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Speaker 1: Right now there's a call for urgent energy reform to

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Speaker 1: avoid New Zealand's de industrialization. The Northern Infrastructure Forum, together

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Speaker 1: with the Auckland Business Chamber, hosted an event I think

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Speaker 1: was today to come up with some solutions to the

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Speaker 1: huge cost of energy that is hurting business and Barnie Irvine.

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Speaker 1: Barnie Irvine is the executive director at the Northern Infrastructure

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Speaker 1: Forum and joins you, now, hello, Barnie good Eden, what

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Speaker 1: do you mean by New Zealand's d industrialization.

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Speaker 2: Well, what it refers to is the fact that I

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Speaker 2: mean we're currently in a situation where where there's such

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Speaker 2: a supply demand and balance and that as soon as

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Speaker 2: the demand ramps up, the inevitable response is that we

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Speaker 2: require businesses to reduce their demand, to suppress demand so

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Speaker 2: that they they're doing least of what they do, or

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Speaker 2: businesses are facing such high costs for energy that is

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Speaker 2: in the case of og, fiber solutions and others, they're

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Speaker 2: shutting their doors and so it's it's and this comes

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Speaker 2: an enormous cost.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And as you say, supply and demand, and when

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Speaker 1: you know the supply is not enough and the demands

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Speaker 1: up there and the price goes up, it drives, it

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Speaker 1: puts businesses out of business. So the question there the economics,

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Speaker 1: of course it is so the question is how are

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Speaker 1: we going to make the energy more affordable? So how

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Speaker 1: are we going to make the energy more affordable?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well we we. So we had about sixty sector

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Speaker 2: leaders with us yesterday from from a right across the right,

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Speaker 2: across the sector, generators, retailers, transmission companies, and investors and

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Speaker 2: so obviously there's a lot of talk about the challenges

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Speaker 2: the problems facing the sector, but big focus on solutions

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Speaker 2: and so some of the themes that came through really

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Speaker 2: clearly there where okay, well we we obviously really need

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Speaker 2: to increase the security of supply. We need security supply

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Speaker 2: through much more generation from renewables. There has to be

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Speaker 2: the long term sort of objective, So we're not relying

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Speaker 2: so heavily on hydro generation for both the base load

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Speaker 2: and the peak. We can rely on hydro okay, so.

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Speaker 1: Geo, thermal, geothermal, solar, offshore and on shore. When that's

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Speaker 1: the renewables, we've got the hydro.

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Speaker 2: Exit hydro, yes, hydro sort of we rely on hydro

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Speaker 2: to function as a battery, to deliver that that to

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Speaker 2: respond to the peak, because if we're not, if we're

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Speaker 2: not sort of putting such a load on on hydro,

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Speaker 2: it can perform that function.

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Speaker 1: Really rely on you said that cold of money. You

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Speaker 1: do actually say that, but you do realize this is

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Speaker 1: the week that a solar company went bust.

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Speaker 2: Right, and so we wouldn't be relying just on solar

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Speaker 2: wind as well geo thermal and and much.

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Speaker 1: More of all of that plus and I understand what

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Speaker 1: you're saying, but is it just is it? Is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it dream actualization?

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Speaker 2: Really?

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Speaker 1: You know, when we're having so many difficulties with solar

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Speaker 1: where we have a limitation on geo thermal and where

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Speaker 1: we have to spend an awful lot of money to

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Speaker 1: stick there, to stick the the the ones in the

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Speaker 1: in the in the air, to pick up the wind,

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Speaker 1: you know, is this is this something that we could

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Speaker 1: dream for? Is it actually achievable?

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Speaker 2: Oh well, it's certainly. The view of the group of

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Speaker 2: those gathered with us is that yes, it is achievable.

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Speaker 2: But the point is it has to be. We have

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Speaker 2: to have come up with solutions for this because what

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Speaker 2: we're dealing with at the moment just just you know,

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Speaker 2: just just isn't sustainable. And yeah, that's right. And so

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Speaker 2: look in terms of some of those initiatives, we need

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Speaker 2: to need to get more new entrants coming into into

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Speaker 2: the market. So there's some obvious tools we can use

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Speaker 2: there in terms of that the way pricing contracts are structured,

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Speaker 2: there are some some obvious opportunities there into detail of

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Speaker 2: those that we need much better stewardship leadership of the sector.

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Speaker 1: Can I just ask your questions here we go? You

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Speaker 1: want a single regulator?

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Speaker 2: Why to have a clear leadership of the of the sector.

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Speaker 2: At the moment it's disaggregated across a range of agencies

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Speaker 2: and there just isn't clear leadership. We need a single

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Speaker 2: agency with accountability. You want to develop it?

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Speaker 1: Yes, and that's good, a.

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Speaker 2: Proper, proper plan for the sector. And look at that.

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Speaker 2: The last point really critically is that there has to

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Speaker 2: be some sort of of market reform and that's getting

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Speaker 2: to that that you know, the gent tailor structure. There

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Speaker 2: needs to be some sort of separation of that gen

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Speaker 2: generation in retail function. Now that could be that could

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Speaker 2: be a structural separation along the lines of telcos, or

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Speaker 2: it could be operational you know, sort of keeping those

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Speaker 2: companies the same company, but that separating out those functions.

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Speaker 2: And and look, even the oecd IS is starting to

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Speaker 2: say that make the same sort of commentary about what needs.

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Speaker 1: Of course, of course, and we'll be saying this for

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Speaker 1: a while. And what we've wondered is, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: no plans for for for hydro, there is no plan

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Speaker 1: or there's some plans for renewables, but there hasn't been

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Speaker 1: enough from a number of administrations of all sides. Do

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Speaker 1: you really just want New Zealand in to start taking

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Speaker 1: electricity generation a lot more seriously?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, absolutely, that's that's it in a nutshell. That

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Speaker 2: the you know, the really strong sentiment in the room

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Speaker 2: yesterday at the event was what we have to act now.

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Speaker 2: We cannot just hope. At the moment, it was praying

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Speaker 2: use today. At the moment, we're relying on a hope strategy, right,

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Speaker 2: and hope just isn't going to get us there. We

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Speaker 2: need some definitive action. We need change, and we need

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Speaker 2: it now or else we're going to keep lurching from

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Speaker 2: crisis to crisis. And exactly as Minister Jones said, we're

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Speaker 2: going to slide into the industrialization.

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Speaker 1: Good stuff, Barnie, I thank you so much for your

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Speaker 1: time today.

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