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Speaker 1: Gilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

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Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Thirteen

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Speaker 1: US climbed atop a youth justice facility in South Auckland

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Speaker 1: on Monday night, demanding fast food, cigarettes and to getaway car.

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Speaker 1: The group made it to the top of the Cotdawai

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Speaker 1: Monarchy facility and witty just after six point thirty that night.

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Speaker 1: By nine am the next day, just four remained. They

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Speaker 1: came down just before noon. It's reminiscent of an incident

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Speaker 1: at the same facility last year, when groups of young

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Speaker 1: people climbed onto the roof. A month later, a trio

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Speaker 1: of teens did it again, and in June another group

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Speaker 1: staged a rooftop stand off at a facility near christ Church.

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Speaker 1: But who exactly are these unruly youths and are we

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Speaker 1: doing the best we can to care for them? Today?

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Speaker 1: On the Front Page, youth worker and founder of Kickback

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Speaker 1: Youth Development, Aaron Hendry joins us to discuss these incidents

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Speaker 1: and the kids behind them. Aaron, this isn't the first

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Speaker 1: time an incident like this has happened. Are these displays

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Speaker 1: I suppose against authority? Are they a cry for help

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Speaker 1: or an act of rebellion, a mix of both, or

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Speaker 1: something else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when we have this conversation that we

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Speaker 2: first center and take a step back and understand who

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Speaker 2: these children are that are in these residential facilities. You know,

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Speaker 2: these are young people that they're honesty is they've experienced

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Speaker 2: some of the worst that New Zealand society has to offer.

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Speaker 2: You know, often they were victims first before they've gone

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Speaker 2: on to cause harm in the community. They've been so

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Speaker 2: that it could be harmed mentally, emotionally. They have been

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Speaker 2: let down by us as a community. Often they have

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Speaker 2: experienced poverty, homelessness. You know, some will have disabilities and

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Speaker 2: severe mental health needs, and we'll have experienced some really

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Speaker 2: significant trauma.

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Speaker 3: You know. The evidence backs that up.

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Speaker 2: And we look kind of globally around the world, you know,

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Speaker 2: where we see young people coming into confidence to the

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Speaker 2: law and then kind of being funneled into these systems.

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Speaker 2: These are the driving factors, the reasons behind that offending

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Speaker 2: in the first place, and so it's really important to

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Speaker 2: understand that.

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Speaker 3: And then when we see.

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Speaker 2: Behavior like this, it's really easy to look at a

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Speaker 2: picture or see an image and think, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're just acting out, but there's a reason why they

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Speaker 2: are up on that road for in that situation, and

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Speaker 2: often it's coming from a space of the trauma and

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Speaker 2: pain and a young person or a child that's not

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Speaker 2: being hurt and doesn't feel like they're getting their most

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Speaker 2: basic needs met.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's what we have to remember

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Speaker 1: as well with these kind of situations. Hey, that these

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Speaker 1: kids society's most neglected. Can you tell me a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about these kids and what kind of lives

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Speaker 1: they may have led.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean when we look at the data and the

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Speaker 2: research around young people that end up in these sort

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Speaker 2: of facilities, you know, some of them have slipped through

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Speaker 2: since they were young. You know, there's home hasn't been

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Speaker 2: safe and so they've ended up sleeping on our streets.

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Speaker 2: Think about how unsafe you must have to be or

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Speaker 2: fear as a child to think that sleeping outside, you know,

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Speaker 2: on busy Queen Street was.

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Speaker 3: A safer option for you.

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Speaker 2: In some cases, you know, they're coming from farno who

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Speaker 2: are really struggling, you know, families that really love their

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Speaker 2: kids and yet are doing impossible things, trying to keep

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Speaker 2: a roof over the heads working you know, multiple jobs

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Speaker 2: and just don't have the time and the resources they

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Speaker 2: need to really care for their young people well. And

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Speaker 2: you know, as a community, we haven't supported them. Some

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Speaker 2: of these young people will have disabilities and will have

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Speaker 2: significant you know, mental health needs and be using substances

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Speaker 2: as a way to cope, and families may be struggling

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Speaker 2: to manage and support that without the resources and the

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Speaker 2: layers of community around them to best look after them

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Speaker 2: and care for them while trying to deal with this

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Speaker 2: you know crisis called poverty and housing and security that

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Speaker 2: many of our fartam are dealing with. The Other thing

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Speaker 2: we know about young people that end up in these

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Speaker 2: facilities is that often the community was a weird that

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Speaker 2: they needed help, They were aware that their families needed help,

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Speaker 2: and as a community, we haven't had the resources to

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Speaker 2: actually come down support them, care for them long before

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Speaker 2: they ever came into conflict with the law and ended

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Speaker 2: up in the justice system. There's a lot that can

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Speaker 2: be said, and there is a lot that is said

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Speaker 2: about our young people, But I think the thing that

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Speaker 2: we need to fundamentally focus on and remember is that

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Speaker 2: these children are here because of our failure as a

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Speaker 2: society and as a country, we have not valued the

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Speaker 2: lives of these young people well enough. We haven't cared

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Speaker 2: for them, we haven't ensured we build societies and communities

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Speaker 2: that can provide them with the resources they need, and

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Speaker 2: as a result, they have entered into these systems. I

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Speaker 2: think that's something that we really need to keep front

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Speaker 2: of mind when we're having a conversation around young people

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Speaker 2: in the justice system.

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Speaker 4: The Children's Minister says thirteen young people who've scaled an

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Speaker 4: Auckland youth facility last night will face consequences. Seven of

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Speaker 4: them stayed overnight on the roof of what is called

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Speaker 4: y monarchy facility and progressively came down today. Minister Karen

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Speaker 4: shawk So staff handled it very well. We're not going

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Speaker 4: to accept this kind of behavior is absolutely unacceptable and

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Speaker 4: criminal liability will happen for the damage that has been

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Speaker 4: done to this youth justice facility.

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Speaker 1: Now, what are the purposes of these youth justice facilities?

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Speaker 1: Who's in charge of running them?

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Speaker 3: Thank you? It really depends on that you decide to

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Speaker 3: kind of handle that question. I guess.

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Speaker 2: I guess on one side, there's a stated goal of

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Speaker 2: wanting to reform and rehabilitate young people.

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Speaker 3: I think we need to have a better.

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Speaker 2: Conversation around how we actually achieve that and how we

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Speaker 2: support young people to thrive. I think when we look

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Speaker 2: at sort of residential model, I think it's outdated and

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Speaker 2: saying we need to kind of move away from. Evidence

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Speaker 2: continues to show that these much larger, sort of residential

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Speaker 2: style projects aren't actually conducive for ensuring healing and support

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Speaker 2: and supporting young people to thrive.

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Speaker 3: If we were to get serious.

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Speaker 2: On what could work for a group of young people

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Speaker 2: that needed the support, we would get a lot more

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Speaker 2: serious about ensuring that there is strong wraparound support in

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Speaker 2: the community, that we're doing intervention early, intervention really really well,

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Speaker 2: really really early, and that we're empowering our communities to thrive.

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Speaker 2: And then for that small, very small group of young

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Speaker 2: people that may need some form of respite, that we

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Speaker 2: would be building very small, localized community respite services for

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Speaker 2: young people that are connected to the local communities, working

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Speaker 2: with EE and working with FARO to ensure that they're

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Speaker 2: getting the support they need.

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Speaker 1: Could this incident and many like it that we've seen,

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Speaker 1: could that be an indication that there's actually something happening

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Speaker 1: behind those closed doors in those residents. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: visited one of these centers?

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Speaker 2: So we've had reports detailing some of the flaws within

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Speaker 2: these systems for decades, and I think there was a

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Speaker 2: very recent report done by Manamchapona and the Children's Commissioner

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Speaker 2: that looked at some of the issues within this residence,

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Speaker 2: in particular challenges around resonal seeing, challenges around staffing, challenges

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Speaker 2: around young people feeling safe, loved, kid or supported and

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Speaker 2: feeling like their needs were getting met and detailed. One

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Speaker 2: of the things I think it's again important for us

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Speaker 2: to think about. The conversation naturally goes to one or

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Speaker 2: two places or both places when this kind of comes

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Speaker 2: up is one, you know, when you get tough on

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Speaker 2: those young people, and two, you know, fingers.

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Speaker 3: Get pointed at on a timidice.

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Speaker 2: What I think is really important to realize is that

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Speaker 2: OT exists within a system, in an ecosystem that enables

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Speaker 2: and sets parameters on what it can and can't do.

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Speaker 2: One of those realities is budgets and what is assigned

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Speaker 2: to support our young people. And also, you know, politically,

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Speaker 2: and this is not national first labor. You know, these

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Speaker 2: residences have been in existence for a very long time

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Speaker 2: and both parties have supported them. So we actually need

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Speaker 2: to start thinking, Okay, well, what is the political realities

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Speaker 2: we need to change if we want to ensure that

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Speaker 2: one we have safer communities where people are thriving and connected,

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Speaker 2: and to we actually support young people to heal and thrive.

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Speaker 2: And one of those things looks at ensuring that actually

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Speaker 2: we're getting the resources to our communities and to our

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Speaker 2: various ministries. However, overstarted responsibility over our care so that

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Speaker 2: they can be getting the support they need to really

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Speaker 2: care for their young people.

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Speaker 3: Well, and you.

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Speaker 2: Can't do that in a residential facility that doesn't have

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Speaker 2: maybe appropriate staffing levels and it has not got full

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Speaker 2: access to all the wraparound support that is really needed

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Speaker 2: for those young people.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever visited one of these centers though, or

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Speaker 1: have you heard anything on the ground about what these

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Speaker 1: places are actually like for these kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been to a couple of different periods of

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Speaker 2: time over the years.

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Speaker 3: For some young people, it's their reality.

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Speaker 2: Like I've spoken to young people in the past too,

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Speaker 2: they've been in and out of residences, their whole lives

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Speaker 2: outside of residents, you know, there's no stability, there's no home.

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Speaker 3: You never know what you're going to eat, you know

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Speaker 3: where you're.

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Speaker 2: Going to sleep within the residence, and this dis stability.

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Speaker 2: But we're not setting them up for the next step,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're not sitting up for when you come

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Speaker 2: out of the space, for how were we going.

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Speaker 3: To deal with the reasons why you're here in the

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Speaker 3: first place.

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Speaker 2: And I think that kind of again gets to the

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Speaker 2: core of this conversation around tough on crime. You know,

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Speaker 2: so tough on crime is really just going hard on failure.

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Speaker 2: It is choosing to continue to do what we have

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Speaker 2: always done, push for punishment and more punitive measures, rather

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Speaker 2: than really responding to why these young people are here.

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Speaker 3: In the first place.

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Speaker 2: And if we take that lens and we step back,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you speak to young people outside of

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Speaker 2: the height and state, when you speak to.

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Speaker 3: Young people around why are you here? You know what's

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Speaker 3: going on for you?

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Speaker 2: They will tell you a story of trauma and abuse

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Speaker 2: and neglect and harm that would make you weep. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've sat with young people who have done some really

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Speaker 2: really harmful things, and they've hurt people, and they have wept,

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Speaker 2: you know, moments after that has happened and shared like why.

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Speaker 3: Did I do that?

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Speaker 2: You know, and you know, from a professional perspective, you

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Speaker 2: can see, Look, this was a heiden state of trauma

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Speaker 2: where you were triggered an unwell and in an environment

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Speaker 2: that most human beings would not manage.

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Speaker 3: On a day to day.

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Speaker 2: I think if it's one thing people can reflect on

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Speaker 2: and I, you know, we might have something rarely traumatic happened,

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Speaker 2: like a car accident or the loss of a loved one,

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Speaker 2: or you know, something significant, and that would be our

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Speaker 2: significant life event for our life. These young people are

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Speaker 2: having significant life events, traumatic events where their lives are

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Speaker 2: in danger, where they're being threatened, where they're being physically harmed,

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Speaker 2: when they're losing loved ones, where they're really going through

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Speaker 2: like just immensely terrible things, and that is happening that

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Speaker 2: like that's their Wednesday, that's just their Thursday, that's just

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Speaker 2: every single day, and they're not having the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: be safe, to heal ones, to recover from that. And

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Speaker 2: that's the context around why these children are here in

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Speaker 2: the first place. It's easy to kind of step back

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Speaker 2: and throw some stones, but we've got to understand that

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, these are kids and

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Speaker 2: they're here because as a society we have failed them.

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Speaker 3: And until you acknowledge that, we're not going to get

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Speaker 3: very far and moving.

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Speaker 1: Forward, people aren't very forgiving of youth chrime in this country.

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Speaker 1: We saw that regularly during the discourse the last two

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Speaker 1: years with ram raids in the life. Do you think

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Speaker 1: young criminals are just miss understood?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess what I want to acknowledge is that

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Speaker 3: there is real harm.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have real empathy for those who have

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Speaker 2: been harmed by a young person, if it's a business

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Speaker 2: owner or if it's someone who's you know, suffered in

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Speaker 2: some way.

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Speaker 3: Like that harm is real. You know, what they've gone

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Speaker 3: through in the trauma with the've experience is also real.

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Speaker 2: But in order to prevent that from continuing, preventing that

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Speaker 2: cycle of violence, we've got to remember where it starts.

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Speaker 3: We've got to step back and recognize what is the

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Speaker 3: context of this. And this is not eerie theory, right.

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Speaker 2: The evidence continues to back this up wherever you look

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Speaker 2: across the world that there's a reason why we consider

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Speaker 2: young people within the justice system as a cure and

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Speaker 2: protection need. Right because the reason why internationally and locally,

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Speaker 2: the reason why young people are coming into these justice systems,

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Speaker 2: coming into the conflict of the law is because there

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Speaker 2: was a really significant unmet need, because they were themselves

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Speaker 2: harmed and because they didn't have the support they needed

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Speaker 2: to be healthy. And that's the context of them then

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Speaker 2: going into the community clausing further harm. And so we

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Speaker 2: can keep getting kind of tough and say, look, we're

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Speaker 2: just going to throw the book at them. But the

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Speaker 2: only ones listening to that tough messaging as other adults

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Speaker 2: who are then saying, yeah, cool, that sounds right.

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Speaker 3: And then it just continues.

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Speaker 2: Cycle of violence because the young people are not listening

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Speaker 2: to the headlines and thinking out here, have changed my behavior.

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Speaker 2: They're operating out of a space of trauma and harm

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Speaker 2: themselves and there's not a lot of pre frontal development

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Speaker 2: mental thinking happening. Fire and emergency police negotiators after five

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Speaker 2: in mat it's been nearly two days.

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Speaker 1: Atop the quarter of white monarchy, youth justice residents.

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Speaker 5: It's never the first thing they say that is the problem.

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Speaker 5: The shows have been turned off, or there's no salt

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Speaker 5: on them, that's nothing to do with it. So with

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Speaker 5: these youth it could be that they're separated from family,

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Speaker 5: that something has happened in their personal life, so it

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Speaker 5: takes a bit of time to get down there, and

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Speaker 5: that is the whole purpose of negotiating is to find

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Speaker 5: out what that is.

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said that this is the first

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Speaker 1: such incident this year as opposed to what he said

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Speaker 1: were fifteen last year. Is there any reason you can

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Speaker 1: point towards four a decrease in these incidents? I'm sure

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Speaker 1: the Prime Minister would point towards a change in government.

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Speaker 2: I think you probably need to talk to intimate a

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Speaker 2: key around operationally if they've done anything, I wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: any knowledge around that.

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Speaker 3: Again, you know that quoted all that you know.

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Speaker 2: We're getting tough on crime and young people are listening

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Speaker 2: and that's changing behavior is not backed up by evidence.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you speak to young people, they're not

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Speaker 2: really paying a lot of attention to that, and it's

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Speaker 2: also doesn't take into context the context.

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Speaker 3: Of their offending and the reason why they're causing harm.

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Speaker 2: Again, I'd point us back to what a young people

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Speaker 2: actually share in terms of what's going on for them,

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Speaker 2: and what is you know, the evidence say in terms

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Speaker 2: of why young people come in conflict.

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Speaker 3: With the justice system.

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Speaker 2: We know from the last time in an incident like

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Speaker 2: this occurred. You know, those young people shared that they

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Speaker 2: were protesting that they didn't feel their voices were being heard,

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Speaker 2: and they felt that this is the only way that

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Speaker 2: they could be heard. And I think as adults in

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Speaker 2: the room, we need to listen to that, We need

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Speaker 2: to pay attention. We need to ask ourselves, why is

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Speaker 2: it that we have a child, a young person who's

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Speaker 2: going to such an extreme to have their voice heard,

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Speaker 2: and you know what preceded this event, to understand what's

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Speaker 2: really going on there, and I'm sure there'll be something

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Speaker 2: underneath that will come out at some point.

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Speaker 1: Luxon was pretty severe in talking about this case as well,

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Speaker 1: saying that they wouldn't be getting KFC, and that's in reference,

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Speaker 1: of course, to similar bargaining tools being used in the past.

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Speaker 1: Comments online from Herald readers equally weren't as forgiving either.

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Speaker 1: Some of them, I have no sympathy and hope they

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Speaker 1: get nothing. They should be punished, leave them up there,

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Speaker 1: they have no rights. What do you, as someone who

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Speaker 1: works directly with these kids, what do you make of

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Speaker 1: these kind of comments?

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Speaker 2: It's really disappointing and I guess heartbreaking when you realize

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Speaker 2: that actually these children have only ever had punishment abuse.

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Speaker 2: They have lived their life under the stick. They have

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Speaker 2: been beaten down constantly. And then when the product of

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Speaker 2: that reality becomes present in our communities and we see

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Speaker 2: our own harm reflected back on us as people get

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Speaker 2: hurt and no things escalate, we then pick up the

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Speaker 2: biggest stick and keep hitting them. There is no pathway

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Speaker 2: forward if a society chooses to exact violence on and

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Speaker 2: revenge on our most vulnerable, and these children are our

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Speaker 2: most vulnerable. They are here because all of us collectively

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Speaker 2: had a duty of care and a responsibility for them,

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Speaker 2: and we failed them.

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Speaker 3: We have to remember that there's a group here that

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Speaker 3: are in the.

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Speaker 2: Cure of otting into Merica, which means they're in the

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Speaker 2: cure of the state, and by extension, all of us,

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Speaker 2: as New Zealand citizens, have a duty of care and

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Speaker 2: a parental responsibility over those children, and they have been failed,

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Speaker 2: and that is why they are in this situation the

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Speaker 2: first place. If we're not willing to acknowledge that, then

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Speaker 2: we're not going to move forward as a society or

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Speaker 2: as a country.

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Speaker 1: Aarin, how do you think we should be handling these

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Speaker 1: kids in these situations?

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Speaker 3: Look, I mean, I.

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Speaker 2: Think the first thing is we need to understand why

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Speaker 2: it's all good from a thousand miles away saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is what's going going on. But we need to

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Speaker 2: sit down with those young people and understand what is

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Speaker 2: going on for you and why has this happened. We

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Speaker 2: also need to take some steps back and look at

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Speaker 2: the pathway that led them to being on that roof

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Speaker 2: and being in that residence in the first place. And

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Speaker 2: you know, the core reasons why young people are in

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Speaker 2: the justice system is because of systemic abuse, poverty, lack

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Speaker 2: of support and resources for themselves in the community, and

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Speaker 2: their far no homelessness, housing and security, you know, significant trauma,

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Speaker 2: and because we haven't resourced our communities to care for them. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot more we can be doing

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Speaker 2: to prevent young people from ever getting to the stage

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Speaker 2: where they are needing to be placed in a residence.

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Speaker 2: There is so much more as a community we could

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Speaker 2: be investing in and supporting to have happened, and we're

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Speaker 2: not doing that yet, and we need to do a

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Speaker 2: lot better.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Aaron. That's it for this episode

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Speaker 1: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's

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Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at zat Herald dot co

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Speaker 1: dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Seles

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Speaker 1: with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to

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Speaker 1: the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.