1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,240 Speaker 1: We've got a new MB. We're getting a new MB, 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: I should say, a new superministry M sert. They're calling 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: this one very fancy ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport. 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: It rolls several portfolios into one, replacing the ministries for 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: the Environment, Housing and Transport. Unsurprisingly, Chris Bishop is the 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: Minister for Housing, Transport, Infrastructure and RMA Reform and joins me. Now, Minister, 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: good afternoon, Good afternoon. Do you lose some job titles 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: if you're the minister of this big superministry. 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: No, the portfolios are separate, and that's ultimately over to 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,319 Speaker 2: the Prime Minister. But it's I think it'd be fair 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 2: to say that my experience in those portfolios has helped, 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 2: you know, convince me that bringing these agencies together into 13 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: into one agency is the right thing to do. 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: So one agency, but will still have lots of ministers. 15 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: Is that not a bit dumb? Well, it will. 16 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 2: It will have a range of ministers depending on who 17 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: holds the portfolios. Obviously I happen to have most of 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: them at the moment, but that that won't necessarily always 19 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: be the case. But if you think about the great 20 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: challenges we've got as a country from housing, through our 21 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: infrastructure deficit, through to reacting to climate change for example. 22 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: All of these functions are actually they fit together right, 23 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: So you can't do housing without planning reform, which we're 24 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: doing through the Resource Management Act. Now that's driven out 25 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: of MF at the moment, but it's intimately connected to housing. 26 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: And likewise, it's intimately connected to the role of local 27 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 2: government as well, because it's ultimately cities and regions that 28 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: implement spatial plans and then the district plans, and at 29 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 2: the moment it's all disconnected between three or four different 30 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 2: agencies that we're merging together into one. And you also 31 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: can't do it without transport for example as well. And 32 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: you know, most countries don't do it like this. Most 33 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: countries have a version of what we're creating, which you 34 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: know inserts a it's a working title. We weighed up with, 35 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 2: as we call it, meth. We decided against that Ministry 36 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 2: of Environment, Transport and Housing. But given our law and 37 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: order credentials are tough on crime rhetorical, we decided that 38 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: would be a very good idea. 39 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: At least you could have gone at least you could 40 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: have gone P for short, I mean, this is still 41 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: there's still a lot in here. To me, it just 42 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. Like everything, I understand everything that you're saying, 43 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: But then why not just have one minister looking after it? 44 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: Or isn't part of the problem we have in this 45 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: country that we have too many portfolios. We've got about 46 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: eighty Yeah. 47 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: Well, at the moment, I am the minister looking after it, 48 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: and you know, and it works. I think, well, you know, 49 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: I mean the others for others to judge as to 50 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 2: how we're going. But I think we're making a real 51 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: progress on all of the issues that I'm in charge of. 52 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 2: And ultimately that's a question for the prominent stuff. 53 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: So in terms of cost savings, are we going to 54 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: get any and how many jobs might go? 55 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: Yes, we are. The driver is not so much about 56 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: cost savings, although clearly there will be some on the 57 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: way through. I mean, if you just take a simple example, 58 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: all of these ministries have their own payrolls. For example, 59 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: they have a range of back off of stuff, and 60 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: so you'd expect there to be some efficiencies exactly how 61 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 2: many you know how much and how many we don't 62 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: know yet. That'll be for the first six months of 63 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: next year and frankly all of twenty twenty six as 64 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: the new ministry has stood up. But you know that 65 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: we will clearly expect some efficiencies on. 66 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: The way through. Okay, you've given the example of the 67 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: curl missed opportunity because we didn't have the housing joined 68 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: in when we were putting this thing together. It's going 69 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: to open next year. So let's look at, say a 70 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: second harbor crossing. How will this what changes? What is different? 71 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: If we put a second harbor crossing through under the 72 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: m seert then it would have been previously. 73 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: So I would expect integrated advice around the environmental impacts 74 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 2: of that, alongside the transport implications obviously, and if there's 75 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: any housing related components to it as well, then we'd 76 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: be able to take an integrated look at how all 77 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: of those things play out in practice. The City rail 78 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: Link is a really instructive example. I mean, we decided 79 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: to do the city rail Link, but we didn't think 80 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: about innovative funding and financing options around it. We didn't 81 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: think about the housing component of it. Only only now 82 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: are we up zoning around the City rail Link stations, 83 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: for example in Auckland. And you know, you can think 84 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: about it will started to be built in twenty fifteen, 85 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, ten years later, we've only just got onto 86 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: that level crossings is another one related to city railing, 87 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: so that the real benefits of city railing come from 88 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: increasing the number of trains and the frequency of those trains. 89 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: But to do that you need to make sure that 90 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: the level crossings that exist on the Auckland rail network 91 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: are done away with progressively. Only now are we getting 92 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: on with that level get so. 93 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: All of this will be taken care of by this 94 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: mega ministry. What about the council? Where does Wayne Brown 95 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: get his say or does he not get to say? 96 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: What happens there? 97 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 2: It means that Wayne Brown and other councils around the 98 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: country can deal with one government agency when it comes 99 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: to all of these issues. That is actually a massive 100 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: benefit of it. So if I'm a In fact, I 101 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: was talking to someone from Napier City Council the other 102 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: night actually at an infrastructure dinner, and she was saying, look, 103 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: it's a complete nightmare. 104 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: At the moment. 105 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 2: If we want to go and talk to the government 106 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: around around planning, around housing, around our transport connections, we're 107 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: going to talk to like four different agencies now you know, 108 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: is that possible? 109 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: Of course it is? 110 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: Is it efficient? 111 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: No? 112 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: Would they prefer to deal with one agency? 113 00:04:59,640 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: Yes? 114 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 115 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: Way What one final question. You've made a big thing 116 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: about this, you know, you kind of state to your 117 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: political career on it in a way. But the housing 118 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: shortage that we have how many a textas has just said, 119 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: can you tell Biship we don't have a housing deficit 120 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: in this country for God's sakes, that we've got them 121 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,119 Speaker 1: coming out our ears. We can't sell them quick enough. 122 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: How many are we short? 123 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: Well? I don't want to put a number on it, 124 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: but I just put this to you. We have one 125 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 2: of the most expensive housing markets in the developed world, 126 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: and I think we will We will have housing back 127 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 2: and back into balance with supply and demand when housing's affordable, 128 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 2: and it's clearly not. 129 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: At the moment hanging on. So how many are we short? Well, 130 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: it depends on where you are. 131 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: If you're in Auckland or Wellington, the whole country, you're 132 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 2: any number of many, many thousands, many number of thousands 133 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: of home short because we haven't built enough over the 134 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: last thirty years and the RMA is a big reason 135 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: for that. 136 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: So we're not quite sure how many we're short. What 137 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: should the price be? You said they need to come 138 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: down a lot. How much is a lot? 139 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: Well, I've talked in the past around having a house 140 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: price to come ratio of around three to five to one. 141 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: That's not the case at the moment. In Auckland it's 142 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: you know, around seven or eight to one. In Queenstown 143 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: it's like eleven or twelve or maybe even thirteen to 144 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: one in terms of house price to income ratio. So 145 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: now we're I'm not proposing that we have a massive 146 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: house price crash that would be that would be very 147 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: bad for the economy. But we need to make housing 148 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: more affordable over time and it's a long term goal 149 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: of this government to make housing more affordable. It's one 150 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 2: of the single best things we can do to solve 151 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: many of the social problems before in New Zealand. 152 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: All right, Minister, appreciate your time this afternoon. Thank you. 153 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: That is the Minister for Housing, Transport, Infrastructure and RMA Reform, 154 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: Chris Bishop. For more from Heather Duplassy Allen Drive, listen 155 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, 156 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.