WEBVTT - Ruth Money: Victims can feel heard again 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.401 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks 0:00:09.481 --> 0:00:11.521 EDB Politics Central. 0:00:12.441 --> 0:00:15.681 Yes, so, as I just turned the page here for 0:00:15.801 --> 0:00:18.321 another page for a second, I must have misordered bits 0:00:18.321 --> 0:00:20.081 of paper here. That's a bit embarrassing for me, isn't 0:00:20.081 --> 0:00:23.481 it Right? Today the government sentencing reforms will take effect 0:00:24.001 --> 0:00:27.681 and what it says restores real consequences for crime. So 0:00:28.161 --> 0:00:32.001 now judges can only apply a forty percent discount on 0:00:32.081 --> 0:00:36.281 sentences maximum. They're also toughening sentences for youth and reoffenders. 0:00:37.281 --> 0:00:39.961 Judges will crack down a retail crime and offenses against 0:00:40.001 --> 0:00:43.041 smaller businesses. They'll be tougher on offenses committed while on 0:00:43.201 --> 0:00:47.001 bail or parole. But most importantly, courts will be taking 0:00:47.001 --> 0:00:50.161 the victims needs and interests into account when sentencing, putting 0:00:50.201 --> 0:00:53.841 them at the heart of the judicial system. So Justice 0:00:54.321 --> 0:00:58.161 MP Paul Goldsmith said a soft on crime lediency and 0:00:58.201 --> 0:01:00.881 a culture of excuses resulted in a huge loss of 0:01:00.881 --> 0:01:04.561 public trust in our courts and they're hoping that getting 0:01:04.601 --> 0:01:06.161 this is batter is going to get it back on track. 0:01:06.161 --> 0:01:09.281 And Chief's Victims advisor to the government, Ruth Money is 0:01:09.321 --> 0:01:11.281 with me and no Ruth Good afternoon. 0:01:11.641 --> 0:01:12.361 Good afternoon. 0:01:12.761 --> 0:01:16.001 Are you happy with so these changes cacking today? I understand? 0:01:16.081 --> 0:01:18.041 Are you happy with where we are at? What did 0:01:18.041 --> 0:01:20.441 you make of the reforms? A? 0:01:20.561 --> 0:01:22.561 Look, I'm really happy in the direction that we're going. 0:01:23.241 --> 0:01:25.081 You know, typical ruth is never going to be happy 0:01:25.201 --> 0:01:29.761 until victims really are a party to the proceedings in 0:01:29.841 --> 0:01:33.441 our heard fifty fifty in our system. We're not quite 0:01:33.441 --> 0:01:36.041 there yet, but I'd have to say we are seeing 0:01:36.081 --> 0:01:39.041 some really good progress with this, and you know the 0:01:39.121 --> 0:01:43.481 recent movement with the stalking legislation, with the name suppression legislation, 0:01:43.721 --> 0:01:47.881 we are absolutely hitting in a much better direction actually, 0:01:47.921 --> 0:01:48.281 just on. 0:01:48.281 --> 0:01:52.001 The victim having their say. How do we ensure that 0:01:52.041 --> 0:01:54.841 we have a sort of consistency with outcomes? Because there 0:01:54.881 --> 0:01:59.281 will be some victims who are incredibly unhappy with the 0:01:59.321 --> 0:02:03.001 treatment that they've received in what's happened to them, and 0:02:03.041 --> 0:02:04.881 there may may be others who are more forgiving. So 0:02:05.601 --> 0:02:08.561 are we ended up with justice sort of depending on 0:02:08.641 --> 0:02:11.921 how forgiving your victim is? How do we have consistency? 0:02:11.921 --> 0:02:12.321 Do you think? 0:02:13.361 --> 0:02:15.561 Well? I mean there are still guidelines, you know, the 0:02:15.641 --> 0:02:21.881 legislative framework provides guidelines for training around processes, provides guidelines, 0:02:21.881 --> 0:02:23.121 and at the end of the day, it is the 0:02:23.201 --> 0:02:27.721 judge's court, so as much as and we are certainly 0:02:27.761 --> 0:02:32.321 moving to the victims being more heard, because what you're 0:02:32.321 --> 0:02:34.881 saying is correct. What's right for me as a survivor 0:02:34.961 --> 0:02:37.481 of something may not be right for you. So it 0:02:37.561 --> 0:02:40.041 is really important that we are heard in the process. 0:02:40.441 --> 0:02:45.081 And there haven't been that mechanism. Certainly haven't been consistent 0:02:45.521 --> 0:02:50.081 or effective mechanisms through the process for that to happen. Whereas, 0:02:50.121 --> 0:02:52.241 for example, what we're talking about today in terms of 0:02:52.281 --> 0:02:56.241 this amendment bill, it is there in law the sentencing 0:02:56.361 --> 0:02:59.761 must consider the impact on the victim, which it's really 0:02:59.801 --> 0:03:02.241 weird that it never actually used to say that before, 0:03:03.201 --> 0:03:06.641 but it does now. As I say, it is important 0:03:06.641 --> 0:03:08.841 that we are aware of the impact on the victim. 0:03:09.081 --> 0:03:11.281 But there are lots of things in the sentencing that 0:03:11.641 --> 0:03:16.601 just way up right, aggravating factors, mitigating factors, whether the 0:03:16.601 --> 0:03:19.881 offender has had a background that perhaps they need to consider, 0:03:20.081 --> 0:03:23.921 need some different help, or some type of integration, rehabilitation, 0:03:24.401 --> 0:03:26.361 so all of those things are put into the mix. 0:03:26.841 --> 0:03:30.681 But it was incredibly odd that we weren't considering the 0:03:30.721 --> 0:03:31.801 impact on the victims. 0:03:32.241 --> 0:03:34.641 What was the consultation process, like were you happy with 0:03:34.641 --> 0:03:36.681 it and what role did you play in these changes? 0:03:38.561 --> 0:03:42.001 Well, I have been a very active and squeaky wheel 0:03:42.081 --> 0:03:45.321 shall we stay since thirteen years in this space. So 0:03:46.601 --> 0:03:49.841 while I have submitted and encouraged people to submit through 0:03:49.841 --> 0:03:54.121 this process, I think from memory the final reading was 0:03:54.161 --> 0:03:57.361 in March, so it was I had already I started 0:03:57.481 --> 0:04:00.921 in this role in February, so I had been outside 0:04:00.961 --> 0:04:03.681 of the tent so to speak. I wasn't officially advising 0:04:03.761 --> 0:04:06.601 the government at that point. By was unofficially, of course, 0:04:06.681 --> 0:04:09.961 lobbying the government and anybody who would listen. But there 0:04:10.001 --> 0:04:15.681 have been many brave survivors make submissions around sentencing amendment 0:04:15.801 --> 0:04:19.641 and actually name suppression and stalking. So the select Committee 0:04:20.041 --> 0:04:25.321 and the justice process, the democratic process really does work right. 0:04:25.401 --> 0:04:30.281 People are giving their opinions and the politicians and the 0:04:31.361 --> 0:04:34.281 policy brains writing the legislation are getting there. 0:04:34.961 --> 0:04:37.281 This is going to sound like a strange question to 0:04:37.401 --> 0:04:40.601 some people, but is this in a way a win 0:04:40.801 --> 0:04:44.761 win for offenders as well, because we've heard that rehabilitation 0:04:45.721 --> 0:04:48.001 and short sentences do not go together. 0:04:50.081 --> 0:04:52.481 Look, I think it is a win win and that 0:04:52.521 --> 0:04:59.281 there are also some changes in that were cross party well, 0:04:59.321 --> 0:05:02.321 cross party supporting in terms some aggravating factors, Like you know, 0:05:02.401 --> 0:05:05.321 if there's an offender who is helping a young to 0:05:05.201 --> 0:05:08.521 and commitment to commit a crime, then that person needs 0:05:08.561 --> 0:05:12.201 real help, right, So there is an aggravating factor in 0:05:12.281 --> 0:05:15.001 sentencing for that person, so that we can make sure 0:05:15.041 --> 0:05:17.241 that that person does get the rehabilitation and the re 0:05:17.721 --> 0:05:21.761 integration that they need rather than perhaps not being considered. 0:05:22.241 --> 0:05:24.121 So yeah, I think, I mean, I don't think that 0:05:24.281 --> 0:05:27.601 is a strange question at all. You know, the system 0:05:27.721 --> 0:05:30.641 as we know, it's not effective for many of the parties, 0:05:30.761 --> 0:05:31.881 not just the victims. 0:05:32.041 --> 0:05:36.881 Yeah, when you say cross party support as well, are 0:05:36.961 --> 0:05:39.961 you confident that these changes won't just be undone by 0:05:39.961 --> 0:05:40.401 an election. 0:05:42.441 --> 0:05:46.841 No, I'm not confident of that. We haven't heard that 0:05:46.841 --> 0:05:50.681 that is going to help, But I would you know, 0:05:50.841 --> 0:05:55.081 when we read the statements of all the impact statements 0:05:55.161 --> 0:05:57.761 right before any of these things get considered in passed, 0:05:58.041 --> 0:06:00.681 it's really interesting to me that it's all about the 0:06:00.761 --> 0:06:04.121 number of offenders that we're going to imprison, but we 0:06:04.161 --> 0:06:06.881 don't consider the impact on the victims. We don't say 0:06:07.081 --> 0:06:10.081 this will increase the number of victims by thirteen hundred 0:06:10.121 --> 0:06:13.521 who are heard now, who are seeing, who are protected? 0:06:14.121 --> 0:06:16.801 So my role is to advise the government on things 0:06:17.001 --> 0:06:20.161 just like that, Hey, the victims need this because of X, 0:06:20.281 --> 0:06:23.841 Y and Z, So it doesn't actually matter who is 0:06:24.121 --> 0:06:26.401 you know, I'm the advisor to the government that I 0:06:26.521 --> 0:06:30.121 will be absolutely advising that this needs to stay and 0:06:30.161 --> 0:06:33.921 we need to help both offenders. Certainly the victims. 0:06:34.401 --> 0:06:36.361 Are these changes going to bring back some sort of 0:06:36.361 --> 0:06:38.201 confidence in our judicial system or is it going to 0:06:38.241 --> 0:06:39.241 be more of a slow boil. 0:06:41.281 --> 0:06:44.201 Well, it depends, I guess of how they are felt 0:06:44.241 --> 0:06:47.401 and seen. There certainly has been a bit of a 0:06:47.441 --> 0:06:52.241 concern from victims where in cases where I have been 0:06:52.321 --> 0:06:54.641 in the courtroom helping the victims through the system and 0:06:54.681 --> 0:06:57.561 there might be something like a seventy percent discount given 0:06:57.601 --> 0:07:01.041 to some of the offenders with just the most terrible, 0:07:01.241 --> 0:07:04.921 terrible case, and what happens there is. Yes, it's an 0:07:05.321 --> 0:07:09.281 absolutely devastating outcomes for the victims and their families, but 0:07:09.361 --> 0:07:14.321 it is also absolutely undermining the trust and confidence that 0:07:14.361 --> 0:07:17.041 people have in the justice system, not only the victims 0:07:17.081 --> 0:07:20.601 in their community, but the ripple is obviously has a 0:07:20.681 --> 0:07:24.281 much wider effect than that. So yes, I think if 0:07:24.281 --> 0:07:28.041 you look at the caps on sentencing discounts. You look 0:07:28.041 --> 0:07:32.081 at Now we can have cumulative sentences if you do 0:07:33.561 --> 0:07:37.281 choose to offend while you're on bail or parole, we've 0:07:37.321 --> 0:07:41.161 got a discount scale. Now there's an amendment around, you know, 0:07:41.241 --> 0:07:44.361 listening to victims as well as stalking, as well as 0:07:44.601 --> 0:07:47.281 us not cross examining children under the age of twelve 0:07:47.361 --> 0:07:51.001 about consent, as well as name suppression. You now start 0:07:51.041 --> 0:07:54.761 to feel as a victim and your community that victims 0:07:54.801 --> 0:07:55.841 are being listened to. 0:07:55.961 --> 0:08:00.441 Again, what do you know about the reaction to this 0:08:00.561 --> 0:08:04.561 legislation from judges Because a lot of the time people 0:08:04.601 --> 0:08:07.041 like to lay blame it judges, But I know a 0:08:07.041 --> 0:08:11.041 couple of judges personally, and they are also hostage to precedent. 0:08:11.081 --> 0:08:13.201 They say, well, I have to do that because they'll 0:08:13.201 --> 0:08:15.121 just appeal and then such and such a What do 0:08:15.161 --> 0:08:16.761 you know about the way it's going to be received 0:08:16.801 --> 0:08:17.401 by judges? 0:08:18.161 --> 0:08:20.761 That's right. I mean, the judges can only do what 0:08:20.801 --> 0:08:23.881 the judges can do within the legislative framework and within 0:08:23.961 --> 0:08:27.881 that precedent case law. So you know, and this is 0:08:27.921 --> 0:08:30.801 why I've been very vocal when things like that seventy 0:08:30.801 --> 0:08:33.641 three percent discount case went through because now we set 0:08:33.681 --> 0:08:36.801 a precedent. And now even if that judge in the 0:08:36.841 --> 0:08:40.841 next case doesn't want to do that, you're right, If 0:08:40.841 --> 0:08:43.041 they don't act in that way, then there will be 0:08:43.041 --> 0:08:45.561 an appeal. And an appeal is good for anyone. It 0:08:45.641 --> 0:08:49.401 clogs the court and again it delays and revictimizes the victim. 0:08:50.001 --> 0:08:53.041 So you know, judges cannot have only been able to 0:08:53.041 --> 0:08:56.121 work in a framework that you know they have been 0:08:56.241 --> 0:09:00.641 served right, This and other legislation sends a message to 0:09:00.681 --> 0:09:03.041 be able to say, hey, you've now got these tools 0:09:03.081 --> 0:09:03.281 and you. 0:09:03.361 --> 0:09:06.241 Toolkit right, So what what's the next challenge for the 0:09:06.321 --> 0:09:07.481 justice system? What are you working on? 0:09:08.921 --> 0:09:10.601 Oh, I've got lots of things. In fact, when i 0:09:10.641 --> 0:09:12.601 met with the minister last week you said, oh dear, 0:09:13.161 --> 0:09:14.801 you've got a big, long list, and you still have 0:09:14.921 --> 0:09:15.881 and it's not going to stop. 0:09:16.801 --> 0:09:19.201 Well, what do you think, what's what is top of 0:09:19.201 --> 0:09:20.921 the list, What's something that stands out you think? 0:09:21.201 --> 0:09:23.361 Look, the top of the list for me is how 0:09:23.521 --> 0:09:27.561 we at the moment treat sexual violence and family violence 0:09:27.601 --> 0:09:30.201 within a jury and within the kind of consent laws 0:09:30.241 --> 0:09:32.721 that we have. I'm very hot on that. I think 0:09:32.761 --> 0:09:35.561 we can do that a lot better. Other jurisdictions do 0:09:35.641 --> 0:09:40.601 it much differently. To us, it is terrifying to give 0:09:40.721 --> 0:09:44.761 evidence in a room full of a jury of strangers 0:09:46.081 --> 0:09:49.201 about the sexual violence that happens to you. Can we 0:09:49.241 --> 0:09:52.561 do that in a smarter, safer way that still ensures yes, 0:09:52.561 --> 0:09:56.081 you're innocent, will proven guilty, but that there are experts 0:09:56.121 --> 0:10:00.601 making decisions rather than twelve jury members who may or 0:10:00.641 --> 0:10:03.441 may not know anything about miss or courses control. 0:10:03.641 --> 0:10:05.801 Yeah, I mean you still have the role that jury. 0:10:05.841 --> 0:10:07.801 I mean I've extended this interview a little bit more 0:10:07.841 --> 0:10:09.361 than I should on the question side of things, but 0:10:09.401 --> 0:10:11.961 you still have. With the way we engage juries and 0:10:12.041 --> 0:10:14.361 the quality of jury service, I mean, they do an 0:10:14.361 --> 0:10:17.201 important job. And again, the people I speak to in 0:10:17.241 --> 0:10:20.521 the system have got various mixed views on the on 0:10:20.921 --> 0:10:22.121 how well juries work. 0:10:22.961 --> 0:10:25.241 Look, I think juries are a really important part of 0:10:25.281 --> 0:10:29.401 the process for much of the crime. But I do 0:10:29.481 --> 0:10:33.961 believe that sexual violence and family violence is a specialist area. 0:10:34.721 --> 0:10:37.561 And like the people that you're speaking to, you know, 0:10:37.721 --> 0:10:42.881 I've spent many a day in courtrooms watching juries, and 0:10:43.121 --> 0:10:46.361 you know, juries came from being a jury of our peers. 0:10:46.401 --> 0:10:48.681 You know, they were part of our kapu or our clan. 0:10:49.161 --> 0:10:52.321 They knew me, they knew you, and they were able 0:10:52.401 --> 0:10:56.481 to make kind of expert decisions because there was some 0:10:56.601 --> 0:10:59.361 knowledge there as well as the evidence. That's not what 0:10:59.401 --> 0:11:03.081 we get now. You know, our juries are certainly not 0:11:03.161 --> 0:11:05.681 a jury of our peers, so it is it's something 0:11:05.721 --> 0:11:07.081 that's worth looking at for sure. 0:11:07.361 --> 0:11:09.801 Hey, Ruth, well, thanks for all the work you're doing 0:11:09.921 --> 0:11:11.881 and thanks for your time this stuff and really appreciate it. 0:11:12.401 --> 0:11:15.081 Thanks to all the best that is Ruth Money. She's 0:11:15.161 --> 0:11:17.401 Chief victim's Advisor to the government, so that we were 0:11:17.401 --> 0:11:19.121 happy to do a bit of talkback on this. By 0:11:19.161 --> 0:11:20.521 the way, Oh eight one hundred and eighty ten eighty 0:11:20.521 --> 0:11:22.201 Not quite yet because we've got another interview to go. 0:11:22.801 --> 0:11:25.401 But are you happy with these new laws kicking in 0:11:25.521 --> 0:11:28.121 which restrict the amount of discount the judges can give. 0:11:28.601 --> 0:11:32.121 They're going to toughen sentences for youth and reoffenders. I 0:11:32.161 --> 0:11:34.161 think actually one of the big ones is the potential 0:11:34.161 --> 0:11:38.401 for cumulative sentences where if you commit an offense while 0:11:38.401 --> 0:11:40.561 you're on bail, it just doesn't get thrown in with 0:11:40.681 --> 0:11:42.841 all the others yet six months for eight months for this, 0:11:42.961 --> 0:11:44.921 six months for this, eight months for this, and in 0:11:44.961 --> 0:11:48.441 the end, it's just eight months for everything. The cumulative 0:11:48.481 --> 0:11:51.161 sentence thing always did baffle me a bit as to 0:11:51.201 --> 0:11:55.041 why we never saw it really applied. So your response 0:11:55.081 --> 0:11:57.121 to that interview with Ruth Money. Will be doing some 0:11:57.401 --> 0:12:01.321 talkback after roughly around just after three point thirty, but 0:12:01.521 --> 0:12:04.281 right right now, will be taking a quick moment. It's 0:12:04.321 --> 0:12:08.241 twenty what is it, twenty one past past three, and 0:12:08.241 --> 0:12:10.921 we'll be back having a chat with about tax policy. 0:12:11.601 --> 0:12:14.401 We've got a tax policy leader from PwC. You'll be 0:12:14.441 --> 0:12:16.721 with us in just a moment. This is News Talk 0:12:16.761 --> 0:12:18.521 seed B O eight hundred and eighteen eighty will be 0:12:18.561 --> 0:12:20.961 the number later on twenty one past three. 0:12:21.041 --> 0:12:23.841 For more from the Weekend collective, listen live to News 0:12:23.881 --> 0:12:27.521 Talk SEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast 0:12:27.601 --> 0:12:28.561 on iHeartRadio.