Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Louise Aria and this is season six of our
Speaker 2: New Zealand Herald podcast The Little Things.
Speaker 3: And I'm Reid's good bradc Good to have you with us.
Speaker 3: As you may have noticed by now, we're releasing podcasts
Speaker 3: every two weeks this year. They're available at the same
Speaker 3: time Saturday mornings.
Speaker 2: In this podcast, we talked to experts and we found
Speaker 2: out all the little things you need to know to
Speaker 2: improve different areas of your life. We like to cut
Speaker 2: through the confusion and overload of information out there to
Speaker 2: help simplify life if we can, we sure do.
Speaker 3: Has it been run?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it has been fine. But I do have
Speaker 2: a question for you. Yeah, how's your underwear game? Because
Speaker 2: mine I have just noticed, well, I think I must
Speaker 2: have bought all my undies at the same time and
Speaker 2: they've all just decided to kind of fall apart at
Speaker 2: the same time. But they're not good. You were in
Speaker 2: Holy Undies, I am, and I just think, at the
Speaker 2: stage of my life, are they like sexy Lacey Hio
Speaker 2: you just got the cotton boring undies? And I think
Speaker 2: that what's happened in franchise scatters. I have spent my
Speaker 2: life looking after everybody else's needs, including their underwear needs,
Speaker 2: and I've just let mine go like it's the last priority.
Speaker 2: I don't know are other people like that.
Speaker 3: Well, that's funny you should say that, because I put
Speaker 3: on some licers the other day and put my fingers
Speaker 3: through them and I just continue to wear them. And
Speaker 3: then I did say to my partner though, hey, look,
Speaker 3: if something happened to me in the night and you
Speaker 3: take it to the hospital, could you just check my
Speaker 3: underwear please? Because I mean you still think about that.
Speaker 3: I mean that was something that your parents, you know,
Speaker 3: your mum said to you. You know that was that's
Speaker 3: an old fashion thing, you know, Well, what would happen
Speaker 3: if you were taken to hospital when your douty?
Speaker 2: And I would love to just do a survey of
Speaker 2: medical freshness and say to you, even notice the underwear?
Speaker 3: I don't think they do, but can I suggest for
Speaker 3: a woman of our age, you know, if you're going
Speaker 3: through perimenopause or menopause or something, or if you've noticed
Speaker 3: lots of changes, if you switch a little bit more
Speaker 3: in summer, the Marino underwear is absolutely fantastic. I'm a
Speaker 3: huge contract now are but I do have a bit
Speaker 3: of an issue with the bra because actually, I think
Speaker 3: too many of us aren't wearing bras that doing us
Speaker 3: any favors whatsoever. And I'm the same. You might have
Speaker 3: noticed this morning. I came in and all I was
Speaker 3: doing was pulling up my brasstraps because they're just falling
Speaker 3: down and my brain's absolutely I run across the road.
Speaker 3: I have to hold them, boobs.
Speaker 2: We cannot be the only people putting up with this
Speaker 2: kind of Occasionally, I.
Speaker 3: Go, right, I'm going to go and spend the money,
Speaker 3: and then I get there and I go, I got
Speaker 3: to put fuel on.
Speaker 2: The car, and I'd rather pair of by a pair
Speaker 2: of running shoes sufficient. Yeah, but anyway, all right, I
Speaker 2: just feel like we can't. I can't have a spourge.
Speaker 3: Yeah, make it. And I'd like to know whether you
Speaker 3: feel better knowing you've got some slightly more sexy and
Speaker 3: interesting non.
Speaker 2: Holy under Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Anyway to down the podcast, we're joined by Sonya Gray. Now, look,
Speaker 3: I am personally indebted to the work that Sonya does
Speaker 3: when it comes to neurodiversity. With her podcast No such
Speaker 3: Thing as Normal, She's filled the gate for so many
Speaker 3: people living with neurodiversity, raising a child with neurodiversity, or
Speaker 3: for those working and living with neurodiverse people, and I
Speaker 3: believe that everybody should listen to her podcast.
Speaker 2: Yep. Sonya's pot cast leave me feeling so well informed
Speaker 2: that I actually contacted people I knew who have neurodiversent children,
Speaker 2: and I apologize for any time I'd misunderstood their child
Speaker 2: or underestimated their genuine struggle to get timely and appropriate support.
Speaker 2: It was a huge eyepner for me.
Speaker 3: You're so right. It was a tool that I could
Speaker 3: sin to our family and you guys were really sweet.
Speaker 3: You were like, I'm going to listen to it, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 3: but it was an amazing tool to be able to
Speaker 3: sing your friends and family go, hey, you look just
Speaker 3: you're constantly asking how we are? This is how we are?
Speaker 3: You have a listen to this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, it was brilliant. So today we're going to talk
Speaker 2: to Sonya about women and ADHD and why so many
Speaker 2: women are being diagnosed later in life and what happens
Speaker 2: when peering miniporse who collides with ADHD. The impact can
Speaker 2: be brutal. We find out why and what we can
Speaker 2: do about it. Sonya will welcome to the little things.
Speaker 3: Cry.
Speaker 1: It was so such a beautiful intro. And I'm sitting
Speaker 1: here so tired because I'm you know, I'm in the
Speaker 1: dip of it, and when I hear things like that
Speaker 1: and what it means, that's what keeps me going. So
Speaker 1: thank you so so I.
Speaker 3: Mean, I've said to this, I've said this to you before.
Speaker 3: I think the first time I saw you after listening
Speaker 3: to the podcast, I just burst into tears and I
Speaker 3: and you know, one of the things that comes through
Speaker 3: and so many of the episodes that you do is
Speaker 3: the people that you speak to want connection with other
Speaker 3: people who have the same experiences. And that's and that's
Speaker 3: the key thing. That's why, that's why we're all just
Speaker 3: so moved by it, because we're like, hang on, we're
Speaker 3: not going through this on our own. We're not on
Speaker 3: our own, and we should explain you're tired just because
Speaker 3: you've got so many, you know, jobs on the go
Speaker 3: at the moment.
Speaker 1: And I do have family, you know that poor family
Speaker 1: get missed a lot of the time. I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: I do have a lot going on, but it's the
Speaker 1: podcast is my baby, and it means so much to
Speaker 1: me personally that I will it's just so much work
Speaker 1: to try and capture the nuances because there's so much
Speaker 1: out there about talking about people with ADHD or autism
Speaker 1: or dyslexia, and you need to talk to people with
Speaker 1: the lived experience and bring experts in to get that
Speaker 1: side of it. But getting that mix and that balance
Speaker 1: right and honoring the people that have so graciously told
Speaker 1: their story is just a lot of work and I
Speaker 1: have to put that work in, but it does mean
Speaker 1: I'm very tired and I get to you full easily.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned that we're nuanced because I think
Speaker 2: that I'm hoping well. I could be wrong that there's
Speaker 2: a broader understanding by EHD now, but I think the
Speaker 2: next layer to get to is the nuance because the
Speaker 2: span of impact for families and the people affected is
Speaker 2: so wide, and the understanding is well, it needs to
Speaker 2: be nuanced.
Speaker 1: It does, and each person is different. When we say
Speaker 1: it all the time, but each person's experience is different,
Speaker 1: and it just takes a bit of time to learn
Speaker 1: what their individual story is, what they you know, what
Speaker 1: support they need, and oh, there's so much I could
Speaker 1: say about this. I think we look at sometimes neurodivergence
Speaker 1: as being we need to give people something you know,
Speaker 1: they're taking from us. Whereas when you get to know,
Speaker 1: you know, I hear so many beautiful stories. And when
Speaker 1: you get when you hear these stories, you know, I
Speaker 1: get so much out of it. That's it means so
Speaker 1: much to me. Just it broadens your world to hear
Speaker 1: how other people experience the world. It is so fulfilling,
Speaker 1: And that's why I don't mind being tired.
Speaker 3: And there's there's a lot of similarities and maybe experiences,
Speaker 3: but you're right, you don't just just because you know
Speaker 3: or have met one person with ADHD, someone else's lived
Speaker 3: the experience could be quite different and how it impacts
Speaker 3: them it's quite different.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so this is where it's hard, because yes,
Speaker 1: you need a diagnosis in order to get the support
Speaker 1: in order to people, for people to have some kind
Speaker 1: of understanding of what you're going through. But also that's
Speaker 1: just the starting point. And then it's about who they
Speaker 1: you you know, who really are you?
Speaker 3: Okay, let's we're going to talk about women in ADHD
Speaker 3: sting because this is sort of becoming wonderful. We're sort
Speaker 3: of talking about this so much more and things do
Speaker 3: you mind if we start with your story. You were
Speaker 3: a late diagnosis in your fourges. What impact did that
Speaker 3: diagnosis have on you?
Speaker 1: None. Initially I was like, I mean I I don't
Speaker 1: know if you know, but I scored one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I was delighted about it, thank you. It was stoked
Speaker 1: with that. But I didn't even want to do the assessment.
Speaker 1: I was like, I said to the psychologists, I do
Speaker 1: not have ADHD, Like I can't be bothered doing your
Speaker 1: dumb test. Didn't say like that, but you know, just
Speaker 1: do the tests on you, which is something that a
Speaker 1: lot of psychologists do for parents because of that genetic
Speaker 1: component is so high. Yeah, did the test one hundred percent?
Speaker 1: And then I just was like, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's not me. So I just left it for a
Speaker 1: few years. And then things started to get hard and
Speaker 1: I revisited it and I went to see more people,
Speaker 1: and I talked to my mum, who said, to be honest,
Speaker 1: this kind of explains your whole childhood, and yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was a slow conversion, slow kind of I think
Speaker 1: for a lot of us, especially women, we come to
Speaker 1: a diagnosis with a history of anxiety and depression and
Speaker 1: a belief that it's a character flaw, that we're not
Speaker 1: good enough, you know, and that starts really early. And
Speaker 1: so to have someone say, actually, this is just how
Speaker 1: your brain works. Your internal filing system is a bit different.
Speaker 1: It just takes a little while to adjust to that
Speaker 1: to go, it's not my fault. You know, that was
Speaker 1: the case for me anyway. So but it's been a
Speaker 1: game changer. I really encourage people to explore it. Of course,
Speaker 1: everyone now in today's world is a bit distracted and
Speaker 1: can have sort of ADHD like traits. But if you've
Speaker 1: had those sort of things from childhood, I think it's
Speaker 1: worth getting assessment just to get an understanding of who
Speaker 1: you are.
Speaker 3: Was there anything in particular? Was there a moment where
Speaker 3: you then where you did come to accept it?
Speaker 1: A moment in itself. It was sort of a slow
Speaker 1: progression and you sort of you're peeling back the layers
Speaker 1: again and you're like, oh, that's why I can't what
Speaker 1: are you laughing at?
Speaker 3: No, Because we were oh, like we spent six months
Speaker 3: going oh, hang on. Like with our daughter, it was
Speaker 3: like the revelation moments, and we'd have them one a
Speaker 3: week and we would just be like oh, hang on,
Speaker 3: that explains that, Oh my gosh, remember you know, and
Speaker 3: it takes it does take a while for them to
Speaker 3: come to mind. Yeah, we were like we just looked
Speaker 3: back and we're like we're just laughing, going, oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: That explains that when she was two, and when she
Speaker 3: was she was so quirky and interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think as a child, I was really lucky.
Speaker 1: I have a wonderful mother. I'm saying that because she'll
Speaker 1: be listening, but even if she's not, she's so amazing.
Speaker 1: But she kind of went round after me. She was
Speaker 1: my scaffolding, and she literally and figuratively picked up stuff
Speaker 1: that I dropped behind me and made sure my life.
Speaker 1: I had quite a full life. I was an athlete
Speaker 1: and doing all sorts of things, and she just kind
Speaker 1: of wrapped me up. So I didn't really know that
Speaker 1: I wasn't coping until I left home and everything fell apart,
Speaker 1: and then you know, all these sort of anxiety issues
Speaker 1: and depression and for years and years and years, and
Speaker 1: the ADHD diagnosis. When I finally accepted it revealed that
Speaker 1: that anxiety and depression was because of undiagnosed ADHD. And
Speaker 1: the thing is, though that you kind of go, oh,
Speaker 1: I've got a diagnosis. I've accepted it, right, that's the beginning.
Speaker 1: Then the real work starts of really understanding yourself. I've
Speaker 1: kind of from the beginning and going who am I?
Speaker 1: The are?
Speaker 3: Harm moments is what we used to call them, have
Speaker 3: an aha moments?
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do I want?
Speaker 3: But that's really important for people to know because a
Speaker 3: lot of people go into the diagnosis and a lot
Speaker 3: of women you know, who are suddenly going maybe this
Speaker 3: could be it. They get the diagnosis and they go great,
Speaker 3: now I've got an explanation. But you're right, it is
Speaker 3: the very beginning of what can be quite a long journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also with sometimes with family and friends, you've
Speaker 1: played a particular role in their lives, you know, your
Speaker 1: whole life, and when you start changing, it can be
Speaker 1: hard for them to adjust because they're going, who are you?
Speaker 1: You know a lot of women with ADHD are the
Speaker 1: people pleases, the perfectionists, the ones that you know look
Speaker 1: after everyone are always yes, the nurturer is And then
Speaker 1: and it does often coincide with midlife. It's like I can't,
Speaker 1: I don't want to and I can't do that anymore,
Speaker 1: and that's quite confronting for people in your lives.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes, well, you have to that diagnosis forces you,
Speaker 2: I suppose to do a little bit of self analysis
Speaker 2: and distilling of the now and the past, and then
Speaker 2: probably yeah, re establish your place from then on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but for a long time, and I probably still am.
Speaker 1: You're straddling these two worlds, your old world and your
Speaker 1: new world because you know that we're so used habit
Speaker 1: to just be a certain way, and so it's quite destabilizing.
Speaker 2: So I mean, is it both a burden and a freedom?
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? But definitely more a freedom. Yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: think definitely more a freedom. But I do want people
Speaker 1: to know that it is a process and it can
Speaker 1: get a bit worse before it gets better. And I
Speaker 1: didn't have this, but for a lot of people who
Speaker 1: are late diagnosed, there's a lot of grief and anger
Speaker 1: and that takes a bit of time to work through.
Speaker 1: But I think for our parents, for our generation, they
Speaker 1: didn't know, you know, like the awareness has grown so much,
Speaker 1: so I don't think, I mean, do we even know
Speaker 1: about ADHD was maybe in the States? Yeah, our parents
Speaker 1: did the best they could.
Speaker 3: And I love that story about your mum, just walking
Speaker 3: around being the scaffolding making everything possible, just quietly there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that's what so.
Speaker 3: Many of our parents did. I mean, I don't know
Speaker 3: about I don't know about you guys, but the more
Speaker 3: I've learned about nar adiversity, the first thing I did
Speaker 3: was go back to my primary school and go, I
Speaker 3: wish I could apologize to Steve and I we could have,
Speaker 3: and I had, I could. I could visualize the kids
Speaker 3: who were we just thought of, with the naughty kids
Speaker 3: and the troublesome kids and the difficult kids. And now
Speaker 3: I realize, yeah, and now I'm just like, oh, bless,
Speaker 3: school was just to night me for them. I'm pretty
Speaker 3: sure they're all narrati virgent and they just got dropped
Speaker 3: in the naughty box and left there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So then what happens, and this is this is where
Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of women, it becomes anxiety depression.
Speaker 1: And I'm totally generalizing here, but for a lot of males,
Speaker 1: if you're told the way you are as wrong from
Speaker 1: an early age, you're going that has massive impacts. You
Speaker 1: know you're going to then go, well, I am wrong,
Speaker 1: I am wrong. I believe you know, these people that
Speaker 1: these teachers, parents, whatever telling me that I am wrong,
Speaker 1: I'll fulfill that, and yeah, it can lead down a
Speaker 1: really dark path. The problem I have with diagnosis is
Speaker 1: that we kind of go all the ADHD people are
Speaker 1: here in this box, or the autism here, or the dyslexia. Well,
Speaker 1: we know now that the co occurring conditions and it's
Speaker 1: just the person in front of you.
Speaker 2: I could be wrong here, but I feel what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Is it right now? We have as a sort of
Speaker 2: static view, there has been quite a static view of
Speaker 2: these things, and they've been put in boxes. And what
Speaker 2: we're hoping in the future is that that has evaporated
Speaker 2: to a certain extent and we're just seeing it as
Speaker 2: the fluid int mining.
Speaker 3: Of in front of you first, not a neuro divedrim
Speaker 3: person totally.
Speaker 1: And we're all products of our environment, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not just our brain wiring.
Speaker 2: Honestly. I work in a field where we deal with
Speaker 2: the area of cleftliff and palette and for it's still
Speaker 2: I go to conferences and people talk about cleft kids
Speaker 2: and instead of a child with a cleft, because every
Speaker 2: even with a left every single one is different and
Speaker 2: it is so frustrating. When are we going to see
Speaker 2: the person first and then their unique difference which is
Speaker 2: genuinely unique, next, and then deal with that person around
Speaker 2: that uniqueness, that that difference, rather than the Yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. And I think I've interviewed a scientists
Speaker 1: recently and we talked about how language is so important,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if I fully understood that, but
Speaker 1: in speaking to her, and also I did an episode
Speaker 1: on gender diversity, neurodiversity, the intersection, and that was really
Speaker 1: eye opening for me too around language and how it's
Speaker 1: you know, identity is so important and it's not that
Speaker 1: hard to get the language right.
Speaker 2: It's not and it's not political, and it's not you know,
Speaker 2: being what is the word?
Speaker 1: What is the word?
Speaker 3: But I try, I really try hard, and I've learned
Speaker 3: so much over the last few years, but I'm pulled
Speaker 3: up quite a bit at home and I'm and I
Speaker 3: can't like yep, no good And actually it's like it's
Speaker 3: not that hard, Francisca, just you know, listen, and you
Speaker 3: know it.
Speaker 1: Can be challenging for our generation because it's new and
Speaker 1: we're like, well they she he what does it matter?
Speaker 1: I can't get it right. But yeah, I've now really
Speaker 1: changed with that because I understand that for many people,
Speaker 1: in particular autistic people, identity is really important. It's something
Speaker 1: that has felt it. There's an eternal sense of identity
Speaker 1: and we have to honor that. How hard is it
Speaker 1: to just at least and I think you know, something
Speaker 1: someone said to me is if the intent is there,
Speaker 1: we're not always going to get it right. But people
Speaker 1: sometimes purposely choose not to get it right. That's right.
Speaker 2: So back to you though, in terms of a midlife diagnosis,
Speaker 2: we are seeing more of the midlife diagnosis. What's that
Speaker 2: down to? Do you think is it down to people
Speaker 2: getting the children diagnosed and then they're psychologists testing them
Speaker 2: or are people just more aware and thinking.
Speaker 1: I think it's both right, yeah, and I think it's
Speaker 1: quite unfortunate that there's this whole every one here's ADHD. Now,
Speaker 1: I get it, but it's like anything. You know, a
Speaker 1: few decades ago it was left handedness, and we runs
Speaker 1: left handed. Now were they already were?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's that I think for women, adult women
Speaker 1: are the most underdiagnosed of all the demographics, so there's
Speaker 1: some catching up to do. And at that midlife point
Speaker 1: there are many hormonal changes, so we can talk about perimenopause,
Speaker 1: and I think that is a big factor because the
Speaker 1: scaffolding you've built doesn't work anymore because of those fluctuations
Speaker 1: and hormones. I did not understand how massive that was
Speaker 1: until I did an episode on it, and it surprises
Speaker 1: me that any of us at the mid life stage
Speaker 1: are even standing. Yeah, because what the body is going
Speaker 1: through is it's huge.
Speaker 3: So when you talk to women with ADHD who are
Speaker 3: in perimenopause, what kind of experiences are they having?
Speaker 1: Well, I set it on a workshop specifically for ADHD
Speaker 1: women with perimenopause, and I did not hear anyone talk
Speaker 1: about hot flushes or libido problems or all the things
Speaker 1: that have been researched the most and that we traditionally
Speaker 1: think of as being associated with the menopausal transition. They
Speaker 1: spoke about the cognitive effects and the emotional effects as
Speaker 1: being huge. Burnout was massive, just not trusting themselves to
Speaker 1: do what they've always done. And I think this is
Speaker 1: relevant because it's not just about women with ADHD or
Speaker 1: who suspect they have ADHD. It's all women at this time,
Speaker 1: you know, your body is doing so much that like,
Speaker 1: estrogen is so bloody important, and it's fluctuating like anything,
Speaker 1: and you can't trust that you will be the same
Speaker 1: or be able to deliver it in the same way
Speaker 1: on any given day, and I think we do. I'll
Speaker 1: be totally honest. The whole menopause conversation hasn't been one
Speaker 1: that I have necessarily jumped into. I've kind of been like,
Speaker 1: how a little bit woman had menopause for since the
Speaker 1: beginning of time, Let's get over it. And this is
Speaker 1: where education is great and talking to people and going oh, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: and personally, as someone that had terrible burnouts, I'm still
Speaker 1: recovering from it. I'm like, potentially there was an hormonal
Speaker 1: factor there that I just didn't know about, and it
Speaker 1: wasn't me just not coping and not trying hard enough
Speaker 1: and being a bit useless.
Speaker 2: Well that's interesting, isn't it. I was thinking about this
Speaker 2: in my way over here today is thinking about the
Speaker 2: things that are real. Menopause is real, ADHD is real,
Speaker 2: and that we talk we start to talk about them,
Speaker 2: and you do get that slight eye rolling sometimes of
Speaker 2: people going, oh, we're really going to talk about this
Speaker 2: women have been having menopause. Well, once we know stuff,
Speaker 2: are we supposed to ignore it? I don't think so.
Speaker 2: And then when these things come in together, then that's
Speaker 2: another conversation that we still need, that we need to have.
Speaker 1: I know, and full disclosure, I was an eye roller
Speaker 1: and I'm conveyed like I'm cue, it's off my eye rolling. Now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel quite embarrassed about that. Not overtly, it's just like,
Speaker 1: oh whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we are in the phase of just getting
Speaker 2: on with things. That's what we do.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. But the difficult thing with ADHD
Speaker 1: and the cognitive impacts of perimenopause is that they cross over,
Speaker 1: so you don't really know where the one what is
Speaker 1: causing what. And I think, yeah, that can be really challenging.
Speaker 3: So, I mean, perimenopause kind of crashes into all our lives,
Speaker 3: you know, embarrassing that I didn't even know what it
Speaker 3: was till it crashed into my life, Like I didn't
Speaker 3: even know there was I just thought you had menopause,
Speaker 3: which was a year, and then you got on with
Speaker 3: the rest of your life like the whole Perie Partners.
Speaker 3: And the embarrassing thing is I'm still learning about my
Speaker 3: body and what it's doing and what you know. Anyway,
Speaker 3: hopefully we can change that for our daughter's generations and
Speaker 3: things to come, they might be a bit more prepared.
Speaker 3: But if you have ADHD, you call this sort of
Speaker 3: a collision. Like the ADHD and the pyimenopause, they just collide.
Speaker 3: So why do ADHD symptoms often get worse during menopause?
Speaker 1: Yeah? God, it took me so long to really nut
Speaker 1: out the science of this. I'm going to try and
Speaker 1: break it down as best I can. ADHD is characterized
Speaker 1: this is really really basic, but characterized by insufficient dopamine
Speaker 1: or just regulated dopamine and nore adrenaline. So in many
Speaker 1: cases people with ADHD develop workarounds and lean on estrogen,
Speaker 1: which is an important hormone for our brain, and lean
Speaker 1: on other pathways neural pathways. I was trying not to
Speaker 1: be too sciencey, but the.
Speaker 3: Problem is that with perimenopause, when our estrogen under adrenaline
Speaker 3: is moving around on things. For most of us, it
Speaker 3: moves around to a certain point and it creates a
Speaker 3: deregulation with our emotions and things like that. But the
Speaker 3: problem is if you've got ADHD, you're already dealing with
Speaker 3: a deregulated system, your emotions are You already have all
Speaker 3: these strategies or the scaffolding, as you say, in place
Speaker 3: to deal with that deregulation. So when that comes along,
Speaker 3: am I right in saying perimenopause just knocks all that
Speaker 3: scaffolding away, Like it just hits so much harder that
Speaker 3: that all disappears and you cannot all those coping mechanisms disappear,
Speaker 3: and it just becomes actually harder.
Speaker 1: Raw adhd yeah, left to deal with. Yeah. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: quite amazing how our brains work and adjust and essentially
Speaker 1: there's been a lot more effort put in over our
Speaker 1: lives to try and make up for, you know, what
Speaker 1: we perceive as being shortcomings. So an estrogen dopamine are
Speaker 1: Adrenaline relies so heavily on estrogen. So when it's fluctuating
Speaker 1: or already dysregulated dopamine.
Speaker 3: Dysregulated sorrylated yahds regulated?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's yeah. In short, everything goes haywire and it
Speaker 1: can feel like a collision, like the chair has been
Speaker 1: pulled out from under you. And I think still though,
Speaker 1: because women have no idea about this, and many don't
Speaker 1: know that they even have ADHD, they're still going what
Speaker 1: is wrong with me? And it is nothing wrong with you.
Speaker 1: This is a natural biological change. And I one thing
Speaker 1: I took to the women in the workshop about because
Speaker 1: some of them are doing it really hard, But I said,
Speaker 1: do you think there's a positive in any of this?
Speaker 1: Do you think that in some ways this collision has
Speaker 1: meant that you've had to just stop and peel back
Speaker 1: the layers and go, who am I? Because I can't
Speaker 1: do what I've always done? And they did say, yes,
Speaker 1: it's not fun, but it's a process and the outcome
Speaker 1: can be really positive and healthy.
Speaker 2: What you're describing is really interesting because I also think
Speaker 2: that if that is overwhelming, and then you're overwhelmed with
Speaker 2: anxiety and depression and your cortisol levels and things go up,
Speaker 2: then that has real health impacts on people. Look, as
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not a scientist, I don't, but I
Speaker 2: do believe.
Speaker 1: Genuinely, and there has incredible impacts. You know, this is
Speaker 1: protein called B D and F which all ours you know,
Speaker 1: so many of our systems rely on, and cortisole just
Speaker 1: basically stops it in these tracks, and so there's so
Speaker 1: much going on we're not growing those neuronal connections either.
Speaker 1: So it's it's lay it. The problem is lay it.
Speaker 2: Look, I really think it is that to me, you're
Speaker 2: describing that what is actually literally going on scientifically has
Speaker 2: been useful because if there's someone listening who's going.
Speaker 3: Oh, I thought I was validated.
Speaker 2: She just met peri menopause, maybe it's actually more than that.
Speaker 2: Maybe they're having an AHA moment because you know that,
Speaker 2: like you say, that sort of collision is going to
Speaker 2: have is going to have an impact in your life
Speaker 2: and and everyone in it.
Speaker 3: When you're sitting looking at yourself going why can't I
Speaker 3: do what I did last year? Why can't I do
Speaker 3: what I did six months ago? Why am I waking
Speaker 3: up really anxious about going to work?
Speaker 1: All this?
Speaker 3: Or that you do start to wonder what's going on
Speaker 3: with yourself and what's happening and are you just not coping?
Speaker 3: And I just think for someone to go, hey, it
Speaker 3: is a thing. There is it is a thing, and
Speaker 3: there is a scientific explanation. Let's start from there and
Speaker 3: once again sort of you know, start building up all
Speaker 3: those tools and put that skiffolding back in place.
Speaker 1: Healthy scaffolding, not scaffolding, that's just about pleasing society. I
Speaker 1: think that's really the masking style. The masking. The masking
Speaker 1: is exhausting, and I think you're you're forced or the
Speaker 1: masters falls away and you're just like, oh god, everyone's
Speaker 1: just seeing the real me, the one I've been trying
Speaker 1: to keep it.
Speaker 3: And I've had quite a few people talk to me
Speaker 3: about the symptom of sort of procrastination with perimenopause and ADHD,
Speaker 3: of losing their mojo, just just really struggling to be
Speaker 3: motivated in things.
Speaker 1: Is that something you've experienced, Well, I've experienced it my
Speaker 1: whole life. I mean, ADHD. We have interest based nervous systems,
Speaker 1: so if something's interesting, great, we can hyper focus with
Speaker 1: We are not motivated by importance. So you know, I
Speaker 1: need to pay that bill, or do the laundry, do
Speaker 1: the you know, yeah, yeah, laundry is a great one.
Speaker 1: Emptying the dishwasher, all those those the fleas of life
Speaker 1: I call them, and I want to get it done,
Speaker 1: but I cannot. I can't even explain it. I can't.
Speaker 1: It takes I have to rely on adrenaline and cortisol
Speaker 1: to do it. I'm trying to change that in myself.
Speaker 1: Now I'm being really aware of of when I'm doing
Speaker 1: that because it's not healthy. But I to me anyway,
Speaker 1: not a scientist, I think that is where a lot
Speaker 1: of the procrastination comes from. Is it's just not interesting.
Speaker 3: Fleas of life is such. I'm so not just because
Speaker 3: of the fuel prices, but having to stop and fill
Speaker 3: that you can, I'm just like, oh again, I just
Speaker 3: do it like that, those mundane, boring things that you
Speaker 3: actually sort of have to do because otherwise the car
Speaker 3: won't drive and I'll be stuck rare, but they do
Speaker 3: my head.
Speaker 1: In franchise Scar, thank you so much for saying that.
Speaker 1: I just I think I drove here on flashing red
Speaker 1: It's been a flashing red light for three days, and
Speaker 1: I thought, God, I'm going to have to ring and
Speaker 1: say I've broken down on the motorway and get one
Speaker 1: of your going in. I hate it why I have.
Speaker 3: To go to a petrol station where I can pay
Speaker 3: it the pump and leave again as quickly as possible.
Speaker 3: If I have to step foot inside and wait, like
Speaker 3: the biggest inconvenience of my life, I mean, what is
Speaker 3: going on?
Speaker 2: That's just really I write an electric Matt, I never
Speaker 2: and it has completely taken that out of the equation
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 1: I literally want and I don't care about cars at all.
Speaker 1: I'll drive whatever, but I will pay. I think I
Speaker 1: will pay the extra money to get real Yeah, then electric,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to I need some sort of hybrid
Speaker 1: with its minimal time at the petrol station. But I
Speaker 1: don't have to do when there's a list of things
Speaker 1: you have to do. Every thing that goes yeah, takes energy.
Speaker 3: It's before I get to hear I have to stop
Speaker 3: and fill up the camel.
Speaker 2: Will I will warn you about the electric car. I haven't.
Speaker 2: I absolutely cannot stand having to use a public electric
Speaker 2: You know, we went on a bigger right road ship.
Speaker 2: We had to stop a lot and watching people at
Speaker 2: picture stations stop and get their picture and arrive off
Speaker 2: while we were sitting there for half an hour. Do
Speaker 2: it at home. Do it at home.
Speaker 3: We'll work on this one. You're listening to the Little
Speaker 3: Things in Our guest on the podcast today as host
Speaker 3: of No Such Thing as Normal Podcasts, Sonya Gray, talking
Speaker 3: about ADHD in Midlife. We'll be back after the break.
Speaker 3: Welcome back, Sonya. Okay, So we've had a bit of
Speaker 3: a chat about what it's like when ADHD and pyramidopause collide.
Speaker 3: So what can we do about it? Like medication can
Speaker 3: be really useful. You know.
Speaker 1: I wish I could say, I wish I could go
Speaker 1: to the research and oh, these are the findings, this
Speaker 1: is what helps. There's no research. Oh truly, no research.
Speaker 1: I was so shocked.
Speaker 3: What have you discovered when it comes to research?
Speaker 1: One shocking stat that completely blew me away. They did
Speaker 1: a review on all the studies, a recent review, and
Speaker 1: all the studies into ADHD, of something like seventeen hundred
Speaker 1: and forty nine studies, only four were focused on women.
Speaker 3: This is nuts. Four.
Speaker 1: I mean there were a few women in the other studies,
Speaker 1: some of them. But and the excuse was that sometimes
Speaker 1: they give is women are hard to study because of
Speaker 1: the hormonal changes.
Speaker 2: Gosh, that doesn't make it more important, does it?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Can I throw another terrifying stat Someone didn't kind of go,
Speaker 3: that's really interesting. We should be studying this.
Speaker 1: Like, well now they are now slowly, but there's a
Speaker 1: lot to catch up. And but another stat that I
Speaker 1: read which shocked me, there are five times more studies
Speaker 1: on male a rectile dysfunction than on PMS. So PMMES
Speaker 1: effects about ninety percent of women, a rectile dysfunction effects
Speaker 1: nineteen percent of men, But there are five times more
Speaker 1: studies on these poor men with a reptile dysfunction.
Speaker 2: Look, I'm not knocking, and it must not be very nice,
Speaker 2: but PMES is no in the park either, Honestly, for
Speaker 2: crying out loud, right, I mean we've talked to Stacy
Speaker 2: Sim's a couple of times in this podcast about the
Speaker 2: you know, the exercise research and men. It just seems
Speaker 2: to be a pattern, right sure, Yeah, So.
Speaker 3: Okay, so there's not a lot of research, there's a
Speaker 3: there's not a list of one to ten things that
Speaker 3: we can do to make this better. Where can women start? Then,
Speaker 3: when it comes to dealing with their ADHDM pyraimenopause.
Speaker 1: I think it's back to connection. Yeah, when we talked
Speaker 1: about at the start, because what I saw in this
Speaker 1: workshop was the thing that the women got out of it.
Speaker 1: They got a lot of education, they understood what was
Speaker 1: happening with their bodies, with the ADHD, with perimenopause. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it was sitting around
Speaker 1: in a group with people that were experiencing what you
Speaker 1: were experiencing, and they could go, I'm not alone, I'm
Speaker 1: not going crazy. This is a thing, Sony.
Speaker 3: If we go back to medication, should women also be
Speaker 3: aware of the fact that they might have to alter
Speaker 3: their adh new medications, Like if things have been working
Speaker 3: up to now and they're suddenly not working, is that
Speaker 3: something that they should be just conscious of looking at.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, obviously you talk to your thing, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: the medical professional. But I think from what I've read
Speaker 1: and the people I've talked to that you know, if
Speaker 1: your dopamine receptors aren't working as well, then there's less
Speaker 1: for the medication to hold on to, and so you
Speaker 1: may need more. I mean yeah, but.
Speaker 2: Then also, if you've been newly diagnosed, medication will be
Speaker 2: new to you full stops.
Speaker 1: So totally. And look, I think it's on average about
Speaker 1: five different tweaks of medication and trying different ones and
Speaker 1: different delivery systems. And I think this is really important
Speaker 1: for people to know about ADHD medication just because the
Speaker 1: let's say you're taking rittlin that's methyl fenodate, but they're
Speaker 1: also different brand names, they are not the same, the
Speaker 1: delivery system is different.
Speaker 2: You're not experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah, slow build ups, hard, cracious, all sorts of difference things.
Speaker 1: And often when they run out of a particular let's say,
Speaker 1: run out of concerto, they'll give you something else, and
Speaker 1: people have terrible experiences because that is not right for them.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's really important to know and
Speaker 1: important to know that you know, they'll probably try you
Speaker 1: on the first one. It tends to be rittle, and
Speaker 1: they'll try you on first. If that doesn't work, that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean medication is not right for you, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's a real process, and you have a right
Speaker 1: to keep going back.
Speaker 3: And that comes back to what we spoke about at
Speaker 3: the beginning. If you're a woman who's in perimenopause who's
Speaker 3: starting to wonder and thinking about the diagnosis, diagnosis is great,
Speaker 3: but there is a road to travel afterwards. And I
Speaker 3: actually I'm not saying that as a negative. I'm actually
Speaker 3: trying to say that is a positive because if somebody
Speaker 3: had explained to me how long it would take for
Speaker 3: us to get our daughter to a really good place
Speaker 3: to find the drugs that would work to you know,
Speaker 3: then that would have been really helpful, you know, because
Speaker 3: you get given something, you go great, the magic pill,
Speaker 3: the silver bullet, and it might not be and that's
Speaker 3: absolutely fine. Yeah, don't panic, No, move on to the
Speaker 3: next thing. Keep trying, you will pretend you will more
Speaker 3: than likely find something that works for you and changes
Speaker 3: your life. It comes back. And I do think it's
Speaker 3: quite important just to have that patience and to understand
Speaker 3: that that.
Speaker 1: Could take time. Yeah. The problem is especially as a parent,
Speaker 1: and I know we've been in similar situations which essentially
Speaker 1: we were both in crisis stages with our daughters, and
Speaker 1: every new thing, every shiny new thing, every shiny new medication,
Speaker 1: you're like, this is it, this is going to be it,
Speaker 1: and when it doesn't work, you go low, You drop
Speaker 1: to lower than you were before, and it's almost like
Speaker 1: you need somebody to say, as you say, this is
Speaker 1: a process, we're going to try this. It might not work,
Speaker 1: but we're sticking with you. And that's really important I
Speaker 1: think for the for specialists, for clinicians to stick with people.
Speaker 2: And I'll never forget the walk we had when you
Speaker 2: had that revelation when you said, oh, this is a rollercoaster,
Speaker 2: this isn't linear, this is going I'm now learning about
Speaker 2: the peaks and troughs, and that changed everything. I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: it did.
Speaker 3: And it also because it then reminded me to just
Speaker 3: grab on and hold on to any little glimmer. It
Speaker 3: could be a tiny little thing that happened in the
Speaker 3: day that was a positive and a good thing, and
Speaker 3: that's been really good for me just in general in life.
Speaker 3: I've just learn just to kind of you roll with
Speaker 3: the punches, don't you. But you take that tiny, little
Speaker 3: moment and it could be something so small and insignificant
Speaker 3: to other people, but it's huge to you and your family,
Speaker 3: and you just hold on to that glimmer and you go, no,
Speaker 3: they can put the smile on my face today that glimmer,
Speaker 3: and that's all that matters. And tomorrow's another day.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm just remembering because of course, I interviewed
Speaker 1: you for my podcast last season. I encourage anybody to
Speaker 1: everybody to listen to that because it was so enlightening.
Speaker 1: You were so beautiful and you said something very similar
Speaker 1: to that, and I thought, God, that's just so lovely.
Speaker 1: The thing is, as a parent, when you're going through
Speaker 1: something like this with your child, it can feel so
Speaker 1: hopeless and it's almost like getting to a point where
Speaker 1: you accept that your life looks your life isn't the
Speaker 1: picture that you thought it was, and that is okay.
Speaker 3: It's absolutely fine, and there's huge freedom in it. I'm like,
Speaker 3: hang on, I don't have to do things the way
Speaker 3: people expect me to, or there is no one way
Speaker 3: to do things. This is quite fun and I've taken
Speaker 3: that kind of on board in my own life and
Speaker 3: kind of going it's liberating. I'm going to do it
Speaker 3: this way, or I'm going to do that, or actually,
Speaker 3: there's lots of different solutions to a problem.
Speaker 1: I remember we spoke about school, and we're both with
Speaker 1: our kids. You know, there's that you've got. We're told
Speaker 1: you've got to get to your kid to school. It's
Speaker 1: the law. And when you suddenly go school is not
Speaker 1: working for them, and I'm going to take control here
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, you know, the world doesn't end.
Speaker 3: No, it turns out they still get educated and off
Speaker 3: they go to university and the life goes on very
Speaker 3: quickly though. Parenting with ADHD and perimenopause.
Speaker 1: Hello, we're the colicious.
Speaker 3: So here we go. So it's a running joke in
Speaker 3: our family that you know, we're going through perimenopause. We've
Speaker 3: got the girls are going through either perimenopause or puberty
Speaker 3: in our house, which is you know, as my doctor said,
Speaker 3: it's not kind of the way things were supposed to
Speaker 3: be organized. You're supposed to have your kids nice and early,
Speaker 3: so by the time you got to perimenopause, you could
Speaker 3: just look after yourself and your children are independent. But
Speaker 3: we're not dealing with that now. We're all still got
Speaker 3: our hands full of looking after and nurturing other people.
Speaker 3: So how do how do you manage that? If you're
Speaker 3: if you're a mum, you are adhd you're heading perimenopause,
Speaker 3: quite possibly also looking after a neurodivergent child.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well god it's had, and quite possibly also
Speaker 1: caring for elderly pearents. Yes, there's so much. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't really know. Everyone's situation is different. But what
Speaker 1: I've found really helpful with my kids is to actually
Speaker 1: be really honest with what I struggle with. And you know,
Speaker 1: I don't have it all together. I'm not that mum
Speaker 1: that's going to remember to pick you up at this time.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be crap in a lot of ways, but
Speaker 1: I love you so much and if you can love
Speaker 1: me with all my crapness, then we're good. We're good.
Speaker 3: Because they are smarter than we think they are. They
Speaker 3: do pack up on all this. They understand that they
Speaker 3: can they can take on board someone a step from
Speaker 3: a parent like that, yeah I'm gonna go okay, yeah
Speaker 3: all right.
Speaker 2: But again that goes back to the importance of the
Speaker 2: diagnosis too, because then you are not masking and pretending
Speaker 2: to be everything all the time and be perfect and
Speaker 2: you always.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah, yeah. It gives you a language, it
Speaker 1: gives you an understanding, and then you can share that
Speaker 1: understanding and it takes a little while. But my kids
Speaker 1: are really I mean they're a little bit older now,
Speaker 1: they're seventeen, so you know, perhaps you know, when they
Speaker 1: were younger, they wouldn't have understood as well. But they're
Speaker 1: quite supportive of me.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not great, but they get it.
Speaker 2: There's every likelihood too that they may have peers who
Speaker 2: they do so who have had HD or on spectrum
Speaker 2: of some description, and then that therefore it's not even
Speaker 2: always new language for them.
Speaker 1: Oh no, they know so much more than we think
Speaker 1: they do, and there's so much more welcoming of difference,
Speaker 1: aren't they we have better?
Speaker 2: No, it's okay.
Speaker 3: Usually in our house when things happen, you know, excuses
Speaker 3: are thrown around, and things have thrown around, we're like,
Speaker 3: do not throw the decart at me, because of course,
Speaker 3: you know, my neurodivergent child is officially disabled, you know,
Speaker 3: and we're like, do not throw that card at me.
Speaker 3: This is not the time to throw the card at me.
Speaker 3: And then occasionally something will come up and we're trying
Speaker 3: to make something happen and we'll go to throw the decadens,
Speaker 3: throw the decaden and they were a bit naughty.
Speaker 2: We're using mate. I still throw the cancer carden there occasionally.
Speaker 1: Well, you've got to use what you have.
Speaker 3: You got to use what's your disposal. But I'd also
Speaker 3: love it if you could just share a little bit
Speaker 3: about your experience with burnout, because I think that this
Speaker 3: is another really common symptom that women have with ADHD,
Speaker 3: especially when the pyramid of pause.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with ADHD, with autism and just women in general, people,
Speaker 1: human beings in general. What is being asked of us?
Speaker 1: I think in society now is too much in a
Speaker 1: lot of cases. And yeah, especially for woman who a
Speaker 1: neurodivergent who get to midlife with all these changes. It's
Speaker 1: just too much. And I have been someone that is like,
Speaker 1: I just need to work harder. I can fix anything
Speaker 1: if I work hard. The first realization that that wasn't
Speaker 1: possible was with my daughter. It was the first humbling
Speaker 1: experience that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't
Speaker 1: fix it. That was heartbreaking. But then as I started,
Speaker 1: you know, I had all these projects on that meant
Speaker 1: a lot to me. I'm like, right, I can do
Speaker 1: it all. I will do it all, and it has
Speaker 1: to be perfect. And I could slowly feel my body
Speaker 1: over the weeks shut down and I got these weird
Speaker 1: feelings in the back of my neck and my head
Speaker 1: would be going funny. This is about two years ago.
Speaker 1: And then I made a deadline. I got my episode
Speaker 1: and got my story in and I literally collapsed and
Speaker 1: the kids had to pick me up off the floor
Speaker 1: and spend a month in bed. I was still trying
Speaker 1: to work though I still hate the laptop out, but
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I could hardly speak. It's like I just
Speaker 1: shut down. And what I've realized is this is not uncommon, and.
Speaker 3: Was it terrifying when it happened. Were you Were you
Speaker 3: scared when it happened?
Speaker 1: I was scared. Yeah, if I'm honest, I was scared.
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, we go to am I having
Speaker 1: a stroke? Yeah, having a stroke. But I but in
Speaker 1: my heart, I knew that I'd pushed it, and I
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes Yeah, there's a couple of things like
Speaker 1: I've got something. I hate getting anything wrong, and I
Speaker 1: got something wrong with a guest, not a big detail,
Speaker 1: but they weren't happy and I had to change it,
Speaker 1: and the guilt of that just was the tipping point
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 3: Where does that perfection come from, that desire for perfection
Speaker 3: come from?
Speaker 1: I well, I think I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: My mom says that she's like, who are you? I
Speaker 1: just I know you came out of my body.
Speaker 3: But after that it's like, no, I'm just I'm really
Speaker 3: intrigued as to what drives that in people. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I for me, I do think now that it is
Speaker 1: based on my ADHD And my earliest memory is of
Speaker 1: being two years old at daycare, which I was at
Speaker 1: just for a few hours a week, and missing an
Speaker 1: instruction from the person because you know, I'm in daydreamland ADHD,
Speaker 1: I now know, and just kind of going, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I can't trust my brain. And it must because I
Speaker 1: was you know, it must have been two and a
Speaker 1: half of the most so that's a really early memory.
Speaker 1: But that that was almost the starting point. And I always,
Speaker 1: you know, through my whole life, I've gone I can't
Speaker 1: trust myself. So I've got to work harder. I've got
Speaker 1: to be better. I've got to produce more and be
Speaker 1: better for the living live, for the playing field to
Speaker 1: be level.
Speaker 2: Right, So the seeds of that burnout was sown, oh
Speaker 2: hell yeah, yeah, many many years before.
Speaker 1: It's years in the making. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then of course, yeah, as you say, raising children,
Speaker 2: coming across the challenge that you can't fix, embarking on
Speaker 2: this amazing journey that of teaching us all about about
Speaker 2: ADHD and and that there is no such thing as normal,
Speaker 2: it was a huge gift to people. I meanwhile, you
Speaker 2: were burning out.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and I'm still recovering in two point one weeks,
Speaker 1: two weeks in one day, I get to stop for
Speaker 1: a little bit. So that's good.
Speaker 2: But so is that how you're dealing with Are you
Speaker 2: giving yourself patches of Carmen and don't have to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what I'll do a block of work and
Speaker 1: then I literally have to lie on the couch or
Speaker 1: the bed and shut my eyes and just either meditate
Speaker 1: or rest. So I build to rest in at various points,
Speaker 1: and I can or if I can feel it coming
Speaker 1: like that feeling. No, it sounds weird. It's a weird
Speaker 1: feeling at my neck into my head. It's sort of
Speaker 1: a panicky feeling, but it's very physical. If I feel
Speaker 1: that coming, I've got to stop.
Speaker 2: Because the rest doesn't actually come unless you put it in.
Speaker 2: I learned this a long time ago. Is that because
Speaker 2: I'm not very good at resting, and I'm an active relaxa.
Speaker 2: So my version of that would be, you know, going
Speaker 2: out for three hours and walking or running somewhere. But
Speaker 2: rest doesn't come. People, it doesn't come. You need to
Speaker 2: schedule it.
Speaker 1: You do, and you shouldn't feel guilty about it. And
Speaker 1: I'm an active relexa too, but I couldn't. You know,
Speaker 1: even social stuff now is quite difficult for me, and
Speaker 1: I'm a really social person. So I'm just getting back
Speaker 1: and try it. Well, I will in two point one
Speaker 1: weeks get back into that it's really interesting. Phone calls
Speaker 1: I find really difficult. So here with you guys, and
Speaker 1: I can see you, but the effort with a phone
Speaker 1: call of trying to understand what their meaning is, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't get those non verbal cues because my energy
Speaker 1: level is so depleted. It's too much. So I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel kind of weird talking about myself. And I'm
Speaker 1: not complaining or going woll as me, but I just
Speaker 1: do think it's important for anyone listening that it's taken seriously,
Speaker 1: because if you don't get on top of it, you'll
Speaker 1: end up like me. It's still recovering after three years.
Speaker 3: We can't thank you enough for not only the work
Speaker 3: you do and talking to us today about you know,
Speaker 3: ADHD and perimenopause, but for sharing your stories, because I
Speaker 3: think that's that's the hard of it, right, there's just
Speaker 3: this you're so genuine about diving into this and exploring it,
Speaker 3: and as you say, you've your mind's been blown open
Speaker 3: by it all and everything, and so is ours. So
Speaker 3: we just we can't thank you enough, Sonya. And look
Speaker 3: we're and we will be thinking of you in two
Speaker 3: weeks and one day. Yeah, sorry, we've edited to your load.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I want to do this. It's I
Speaker 1: love talking about it. But yeah, I'll be fine. I'll
Speaker 1: be fine. I've built things in but I do want
Speaker 1: people to know that I and people say you've got
Speaker 1: to take care of yourself, Well, what does that mean?
Speaker 3: Easier said than life balance? If someone else tells you
Speaker 3: to get life balance and you're just sitting there overloaded with.
Speaker 2: You that's kind of why we started this in the
Speaker 2: first place. We were sick of the the messages that
Speaker 2: were being aimed at midlife women. And you should never
Speaker 2: apologize for talking about yourself because we got you here
Speaker 2: to talk about yourself.
Speaker 3: Very good point, Louise, It's what I wanted to hear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3: So one of the really interesting things about this podcast
Speaker 3: is that will be finished it I'll produce. Actually admitted
Speaker 3: she thinks she's wearing Holy Undis too, so just by
Speaker 3: the bye that was, isn't just us? It's not just us?
Speaker 2: That's okay. We should have asked Sonya, Sonya looked too
Speaker 2: well presented today to be wearing Holy Unday. Sorry Sonya.
Speaker 3: Anyway, back to Sonyah, how amazing is she?
Speaker 2: She's a vehicle for this that we didn't even know
Speaker 2: we needed.
Speaker 3: No no, and I there were so many little gems
Speaker 3: in that conversation. Obviously, I'm going to go home and
Speaker 3: seduce to people that I do less of the fleas
Speaker 3: of life. I thought that was such a great expression
Speaker 3: just for all those little things that we find ourselves
Speaker 3: hard to motivate ourselves to do time and time again.
Speaker 3: But I you know, she's full of information, but I
Speaker 3: think it's her personal story which really resonates with people
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: And also just because she has done such a deep
Speaker 2: dive to understand it, and you know, obviously her her
Speaker 2: interest based nervous system took her this in this direction,
Speaker 2: which we should all be extraordinarily grateful for. I just
Speaker 2: thought it was fantastic just understanding the science. I think
Speaker 2: a bit more about it, about that particular collision of
Speaker 2: ADHD and perimenopause, just regulated dopamine and all of those things.
Speaker 2: I just found, Yeah, I found it quite revitting and
Speaker 2: quite emotional. I felt quite emotional through that that one
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: If you would like to know more, Sonya's podcast is
Speaker 3: No such Thing as Normal Season three is available now.
Speaker 3: Listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so
Speaker 3: much for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series,
Speaker 3: The Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with
Speaker 3: the women in your life, so that women don't feel
Speaker 3: so alone during this challenging time, and that we can
Speaker 3: understand the different experiences we're all going through.
Speaker 2: You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on
Speaker 2: other topics here to NZ Herald dot co dot nz
Speaker 2: and we'll catch
Speaker 3: You next time on The Little Things