1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: likely to pass a law banning farm to forest conversions 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 2: to protect productive farmland for food production. It'll mean a 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: restriction on planting forests on high quality land and it's 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 2: a response to the previous government's emissions reduction plan. Agriculture 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 2: Minister Todd McLay has emphasized the need to protect productive farmland, 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: maintain food security and ensure that forestry expansion doesn't come 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: at the expense of agriculture and rural livelihoods. But have 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: we placed too much importance on planting trees anyway? And 12 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: should we be focusing on other efforts elsewhere? Today on 13 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: the front page of Canterbury Emeritus Professor David Norton is 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: with us to break down what this all actually means 15 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: and whether we'll be able to meet our ambitious climate targets. 16 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: First off, David, can you tell us what farm to 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: forest conversions actually are? 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 3: Yep. But it's a good question because it's often quite 19 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 3: confusing and essentially a company that could be a New 20 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 3: Zealand company, it could be an overseas company purchases a farm, 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 3: typically a sheet and beef farm, and they plant the 22 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 3: whole farm up in fast growing exotic trees, usually pineous radiata, 23 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: for carbon sequestration purposes. 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: And so what is carbon farming? Is that the planting 25 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: of the pine to offset carbon emissions. 26 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not to offset carbon emission. So carbon farming 27 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 3: is basically the process of planting up a farm in 28 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 3: fast growing exotic trees with the objective to seque to 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 3: carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and to earn money 30 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 3: from doing that. And yeah, it is called offsetting because 31 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 3: somebody who is producing emissions, a company that's using petrol, diesel, whatever, 32 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 3: can then buy those credits to offset their emissions. 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 2: So what's the main evidence for the government wanting to 34 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: restrict farm to forestry conversions. 35 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the reason why they brought the restrictions in 36 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 3: is because of concerns within the farming sector that good 37 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: quality farmland was being taken out of farming and put 38 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 3: into carbon forests. The difficulty with carbon forests is that 39 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: they are a permanent land used they have to be 40 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: there forever, because once you've drawn that carbon down from 41 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 3: the atmosphere, it needs to stay in those trees and perpetuity, 42 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 3: so it rules out any opportunity to go back into 43 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 3: farming on that land again. So I think the biggest 44 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 3: concern that drove this change was that desire to restrict 45 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 3: that that sort of locking up a potential farmland for 46 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: the future. In the proposal, it restricts it that you 47 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: can't do it on land News classes one to five, 48 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: and there's a limit on land News Class six as well. 49 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: Well. That leads me on to my next question, Actually, 50 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: how do we determine what is high, medium and low 51 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: quality land? 52 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a national system that ranks all land 53 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 3: in New Zealand on its productivity essentially, and so the 54 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 3: most productive land would be land that's used to say cereal, 55 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 3: you know, wheat growing and other crops horticulture, right through 56 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: to the least productive land, which would be land that is, 57 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: you know, might only graze one or two stock units 58 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: per hecta. That's very very low productivity. And so the 59 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: idea of the regulations was to limit the conversion of 60 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 3: high quality or highly productive farmland to pine trees and 61 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: restrict that largely at lower productivity hill country, steeper hill 62 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: country farmland. 63 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: That doesn't do anything to alleviate the fears of beef 64 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: and sheep far as though, does it. 65 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: It shifts it more to the least productive end of 66 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 3: the spectrum. So the better downlands lower hill country lands 67 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 3: has certainly got much more restrictions on it. Yes, so 68 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 3: it does alleviate it to some degree, but there is 69 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 3: still a lot of concern in the farming community. I understand. 70 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I saw in October last year, we saw 71 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: the closure of alliance groups meat processing plant and Timoru, 72 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: affecting about six hundred jobs, and fed farmers at that 73 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: time pointed to land use changes, including the conversions to forestry, 74 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: as a contributing factor. Obviously the forestry industry disputed this. 75 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 2: But in a situation like this, do the environmental gains 76 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: outweigh I guess the jobs in rural communities. 77 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 3: From my perspective anomen ecologist, that there are no environmental 78 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 3: gains in doing this. I actually think carbon farming is 79 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: a flawed process. It's basically a small group of people 80 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 3: trying to make a lot of money in a short 81 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 3: period of time with zero consideration for the future. 82 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, because you've made a good point before, as well, 83 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 2: to my understand my very basic understanding is that when 84 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 2: you come in and plant these pine forests, it's like 85 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 2: one hundred year commitment. You have to be doing it consistently, 86 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: cutting them down regrowing for it to be any good. 87 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: Right, Okay, Two, there's really good question, and there's two 88 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 3: important points in there. A lot of these farm to 89 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: forest conversions are not being managed for sustainable timber supply. 90 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 3: They're simply being planted for carbon and then basically the 91 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 3: owners walk away and leave them. That's very different from 92 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 3: a production plantation forest that's been managed on sustainable rotation 93 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: to produce timber every thirty twenty five thirty years on 94 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 3: an ongoing basis. So most of these farm to forest 95 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: conversions are simply being planted up. They sequest a carbon 96 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 3: for twenty thirty forty years, and then they have to 97 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: be in the ground because that carbon has been sequested. 98 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 3: They're not being managed into the future, and they impose 99 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 3: massive economic and environmental liabilities on us as we move 100 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: into future generations. 101 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 2: Why aren't they planting native species? Why is it always 102 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: pine and exotic species. 103 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 3: That's a great question, and the reason is that the 104 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 3: whole emissions trading scheme that this is all working through 105 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 3: is set up to make pines the favored outcome, and 106 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 3: the incentives are all completely twisted and counter against native forests. 107 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: And I mean, I think it's really important to recognize 108 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 3: that people are getting rich, making a lot of money, 109 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: getting rich over a short period of time from carbon credits. 110 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 3: They get their credits and they can forget about that forest. 111 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 3: But someone's got to make sure that carbon stays in 112 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 3: the ground in the future. And if the investors are 113 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 3: taking their money and gone, then it's going to be 114 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 3: future generations in New Zealand that are responsible for looking 115 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 3: after that carbon that's been stored there, because it's supposed 116 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 3: to be storedly. But at the same time, we know 117 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: that these pine forests are not adapted to the New 118 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: Zealand environment. They won't maintain themselves, they will collapse, They 119 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 3: will be sources of diseases, of dare of pa species. 120 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: And you know, we saw what happened in cyclone Gabriel, 121 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 3: We saw what happened to Nelson Tasman a few weeks ago. 122 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 3: You know, these forests are imposing massive environmental liabilities on us. 123 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: And what we need is we need diverse native forests 124 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 3: established across the landscape into woven into farming systems, not 125 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: replacing farming, but into woven's farming systems. Unfortunately, the ETS 126 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: is stacked against that. It just doesn't make it possible 127 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 3: at the moment. This is what the Parliamentary Commissioner for 128 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: the Environment said and his report recently. You know, the 129 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: whole system is wrong. It's set up against natives. 130 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 4: So what you're saying is we are going to have 131 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 4: higher emissions leading up to twenty thirty because of your 132 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 4: governments policies. 133 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: We're going to have that accurate? 134 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: Nor what is that? 135 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 4: Is that accurate? What is that is that accurate? Will 136 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 4: New Zealand have higher emissions than we would have under 137 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 4: the previous government? Under your government in the period leading 138 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 4: to twenty thirty? 139 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 3: What is accurate? 140 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 5: It is to say that the missions profile, the plan 141 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 5: that we have put in place will enable us to 142 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 5: meet our budgets for the period ending to it. 143 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 4: It's not the question I asked though, But the question 144 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 4: I asked is under your government's policies, will our emissions 145 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 4: leading up to twenty thirty be higher than they would 146 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 4: under the previous government. 147 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 5: Technically, in the region of about one point five mega 148 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 5: tons of point of difference by the end, So thirty. 149 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: Does our emissions reduction plan rely too heavily on forestry. 150 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely. What we're doing is we're basically saying, keep producing emissions, 151 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 3: you can offset them. But actually what we need to 152 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 3: be doing is cutting our emissions, and the emissions reduction 153 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 3: plan isn't doing that, is just relying on fast growing 154 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 3: trees to push the problem out into the future, not 155 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: addressing the missions reductions at all. 156 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: So the coalition brought in the removal of agriculture from 157 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 2: the ETS, and that was welcomed by farmers, criticized by environmentalists. 158 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: What do you make of this move? 159 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think what we need is we 160 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 3: need to separate out methane, which is what livestock are 161 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 3: producing from all the other all Carton dixide, which is 162 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: from petrol and diesel and all that stuff. And I 163 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 3: think we need to have a separate biogenic system where 164 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 3: farmers can offset their own emissions in their livestock on farm. 165 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 3: Methane behaves very differently to CO two and that should 166 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 3: be done in one system, and then there should be 167 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 3: a separate system that is focused on reducing our overall 168 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: CO two emissions from hydrocarbons, and the two should be 169 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 3: separated out and dealt with quite separately. 170 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: What alternatives are there and it should we be focusing 171 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: on more? 172 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what we should be doing in New 173 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 3: Zealand from my perspective is quite simply. We should have 174 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: a standalone biogenic methane system for farmers and they can 175 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 3: plant woodlots on their farmers, they can use native vegetation 176 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: to offset their methane productions. We need to have genuine 177 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: tools in place that guarantee we reduce emissions. We're not 178 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 3: reducing emissions. We've got to bring our emissions down less 179 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 3: fossil fuels, and we need to be building landscape resilience, 180 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 3: and that by building landscape resilience, by planting diverse native forests, 181 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 3: by establishing more native wetlands, we can sequest a draw 182 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 3: carbon down from the atmosphere. But we can also make 183 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: sure that we don't get the damage we've got in 184 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 3: cyclone Gabriel and damage we've got in Nelson and other 185 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 3: parts of New Zealand. I'm involved with a project called 186 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 3: rec Cloak and papatuar Nuku which pure advantage are not 187 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: for profit has been developing which is aiming to restore 188 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 3: two million hectas of native forest and wetland across New Zealand, 189 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 3: interwoven into our primary production landscapes and not replacing farming, 190 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 3: but part of farming. Are rewarded for looking after native 191 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 3: forests and establishing new native forests for all of those benefits, 192 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 3: you know, cultural biodiversity, resilience, carbon draw down and so forth. 193 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: Well that kind of sounds like a win win, doesn't it. 194 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: Why aren't we making So if I was a dairy farmer, say, 195 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: is there a way that so I've got my fifty cows? 196 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: Say I obviously have never visited a dairy farm, so 197 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: I don't know how many cows there are, But say 198 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: I've got fifty, probably. 199 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 3: A few more than fifty. 200 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: Can I then measure how much methane that they're producing 201 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 2: and then be like, right, it's this much. I need 202 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: to come up with a way to offset that on 203 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 2: my land, say with native forests and stuff, and then 204 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: kind of try and balance it out myself. Could I 205 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: essentially do that? 206 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely? Look, the science is very very easy to use. 207 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 3: I mean, we know how much methanea cow producers, so 208 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 3: you could do that definitely, and I must say some 209 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 3: of the innovative dairy farmers are actually putting that information 210 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 3: out there in the public. They are acknowledging how much 211 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 3: they produce them. You can do the math, and you 212 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 3: may not be able to do it on your land 213 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 3: because your dairy farm might be too small, but you 214 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 3: could work with says sheet and beef farmer and you 215 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: could do it in a collaborative way. 216 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: Why don't we make farmers do that? 217 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 3: Then it's a good question. The politics. Yeah, I don't 218 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 3: have the answer to that one. 219 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: I wouldn't mind my tax money going, you know, giving 220 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,239 Speaker 2: a few bob to farmers to create native farmlands. 221 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, I mean, I think there 222 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: are lots of avenues that we could fund it through. 223 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 3: I mean, there's a lot of interest internationally in high 224 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 3: quality carbon and biodiversity credits, So people would be really interested, 225 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 3: I think in investing in New Zealand. We're a stable democracy, 226 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 3: We're a reliable country for that sort of work. But 227 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 3: farmers themselves, I mean, you know, they will at some 228 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: point need to offset their methane production so that the 229 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 3: incentive is for them to invest into their own land. 230 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 3: But it's building resilience in their land, and it's helping 231 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 3: make their land more stable. It's got other benefits out 232 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: of it. I work with farmers dairy and she can 233 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: be farmers helping them designeration programs for their farms so 234 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: they can bring back native forest. I mean, there are 235 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 3: really great people out there doing this already. We just 236 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 3: need the national policy signals of a place to make 237 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 3: this reality. And I think for that we need to 238 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 3: acknowledge that we are being impacted by climate change. We 239 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 3: need to acknowledge that we need to have a national 240 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: resilience plan, of which, you know, putting native forests back 241 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: into landscapes as part of farming systems is a really 242 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: sustainable long term outcome. Pine trees a short term They're 243 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 3: not doing anything for the future. Native forest, native wetlands 244 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: are bringing all these other values and bi diversity who 245 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 3: we are as New Zealanders, you know, all these other 246 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 3: values back into our landscapes. 247 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: Of the two hundred odd countries in the world today, 248 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: it looks like we are the only one it's carbon neutral. 249 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: Actually that's not quite accurate. Batone is not carbon neutral. 250 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: We're doone is carbon negative. Our entire country generates two 251 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: point two million tons of carbon dioxide, but a forest, 252 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: they see question more than three times at amount. So 253 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: we are a net carbon zinc for more than four 254 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: million tons of carbon dioxide each year. 255 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: What about if we look overseas, are there any other 256 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: countries that are focusing you know, not as much on forestry, 257 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: I suppose, but are there any good projects that we 258 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: should be really keeping an eye on. 259 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 3: There's a range of different initiatives being taken in different 260 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 3: countries and different ways of incentidvising and encouraging people to 261 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 3: get involved in these sorts of projects. But I actually 262 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 3: believe that New Zealand has the opportunity to show other countries. 263 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 3: So turning it around, we have the opportunity to show 264 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 3: other countries how we can do this sort of stuff. 265 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: We're a small country, we're innovative. We just need to 266 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: get out of this mindset at the moment of just 267 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 3: focusing on today and actually think about the future. And 268 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 3: we've got huge credibility, scientific background in this stuff. We 269 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 3: know how to do it. We just need the political 270 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 3: will behind that to support it. 271 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: Do you think farming and forestry voices are equally represented? 272 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 3: It's interesting, you know, I hate to think what's going 273 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 3: on behind the closed doors in Wellington and who's influencing what. 274 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 3: What's not being represented is the voice of the environment, 275 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 3: and that's my real concern is that the environment has 276 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 3: not been listened to. I think I work with a 277 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: lot of farmers, and my impression is that farmers are 278 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 3: really interested in looking after the land, are really interested 279 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 3: in a sustainable outcome. They get the impact that climate 280 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 3: change has on their businesses on their land, and they're 281 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: in it for the long term. Farmers are in it 282 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 3: for the long term, and I think we just need 283 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 3: to have the right incentives there to help a system 284 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 3: with even those sorts of outcomes that I've talked about. 285 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 2: I mean, the Climate Change Commission last month warned that 286 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: while we're making progress and emissions are on track to 287 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: meet the first budget that's twenty twenty two to twenty 288 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: twenty five, we still need to urgently do more work. 289 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: At the rate we're going. Do you think that we're 290 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: going to meet our Paris climate commitments? 291 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 3: No? No, from everything I've seen, we're not. We're still 292 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: consuming too much, We're still using too much, We're still 293 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: we're still living in today. We're not thinking about tomorrow, 294 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: and I think we're struggling, and I think relying on 295 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: offsetting with short lived pine trees is just a massive mistake. 296 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 3: It's just pushing the problem off. 297 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 2: Has this latest move set us back a bit? 298 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 3: I think it's just simply carrying us down a I 299 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: think a Dedan street, and I think we need to, 300 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 3: like Simon Upton said the Parliamentary Commission of the Environment said, 301 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 3: we need to radically overhaul the ets. We need to 302 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: shift fast growing exotics into the BID methane system, and 303 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 3: we need to start putting in place an approach that's 304 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 3: based around using native forest of long term enduring carbon 305 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 3: sequestration is going to be there forever of all of 306 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: the other benefits for the landscape, for people, for bid diversity, 307 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 3: But the government doesn't seem to be interested in that. 308 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 3: And that's a real tragedy, I think, because the people 309 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: that are going to suffer are going to be the 310 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 3: next generation and the one after that and so on. 311 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, David, You're welcome, Thanks for inviting me. 312 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 313 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 314 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 315 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also 316 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 317 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 318 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.