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Speaker 1: Afternoon. A war of words has broken out on the

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Speaker 1: right of politics. Over the weekend, Former National Party Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Jenny Shipley had a crack at ACT leader David Seymour,

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Speaker 1: accusing him of inviting civil war with his Treaty Principles bill.

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Speaker 1: This is what David fired back this morning.

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Speaker 2: Jenny Shipley, it sounds like she took about as much

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Speaker 2: care on those comments as she took on reviewing the

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Speaker 2: accounts into as a director at MAINZI or quite frankly,

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Speaker 2: I just don't know why she would say that. It

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Speaker 2: is grossly irresponsible, especially for a former prime minister. And

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Speaker 2: as for Chrispin Lisson is showing the kind of haughtiness

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Speaker 2: and business that is unbecoming of someone who's had their time.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: Jenny's not answering her phone today, but former Treaty negotiation

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Speaker 1: minister Chris fin Layson is high.

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Speaker 3: Chris, good evening, How are you very well?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? So did you hear it this morning?

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Speaker 3: I did. I striving to the airport and heard him

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Speaker 3: have a go at Jenny and me, what do you think? Well?

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Speaker 3: I was a bit of it. I mean, I thought

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Speaker 3: David wanted to debate the issues, but when people sort

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Speaker 3: of try and debate them, he turns on them. I

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Speaker 3: wasn't too worried about me. Really. A lot of people

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Speaker 3: think I'm a bit haughty and up myself, and it's

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Speaker 3: fair enough. But I thought the comments about Jenny Shipley

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Speaker 3: were a bit nasty.

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Speaker 1: Really, what about the mains her handling of Mainzill.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that kind of thing. You know, She's borne a

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Speaker 3: heavy burden over that, and I just felt very sorry

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Speaker 3: for her.

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Speaker 1: Now, Chris, what do you make I mean, to some extent,

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Speaker 1: fair enough that the personal attacks are probably a little

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Speaker 1: bit out of, you know, off brand for him. Let's

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Speaker 1: just say. But Dame Jenny Shipley, her comments at the

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Speaker 1: weekend were pretty wild, don't you think.

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 3: I think what she was really getting at is that

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Speaker 3: we've had pretty good race relations in this country. We

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Speaker 3: all annoy one another from time to time, that we

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Speaker 3: sort of get on pretty well, and she's just worried

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Speaker 3: that what could be happening could indicate a serious deterioration

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Speaker 3: and race relations and pitting New Zealand or against New Zealander.

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Speaker 3: Do we really want that? No?

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Speaker 1: But sometimes I mean, do we really want to shy

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Speaker 1: away from some tough debates that we need to have

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Speaker 1: just because we're scared people are going to get upset.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely not, and I totally agree with that proposition.

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Speaker 3: We have to have some tough debates, but those who

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Speaker 3: initiate the debate need to be prepared for a bottle.

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Speaker 3: And the trouble with David's bill is that some parts

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Speaker 3: of it don't belong in a Treaty Principles bill. They

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Speaker 3: belong in a Bill of rights source or in a constitution,

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Speaker 3: and it's fundamentally flawed and very badly drafted.

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Speaker 1: We'll explain to Chris, and you make a fair argument,

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Speaker 1: but explain something to me.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Normally, we allow a bill like this to go to

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Speaker 1: the select committee process and we nutted out and we

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Speaker 1: hope to take out the things that we don't like

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Speaker 1: and keep the things we do like. But what is

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Speaker 1: going on is that the response to this bill is

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Speaker 1: so hysterical people are calling for the bill to be

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Speaker 1: dropped before we even get to that stage. Why.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I think that's actually an excellent question, and I

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Speaker 3: don't want to sort of go on at length, but

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Speaker 3: let me just say this. My first term as an

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Speaker 3: opposition MP, the Justice Committee had to deal with Doug

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Speaker 3: Wollerton's deletion of the principles of the Treaty Bill and

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Speaker 3: Michael Cullen and Halen Clark, as part of an arrangement

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Speaker 3: with UZM first said, oh, yeah, you go to a

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Speaker 3: select committee hearing it was incoherent and badly drafted. I

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Speaker 3: was on the committee and we had a good look

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Speaker 3: at it, and then came back to the House and

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Speaker 3: dumped it. And so initially I was saying to myself, well,

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Speaker 3: why can't you do the same with this nonsense? But

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Speaker 3: I think it takes place against a backdrop of perceived

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Speaker 3: antagonism towards Mari on a number of fronts, and it's

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Speaker 3: become part of that problem. So, yeah, I hear what

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Speaker 3: you're saying, but it's a different time, a eerror on

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Speaker 3: different circumstances.

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Speaker 1: Chris, What would it also said in the interview is

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Speaker 1: he sort of suggested that the reason that yourself and

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Speaker 1: Dame Jenny are speaking out is because you're patch protecting,

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Speaker 1: Because the reason that we've got to the point that

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Speaker 1: we have where we are with race relations is partly

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Speaker 1: because of work that you've done and work that she's done.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know Jenny was Prime Minister for two years,

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Speaker 3: during which time the Naitahu Settlement was concluded, So I

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Speaker 3: don't know what she's done wrong. As for me, while

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Speaker 3: I was nine years as Treaty Minister, did the best

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Speaker 3: to get treaty settlements over the line, did a few

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Speaker 3: interesting ones, like, for example, the Wanganui River and the

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Speaker 3: tu Hui won both which have been successful. So I

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Speaker 3: don't know what particular sins I have to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I exercise I could probably argue with

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Speaker 1: you about the two hoy one. We've had arguments about

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Speaker 1: that on air before, haven't well, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: it was very successful.

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Speaker 3: Well we'll wait and see. I think it's actually done

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Speaker 3: by doing very very well. And I I saw the

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Speaker 3: Director General of Conservation the other day. I'm on the

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Speaker 3: table to where a board and she said things going

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Speaker 3: very well. So that's from doc.

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Speaker 1: All right, Chris listen, Thank you appreciate it. Chrispin Leason,

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Speaker 1: former Treaty Negotiation Minister. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive,

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Speaker 1: listen live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays,

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