 189 00:12:49,738 --> 00:12:53,539 Speaker 3: the slash which is quite controversial at the moment and 190 00:12:53,299 --> 00:12:57,138 Speaker 3: in Sweden and the Austrian whatever. And I've been advocating 191 00:12:57,179 --> 00:12:59,299 Speaker 3: here for many years too. We should be using that 192 00:12:59,738 --> 00:13:01,179 Speaker 3: to chip it up and turn. 193 00:13:01,019 --> 00:13:03,978 Speaker 2: It into heat and power. We can turn it into. 194 00:13:03,819 --> 00:13:07,579 Speaker 3: Electricity and it's very viable and it makes good sense 195 00:13:08,019 --> 00:13:09,059 Speaker 3: and it's low carbon. 196 00:13:09,379 --> 00:13:12,379 Speaker 1: But it's an expensive though, Ralph is that where the 197 00:13:12,458 --> 00:13:14,779 Speaker 1: special Economic Zone can come in we can get some 198 00:13:14,819 --> 00:13:19,299 Speaker 1: overseas investors in to invest in things like that. 199 00:13:19,019 --> 00:13:20,379 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. 200 00:13:20,458 --> 00:13:23,179 Speaker 3: I mean, it's been done for heat and power for 201 00:13:23,259 --> 00:13:25,419 Speaker 3: decades in many countries. 202 00:13:24,978 --> 00:13:26,098 Speaker 2: So it's not expensive. 203 00:13:26,259 --> 00:13:30,019 Speaker 3: If you've got the system in place, it can be competitive. 204 00:13:30,259 --> 00:13:33,738 Speaker 3: But if you've got going to sustainable aviation fuels, it's 205 00:13:33,779 --> 00:13:37,619 Speaker 3: a bigger process. It's a refining process, if you like, 206 00:13:37,659 --> 00:13:40,819 Speaker 3: of the woody biomass into liquid biofuels. And that's where 207 00:13:40,858 --> 00:13:46,338 Speaker 3: the Economic zone could attract these investors for sure, which 208 00:13:46,379 --> 00:13:48,939 Speaker 3: of course is what government's got in mind as being 209 00:13:49,858 --> 00:13:53,858 Speaker 3: a good incentive to do so. And so the process 210 00:13:53,899 --> 00:13:56,899 Speaker 3: there or lands That Tech is a company which is involved, 211 00:13:56,939 --> 00:14:01,139 Speaker 3: which was originated in New Zealand some twenty years or 212 00:14:01,139 --> 00:14:04,618 Speaker 3: more ago from a PhD study which was looking at 213 00:14:04,699 --> 00:14:08,458 Speaker 3: bacteria to take emissions from steel mills and turn them 214 00:14:08,458 --> 00:14:11,218 Speaker 3: into ethanol, which is a liquid fuel. 215 00:14:11,379 --> 00:14:13,179 Speaker 2: You can run petrol cars on ethanol. 216 00:14:13,779 --> 00:14:18,059 Speaker 3: And that developed into a company and then that went international. 217 00:14:18,098 --> 00:14:20,019 Speaker 2: They've still got a re search office in Auckland. 218 00:14:20,099 --> 00:14:24,219 Speaker 3: It was New Zealand innovation at its best and they 219 00:14:24,459 --> 00:14:28,779 Speaker 3: are now looking at jet fuels as a subsidiary company 220 00:14:28,819 --> 00:14:34,059 Speaker 3: of Lanthatch and Scion's been looking at producing ethanol from 221 00:14:34,459 --> 00:14:38,459 Speaker 3: woody biomass for decades and it's not easy. I mean, 222 00:14:39,339 --> 00:14:44,219 Speaker 3: when I was producing biodiesel in nineteen seventies, Forest Research 223 00:14:44,299 --> 00:14:49,579 Speaker 3: Institute was looking at ethanol from woodchips and after twenty 224 00:14:49,699 --> 00:14:52,259 Speaker 3: or thirty years they sort of gave up. So it 225 00:14:52,379 --> 00:14:54,619 Speaker 3: is a challenge, but there's more development going on now. 226 00:14:54,699 --> 00:15:00,859 Speaker 3: So this is where this consortium is thinking that ideally 227 00:15:00,939 --> 00:15:06,859 Speaker 3: Marsden Point could be a world leading center for producing 228 00:15:06,939 --> 00:15:11,539 Speaker 3: sustainable aviation fuels. What the volume is that they can 229 00:15:11,619 --> 00:15:16,139 Speaker 3: produce is probably enough for New Zealand, but on a 230 00:15:16,179 --> 00:15:21,659 Speaker 3: global capacity it's a real ch challenge through substitute avgas 231 00:15:21,779 --> 00:15:27,179 Speaker 3: aviation fuel for sustainable aviation fuels, but it's technically possible 232 00:15:27,179 --> 00:15:30,579 Speaker 3: to do and even you can term municipal solid waste 233 00:15:30,619 --> 00:15:32,659 Speaker 3: instead of going into a landfill, you can turn that 234 00:15:32,779 --> 00:15:35,419 Speaker 3: into sustainable. 235 00:15:34,819 --> 00:15:35,619 Speaker 2: Fuels as well. 236 00:15:35,899 --> 00:15:40,179 Speaker 3: So there's great hope, great potential there, but there is 237 00:15:40,219 --> 00:15:45,179 Speaker 3: a challenge a on the chemistry beyond the costs see 238 00:15:45,459 --> 00:15:48,659 Speaker 3: on having a regular supply. Where would all the wood 239 00:15:48,739 --> 00:15:51,539 Speaker 3: chips come from? How do they get to the refinery? 240 00:15:51,739 --> 00:15:54,579 Speaker 3: Coastal shipping might be the answer to that, and rail 241 00:15:54,699 --> 00:15:58,459 Speaker 3: as well that they've got to be delivered there in 242 00:15:58,579 --> 00:15:59,459 Speaker 3: large volumes. 243 00:15:59,859 --> 00:16:01,379 Speaker 2: But it's certainly worth looking at. 244 00:16:01,899 --> 00:16:13,059 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Rolph. The privately owned Marsden Point 245 00:16:13,259 --> 00:16:17,219 Speaker 1: was New Zealand's only fuel refinery until it was decommissioned 246 00:16:17,459 --> 00:16:21,259 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two to become an import only fuel 247 00:16:21,379 --> 00:16:26,379 Speaker 1: terminal under the name Channel Infrastructure. CEO Rob Buchanan is 248 00:16:26,419 --> 00:16:33,379 Speaker 1: with us now to take us through what the future holds. Rob, 249 00:16:33,539 --> 00:16:37,779 Speaker 1: how much fuel flows through Marsden Point at the moment 250 00:16:37,899 --> 00:16:38,819 Speaker 1: and where does it all go? 251 00:16:39,339 --> 00:16:44,299 Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's around three billion or over three billion 252 00:16:44,379 --> 00:16:47,459 Speaker 5: liters a year of fuel that goes through the Marsten 253 00:16:47,539 --> 00:16:51,619 Speaker 5: Point import terminal system. And just to give you a 254 00:16:51,619 --> 00:16:57,739 Speaker 5: thumbnail sketch of how that works, our customer's earth ships 255 00:16:57,779 --> 00:17:02,539 Speaker 5: at Marsden Point where their product is stored either petrol, 256 00:17:02,579 --> 00:17:06,178 Speaker 5: diesel and jet and a significant number of tanks that 257 00:17:06,219 --> 00:17:09,699 Speaker 5: we've got back three hundred million liters of storage on site. 258 00:17:09,979 --> 00:17:14,059 Speaker 5: Most product is ship down the pipeline to Auckland where 259 00:17:14,099 --> 00:17:18,059 Speaker 5: it is then distributed either to the Auckland and Waycana 260 00:17:18,059 --> 00:17:20,699 Speaker 5: region or in the as a jet direct talk from 261 00:17:20,739 --> 00:17:24,259 Speaker 5: airport and a small amounts are taken off at our 262 00:17:24,379 --> 00:17:28,099 Speaker 5: site to a truckloading facility for distribution into Northland. 263 00:17:28,539 --> 00:17:33,059 Speaker 1: How might Marsden Point adapt towards I suppose a renewable 264 00:17:33,259 --> 00:17:35,659 Speaker 1: energy or sustainability in the future. 265 00:17:36,259 --> 00:17:38,819 Speaker 5: Great question. So there's a couple of things there. I 266 00:17:38,859 --> 00:17:43,059 Speaker 5: think the first for us is, you know, we we 267 00:17:43,139 --> 00:17:47,339 Speaker 5: think that the future for decarbonization of aviation is sustainable 268 00:17:47,339 --> 00:17:51,499 Speaker 5: aviation fuel, which is dropping, which is to say that 269 00:17:51,619 --> 00:17:55,779 Speaker 5: it can flow through our infrastructure today. So as their 270 00:17:55,859 --> 00:18:02,019 Speaker 5: industry transitions from fossil jets to sustainable aviation fuel over 271 00:18:02,019 --> 00:18:05,179 Speaker 5: the next twenty thirty years, you know that product can 272 00:18:05,179 --> 00:18:08,099 Speaker 5: come straight through the Marton Point of Port terminal system 273 00:18:08,379 --> 00:18:12,059 Speaker 5: like it can today. One of the unique features of 274 00:18:12,099 --> 00:18:15,179 Speaker 5: our location and a mast point, and actually it's a 275 00:18:15,219 --> 00:18:18,459 Speaker 5: function in our history is we've got a very large 276 00:18:18,579 --> 00:18:23,139 Speaker 5: land which is consented for at least the next thirty 277 00:18:23,139 --> 00:18:28,659 Speaker 5: five years anyway for fuels manufacture. And so one of 278 00:18:28,699 --> 00:18:33,539 Speaker 5: the significant opportunities that we're exploring is renewable fuels manufacture 279 00:18:33,579 --> 00:18:34,379 Speaker 5: on our site. 280 00:18:34,179 --> 00:18:37,339 Speaker 1: As well and all the infrastructures there for that. Or 281 00:18:37,339 --> 00:18:41,659 Speaker 1: do you need significant investment from government or say elsewhere 282 00:18:41,899 --> 00:18:43,619 Speaker 1: under a special economic zone. 283 00:18:43,659 --> 00:18:46,299 Speaker 5: Say, well, to be clear, we're not looking for investment 284 00:18:46,339 --> 00:18:50,659 Speaker 5: from government, so just to put that one to be head. 285 00:18:50,739 --> 00:18:55,019 Speaker 5: But otherwise the answer is yes to both. So yes, 286 00:18:55,059 --> 00:18:58,139 Speaker 5: there is a significant amount of infrastructure there by virtue 287 00:18:58,539 --> 00:19:05,139 Speaker 5: of a range of decommissioned refinery assets and refined product 288 00:19:05,259 --> 00:19:08,419 Speaker 5: tanks which are available for fuel storage and then the 289 00:19:08,459 --> 00:19:12,459 Speaker 5: pipeline which can ship that product to Auckland or indeed 290 00:19:12,459 --> 00:19:14,699 Speaker 5: the Gend where it can be put into a boat 291 00:19:15,019 --> 00:19:19,819 Speaker 5: and distributed elsewhere. But also there is a significant amount 292 00:19:19,819 --> 00:19:23,939 Speaker 5: of investment that would be required by our partners ultimately 293 00:19:25,139 --> 00:19:28,979 Speaker 5: to bring renewable fuels manufacture to master Point. So one 294 00:19:29,019 --> 00:19:32,219 Speaker 5: of the projects that we're working on with a consortium 295 00:19:32,259 --> 00:19:36,419 Speaker 5: of international investors is indeed repurposing some of the old 296 00:19:36,459 --> 00:19:39,019 Speaker 5: refinery assets for biofuels production. 297 00:19:38,779 --> 00:19:41,619 Speaker 2: And is eart what's the goal with that? 298 00:19:41,699 --> 00:19:44,699 Speaker 1: So when we talk about biofuels, what would that then 299 00:19:44,739 --> 00:19:45,619 Speaker 1: be used for? 300 00:19:46,219 --> 00:19:49,819 Speaker 5: Yeah, so in relation to that particular project, in particular, 301 00:19:51,379 --> 00:19:56,659 Speaker 5: the main areas of focus renewable diesel or an alternative 302 00:19:56,699 --> 00:20:01,138 Speaker 5: to diesel, and obviously sustainable aviation fuel, And just to 303 00:20:01,179 --> 00:20:05,219 Speaker 5: speak to both of those, clearly there is a pathway 304 00:20:05,299 --> 00:20:11,539 Speaker 5: for decarbonization of light transport and EVS and adoption will 305 00:20:11,539 --> 00:20:14,739 Speaker 5: go up and down over time, but ultimately you know 306 00:20:14,819 --> 00:20:19,259 Speaker 5: that pathway is there. I think that the pathway for 307 00:20:19,339 --> 00:20:23,379 Speaker 5: heavy transport. And if you think about tractors on farms 308 00:20:24,419 --> 00:20:29,619 Speaker 5: getting milk from remote locations in New Zealand to manufacturing sites, 309 00:20:30,259 --> 00:20:32,979 Speaker 5: getting our products to export markets and getting them in 310 00:20:33,019 --> 00:20:38,339 Speaker 5: a boat and shipping them overseas, that's where renewable diesel 311 00:20:38,499 --> 00:20:41,619 Speaker 5: is an opportunity to decarbonize that particular part of the 312 00:20:41,619 --> 00:20:45,379 Speaker 5: supply chain. The opportunity and aviation, as I spoke to before, 313 00:20:45,619 --> 00:20:47,699 Speaker 5: is sustainable aviation fuel. 314 00:20:47,979 --> 00:20:51,579 Speaker 1: In terms of sustainable aviation fuel, though, does the whole 315 00:20:51,619 --> 00:20:54,419 Speaker 1: world have to get on board for it to work? 316 00:20:54,779 --> 00:20:59,019 Speaker 5: Well, that's actually great question, and so you know that 317 00:20:59,219 --> 00:21:02,658 Speaker 5: the most important point about sustainable aviation fuel is that 318 00:21:02,739 --> 00:21:06,979 Speaker 5: it's dropping. So where it wouldn't work is if we 319 00:21:07,419 --> 00:21:11,819 Speaker 5: couldn't use that fuel an existing jet turbine technology today. 320 00:21:11,979 --> 00:21:14,979 Speaker 5: So you know the most important thing is that it's dropping. 321 00:21:15,459 --> 00:21:18,059 Speaker 5: You can blend it with jet today and it can 322 00:21:18,099 --> 00:21:21,419 Speaker 5: go straight into the aircraft that any Zealand for example, 323 00:21:21,539 --> 00:21:25,299 Speaker 5: is fly around New Zealand or overseas. And so that 324 00:21:25,979 --> 00:21:30,299 Speaker 5: means that we don't have to wait for technology changes 325 00:21:31,179 --> 00:21:34,739 Speaker 5: at aircraft level, which I think, let's space it would 326 00:21:34,859 --> 00:21:38,379 Speaker 5: take decades. We can actually get into this piece of 327 00:21:38,459 --> 00:21:44,179 Speaker 5: work now, and various countries are taking different or making 328 00:21:44,179 --> 00:21:49,379 Speaker 5: that adoption at different speeds. Certainly Europe is going faster 329 00:21:49,659 --> 00:21:53,019 Speaker 5: than many other places. But actually some of our major 330 00:21:53,059 --> 00:21:58,259 Speaker 5: trading partners in Asia have sustainable aviation fuel targets as well, 331 00:21:58,459 --> 00:22:00,139 Speaker 5: like Japan and Singapore. 332 00:22:00,259 --> 00:22:02,939 Speaker 1: Why isn't it happening you know, tomorrow then? Or does 333 00:22:02,979 --> 00:22:05,299 Speaker 1: it cost a lot of money? I know that the 334 00:22:05,379 --> 00:22:09,779 Speaker 1: recommissioning project was costed out at about four point nine 335 00:22:09,819 --> 00:22:12,819 Speaker 1: billion to seven point three billion. That was if we 336 00:22:13,019 --> 00:22:17,339 Speaker 1: made Marsden Point an oil refinery against say, obviously that's 337 00:22:17,379 --> 00:22:19,699 Speaker 1: a pipe dream, and that's probably are you are you 338 00:22:19,739 --> 00:22:22,259 Speaker 1: confident to say that that's actually never going to happen. 339 00:22:22,539 --> 00:22:26,019 Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, I think the government did a significant piece 340 00:22:26,019 --> 00:22:29,179 Speaker 5: of work on the recommissioning of the refinery and found 341 00:22:29,179 --> 00:22:33,178 Speaker 5: that it was infeasible ultimately, so you know, it was 342 00:22:33,219 --> 00:22:37,379 Speaker 5: permanently decommissioned and our position hasn't changed on that. I 343 00:22:37,419 --> 00:22:40,899 Speaker 5: think on that's the same aviation fuel piece. I probably 344 00:22:41,339 --> 00:22:44,619 Speaker 5: distinguished between the opportunity to manufacture it and New Zealand 345 00:22:44,659 --> 00:22:47,379 Speaker 5: at master point, which we think is a fantastic opportunity, 346 00:22:47,939 --> 00:22:50,059 Speaker 5: and the fact that it can actually be brought into 347 00:22:50,099 --> 00:22:53,459 Speaker 5: New Zealand by a boat today and distribute it through 348 00:22:53,499 --> 00:22:56,819 Speaker 5: our supply chain. But you've landed on one of the 349 00:22:56,859 --> 00:23:01,699 Speaker 5: key issues for adoption. There's nothing cheap about decarbanization. We've 350 00:23:01,739 --> 00:23:05,659 Speaker 5: seen it in the electricity sector in that transition to 351 00:23:05,739 --> 00:23:10,419 Speaker 5: renewal electricity and the impact that that's had on electricity prices, 352 00:23:11,019 --> 00:23:14,179 Speaker 5: and it's the same with us the same aviation fuel. 353 00:23:14,419 --> 00:23:19,779 Speaker 5: It's as that technology gains traction and incredib said scale 354 00:23:19,939 --> 00:23:22,099 Speaker 5: is built around the world in the manufacture of the 355 00:23:22,139 --> 00:23:25,179 Speaker 5: stable aviation fuel. I think the costs can come down, 356 00:23:25,339 --> 00:23:30,379 Speaker 5: but right now it's significantly more expensive than fossil jet today. 357 00:23:30,699 --> 00:23:34,979 Speaker 5: So the impact on is ultimately borne by airlines or 358 00:23:35,019 --> 00:23:39,539 Speaker 5: customers for making that choice around substitution between fossil jets 359 00:23:39,699 --> 00:23:41,539 Speaker 5: and stable aviation field. 360 00:23:43,859 --> 00:23:50,859 Speaker 6: Our investigating the re establishment of marsten Point refinery. Sadly, 361 00:23:51,579 --> 00:23:56,139 Speaker 6: we are left to gather the results of an awful 362 00:23:56,259 --> 00:24:01,019 Speaker 6: decision made over the last two years, and it's driven 363 00:24:01,299 --> 00:24:05,859 Speaker 6: sved by a mixture of wocism, a mixture of naivety, 364 00:24:06,699 --> 00:24:12,499 Speaker 6: and an unwillingness to accept without gas with our fuel, 365 00:24:13,059 --> 00:24:16,898 Speaker 6: the nation will collapse. With New Zealand first in charge 366 00:24:16,899 --> 00:24:20,739 Speaker 6: of such an initiative, our resilience will prosper. 367 00:24:22,979 --> 00:24:26,979 Speaker 1: What's the future look like for Marsden Point, say in 368 00:24:27,019 --> 00:24:30,418 Speaker 1: the next ten years and then twenty years and so forth. 369 00:24:31,019 --> 00:24:33,019 Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, we put out I think, as you know, 370 00:24:33,179 --> 00:24:37,739 Speaker 5: the marsten Point Energy Precinct, which is our vision the 371 00:24:37,779 --> 00:24:42,579 Speaker 5: future of that site, and i'd summarize to you in 372 00:24:42,779 --> 00:24:44,979 Speaker 5: a couple of ways. You know, we see it as 373 00:24:45,459 --> 00:24:47,979 Speaker 5: over the next ten to fifteen years as a massive 374 00:24:48,019 --> 00:24:52,139 Speaker 5: opportunity for energy security for New Zealand. And by that 375 00:24:52,299 --> 00:24:55,299 Speaker 5: I mean we've got the ability to store more fuel, 376 00:24:55,539 --> 00:25:00,139 Speaker 5: We've got the ability to manufacture biofuels at Marsten point 377 00:25:00,619 --> 00:25:04,419 Speaker 5: noting that the feedstock for biofuels is domestic, so we 378 00:25:04,499 --> 00:25:11,059 Speaker 5: aren't subject to the geopolitical risks that come with international shipping. 379 00:25:11,699 --> 00:25:15,619 Speaker 5: And we are also working on some energy firming opportunities 380 00:25:15,659 --> 00:25:19,138 Speaker 5: as well, like peak electricity peaking and the like, and 381 00:25:19,219 --> 00:25:22,139 Speaker 5: so we think it's a real opportunity for an energy 382 00:25:22,179 --> 00:25:25,139 Speaker 5: security play in New for New Zealand in a world 383 00:25:25,179 --> 00:25:29,699 Speaker 5: which is quickly becoming more geopolitically contested. And we think 384 00:25:29,699 --> 00:25:33,819 Speaker 5: it's a massive opportunity for Northland if the Energy Precinct 385 00:25:33,899 --> 00:25:35,779 Speaker 5: is built out as to how we think it could 386 00:25:35,779 --> 00:25:38,939 Speaker 5: be over the next ten to fifteen twenty years. It's 387 00:25:38,979 --> 00:25:43,099 Speaker 5: twenty thousand construction jobs, it's twelve hundred jobs on an 388 00:25:43,139 --> 00:25:46,259 Speaker 5: ongoing basis, it's a quarter of a billion dollars contribution 389 00:25:46,379 --> 00:25:51,019 Speaker 5: to New Zealander GYP. It's a massive opportunity for New 390 00:25:51,099 --> 00:25:54,419 Speaker 5: ZEALANDIC and if you think about some of the industrialization 391 00:25:54,579 --> 00:25:59,259 Speaker 5: that we're seeing around us with manufacturing closing high energy prices, 392 00:26:00,499 --> 00:26:03,259 Speaker 5: we've got the opportunity and to lean into solving a 393 00:26:03,259 --> 00:26:05,579 Speaker 5: couple of those things with the Energy Precinct. 394 00:26:05,499 --> 00:26:08,459 Speaker 1: And in order for all of those things to happen seamlessly. 395 00:26:08,699 --> 00:26:12,459 Speaker 1: Do we need a special Economic zone, Well, I think the. 396 00:26:12,939 --> 00:26:19,579 Speaker 5: SEZ, which the Associate Minister for Energy announced back in 397 00:26:19,619 --> 00:26:24,859 Speaker 5: February as something that government was considering, is I think 398 00:26:24,939 --> 00:26:28,539 Speaker 5: something that would speed up the development of the energy precinct. 399 00:26:29,339 --> 00:26:34,859 Speaker 5: So when we talk to international investors and international capital providers, 400 00:26:35,699 --> 00:26:38,619 Speaker 5: they've got the choice to put their capital and their 401 00:26:38,699 --> 00:26:42,619 Speaker 5: ip and many locations around the world. We think master 402 00:26:42,779 --> 00:26:48,899 Speaker 5: points particularly unique location, but that especially economic zone provides 403 00:26:48,979 --> 00:26:53,859 Speaker 5: that long term government endorsement or this being a place 404 00:26:54,299 --> 00:27:00,139 Speaker 5: for energy security type projects, that international investors can feel 405 00:27:00,179 --> 00:27:04,579 Speaker 5: comfortable and safe about deploying capital into this area and 406 00:27:04,739 --> 00:27:08,659 Speaker 5: recovering that capital and returns which are very long dated. 407 00:27:09,099 --> 00:27:15,499 Speaker 1: And is anything happening at all? Ministers just flocking to 408 00:27:15,619 --> 00:27:18,699 Speaker 1: Marsden Point to have a look around all of a sudden, 409 00:27:19,019 --> 00:27:21,619 Speaker 1: You've had three in the last few weeks. 410 00:27:24,659 --> 00:27:27,179 Speaker 5: Yeah, Look, we've got stuff happening right now. So we're 411 00:27:27,219 --> 00:27:30,419 Speaker 5: in the process of building what will be or converting 412 00:27:30,579 --> 00:27:33,579 Speaker 5: an old quarring tank from the refinery turned to what 413 00:27:33,659 --> 00:27:37,898 Speaker 5: will be New Zealand's equal largest jet tank for one 414 00:27:37,939 --> 00:27:41,899 Speaker 5: of our customers and energy and that tank SIT's next 415 00:27:41,899 --> 00:27:44,499 Speaker 5: to the other largest tank, jet tank in New Zealand, 416 00:27:45,939 --> 00:27:48,579 Speaker 5: and so that's been developed at the moment, it's got 417 00:27:48,619 --> 00:27:54,819 Speaker 5: a number of innovations which will help provide additional product quality, 418 00:27:55,219 --> 00:27:57,979 Speaker 5: which is obviously critically important for a product like jet. 419 00:27:58,139 --> 00:28:03,419 Speaker 5: We've actually commenced construction for a new Bitchamen import terminal 420 00:28:03,659 --> 00:28:07,939 Speaker 5: for one of our new customers, Higgins, and so that's 421 00:28:07,979 --> 00:28:12,619 Speaker 5: going to involve building a new Bitchumen import line onto 422 00:28:12,659 --> 00:28:17,939 Speaker 5: our wool for jetty storage and distribution facility. And noting 423 00:28:18,059 --> 00:28:22,138 Speaker 5: the government's police are our roads at national significance and 424 00:28:22,219 --> 00:28:26,138 Speaker 5: the fact that they're looking at significant investment and roading 425 00:28:26,219 --> 00:28:30,019 Speaker 5: and Auckland at north of Auckland, the next nearest ficul 426 00:28:30,099 --> 00:28:32,779 Speaker 5: An import terminal is in port A Tower Honor, so 427 00:28:33,299 --> 00:28:36,419 Speaker 5: you know it'll be an incredibly important and valuable set 428 00:28:36,499 --> 00:28:40,219 Speaker 5: for the delivery of those things. So no, absolutely, we're 429 00:28:40,299 --> 00:28:43,059 Speaker 5: kind of full flight right now getting on with some 430 00:28:43,139 --> 00:28:43,779 Speaker 5: of these things. 431 00:28:43,939 --> 00:28:49,579 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Rob, Thank you very much. That said, 432 00:28:49,579 --> 00:28:52,739 Speaker 1: for this episode of the Front Page, you can read 433 00:28:52,779 --> 00:28:57,259 Speaker 1: more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld 434 00:28:57,419 --> 00:29:01,179 Speaker 1: dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by 435 00:29:01,299 --> 00:29:04,659 Speaker 1: Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 436 00:29:05,219 --> 00:29:09,539 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio 437 00:29:09,739 --> 00:29:13,179 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 438 00:29:13,299 --> 00:29:15,259 Speaker 1: for another look behind the headlines.