1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: Kielda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Each year, 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: around forty thousand New Zealanders are disconnected from the power 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: supply for non payment. According to Consumer and Z they 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: are surviving winter in cold, dark homes without access to 6 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: a warm shower or a home cooked meal, sometimes for 7 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: months at a time. It comes at a time when 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: the main players in the power business are making huge profits, 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: including charging hundreds for reconnections done by the touch of 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: a button. So how do we ensure that the lights 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: can stay on for everyone? 12 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: Today? 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: On the Front Page. Senior Research fellow at University of 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: Otago's Department of Public Health, Kimberly O'Sullivan Kimberlieve, how extreme 15 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: is the issue of energy hardship in New Zealand. 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 3: Well, energy hardship is a really complex problem, and it's 17 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 3: caused by a big combination of housing quality, where you live, 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 3: how you pay for energy, what your household income is, 19 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 3: and who lives at home what energy they need to 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 3: use to keep healthy and comfortable. So that's why it's 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 3: really hard to measure, because we can't really just ask 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 3: one single question to understand how big the issue is. 23 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 3: But from our interview and survey studies, as well as 24 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 3: some research looking at electricity expenditure, we know that some 25 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 3: people will ration energy severely rather than spend more, and 26 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 3: others will go into debt. And due to the inefficiency 27 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 3: of their homes, some people won't be able to get 28 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 3: warm even if they do spend a lot. So using 29 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 3: different estimates, we found about a quarter of the population 30 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 3: we're experiencing energy hardship. Based on calculations about how much 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 3: households would need to spend on electricity to keep homes 32 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 3: to the minimum eighteen degree temperature recommended by the World 33 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: Health Organization for Protecting Health, and our more recent estimates. 34 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: Depending on how we measure energy hatship, the number ranges 35 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 3: from about eighteen to thirty percent of households. 36 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: You've been studying this for some years, hey, and I've 37 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: been to the homes of those who have actually lost power. 38 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: What sort of conditions are they living in? 39 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: So we see a range of things. So cutting back 40 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 3: on heating is very common. Other things like not using 41 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 3: electricity when the children go out to school, so parients 42 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 3: or caregivers might be sitting at home during the day, 43 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: but they won't use any electricity, they won't use any heating, 44 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: they'll save that up for when the kids come home. 45 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 3: They've seen extreme rationing on hot water, so some people 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 3: will switch off their hot water cylinder because they've worked 47 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 3: out that if they have a shower and then they 48 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 3: switch off their cylinder for the next few days and 49 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 3: just use whatever is left and then switch it back 50 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 3: on maybe four days later and have another hot shower, 51 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 3: that will be cheaper for them in the longer run. 52 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: So sometimes people do that. Generally, people prioritize keeping the 53 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 3: lights on because you know, if the lights go off, 54 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 3: then the neighbors can see that you're struggling. But if 55 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 3: you can keep the lights on it, and if you 56 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: can do the very very basic things like that, then 57 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 3: people don't have to be so fuck am I shy 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: about people knowing about this. There's a lot of people 59 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 3: that feel really ashamed of not having enough electricity at home. 60 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 3: One thing that people do is they all crowd into 61 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: the living room and just heat up the living room together, 62 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 3: and that functional overcrowding with everybody all together yeather or 63 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,119 Speaker 3: even sleeping in the living room means that it's easier 64 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: for people to pass on colds and respiratory illness among 65 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: the family, even though everyone feels a bit warmer and 66 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: things can get a bit tense. So teenagers have told 67 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 3: us that's a bit hard when they can't you spend 68 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 3: time in their rooms as well. 69 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: And I imagine this isn't a new issue either, is it? 70 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 3: And no, this isn't. This is something that's been going 71 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 3: on for a long time. And I think the improvements 72 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,799 Speaker 3: that we're making are very slow. 73 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 4: And when you think about having to have a fun 74 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 4: dinner of sandwiches and cereal because you're trying to save 75 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 4: money to have power to keep them warm through the night, 76 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 4: like that sounds like a lovely story to a lot 77 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 4: of people, and it might even be Tarcherking, But for her, 78 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 4: it's an absolute reality. What the story highlights is the 79 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 4: impact that not having power has. 80 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: What are some ways that people are almost punished when 81 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: their power is cut off from power companies. I understand 82 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: you almost get charged extra for reconnecting. 83 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So there are disconnection fees for a 84 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 3: cost to the electricity company turning off your power if 85 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 3: you have an outstanding bill and you get disconnected, and 86 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 3: then there are often reconnection fees for having it turned 87 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 3: back on, and those charges are really variable across different companies. 88 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 3: And then also if you're using prepay metering, sometimes there 89 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 3: are charges for checking the balance or topping that up 90 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 3: as well. My view is that all of these charges 91 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 3: are really quite unfair and they hurt the people who 92 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 3: need support the most. 93 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: Have you spoken to officials about this in your research? 94 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: What has their response been. 95 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 3: Yes, we've spoken to officials. We've spoken with electricity companies too. 96 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 3: I would say that there's a growing understanding of the 97 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 3: impact of these kinds of fees, and there's some movement 98 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 3: towards reducing or even eliminating them. I would really like 99 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 3: to see these eliminated and absorbed into the business costs 100 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: of running an electricity retailing company, which is a company 101 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: that's always selling an essential service that everyone is always 102 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 3: going to need. 103 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: The previous government introduced the Healthy Homes standards. Can you 104 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: remind us of what that actually mandated? 105 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: Yes? 106 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 3: So, I guess the key things for this conversation is 107 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: that insulation and the space heating needed to be brought 108 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 3: up to a certain level. It's a little early to 109 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 3: say exactly what the effect of the Healthy Home standards 110 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 3: are so far, but for homes that have had their 111 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 3: temperatures increased through having better heating and improve insulation, I 112 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 3: would expect to see health improvements happening right now. We 113 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 3: do know that there are problems with enforcing the standards 114 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 3: because in a tight rental market, renters do not want 115 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 3: to complain to their landlords, and now with no clause 116 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 3: of actions coming back in, people prefer not to raise 117 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 3: issues with their landlords about their rental housing quality so 118 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 3: that they have a better chance of not having to 119 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: move house, which is stressful and expensive for people. We 120 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: also have to remember that these are minimum standards, so 121 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: homes that meet the Healthy Home standards do not have 122 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 3: to meet the minimum standards of the Building Code for 123 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: new homes. So it's critical that we just keep raising 124 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: the bar so that our housing needs less heating to 125 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 3: keep us warm and healthy. 126 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: How important is it that we continue to build houses 127 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: to a quality standard to keep them warm. 128 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 3: Our housing is relatively poor quality and our building standards 129 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: are some of the weakest in the OECD. So when 130 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 3: we measure indoor temperatures, what we find is that the 131 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: indoor temperatures in new Zealand homes are really affected and 132 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: tied quite closely what's happening with the outdoor temperatures. Our 133 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: homes should be able to offer us better protection from 134 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: the weather. We have the technology to be able to 135 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: build to a much higher standard than the minimum Building 136 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: Code standard, and if we continue to raise our expectations 137 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 3: of what our homes can do for us, and keep 138 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 3: raising those standards, then we should be able to kind 139 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 3: of build this problem out. 140 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, why does it seem like it's such a huge 141 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: issue in New Zealand And that's a really good question. 142 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 3: I'm not sure why we for so long haven't really 143 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 3: valued properly the importance of being warm at home. And 144 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 3: one of my frustrations is that when we look at 145 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 3: the housing market, it seems often like we put more 146 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 3: value on a nice done up kitchen or a new 147 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 3: bathroom instead of is this a house that's going to 148 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: be able to keep us warm in the winter and 149 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 3: cool in the summer. And so one thing that we 150 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 3: could do around that would be to introduce energy performance 151 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: certificates that are used in some other countries, and these 152 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 3: would help to tell people if they buy this house 153 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 3: or if they rent this house, it's going to cost 154 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 3: about this much to run it and to keep it 155 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: to a comfortable and healthy temperature. I would really like 156 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: to see a system like that put in place. 157 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: Is there anything else you've seen from other countries that 158 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: you'd like to see implemented here. 159 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 3: There are other things that we could do to support 160 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 3: people that are experiencing energy hardship, things like you know 161 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 3: we have the winter energy payment, but perhaps looking at 162 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 3: other ways of charging for electricity, and there are some 163 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 3: examples of that starting to pop up in New Zealand. 164 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 3: I know we have Toast Electric in the Pornekey region 165 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 3: where they have a subsidized model for customers that are 166 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 3: experiencing hardship that are referred through budgeting agencies and they're 167 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 3: supported from the profits from regular customers, so that operates 168 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 3: as a not for profit system that electricity retailerant. So 169 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 3: that's one thing that we could try more of and 170 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 3: see how that works. And there are other things too 171 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 3: that other countries do, like when it is particularly cold 172 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 3: or particularly hot, they will have effectively a ban on 173 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 3: disconnections during those periods to ensure that people are able 174 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 3: to access heating or calling when they need it most. 175 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 3: To support their health at home. 176 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: Is it quite disappointing that heating your home and being 177 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: warm is classed as a nice to have? 178 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: Yes, I think it is not just disappointing, but it's 179 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 3: also a bit of an economically silly position for us 180 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 3: to take in New Zealand because ultimately this results in 181 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 3: public costs. We see people going to hospital for housing 182 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 3: related illnesses that are caused by cold, damp, and moldy homes. 183 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: This is costing us collectively a lot of money. And 184 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 3: if we just supported people to be warm at home, 185 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 3: then it would provide them with more dignity and it 186 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 3: would enable them to be warm and well at home. 187 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: Previously on the front page, we've heard that New Zealand 188 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: could save a billion dollars a year from having warm, 189 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: healthy homes if homes are insulated even to what is 190 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: quite a minimum standard. 191 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 2: Overseas, children have fewer days of school and adults have 192 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: more time for their employment, less sick days off work 193 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: and so forth. So overall costs to society are about 194 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: a billion dollars a year. 195 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: About right to you, I think so. 196 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 3: I think currently we're saving around billion dollars a year 197 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 3: with programs like ECHOS Insulation program, the Healthy Home Standards 198 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 3: and to FUTO orders Healthy Homes initiatives. So I think 199 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 3: easily there's another billion dollars to be saved by doing 200 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 3: even more, because the things that we've done have really 201 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 3: been the minimum. 202 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: And Kimberly, what would you like to see changed? What 203 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: can power companies do and what can they bring to 204 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: the table to kind of alleviate this issue. 205 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there is a lot more that we 206 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: could be doing to increase the efficiency of our homes 207 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 3: and build out the problem of energy hardship. And at 208 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 3: the same time, we could be supporting people to have 209 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 3: better access to electricity at home, better supporting those people 210 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 3: who are finding it difficult to pay their bills, and 211 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: we could do other things to enable people to access 212 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 3: off wadable renewable energy, including solar PV that would really help, 213 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 3: particularly for those people that are home during the day. 214 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Kimberly. That's it for this episode 215 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: of The Front Page. You can read more about today's 216 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at enzedherld dot co dot z. 217 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles with sound 218 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front 219 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 220 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.