1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:01,640 Speaker 1: Brian Bridge. 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 2: The Doomsday clock has ever closer to midnight than ever before. 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: The atomic scientists that set the clock have set it 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: now at eighty nine seconds to midnight. Symbolic it shows 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: us how close that humanity has come to the end 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: of the world. Jack Heyneman is a professor of genetics 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 2: at the University of Canterbury. He's with me tonight, Hijack. 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: Hello, it's good to be here. 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 2: Do I take this seriously? 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: Well, I think you should. I mean, the atomic scientists 11 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,959 Speaker 1: have been publishing on the Clock for since the late 12 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, and while we're still here, they have given 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: us an indication of the kind of stresses on our 14 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: planet and on our society that are leading us ever 15 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: closer to our own destruction. 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: Don't they. I mean, because it's been around since the 17 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: ninety forties, don't they have to move it every year 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 2: just to justify being there. 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that they can they can earn a living. Yeah. No, 20 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: it hasn't always moved closer to midnight. There have been 21 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: times when it's moved further away from midnight. There have 22 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: been good news stories like the fall of the Soviet 23 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: Union moved the clock backwards. It reduced tensions for nuclear warfare, 24 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: So it doesn't always go in one direction, which you 25 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: might expect if they were trying to raise subscription rates. 26 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 2: Why why is it Why is it bumped to eighty 27 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 2: nine then from ninety last year? I mean, what's what's 28 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 2: so precarious about the world right now that that you 29 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: know didn't I mean, we had the war with Ukraine, 30 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: we had Russia's aggression, we had the Gaza War going 31 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 2: on the Middle East. If anything, what's happened in the 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: Middle East in the last little while, particularly with the 33 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: with Iran's weakness, you could argue you might have put 34 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: that to bed a little bit more. 35 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: It's it's a very difficult, difficult equation, and it's not 36 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: just one or two events that they factor in. It's 37 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: across the board. So yes, it's only one second change, 38 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: but in part it tells us that things haven't improved. 39 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: Nothing has gotten better in Ukraine and really nothing is 40 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: a lot better in Gaza. At the same time, in 41 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: both of those theaters of conflict, there have been discussions 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: about introducing weapons of mass discussion destruction, such as nuclear weapons. 43 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: That has increased tensions in many different parts of the world. 44 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: On top of that, we're still looking at really no 45 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: substantial progress on controlling carbon and climate change. So we 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: continue to put pressure on societies and infrastructure the environment 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: in ways that get us to a tipping point. But 48 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: I think what they've drawn particular attention to this year 49 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: is the uncontrolled possibility of further disruption to our biological ecosystems, 50 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,119 Speaker 1: not just through the spontaneous occurrence of a new kind 51 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: of pathogen that's still a possibility, but also because we 52 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: are developing very rapidly our use of gene technologies and 53 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: creating ever more opportunity for both accidental and nefarious use 54 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: of life in either warfare or release into the environment 55 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: through I suppose good intentions that go bad. 56 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: So we got like something in a lab some lab, 57 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: and I don't know, China or maybe America, whatever, something 58 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: leaks and we all get wiped out. They're taking that 59 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: into account here too. 60 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: That's one scenario. The other scenario is that, just like 61 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: New Zealand is discussing right now, we deregulate the use 62 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: of gene technologies so that they can be used outside 63 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: of the lab by more people, fewer people trained, and 64 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: more organisms exposed to the gene technology leading to ever 65 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: more complicated mixtures of organisms that might already be released 66 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: rather than in a laboratory and then escape. 67 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: It's a grab bag of of horrible things that could 68 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: happen to planet Earth. What happens when the clock hits midnight? 69 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I suppose we won't be here if it 70 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: actually hits midnight. That's just something you won't know about 71 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: the You know, the clock can cause people to disengage 72 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: and and to be depressed about circumstances. But I would 73 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: hope people would look at it another way. It's also 74 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: telling us that we have a pathway back. We have 75 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: we have clear indicators of where we should put our 76 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: priorities to help heal the earth and make it make 77 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: the Earth again a much more welcoming place to sustain 78 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: human life. 79 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: Tick tick tick Jack tick tick yep, thanks so much 80 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: for being with me. That is Jack Heineman. He's a 81 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 2: professor of genetics at the University of Canterbury talking about 82 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: the doomsday clock. 83 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 84 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 85 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.