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Speaker 1: Back to the reform that was announced yesterday. We've done

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Speaker 1: the early childhood. Now let's get onto the work rules.

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Speaker 1: Our Holidays Act is getting a once over, a couple

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Speaker 1: of big changes coming pro rate a sickly been switching

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Speaker 1: from an entitlement system to an accrual system. An annual

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Speaker 1: leave draft bill is going to be up for consultation

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Speaker 1: in September. Ellen McDonald of the Employers Manufacturer's Association with

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Speaker 1: us along with Jared Hare, who is with the Labor Workers' Union. Gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: very good morning to you. Good morning Allen. Overdue and

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Speaker 1: can it be tidied up? And tidied up?

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Speaker 2: Well, well, we live in hope, Mike. It's been successive

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Speaker 2: governments that have promised to have a crack at this,

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Speaker 2: and successive governments haven't got there. So we're really looking

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Speaker 2: forward to making it a much simpler system, easier for employers.

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Speaker 2: Means also that employees get paid, which is very important

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Speaker 2: because a lot of them are still waiting on back pay.

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Speaker 2: And let's crack on with it.

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Speaker 1: Is sick or annual the problem or both?

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Speaker 2: It's both and from our point of view anyways, So

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Speaker 2: first of all, with the holiday pay, the existing Act

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Speaker 2: is hugely complex. There are some massive provisions for back pay,

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Speaker 2: particularly in government departments, but also amongst employers. So I

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Speaker 2: think you're looking two point two billion for the health sector,

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Speaker 2: one point two et cetera for education and so on

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Speaker 2: and so on.

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Speaker 1: Okay, can it be tidied up in your view? Because

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Speaker 1: having had a crack, no one's got there. Why is

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Speaker 1: there some miracle required or with just a bit of attitude.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a bit of a holy grail in this

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Speaker 2: and that's the single calculation to do holiday pay. And

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Speaker 2: that's why we favor the cruel system. So if your

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Speaker 2: work ex you get why. It's simple straightforward. Employees know

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Speaker 2: what they're getting, they get it from day one instead

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Speaker 2: of having to wait twelve months, and employers can simply

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Speaker 2: do the calculation and get it right now.

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Speaker 1: Jared, where are you at in terms of is it

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Speaker 1: a mess and doesn't need changing? And if it does

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Speaker 1: need changing, what would you do?

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Speaker 3: Well, there does need to be some tweeting, but let's

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Speaker 3: be clear. The sickly changes are simply a reduction in

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Speaker 3: entitlement and they're going to affect I mean, it's just

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Speaker 3: going to be transferred from workers to employers, and that's

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Speaker 3: going to affect you know a lot of people forty

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Speaker 3: percent over forty percent of workers actually work part time.

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Speaker 3: If you take part time with less than forty hours,

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Speaker 3: we don't know what the calculation. That's the problem. That's

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Speaker 3: why it is complex sometimes because people don't work nine

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Speaker 3: to five forty hours a week anymore. Overall, picture's working

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Speaker 3: lines are complicated. That's why the rules have to be

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Speaker 3: complicated as well. Women will be absolutely affected. Fifty eight

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Speaker 3: percent of woman work less than forty hours, so you

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Speaker 3: know this is going to have a huge impact and

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Speaker 3: on the sickly. Sixty percent of the workers who work

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Speaker 3: part time work in four areas retail, hospitality, education, and healthcare.

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Speaker 3: Now those are the four areas where you get more

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Speaker 3: likely to catch something you get at work. There's a

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Speaker 3: good reason and woman. The reason why way woman is

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Speaker 3: because they are still in the twenty first centrally unfortunately

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Speaker 3: more likely to end up having to take sickly to

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Speaker 3: look after the strong women.

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Speaker 1: So it's part of the ideological because I think it

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Speaker 1: was your example, al and the person who works a

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Speaker 1: day a week that's forty eight days a year and

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Speaker 1: they get ten days sickly. That's heavy. So ideologically, the

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Speaker 1: union would argue, that's fair enough, that's life. You guys

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Speaker 1: would argue, no, it's not.

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Speaker 2: Well if you go back to when the ten days

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Speaker 2: sick leave for part time workers came in, we're posted

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Speaker 2: at the time for this reason, if you work ten

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Speaker 2: twenty hours, you get the same amount of sick pay

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Speaker 2: as somebody who works forty hours a week. Now, if

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Speaker 2: you look at that from the flip side of that,

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Speaker 2: that means the person or the people working forty hours

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Speaker 2: a week and then carrying the burden of those people

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Speaker 2: that are off. And I'm not sure where it gets

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Speaker 2: a transfer from. You know, you accrue the leaves as

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Speaker 2: you go along, so we're not saying take away to sickly.

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Speaker 2: It's just a proturate to the hours that you work.

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Speaker 2: So and also you're coming from the point of view

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Speaker 2: that employers are trying to exploit these part time people,

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Speaker 2: take advantage of them, or however you want to look

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Speaker 2: at it, have a conversation with your employer. They're reasonable people,

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Speaker 2: they like keeping their start.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, the consultation side of it, though, Jared, when it

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Speaker 1: comes out in September, is the consultation from your point

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Speaker 1: of view, or the government's worked out what they want

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Speaker 1: to do and they'll do it anyway.

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Speaker 3: Well, they seem to be pretty clear. The devil is

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Speaker 3: always be in the detail. It says what's thickly, what's

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Speaker 3: to find this part time on the leave, But in

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Speaker 3: terms of the end you'll leave, it's pretty clear they

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Speaker 3: go to any crual system. And actually we know what

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Speaker 3: that looks like because my union other unions been fighting

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Speaker 3: for eight years now to get the billions owed by

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Speaker 3: workers who are who weren't paid properly. And let me

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Speaker 3: give the example of what moving to it a cruel

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Speaker 3: system will be, because oh it's about simplicity, but it's

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Speaker 3: complex for a very good reason to make sure workers

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Speaker 3: get leave that they need. So if I start the

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Speaker 3: year working twenty hours, and then in January and I

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Speaker 3: move up to a forty hour job, I work hard

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Speaker 3: and I get some more hours. That's great, regular hours

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Speaker 3: to forty in June. And then it comes to December

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Speaker 3: and I go, I say, what a week's leave. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 3: under the current law, I get forty hours because I'm

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Speaker 3: working forty hours, and I go, I leave and at

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Speaker 3: the same pay under the cruel system. I get thirty

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Speaker 3: hours because you do twenty thirty hours. Yes, exactly, I

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Speaker 3: actually move twenty five percent. Okay, that's what a cruel

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Speaker 3: system means.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I understand what a cruel is. I get it.

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Speaker 1: All right. Well, let's wait until September and see what

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Speaker 1: they come up with and see where we go. So

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Speaker 1: sick and annual leaves needlessly complex? Am I just sitting

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Speaker 1: here thinking this is needlessly complex? Or does that just me?

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Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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