Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks, b.
Speaker 2: The Drown.
Speaker 1: Snags and welcome back to the Weekend Collective. I'm Tim Beverage,
Speaker 1: but a Duran durand to easy into the Air hung
Speaker 1: we like the wolf probably has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: this topic, but of course, but Duran Guran in terms
Speaker 1: of my own interested quite a bond theme view to
Speaker 1: a kill. By the way, I think it was the
Speaker 1: top rating bond theme when it came around. What the
Speaker 1: best seller they've ever had anyway, not for Duran Duran
Speaker 1: but the bond things. But there we go. Let's get
Speaker 1: back to our knitting, shall we And the the number
Speaker 1: is eight hundred and eight ten eighty. Will want your
Speaker 1: cause text nine to nine two. By the way, if
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Speaker 1: He'd be dot cod at in z or to iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: And actually, before we get into it, just in case
Speaker 1: you're listening, there is a competition going on at the
Speaker 1: universities right now where apparently if you call up a
Speaker 1: radio station and get on air and give a shout
Speaker 1: out to your to your mates at a particular hall.
Speaker 1: Then apparently you get some you get a bunch of points.
Speaker 1: So if you hear me hang up on someone prematurely,
Speaker 1: then it's probably because that's the game they're playing. But
Speaker 1: then again, if you are playing the game, if you
Speaker 1: call up and you have a sensible call on the topic,
Speaker 1: that's been we've clearly been listening. Oh, let you give
Speaker 1: a shout out to your mates. So there you go,
Speaker 1: oh eight eighty. But of course we are joined by
Speaker 1: Dr Alex Bartle from the Sleep weldlin It because that's
Speaker 1: the topic today, or Alex, we're about getting a good
Speaker 1: night sleep. How are you doing well?
Speaker 3: Thanks t Y.
Speaker 1: Do you have a good night sleep?
Speaker 4: I usually have a pretty good night sleep, not always,
Speaker 4: but if I don't, I know.
Speaker 1: What to do do you? Okay? Well, we're going to
Speaker 1: get into that. But the thing that one of the
Speaker 1: things that we wanted to talk about this afternoon is
Speaker 1: because people put a heap of energy into tracking the
Speaker 1: length and quality of their sleep. In fact, sometimes they
Speaker 1: put it quite a bit of money into it because
Speaker 1: they want to buy this particular smart watch which you'll
Speaker 1: track this sleep. I mean, my phone will track my sleep,
Speaker 1: but of course I don't hold my phone while I'm sleeping,
Speaker 1: so that's no good. And we want to ask, have
Speaker 1: you got a sleep tracking app? What does it tell you?
Speaker 1: Because you actually might be looking at the results and
Speaker 1: going I actually don't know what this means. Apparently I'm
Speaker 1: sleeping for three or four hours, then I wake up
Speaker 1: for a bit, and then I go back to sleep.
Speaker 1: Is that a good night's sleep? So give us a
Speaker 1: call to you and do you find that if you've
Speaker 1: got to sleep tracking app, that it suddenly changes your
Speaker 1: consciousness and your awareness about your sleep to the extent
Speaker 1: that you start not even a good night's sleep? And
Speaker 1: there is something about there that isn't there, Alex. When
Speaker 1: you start getting preoccupied about what your brain or your
Speaker 1: mind is doing, that it's like setting your own traps,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 4: It's all very well tracking it. And let's face it,
Speaker 4: we're not going to be able to get rid of
Speaker 4: these watches. I mean, they've been around now for a
Speaker 4: good decade or more and they're getting better, but they
Speaker 4: do create problems. Sometimes they're really interesting, and they do
Speaker 4: highlight some inadequacies in our sleep at times, But then
Speaker 4: this question of how to interpret them. So it's all
Speaker 4: very well saying oh, I'm only getting you know, twenty
Speaker 4: percent of deep non ram sleep, whatever that means to them.
Speaker 4: That's not enough, you know, I should be all night,
Speaker 4: should be deep sleep. I need more digits. Well, actually, no,
Speaker 4: you don't need any more than twenty percent.
Speaker 1: That's what really, So twenty percent deep sleep.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's the usual.
Speaker 1: What's in fact, from what you've seen of tracking sleep
Speaker 1: tracking apps and devices, how deep can they go in
Speaker 1: terms of your sleep? Because I would have thought what
Speaker 1: are they they?
Speaker 2: What do they?
Speaker 1: How do they make their decision as to whether you're asleep?
Speaker 1: Is it because you're stationary for a while and you're
Speaker 1: pulse is about the same for a few minutes.
Speaker 4: It works on several things. Movement is one of them,
Speaker 4: the old fashioned way, that's what the most historic ways
Speaker 4: be doing. They do what's called heart rate variability. So
Speaker 4: it's to do with the autonomic nervous system, which I
Speaker 4: won't go into at this stage, but it will tell
Speaker 4: you whether you're actually in very relaxed state or a
Speaker 4: bit stressed. It then measures temperatures as well, and some
Speaker 4: of the measure actually noise as well, snoring as well,
Speaker 4: but then pretty good actually whether you're asleep or whether
Speaker 4: you're awake. So sleep and wake is fairly good nine
Speaker 4: or so. But whether you're in REM non REM sleep
Speaker 4: Level two, level one non REM sleep or REM sleep,
Speaker 4: they're not nearly as accurate.
Speaker 1: Do you track your sleep? No, there you go people
Speaker 1: the sleep? But have you tracked your sleep?
Speaker 3: To be honest? I have for a short time?
Speaker 1: And why was it just?
Speaker 4: I know we would we were trying model Well, yes,
Speaker 4: I mean I've tried everything, for example, for sleep happening.
Speaker 4: I've tried all the possible devices you can get for
Speaker 4: sleep happened to see how they feel. But as far
Speaker 4: as tracking is concerned, you we got involved with a
Speaker 4: particular device, and so I thought I should try it out.
Speaker 1: You got involved with a particular device.
Speaker 3: What you were sort of throwing it out to use
Speaker 3: in our clinic.
Speaker 1: Okay, and you haven't mentioned what the device is, so
Speaker 1: I'm guessing it didn't go that well.
Speaker 4: No, No, it went very well. They're extremely good. Dare
Speaker 4: I say I've been in trouble before for mentioning?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the product we use, the ring, Okay,
Speaker 1: what is the ring? What's the or ring? Okay, right,
Speaker 1: I see so, And because there are different types of
Speaker 1: have you tried a watch or a digital watch.
Speaker 4: I haven't tried that. I've read up about them. And
Speaker 4: the problem I see with roches is that you wear
Speaker 4: them on the wrist, so in the middle of the
Speaker 4: night when you wake up, you're going to look at it,
Speaker 4: and of course that will immediately tell you the time,
Speaker 4: which we try and avoid people doing so looking at
Speaker 4: the keep on looking at the clock during the night
Speaker 4: is not helpful for sleep, whereas the ring you just
Speaker 4: shut on your finger all night and you download it
Speaker 4: in the morning, so you only know what's happened when
Speaker 4: you read it in the morning.
Speaker 1: Because that's the thing with the watch. With a smart watch,
Speaker 1: if you are wearing it, is there a Does it
Speaker 1: create a temptation? I guess which I think this is
Speaker 1: a rhetorical question, because I think it does create a
Speaker 1: temptation that you would be like, oh, I've been how
Speaker 1: long I've only been tossing a turning or then before
Speaker 1: you know, you've tapped the screen on your watch and
Speaker 1: you've had a lock for oh, shows I've been awake
Speaker 1: for I've been awake for an hour. What hell? And
Speaker 1: then you're anxious and that's the night screw.
Speaker 4: It certainly creates anxiety, There's no question. We get a
Speaker 4: lot of worried people, people who are monitoring it and
Speaker 4: documenting it every day, every night, I should say. But remember,
Speaker 4: these smart watches do a lot of other things too,
Speaker 4: So it may be very good at measuring steps or
Speaker 4: amount of killer jewels you've used during the day, but
Speaker 4: as far as sleep is concerned, they're good for sleep
Speaker 4: and wake, but they're not so good for what level
Speaker 4: of sleep you're in. Yeah, I mean, and then what
Speaker 4: does that mean?
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the question.
Speaker 4: I mean, you're just surprised when we talked about twenty
Speaker 4: percent of deep no room sleep, most of the time
Speaker 4: we're in light sleep.
Speaker 3: And that's fantastic.
Speaker 4: You know, like level two, non REM sleep is where
Speaker 4: we spend most of the night, and that's some really
Speaker 4: important things to go on in that REM sleep is
Speaker 4: very light sleep. Our brain is as active in REM
Speaker 4: sleep as it is in quite wakefulness. But we're doing
Speaker 4: some really important things at that time quite wakefulness.
Speaker 1: Now what is that? Because I can make it up
Speaker 1: in my mind, what I think that is? My understanding
Speaker 1: quite wakefulness would be me, I've woken up, I haven't
Speaker 1: got back to sleep yet, and I think, now, hang
Speaker 1: on minute, I'm just gonna lie here and think about
Speaker 1: some happy thoughts. And that's for me, the quite wakefulness
Speaker 1: that sleep is that what quite wakefulness.
Speaker 4: Is meditation alph orithm, and your brain's a nice alpha
Speaker 4: quiet meditation type of thing, or just quite not worrying
Speaker 4: about anything.
Speaker 1: How much value does it have that you might not
Speaker 1: be able to get to sleep, because I think the
Speaker 1: reason I asked this question is because I think if
Speaker 1: you are awake and you're conscious, I think sometimes people think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not sleeping, this is no good, and then their
Speaker 1: anxiety level builds because they are not they're not unconscious,
Speaker 1: Whereas I've also heard that actually, don't worry about it,
Speaker 1: just lie there, because even lying there and having peaceful
Speaker 1: thoughts does have some sleep value to it, doesn't.
Speaker 4: It has some cognitive value, some brain function value. But
Speaker 4: when they've done studies of people who've been quietly awake
Speaker 4: all night doing lots of blood tests over night, they
Speaker 4: have a candular in them and take that time all
Speaker 4: through the night, and then they allow those people to
Speaker 4: sleep for rate hours. The brain the studies on the
Speaker 4: blood are quite different. So there are quite specific things
Speaker 4: that happen when you're asleep that don't happen if you're awake,
Speaker 4: Although it is there is value to just lie in
Speaker 4: there quietly. Yeah, but ah, how often do you do that?
Speaker 1: Well? Unfortunately a little too often sometimes. But so have
Speaker 1: on what's what effect does sleep have on? What? What
Speaker 1: signals does blanket.
Speaker 4: Things like corterior levels and hormonal levels. Generally you know
Speaker 4: things like immunity factors TNFL for sales into looking factor
Speaker 4: so the heart of blood. Things change basically.
Speaker 1: So why what are the pro pros and cons off
Speaker 1: tracking sleep? And the simple question is who should When
Speaker 1: should you actually track your sleep? When's it? When's it worthwhile?
Speaker 4: I think it's interesting and people will always be interested
Speaker 4: in what's happening in their bodies. But to rely on
Speaker 4: it every night to see what's happening? Just how do
Speaker 4: you feel in the morning. If you're waking up exhausted
Speaker 4: in the morning, then you're probably not sleeping very well
Speaker 4: for one reason or another. If you're awake. Half that,
Speaker 4: if you're awake and you get that perception that you're awake.
Speaker 4: Then that's not good either, even if there's a huge
Speaker 4: thing called sleep state misperception. In other words, we think
Speaker 4: we've been awake all night, whereas in fact we've been drifting. Yeah,
Speaker 4: sleep that's very common.
Speaker 1: Well, that's that is the one I think that you
Speaker 1: can confuse people because often, ever since I've had you
Speaker 1: on the show, I've had someone say to my eye,
Speaker 1: which I was just awake all night, and I might
Speaker 1: say to them, you might not have been because your
Speaker 1: perception of what your sleep is. That's but I guess
Speaker 1: if you're feeling tired, then obviously some probably were awake
Speaker 1: at some stage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 1: I mean there was a night I went to I
Speaker 1: had what I consider I felt like I had a
Speaker 1: fairly disturbed sleep, but I woke up I felt quite
Speaker 1: well rested. Does that mean that when I wasn't sort
Speaker 1: of tossing and turning, I was actually having some really
Speaker 1: fantastic yep.
Speaker 4: Sounds like the quality of sleep is really good, albeit
Speaker 4: not very much of it, but the quality was good.
Speaker 4: Where some people, you know, sleep for good eight or nine,
Speaker 4: even up to ten hours, but feel rubbish in the morning, Well,
Speaker 4: it's usually because they're quality of sleep probably something like
Speaker 4: sleep ap near is occurring.
Speaker 1: Okay, we love your call, so weight one hundred and
Speaker 1: eighty ten and eighty in text on nine two nine two. Firstly,
Speaker 1: I do you track your sleep? And have you found
Speaker 1: that it's been quite useful or helpful? I mean now,
Speaker 1: Alex said, it's like all human beings, we're curious about things.
Speaker 1: It's like why people want to know how many steps
Speaker 1: they've done during their day. I tend to think you know,
Speaker 1: if you want to if you're worried about exercise, just
Speaker 1: go out for a run until you feel like you've exercised.
Speaker 1: That's probably the answer for me. Same with sleep. Go
Speaker 1: to bed and if you feel you've had a good
Speaker 1: night sleep, don't worry about tracking it. But are you
Speaker 1: one of those people who you love the fact you've
Speaker 1: got the smart watch or you've got some other device
Speaker 1: that tracks you sleep? Do you track it? But if
Speaker 1: you've got other questions on sleep, getting good night's sleep
Speaker 1: from doctor Alex Bartle, director of the Sleepweld Clinic, and
Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you. Oh wait one hundred
Speaker 1: eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two. It's eighteen
Speaker 1: past four. News Talks hed B. Yes, News talks here B.
Speaker 1: We're talking sleep with Alex Bartle from Sleepwell Clinic and
Speaker 1: let's let's get into it. Steve, Hello, good, Hi, all right,
Speaker 1: I have a question and my doctors can't answer.
Speaker 6: The hospital no one I have. But I went to
Speaker 6: get a blood test and it came back that I
Speaker 6: was fitting healthy. One week later, I go back and
Speaker 6: get the same thing done and it came back that
Speaker 6: they said, sorry, it's too late. You have hyperthoridism and
Speaker 6: Graves disease. And it kind of spun me out because
Speaker 6: they didn't explain anything to me about it. But I
Speaker 6: noticed that my sleep I have issues sleeping. I might
Speaker 6: only get one to two hours sleep at night. And
Speaker 6: I know things like eating before you go to bed
Speaker 6: is bad because that causes your heart to stretch out
Speaker 6: a little bit because you're trying to digest food while
Speaker 6: you're asleep. So because I've got heart disease, I'm thinking
Speaker 6: I get a bit of sleep when I eat before
Speaker 6: I go to sleep, which is bad, but I do
Speaker 6: get a bit of sleep. And the medications they just
Speaker 6: stopped working after like teen years of being on it.
Speaker 6: So I'm trying to find I'm trying to find other
Speaker 6: ways that I can relax myself or get into a
Speaker 6: stage a time for me to be able to go
Speaker 6: to sleep at night.
Speaker 1: Okay, Steve, thanks for that. Let's bring Alex on it
Speaker 1: actually eating before going to bed, or let's do all that.
Speaker 4: Well, a snack is usually fine. What we don't want
Speaker 4: him is to go to bed with a tummy fall,
Speaker 4: because basically our gut doesn't work well at night, and
Speaker 4: hence we got this thing called breakfast. We're breaking the fast,
Speaker 4: so expect to go at least ten to twelve hours
Speaker 4: without anything in their tummy. But some people, like yourself, Steve,
Speaker 4: may betefit for a little bit of a snack before
Speaker 4: you gett a bit, but just don't make you too
Speaker 4: much at all.
Speaker 1: Keep it light. What about the other things that Steve
Speaker 1: talked about? Thyroid?
Speaker 4: Thyroid problems are likely to interrupt sleep to some degree,
Speaker 4: but that's usually monitored by the doctor who will be
Speaker 4: managing that. And either you've got too much thyroid which
Speaker 4: might interrupt your sleep, or not enough, which makes you
Speaker 4: very sleepy.
Speaker 1: What are you eating before you go to bed, Steve?
Speaker 6: Because I got Guy's disease, unlimited to what I can eat.
Speaker 6: I can't have food just magnesium, arny of it. And
Speaker 6: I used to a lot of sushi in that and
Speaker 6: I think it's the seaweed I'm not allowed. So I
Speaker 6: don't know. I'll just on these two of us that
Speaker 6: live in the house. And I used to be a
Speaker 6: sheath and my problem is I cook way too much.
Speaker 6: But I think all leftovers the next day. So it's
Speaker 6: things I'll make with criss of course, okay, and I'll
Speaker 6: have some cold chicken in there. But I love my dressing,
Speaker 6: so so dressing and all in.
Speaker 4: The main, just keep it late, not not too much,
Speaker 4: and they shouldn't have any problem as far as your
Speaker 4: sleep is concerned. But if you're not sleeping any more
Speaker 4: than a couple of hours at night, I think we
Speaker 4: need to actually catch up.
Speaker 1: Actually, what is the the yep? So yeah, Steve, if
Speaker 1: you want to go, you can visit the sleep Well
Speaker 1: Clinic dot consin you and check that out. But what
Speaker 1: is what sort of things are better to eat? For instance,
Speaker 1: the let's go with the soothing glass of milk or
Speaker 1: at bedtime? And is that kind of thing to it?
Speaker 4: I mean, ideally, the thinking was that it has tripped
Speaker 4: to pen in it, and van is a precursor to serotonin,
Speaker 4: that's precursor to melatonin. That was the sort of original thing.
Speaker 4: It doesn't probably make much difference. It's a fatty drink,
Speaker 4: so that means it will delay gastric emptying, which is
Speaker 4: fine in some respects. You won't get the sugar hit
Speaker 4: from it. So because it delays.
Speaker 1: Is that good or bad?
Speaker 4: That's okay, And when you're trying to sleep, you don't
Speaker 4: want sugar hit just before. But on the other hand,
Speaker 4: it does sit in the body for a long time,
Speaker 4: but liquid, so it'll go through relies so easily.
Speaker 1: What about peanuts, I've got a text about that saying,
Speaker 1: what about peanuts, I've heard they give you nightmares? That
Speaker 1: is that nonsense?
Speaker 4: I haven't heard that one, to be honest. I mean
Speaker 4: cheese is the classic one.
Speaker 1: I'd drains on cheese.
Speaker 4: And that was supposed to be the tyro scene in
Speaker 4: the cheese. But the study that was done by a
Speaker 4: cheese company said that it didn't make any difference.
Speaker 1: So done by the cheese company, I reckon they should
Speaker 1: have done the opposite. They should have said, have amazingly
Speaker 1: vivid nightmare is when you eat our cheese and make
Speaker 1: it a challenge, and that will become one of those
Speaker 1: things with young I'm going to a huge chunk of
Speaker 1: cheese before bed. Anyway, Look, let's take some more calls
Speaker 1: on this June.
Speaker 7: Hello, Hello, when you talk a little louder because I'm
Speaker 7: very deaf. But I'm a ninety four year old and
Speaker 7: I'm not sleeping very well, and I've my mind just
Speaker 7: goes on and on and on. How do I shut
Speaker 7: it down so I can get some decent sleep?
Speaker 4: Well planning before you go to bed. Just spend a
Speaker 4: bit of time writing some stuff down, so just brain.
Speaker 7: I can see I've got no side.
Speaker 4: Okay, have you got a dog or a cat companion?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: Right, So find something you can actually talk to, so
Speaker 4: and have a chat. You're buy yourself?
Speaker 3: Are you?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 7: I need it? Just goes on and on and I
Speaker 7: go back into time.
Speaker 1: Later.
Speaker 4: Don't go to bed too soon. Spend a bit of time.
Speaker 1: Then the thing, Yes, I have to go What time
Speaker 1: do you go to bed? Jane?
Speaker 7: About? Well, I have to get well. I tell you
Speaker 7: why I'm reading. I'm in a rest home and I've
Speaker 7: got to go to bed. About I've got to get
Speaker 7: ready for bed. By seven o'clock and be in bed.
Speaker 7: And I don't find it easy to get to sleep
Speaker 7: when I've been distracted like that all the time.
Speaker 1: Have they got you on a routine that doesn't suit you,
Speaker 1: So they encourage you to go to bed early, and
Speaker 1: they probably wake you.
Speaker 7: Up at about what They wake me up at eleven o'clock.
Speaker 7: They wake me up again at about another couple of hours,
Speaker 7: about two or two or three o'clock. Then they wake
Speaker 7: me up again at five o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: Is that for medication?
Speaker 6: Is it?
Speaker 7: No, it's just just the routine so that they check
Speaker 7: to see if you're right. That's something they've got to
Speaker 7: do evidently. But it just so disturbs my sleep pattern
Speaker 7: that I haven't push.
Speaker 1: That sounds that's a bit of a catch twenty two.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well it's a catch twenty two. But I can't
Speaker 7: think of good thought, so I seem to get into
Speaker 7: bed habits now and I think, but well, I know
Speaker 7: you can't help.
Speaker 1: Hang on, just stay on the line. I might have
Speaker 1: a chat.
Speaker 4: I might say that in many instances routines have changed.
Speaker 4: For one of the major change that would be made
Speaker 4: is in intensive key and it's where you're being working
Speaker 4: every sort of half hour to take your blood pressure,
Speaker 4: and they're reducing that now as near natally units are
Speaker 4: much less invasive now, and maybe places in rest homes
Speaker 4: like you're in should actually be waking you less often
Speaker 4: or intruding in your nighttime less often, because waking you
Speaker 4: up is not helpful for your health.
Speaker 1: And of course we don't know what. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: difficult because we have a limited amount of information. I mean,
Speaker 1: there might be a clinical reason why for something, but
Speaker 1: what could June talk to who talk to them about saying?
Speaker 1: And she challenged them on that. I don't want to
Speaker 1: advocate that she should tell them what she wants done, because.
Speaker 4: Well, she could do that. The realities, it probably won't
Speaker 4: change their routine because they've got a plan and if
Speaker 4: they they're worried about if they don't carry the plan
Speaker 4: and something goes wrong, then they would be liable.
Speaker 3: So there's sort of a little bit of.
Speaker 1: I would have thought that if you were still a
Speaker 1: compassmentous elderly person, you know what you want you to say,
Speaker 1: I don't want your waking me, And then I would
Speaker 1: have thought that they would have to do that unless
Speaker 1: a doctor said, well, there's a reason we're doing it.
Speaker 1: And then you know what I mean, as opposed to
Speaker 1: you're just waking me to check on me.
Speaker 3: I think helping.
Speaker 4: No, no, it's not helping at all. No, no, So
Speaker 4: the you're absolutely right challenge it. Check with the authorities
Speaker 4: in your wrist home.
Speaker 1: By the way, just a quick one sees is are
Speaker 1: they a good idea?
Speaker 4: Yes, it's quite a common thing, you know. And then
Speaker 4: we get that circadian dip, that dip in our energy
Speaker 4: levels often in the afternoon, and so having a bit
Speaker 4: of a nap then if you need to, if you
Speaker 4: need to regularly, it often implies that you'll sleep itself
Speaker 4: isn't good, So you're not getting the restoration you need
Speaker 4: to be in the nighttime. However, if you're particularly tired,
Speaker 4: then having a nap earlier in the afternoon, and the
Speaker 4: word is if you complete your short nap, keep it
Speaker 4: less than twenty minutes of actual sleep before three o'clock,
Speaker 4: then it doesn't seem to impact greatly on your nighttime.
Speaker 1: Okay, there, Actually I saw there's something recently. I mean
Speaker 1: there's always stories in the media about sleeping, but there
Speaker 1: was I think there's been some study or recommendation done
Speaker 1: about people say I'm bit tired and three o'clock there
Speaker 1: or two o'clock they have a cup of coffee, And
Speaker 1: there was some advocacy going on from I don't know where.
Speaker 1: I can't remember the context for it would actually if
Speaker 1: work let you have a quick nap for fifteen or
Speaker 1: twenty minutes, you would Actually it's more effective and you're
Speaker 1: more productive than having a cup of coffee. And I
Speaker 1: would vouch for that because of the hours I do,
Speaker 1: and there's two days a week where I know that
Speaker 1: maybe at two o'clock or something I'm going to be
Speaker 1: a bit tight, and I grabbed that twenty minutes and
Speaker 1: I'm on fire after that. It's the power of a nap.
Speaker 4: Is very is extraordinary. You're absolutely right. I mean, if
Speaker 4: you can give yourself maybe a twenty twenty five minute
Speaker 4: sleep opportunity of which you might sleep only fifteen to
Speaker 4: twenty minutes, that's really restorative. And so if you're tired
Speaker 4: and with shift workers as you work of course to
Speaker 4: tim then it does make you a huge difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating the power of a nap. And I'm
Speaker 1: still a work in progress just because I have weird hours,
Speaker 1: but it's I think you know people who resist it.
Speaker 1: If you're I mean, if you haven't nap obvious set
Speaker 1: four pm, you're probably going to stuff yourself for later on.
Speaker 1: But what on a general conventional clock, what's the latest
Speaker 1: time you reckon you can take a nap.
Speaker 4: Probably well between three and four. I wouldn't really have
Speaker 4: a nap then. I mean, for example, mums who are
Speaker 4: going to pick up children, well, have your nap before
Speaker 4: you go and pick them up.
Speaker 1: I would imagine there are a lot of mums who've
Speaker 1: got their alarm set for say two forty. You lie
Speaker 1: out a quarter past two and just set their alarms
Speaker 1: so you've got time to get to school.
Speaker 4: That means they're safe.
Speaker 3: That's great.
Speaker 1: Good on you, right, eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
Speaker 1: is the number. Let's continue. Anna, you're a nurse in
Speaker 1: aged care.
Speaker 2: Together, Well, yeah, I'm a nurse. I've just finished work.
Speaker 2: I have I'll pull over. I have worked in age care.
Speaker 2: I work in mental health now I work in acute
Speaker 2: mental health. Now that lady who called, there's a couple
Speaker 2: of things I thought of. Firstly, she seems to be
Speaker 2: of sound mind, so she actually has the right to
Speaker 2: tell them that she doesn't want to be woken up,
Speaker 2: and she probably has an enduring power of attorney who
Speaker 2: will make medical decisions on her behalf if she becomes incapacitated,
Speaker 2: So that would most likely be a close about it.
Speaker 2: If it's usually a child. So if she doesn't feel
Speaker 2: she can say it, the power of attorney needs to
Speaker 2: go and say to the management. Now she has the right.
Speaker 2: There's the health and disability to mission, the twelve rights. Yeah,
Speaker 2: those posters are in every medical facility in the country,
Speaker 2: and she has to right. There's twelve rights. I can't
Speaker 2: name them in my kid. That a right to an
Speaker 2: appropriate standard of care.
Speaker 1: She doesn't she sorry, sorry to interrupt. Sorry, a bit
Speaker 1: of a timing on the line there, But is it
Speaker 1: Is it routine in age care facilities that that that
Speaker 1: a care will do the rounds and and sort of just.
Speaker 2: Check it's terrible, there's some terrible things, and that there
Speaker 2: will be some there will be some legitimate reasons to
Speaker 2: wake her up. If she cannot turn or move her body,
Speaker 2: she will be at risk of what's called a pressure
Speaker 2: area injury, and she would be turned at night. That
Speaker 2: would be a legitimate reason I've had people who really
Speaker 2: needed to be turned every two hours, but they were
Speaker 2: very very very frail and weak and they couldn't move.
Speaker 2: But some people would turn them only once in the
Speaker 2: night if they couldn't move, or if they had were
Speaker 2: in continent and we had to change them. But if
Speaker 2: she's not in any of those categories, she absolutely has
Speaker 2: the right to not be disturbed, but she wouldn't need
Speaker 2: to speak to the manager of that place and also
Speaker 2: her power of attorney.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, we have that. That's good advice. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. And actually there would be from
Speaker 1: what I understand, there are sometimes if you are in
Speaker 1: age care facilities and you require medication and a particular
Speaker 1: on a particular timetable, that would be another reason for it.
Speaker 1: But of course it didn't sound like that from from
Speaker 1: an from June. Hey, we're going to take We're going
Speaker 1: to take a quick moment. We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. The original conversation was
Speaker 1: around sleep tracking, whether you did it. But of course
Speaker 1: we are with Alex Bartle, who's director of the Sleep
Speaker 1: Well Clinic, and you can give us a call if
Speaker 1: you've got any questions about getting a good night's sleep,
Speaker 1: or if there's just one of those questions you've got
Speaker 1: it's like somebody as somebody said, is it okay to
Speaker 1: grab a siesta? Or are their foods I should avoid eating?
Speaker 1: Or simple bits of advice you're seeking which you think, well,
Speaker 1: how you get a bed night sleep? Then we'd love
Speaker 1: to hear from you. You know the number eight hundred
Speaker 1: eighty ten eighty. You can text nine two nine two.
Speaker 1: It's twenty four to five. As inside Weekends, Welcome back
Speaker 1: to the Weekend Collective. This is the health Hub. I'm
Speaker 1: tin beverage. My guest is doctor Alex Bartell, director of
Speaker 1: the Sleepworld Clinic, and we're talking about well do you
Speaker 1: track your sleep? For one, often, definitely enough, some people
Speaker 1: might say I don't need a sleep tracker because he
Speaker 1: or she is sleeping next to me. Because that the
Speaker 1: first person will tell you that you've had a bad
Speaker 1: night's sleep might be them because they're like you, we're
Speaker 1: tossing and turning all night. But do you track the
Speaker 1: quality of your sleep? Is the question we've started with,
Speaker 1: but are also taking your calls around getting a good
Speaker 1: night sleep. I've got to call a text here from
Speaker 1: Ethel who says, my husband goes to sleep at around
Speaker 1: two am and wakes at seven eight every day and
Speaker 1: then has an hour long nap at eleven am. Can
Speaker 1: you make up for a nighttime sleep with naps or
Speaker 1: does it need to be consistent sleep?
Speaker 4: No, you can make up time in the afternoon. It's
Speaker 4: never quite satisfactory as having in overnight sleep. But he's
Speaker 4: having five hours overnight and an extra hour during the day,
Speaker 4: which in the twenty four hours is six hours, which
Speaker 4: in itself is borderline.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of them, but that was one of
Speaker 1: the old don't think you can say old wives tales
Speaker 1: these days. That's probably sexist and agis. But anyway, I've
Speaker 1: heard one of those sort of urban myths. There we go.
Speaker 1: That's the word for an old wives tale, urban myth
Speaker 1: that you can't catch up on a night's sleep. But
Speaker 1: I was thinking that has to be nonsense, because if
Speaker 1: you have a bad night sleep at some stage, you're
Speaker 1: going to be restored by having better sleep later on.
Speaker 4: Absolutely to a certain degree. What the worthy myth perhaps
Speaker 4: used to occur is that we'd say, if you'd had
Speaker 4: a week of terrible sleep, night duty for a week
Speaker 4: or ten days or something, and you were absolutely exhausted
Speaker 4: at the end of that time. We used to teach
Speaker 4: that it would take two full nights of sleep to restore.
Speaker 4: We know that's not true anymore. It takes longer than that,
Speaker 4: takes possibly up to a week of normal sleep.
Speaker 1: But I guess if you have a five hour sleep
Speaker 1: and then okay. For instance, when I did the Breakfast show,
Speaker 1: I would often have five or six hours, not always
Speaker 1: the greatest sleep. I'd go home and have another two
Speaker 1: hours when I'd finished, and get up and carry on
Speaker 1: with them day fantastic is that that's not something I
Speaker 1: have to catch up on later on. That's just I'm
Speaker 1: sleeping then and I'm working that I'm having some more.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's it's okay. It's never quite as good
Speaker 4: as continuous. But we all wake at night anyway, so
Speaker 4: you know, and sleep used to be, as we now know,
Speaker 4: often in two in many cases, in two phases, although
Speaker 4: some primitive societies these days still seem to sleep through
Speaker 4: in six.
Speaker 1: That's the other thing I have on too, is because
Speaker 1: often people will I've had this on my overnight show.
Speaker 1: Whe people say I sleep, I sleep for a few
Speaker 1: hours then I wake up for an hour or two,
Speaker 1: and then I go back to sleep for another few hour,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, you're actually just sleeping.
Speaker 3: As we've evolved to absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1: The people would get up and do chores or have
Speaker 1: some quality time with their partner, a bit of oxytocin,
Speaker 1: and away we go to sleep again. That's oxytocin, isn't it.
Speaker 1: That's generated by amorous times. Indeed, amorous times. I think
Speaker 1: that's safe. Four in the afternoon, isn't it right, Let's
Speaker 1: carry on, Crystal.
Speaker 8: Hello, Hello, thanks for taking the call. My my thing is,
Speaker 8: I don't think it's the problem, but it's just something
Speaker 8: that is for me. So when I go to sleep,
Speaker 8: I go into with instantly a deep, deep, deep, deep sleep,
Speaker 8: absolutely so deep that the house could burn around, burn
Speaker 8: around me, And I wouldn't even know how it's deep.
Speaker 6: Sleep, because I just know.
Speaker 8: I know because people tell me that they've come into
Speaker 8: the house, or they've come to pick me up and
Speaker 8: I'm just not awake, or or things have happened that
Speaker 8: I've not been aware of it, and I've never heard
Speaker 8: a thing. My ex partners have told me. You know,
Speaker 8: when you're laying in bed, and you're talking about what
Speaker 8: you've got up to that day to your partner as
Speaker 8: you go to sleep. They said, within second set, and
Speaker 8: I've gone to sleep and I can actually get up,
Speaker 8: go to the loop dream, get up and go to
Speaker 8: the move, go back to bed, and pick up on
Speaker 8: the dream where I left off, like a book.
Speaker 3: And I.
Speaker 8: Think, wondering why that happens.
Speaker 1: That's interesting that picking up on a dream again, because
Speaker 1: is that because you have enjoyed the dreaming you think
Speaker 1: and you get back in and you just let your thoughts
Speaker 1: continue with what you remember or are you telling yourself
Speaker 1: you want to continue the dream? You just get back idea.
Speaker 8: You know, It's like when I go when I get up,
Speaker 8: because I'm so deep sleep. When I do wake, when
Speaker 8: I go to the loo, I'm always like a zombie
Speaker 8: going to the toilet. And then I get that done
Speaker 8: and I can't go back into the bed into a zombie,
Speaker 8: and it's almost like it's almost like I've woken up
Speaker 8: to go to the loo in auto pilots and when
Speaker 8: I got back, yeah, and then I bang of. Now
Speaker 8: I probably get about five hours sleeping nights, and that's
Speaker 8: probably And when I do wake, when I do wake up.
Speaker 8: I find it that it takes me a long time
Speaker 8: to get going.
Speaker 1: Oh, maybe you haven't had enough sleep. Let's throw it
Speaker 1: over to Alex. There hound crystal deep sleep.
Speaker 4: The very deep sleep occurs at the beginning of the night.
Speaker 4: So yes, going to deep sleep. And if you're fairly
Speaker 4: rather to sleep deprived as it sounds, if you are
Speaker 4: slightly sleep deprived, you're going to go into deep non
Speaker 4: rem sleep quite quickly. It usually about twenty minutes, but
Speaker 4: it could be a bit quicker than it. With you
Speaker 4: when you need to go to the toilet, that's usually
Speaker 4: going to be a bit later on. You're not going
Speaker 4: to go to the toilet within half an hour an
Speaker 4: hour of your falling asleep. And we do have little
Speaker 4: bits of rem sleep, which is actually light sleep. So
Speaker 4: when you're calling your sleep, you usually had light sleep.
Speaker 4: So if you get up and you think I've been dreaming,
Speaker 4: you've been in light sleep, not deep sleep. So we
Speaker 4: do dream in deep non rim sleep, but you only
Speaker 4: know about that if you are specifically woken out of
Speaker 4: deep non riom sleep. When you're in this deepest sleep,
Speaker 4: and then some people do recall that they've had they're
Speaker 4: having a bit of a dream, but you won't remember
Speaker 4: that because you're in deep sleep, and that lasts for
Speaker 4: about seventy minutes or so before you come into a
Speaker 4: light of sleep, and then you go back into deep
Speaker 4: sleep again towards the end of the night, which is
Speaker 4: more likely when you can be get up to go
Speaker 4: to the toilet. You're in much lighter sleep. And we
Speaker 4: spend at least eighty percent of our time in sleep
Speaker 4: in light sleep.
Speaker 1: So when you remember your dreams that it's when you're
Speaker 1: hearing light sleep. Yes, yes, because sometimes, I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know if Crystal might be like this as well,
Speaker 1: but Mike can have It's not often, but I'll often
Speaker 1: have a really intense dream, and if it's something where
Speaker 1: it's just something and I'm doing something inspiring or whatever,
Speaker 1: I'm actually enjoying it rather than a nightmare. I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm sleeping fantastically. I wake up on a ghost
Speaker 1: that was an amazing.
Speaker 4: Because dream sleep is incredibly important for our brain.
Speaker 1: Function, I should be happy when I've had a dream.
Speaker 4: So I really hate the name call them deep sleep
Speaker 4: and light sleep because it immediately means that I need
Speaker 4: more deep non rem sleep or deep sleep it's much
Speaker 4: better for me.
Speaker 3: No, it's not.
Speaker 4: They're completely different things. It's a very active time sleep
Speaker 4: and light sleep. This level two non rem sleep, we
Speaker 4: spent about fifty percent of the time in this is
Speaker 4: doing all these really important things k complexes, spindles in
Speaker 4: our brain as far as memories consolidation is concerned, as
Speaker 4: far as emotionality is concerned, and ramsleep is just an
Speaker 4: extra out bonus to that. So dreaming is fantastic.
Speaker 1: Got one last question before we go, there.
Speaker 8: Crystal or that different you're here the heads on? Throw
Speaker 8: on that booth? How come dogs sleep so much? There
Speaker 8: you go?
Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll throw that to Alex. Thanks Cranks Crustal,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's Alex.
Speaker 4: No, no, not my domain. I know about dogs with narcolepsy.
Speaker 4: That's quite common in some alsatians and dogs. You see
Speaker 4: them twitching on the hearth rug. They're twitching pretending they're sleeping,
Speaker 4: but they won't be able to get up and moved
Speaker 4: because they're dreaming. They're twitching in in rem sleep.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for call, Crystal. Okay, here's here's got some
Speaker 1: text to get onto as well. By the way, if
Speaker 1: you want to give us a call, we're time to squeeze,
Speaker 1: and maybe a call or two, so I jump on
Speaker 1: the blow. I wait on undred eighty ten eighty one
Speaker 1: here says this is from Nick. I know sleep trackers
Speaker 1: can't diagnose sleep app now, but can you see patterns
Speaker 1: in sleep tracking data that'sest a proper sleep apnar test
Speaker 1: would be worthwhile.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question. And some sleep trackers, in fact,
Speaker 4: I think more of them these days, are measuring oxygen levels,
Speaker 4: and if you find that the oxygen levels are dropping
Speaker 4: repeatedly through the night, you've probably got sleep ap near.
Speaker 4: So I think that's how they would determine whether you've
Speaker 4: got sleep apenar or not.
Speaker 1: Also if you wake up felling knacked, that as well,
Speaker 1: of course, Yeah, yeah, okay. Is another one. What's your
Speaker 1: view on sleeping too much from ten pm to eight am?
Speaker 1: After I wake at six am but decide to snooze
Speaker 1: until eight compared to if I get up at sex?
Speaker 1: In other words, ten or six naps till eight? Should
Speaker 1: they just get up at sex? What's too much? What's
Speaker 1: too long?
Speaker 4: Well, if you can go back to sleep and sleep
Speaker 4: for another couple of hours and some rarely I might
Speaker 4: say people need nine or ten hours sleep. Usually, if
Speaker 4: you need more sleep like nine or ten hours sleep,
Speaker 4: there's something wrong with the quality of sleep, either restless
Speaker 4: legs with periodicly movements or with his twitching legs, or
Speaker 4: you've got sleep apenar, so there's usually something wrong with that.
Speaker 4: But and of course if you're catching up, as we've
Speaker 4: mentioned before, if you've had some really bad nights, then
Speaker 4: getting an extra bit of sleep on a you know, Saturday,
Speaker 4: Sunday morning is fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Well, I read a text out from ethel
Speaker 1: before I remember about who I'm trying to remember and
Speaker 1: the context of I think it was my husband goes
Speaker 1: around sleep at two, wakes up at seven am, and
Speaker 1: has an how long nap later on the late morning? Yes,
Speaker 1: but here this is just following on from it gets
Speaker 1: home at around twelve thirty AMCT. This guy works hard
Speaker 1: and eats dinner. He used to have dinner at work,
Speaker 1: but still hunger when he gets home. Could that be
Speaker 1: impacting a sleep too? Can he eat that close to
Speaker 1: sleeping or should he train his body not need food
Speaker 1: after he gets home? So at the moment, it looks
Speaker 1: like he's eating at twelve thirty he's going to sleep
Speaker 1: at two and he's up at seven. Right, it's all
Speaker 1: over the place. He's a train wreck.
Speaker 4: Not ideal. I mean, I'd certainly a snake at that
Speaker 4: time would be fine, but you need probably at least
Speaker 4: two to three hours of digestion if you having your
Speaker 4: evening meal that time.
Speaker 1: He'd be better eating at work, wouldn't he.
Speaker 4: He'd be a bitter even if he had a snake
Speaker 4: at work. And then a snake with your term rather
Speaker 4: than one big meal would probably be a better word.
Speaker 1: So get a decent get it, get satisfry appetite earlier.
Speaker 1: And if you've just got the habit of sad for
Speaker 1: something to eat, maybe have.
Speaker 4: A snake of some sort. We piece of bread and
Speaker 4: a bit of jam er skitch and something like that, so.
Speaker 1: Or cheese if you fancy a nightmare. Just kidding, just kidding.
Speaker 1: We will be back in just a moment with Samantha.
Speaker 1: Will be next to the news talks.
Speaker 2: He be.
Speaker 1: It's ten and a half minutes to five, it's news talks,
Speaker 1: he'd be. Let's take another call on sleep with Alex
Speaker 1: Bartle's at the sleep Doctor from sleep Well Clinic.
Speaker 8: Samantha, Hello, Yes, hidea.
Speaker 5: I sleep, okay, but this scene thing happens approxy, maybe
Speaker 5: be three months. I'll be deep asleep and I can
Speaker 5: see a very vivid scene, and I can step into
Speaker 5: that scene and I can see every single detail magnified.
Speaker 5: I can see the threadbare carpet, the old man sitting
Speaker 5: by the fire, the tea and the cups. And I'm
Speaker 5: walking around in the saying, thinking, wow, look at this.
Speaker 5: And I'm not even asleep. And It'll last about one
Speaker 5: or two minutes and I'm awake. My eyes are open,
Speaker 5: and i can still see the scene in my head,
Speaker 5: and I think, oh my gosh, it's just so bright.
Speaker 5: And I wonder is that.
Speaker 1: Normal, Like it's like a vision rather than a dream.
Speaker 1: That's interesting?
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: Any chance Samantha is actually asleep, Alex.
Speaker 3: Well, it could be.
Speaker 4: Can you move at this stage? You can move your
Speaker 4: arms and hands and everything.
Speaker 5: I don't think I'm physically moving my body, but I'm
Speaker 5: in that scene.
Speaker 4: No, No, well, physically I'm looking at Because when you're
Speaker 4: in rem sleep, in the rapid I'm in the dream sleep,
Speaker 4: theoretically you can't move, so you're paralyzed for at least
Speaker 4: two hours of the night when we're actually theoretically in
Speaker 4: rem sleep. So either you're in that level one in
Speaker 4: that sort of half sleep half awake stage that any
Speaker 4: one or level non rem one, or you're dreaming, in
Speaker 4: which case you wouldn't be able to actually move.
Speaker 1: So do you So after you've had this you said
Speaker 1: us for two minutes? What happens after that vivid?
Speaker 5: I'm awake? Oh no, it's going now, and then I
Speaker 5: just get up, go to the toilet. It's gone. I've
Speaker 5: had it several times, different scenes. One's been a forest
Speaker 5: and it's been walking down a track and the leaves
Speaker 5: have been vibrantly green, you can see the veins in
Speaker 5: the leaves. Sounds terrific, But I wondered is that normal
Speaker 5: for someone to be able to actually step into the scene.
Speaker 4: Time of night is it? What time of night is it?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 5: I don't know, probably maybe.
Speaker 4: Four o'clock a bit later in the night than So
Speaker 4: it does sound like you either vivid dreaming or very
Speaker 4: very light sleep.
Speaker 3: And yeah, it sounds really cherish it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting Thanks for your course, Maantha. It's
Speaker 1: funny that the old vivid dreams, isn't it. I've had
Speaker 1: ones when I go back to times back, and I've
Speaker 1: had ones when I was back in Phantom of the Opera,
Speaker 1: but it's back in Fantom in the Opera, not back
Speaker 1: when I'm back then. But suddenly, somehow I've been called
Speaker 1: out of you know, called back to the show, and
Speaker 1: I've and everything's wrong and all.
Speaker 3: The things that i's anxiety.
Speaker 1: Is that anxiety?
Speaker 4: I mean there is this thing called lucid dreaming as well,
Speaker 4: which is where it's very very light. So you saw
Speaker 4: half all wake half a loose, so it sounds like
Speaker 4: you it's a bit of lucid dreaming.
Speaker 1: So I'm sort of mate because it's usually something's not
Speaker 1: right and it's something that's very familiar that I should
Speaker 1: do well. But I'm like, well, hang on a minute,
Speaker 1: I haven't haven't sung this stuff for six years.
Speaker 3: No, that's a that's a notemare.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well it's not that terrifying because there's some
Speaker 1: lovely aspects to it as well. But it's funny. But
Speaker 1: when I wake up, I'm like, I thank god, it's
Speaker 1: just do you have do you have?
Speaker 7: We?
Speaker 1: Do you have recurring scenarios that crop up, maybe even
Speaker 1: if it's just a couple of years apart. But a
Speaker 1: dream where you go on that one again?
Speaker 4: No, well, I know, not not consciously. I do dream
Speaker 4: pretty well. I don't have nightmares, but no, I dream okay,
Speaker 4: but I can't remember any particular theme that I have.
Speaker 4: I mean, they basically gone.
Speaker 1: I've had them when literally I'm still going to got
Speaker 1: about thirty seconds to go. When literally I've been the
Speaker 1: dream and I go on this dream. I quite like
Speaker 1: this one, and I'm conscious but not conscious. I've just
Speaker 1: been the dream going. Oh the story. Yeah, it's so good. Anyway,
Speaker 1: if people want to catch up with you with your
Speaker 1: Sleepwell clinic, is that sleep Well? What's the what's the website?
Speaker 3: Sleep Clinic dot co, dot dot.
Speaker 1: Excellent, Thanks Alex. We will be back shortly with smart
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Speaker 1: the weekend collective. Listen live to News Talks ed B
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