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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now the Leighton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast two hundred and ninety for June twenty five,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. Ramesh the Kur has contributed to a

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Speaker 2: number of podcasts, and with very good reason. A quick

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Speaker 2: survey of his career tells you that and I have

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Speaker 2: a great respect for his opinions. Now, we left recording

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Speaker 2: the interview until the very last minute in order to

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Speaker 2: be as up to date as possible. But first, there

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Speaker 2: is one aspect that we can cover now. That is

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Speaker 2: that the accusations that the military action taken by President

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Speaker 2: Trump is illegal constitutionally so based on the need for

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Speaker 2: a president to see congressional approval first. Now, while there's

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Speaker 2: a little more to it than that, we don't need

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Speaker 2: to dive into the minutia. Now, there are two articles

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Speaker 2: I'll referred to, and each of them is independent of

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Speaker 2: the other, but there is a bit of crossover as well.

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Speaker 2: George Treatment published War and the Constitution on June twenty three,

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Speaker 2: which would be June twenty four. Here, the US attack

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Speaker 2: on Iran's nuclear facilities has raised an important constitutional issue.

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Speaker 2: The US Constitution gives Congress the authority to declare war.

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Speaker 2: It was a wise and appropriate principle. Wars that perhaps

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Speaker 2: the most consequential actions a nation can take. They can

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Speaker 2: put a nation's very survival at risk and endangered military

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Speaker 2: and civilian lives. Wars also reshape the economy and must

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Speaker 2: bind nature place some limits on citizens constitutional right to

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Speaker 2: control government actions. Congress is designed to be the representative

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Speaker 2: and guaranteur of the right of citizens to govern themselves. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: the idea was that the US could not wage war

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Speaker 2: without the consent of Congress, nor avoid war if Congress

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Speaker 2: deemed it necessary. As commander in chief of the military,

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Speaker 2: the President could decide how a war would be waged,

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Speaker 2: but not whether there would be a war. The last

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Speaker 2: time the United States followed the Constitution in going to

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Speaker 2: war was in December nineteen forty one, after the Pearl

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Speaker 2: Harbor attack. Now again then goes into quite a bit

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Speaker 2: of history of how things have gone basically since then,

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Speaker 2: but in referring to time the time factor, he says,

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Speaker 2: But the nature of time and war has changed dramatically,

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Speaker 2: especially over the last twenty years. A modern Pearl Harbor

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Speaker 2: might defeat the US military in a few hours. Another

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Speaker 2: critical change is in communication and transparency. A congressional debate

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Speaker 2: over going to war in the eighteenth century could unfold

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Speaker 2: without the knowledge of the would be adversary. Even if

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Speaker 2: a spy were present, it would take substantial time to

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Speaker 2: relay the information. Today, by contrast, congressional debates are by

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Speaker 2: nature public. Even if a secret session were called, spies

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Speaker 2: in Washington could immediately alert the target nation, introducing a

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Speaker 2: danger of a preemptive strike on US forces. When you're

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Speaker 2: getting the picture, but he gets more specific. A congressional

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Speaker 2: debate over the strike on Iran's nuclear facilities would have

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Speaker 2: eliminated a fundamental necessity of war, that is, surprise. It

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Speaker 2: would also undermine a fundamental element in diplomacy. This reality has,

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Speaker 2: since the end of World War II, shifted the power

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Speaker 2: to initiate war from Congress to the commander in chief.

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Speaker 2: If war is imposed on the US, it must respond,

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Speaker 2: long before Congress is convened to debate and vote on

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Speaker 2: its response. If the US initiates war. Surprise is essential

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Speaker 2: for success. Further on, former declarations of war have become

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Speaker 2: globally obst elite. It talks about the last eighty years

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Speaker 2: Congress has been sidelined not by conspiracy, but by the

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Speaker 2: speed and complexity of modern warfare.

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Speaker 3: And there's there's quite a.

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Speaker 2: Bit more detail, including the nine to eleven attacks and examples.

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Speaker 2: The critical argument here is that at this point in history,

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Speaker 2: technology has rendered declarations of war obsolete. Checks and balances

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Speaker 2: are the foundation of the Constitution's architecture, and war is

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Speaker 2: the most serious of matters. This is not a matter

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Speaker 2: of Republicans or Democrats, conservatives or liberals. Perhaps a new

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Speaker 2: constitutional convention can solve this problem, but it is hard

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Speaker 2: to imagine a solution. Let's not forget that George Friedman

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Speaker 2: was a professor of war at the War College in

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Speaker 2: Pennsylvania for a number of years.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: There is a second opinion, and it's from somebody who

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Speaker 2: I who I have great respect for also, and that

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Speaker 2: is Jonathan Turley, who who is the Shapiro Professor of

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Speaker 2: Public Interest Law at George Washington University.

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Speaker 3: And the interesting thing.

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Speaker 2: About Turley, he gives a great deal. He's called on

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Speaker 2: by Congress to give opinions on a constant basis legal opinions,

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Speaker 2: and he appears on Fox under similar terms. But the

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Speaker 2: interesting thing is he is a registered Democrat, but he's

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Speaker 2: not one of your left wing nutters, and there's more

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Speaker 2: and more of those. So he wrote the Claude Reign's

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Speaker 2: School of Constitutional Law. Democrats denounce s reigning and attackers unconstitutional,

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Speaker 2: so said a minority leader, Chuck Schumer is particularly shocked.

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Speaker 2: That's where the Claude Reigned School of Constitutional Law comes from,

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Speaker 2: the movie where the word shocked was thrown about. Just

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Speaker 2: in case you didn't know, Chuck Schumer is particularly shocked.

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Speaker 2: Schumer insisted that no president should be allowed to unilaterally

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Speaker 2: march this nation into something as consequential as war, with

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Speaker 2: erratic threats and no strategy. Schumer is the same politician

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Speaker 2: who was silent or supportive in earlier unilateral attacks by

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Speaker 2: democratic presidents. In twenty eleven, Obama approved a massive military

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Speaker 2: campaign against Libya. He says, I represented a bipartisan group

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Speaker 2: of members of Congress challenging that action. We were unsuccessful,

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Speaker 2: as were such prior challenges I have long criticized. He

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Speaker 2: goes on the abandonment of the clear language of the

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Speaker 2: Constitution on the declaration of wars. Only eleven such declarations

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Speaker 2: have been made in our history. This has not happened

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Speaker 2: since World War II in nineteen forty two. Over one

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty five military campaigns have spanned from Korea

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Speaker 2: to Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. It is not a rule

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Speaker 2: honored solely in the breach. By the way, Hillary clipp

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Speaker 2: was also involved in one such action. The War Powers

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Speaker 2: Act has always been controversial and largely ineffectual. Presidents have

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Speaker 2: long asserted the inherent power to conduct such attacks under

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Speaker 2: their Article I authority as the designated Commander in Chief

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Speaker 2: of the Armed Forces. The WPA, which is the War

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Speaker 2: Powers Act, bars the use of armed forces in such

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Speaker 2: a conflict for more than sixty days without congressional authorization

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Speaker 2: for use of military force or a declaration of war

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Speaker 2: by the United States. There is a further thirty day

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Speaker 2: withdrawal period, and it gets very complicated with different days

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Speaker 2: for different things from what have you. Obama also defied

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Speaker 2: the War Powers Resolution on Syria. He actually did ask

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Speaker 2: for congressional authorization to take military action in that country

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Speaker 2: in twenty thirteen. Let me just repeat that for emphasis.

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Speaker 2: He actually did ask for congressional authorization to take military

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Speaker 2: action in that country in twenty thirteen, but Congress refused

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Speaker 2: to approve it.

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Speaker 3: So what happened?

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Speaker 2: He did it anyway, despite Congress especially denying authorization. Despite

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Speaker 2: Congress expressly denying authorization for the introduction of US armed forces.

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Speaker 2: Both Obama and Trump did precisely that. Trump was wise

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Speaker 2: though to notify Congress. However, what occurs after that is

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Speaker 2: anyone's guess. What remains has been little more than political

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Speaker 2: theater and one more paragraph toward the end. In the meantime,

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Speaker 2: the calls for impeachment are absurd given the prior actions

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Speaker 2: of presidents in using this very authority. Once again, some

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Speaker 2: Democrats appear intent on applying a different set of rules

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Speaker 2: for impeaching Trump than any of his predecessors. Trump can

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Speaker 2: cite both history and case law in allowing presidents to

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Speaker 2: take such actions. At most, the line over war powers

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Speaker 2: is tury. The Framers wanted impeachments to be based on

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Speaker 2: brightline rules in establishing high crimes and misdemeanors. This is

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Speaker 2: all part of the claud Rain's School of constitutional law.

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Speaker 2: Members will once again express their shock and disgust in

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Speaker 2: the use of the same authority that they once accepted

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Speaker 2: in prior Presidents Trump has a great number of risks

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Speaker 2: in this action from global military and economic consequences. The

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Speaker 2: War Powers Act is not one of them, if history

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Speaker 2: is any measure. So that's where we'll leave it, and

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Speaker 2: after a short break, Ramesh. Thekur Buckerlan is a natural

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Speaker 2: oral vaccine in a tabletorm called bacterial i sate. It'll

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Speaker 2: boost your natural protection against bacterial infections in your chest

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Speaker 2: and throat. A three day course of van Buckeland tablets

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Speaker 2: will help your body build up to three months of

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Speaker 2: immunity against bugs which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So who

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Speaker 2: can take bucolan well, the whole family from two years

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Speaker 2: of age and upwards. A course of Buckelan tablets offers

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Speaker 2: cost effective and safe protection from colds and chills. Protection

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Speaker 2: becomes effective a few days after you take buccolan and

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Speaker 2: lasts for up to three months following the three day course.

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Speaker 2: Buccolan can be taken throughout the cold season, over winter

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Speaker 2: or all year round. And remember Buckelan is not intended

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Speaker 2: as an alternative to influenza vaccination, but may be used

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Speaker 2: along with the flu vaccination for added protection. And keep

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Speaker 2: in mind that millions of doses have been taken by

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Speaker 2: Kiwis for over fifty years. Only available from your pharmacist.

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Speaker 2: Always read the label and users directed, and see your

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Speaker 2: doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker Auckland.

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Speaker 3: LATM.

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Speaker 2: Smith rames the Kur it's great to have you back

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Speaker 2: on the podcast, albeit that the subject matter is a

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Speaker 2: little disturbing.

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Speaker 3: I trust you well, well, thank you. I hope you're

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Speaker 3: will too.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, I want to start in a different sort of

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Speaker 2: way on this occasion. I received this email this morning,

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Speaker 2: which is why it's not in our mail room later on,

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Speaker 2: and I thought it wasn't a bad way to start,

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Speaker 2: this author inquires. He says, on the subject of Iran,

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Speaker 2: I have a couple of questions I haven't heard being asked,

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Speaker 2: why does an oil rich country need nuclear power? And

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Speaker 2: if he ran second question, if I Run has enriched

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Speaker 2: uranium to sixty percent, have they even started building the

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Speaker 2: nuclear power plant yet or are they just focusing on

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Speaker 2: an enrichment program. Now, with your background and experience with

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Speaker 2: nuclear matters, I'm guessing that you're in a position to

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Speaker 2: comment on that, we'll get onto your background shortly.

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Speaker 3: Sure, on the first question, why does it need nuclear

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Speaker 3: power for energy if it has such vast oil reserves,

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Speaker 3: I think the answer would be two fuld to that. Firstly,

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Speaker 3: it's always a sensible policy for any country to aim

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Speaker 3: for energy security by a mix of different sources of energy,

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Speaker 3: and nuclear if you can afford it and have the

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Speaker 3: technical means, plays an important part for pretty much every country,

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Speaker 3: except for self destructive limitations by Australia, where we have

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Speaker 3: one third of the world's known uranium reserves, are happy

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Speaker 3: to export it to mind it and export it to

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Speaker 3: other countries for economic reasons, but by law prohibited for ourselves.

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Speaker 3: So that's the first part. The second part, of course,

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Speaker 3: is nuclear is indeed the most green emission friendly sort

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Speaker 3: of energy we have in terms of its contributions which

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Speaker 3: are minimal, and it's it's essentially very safe, it's reliable,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't involve additional transmission lines and all that can

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Speaker 3: be tailored to existing grid and provides based load power,

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Speaker 3: so I think there are good reasons for that. However,

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Speaker 3: this is where you get into the second question. I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure that Iran has actually and I know it

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Speaker 3: as research reactors, research reactors. I don't know if it

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Speaker 3: has nuclear power plants or not. But that's in a

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Speaker 3: sense irrelevant because to get nuclear energy as a source

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Speaker 3: of power, you do not need to get beyond a

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Speaker 3: five percent enrichment at the most. The Iranians have been

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Speaker 3: enriching up to sixty percent. Now that's slightly misleading, because

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Speaker 3: what you have is if you take the benchmark of

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Speaker 3: the now abandoned twenty fifteen nuclear deal with their arm

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Speaker 3: they were limited to three point six seven percent enrichment,

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Speaker 3: which has no militarily sensitive implications whatsoever for weapons production.

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Speaker 3: To get to weapons grade, you need to enrich to

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Speaker 3: ninety percent. Now. The reason that is completely misleading is

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Speaker 3: it's not a linear progression in terms of the technical

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Speaker 3: challenges to go from five percent to ninety percent. Once

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Speaker 3: you cross five percent, and once you've got to twenty percent,

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Speaker 3: you have effectively overcome all the technical challenges, and then

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Speaker 3: it becomes a matter just of keeping on spinning the

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Speaker 3: centrifugures to purify the uranium. More and more so as

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Speaker 3: you separate what's called you two thirty eight and collect

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Speaker 3: you two thirty five, which is what you need to

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Speaker 3: make bombs, and so that's a matter of time rather

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Speaker 3: than any technical challenges remaining. So at sixty percent enrichment,

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Speaker 3: let me put it this way, you are effectively at

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Speaker 3: ninety nine percent weapon grade achievement already with your purification.

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Speaker 3: And that's why that is a concern. And no other

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Speaker 3: country has even tried or is engaged in this level

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Speaker 3: of purification for the purposes of getting energy. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: make any sense. So clearly the intent was to achieve

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Speaker 3: the capability. Having said that, we have to be very

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Speaker 3: clear and careful. Then in the last few days with

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Speaker 3: the strikes, there's been a lot of and you'll have

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Speaker 3: seen the reports on how Trump said that his Director

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Speaker 3: of National Intelligence, toul Sie Gabbard, essentially didn't know what

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Speaker 3: she was talking about, and she's wrong when she says

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Speaker 3: they are not weaponizing. I went back and checked on

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Speaker 3: her actual statement, and the intelligence community assessment on which

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Speaker 3: there is consensus across the fifteen or sixteen different agencies,

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Speaker 3: is quite clear cut. One Iran has not in fact

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Speaker 3: authorized the making of weapons. Two that said, they have

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Speaker 3: since the deal collapsed in twenty eighteen, broken free of

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Speaker 3: the constraints to the deal, and been engaged in expanding

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Speaker 3: the number of centrifugears, in increasing the purity of enrichment

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Speaker 3: all the way to sixty percent, in acquiring stockpile, in

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Speaker 3: upgrading the quality of centrifugures from the first generation to

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Speaker 3: which they limited to my advanced centrifugures. And none of

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Speaker 3: this makes any sense than as an an intent to

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Speaker 3: acquire the technical capability to proceed to rapid warm making

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Speaker 3: if and when the political authorities in charge direct them

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Speaker 3: to do so. So it's the two part thing there.

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Speaker 3: They were rapidly advancing to acquire the capability the materials,

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Speaker 3: building infrastructure, but there's no indication to suggest that they

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Speaker 3: had actually decided to cross that threshold, and not the

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Speaker 3: least because I suspect they wanted to avoid provoking precisely

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Speaker 3: this sort of military strikes. Okay, it's slightly complex, but

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Speaker 3: that's where it stood, all right.

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Speaker 2: So that gives rise to another question, how long would

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Speaker 2: it take to get the sixty percent to weapons grade

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Speaker 2: proper and utilize it.

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Speaker 3: That's a very interesting question. You get different answers to that,

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Speaker 3: but I think there is consensus that that becomes a

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Speaker 3: matter of weeks rather than months. It might be a

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Speaker 3: good point to go back to the twenty fifteen nuclear deal.

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Speaker 3: What had happened was, I think it is a good

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Speaker 3: starting point. Let's put this way between two thousand and three,

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Speaker 3: so that's the Iraq War and twenty thirteen when you

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Speaker 3: had the interim deal with Iran. In that period, the

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Speaker 3: number of centrifugures that Iran had multiplied from one hundred

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Speaker 3: and sixty three to nineteen thousand. Okay, this is under sanctions.

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Speaker 3: Before the deal of the nineteen thousand, around eleven thousand

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Speaker 3: were installed but not in operation, and around six seven

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Speaker 3: thousand whatever eleven and a half to seven and a

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Speaker 3: half were actually being operated. The deal got the numbers

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Speaker 3: of installed centrifugures by two thirds from nineteen thousand to

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Speaker 3: six thousand something, and the number of centrifugures in operation

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Speaker 3: cut it down to half to five four thousand, five

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Speaker 3: thousand something like that. From memory. More importantly, the stockpile

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Speaker 3: of envesed uranium at five percent purity or between five

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Speaker 3: and twenty percent from memory was cut by ninety eight percent,

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Speaker 3: from ten thousand prologram to three hundred kilograms. The Iraq

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Speaker 3: heavy reactive plant that was making usonium, which is the

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Speaker 3: second part of way to the bomb, that was closed

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Speaker 3: down entirely, the dismantled and separated fuel. The instructure touched

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Speaker 3: in infrastructure in other words, was put under international IAEA inspection.

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Speaker 3: IAEA inspectors were given unprecedented access for inspection, which could

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Speaker 3: be delayed via a small amount, but not indefinitely postponed

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Speaker 3: because there was but appeal procedures in place for that

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Speaker 3: as well. And the IAEA also put on electronic oxy

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Speaker 3: to monitor that the facilities that were under safe storage

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Speaker 3: were not in fact being breached. So there was an

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Speaker 3: effective dismantlement control inspection region put in place, and the

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Speaker 3: goal was essentially to widen to lend in the timeline

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Speaker 3: from detection to the capacity to acquire weapons if a

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Speaker 3: decision was made to cross, and that changed from a

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Speaker 3: matter of weeks or months to at least one year

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Speaker 3: during which you could do things in response. Since then

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Speaker 3: they have acquired more enriched material uranium. They have installed

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Speaker 3: more advanced centrifuges distributed between four THOUGH and the Tance,

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Speaker 3: mostly in four THO, but some also in the TANS,

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Speaker 3: and they built up the nuclear Science Center in Isfahan,

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Speaker 3: particularly with Chani's help. So we believe that the capacity

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Speaker 3: has reduced to the timeline to a matter of weeks,

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Speaker 3: maybe three weeks, maybe just over a month, but not

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Speaker 3: much longer than that. And after the strikes this has

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Speaker 3: lended again possibly two one to two years, but had

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Speaker 3: not been eliminated, and that was the concern that they

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Speaker 3: wanted to degrade its capability, so that we the outside

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Speaker 3: of the international community, and particularly Israel because it's the

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Speaker 3: most exposed to this, had time to react to that,

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Speaker 3: and that's again where we think things stand at the moment.

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Speaker 3: To be clear, for the have been attacked by the

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Speaker 3: so called MOP, the massive ordnance penetrator, the GBU fifty

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Speaker 3: seven is a technical name, which is a thirteen thousand

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Speaker 3: or thirteen and a half thousand kilogram bomb with the

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Speaker 3: biggest ordinance we have in the world. It's been used

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Speaker 3: by the way previously they used in Afghanistan a smaller

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Speaker 3: version of that. I forget what it's called GVU forty

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Speaker 3: three or something. So this is the first time it's

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Speaker 3: been used and it's been successful, but it will take

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Speaker 3: time to assess the damage with any reliability, and they

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Speaker 3: had sufficient advance warning that we have good reason to

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Speaker 3: believe that most of the material in which uranium and

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Speaker 3: the tooling require the infrastructure was in fact moved out

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Speaker 3: Furdo and taken somewhere else. They're called that. I think

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Speaker 3: they're talking about another mountain fortress called Pickaxe or something

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Speaker 3: which people have suspected but not known about before this.

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Speaker 3: So the capability has been, as I said, severely degraded,

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Speaker 3: but Iran has retained the capacity to reconstitute the program.

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Speaker 3: The regime is still intact, it's not been toppled. And Iran,

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Speaker 3: I think, was so badly weakened that his response to

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Speaker 3: the US strikes was symbolic more than substantives. And they

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Speaker 3: gave advance war in the Americans that they were willing

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Speaker 3: to hit their base in Qatar. So all the signs

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Speaker 3: are that Iran was desperate to take a face saving

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Speaker 3: off ramp, which they have taken. We know that this

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Speaker 3: strike on Iran using American military capability and technical capability

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Speaker 3: has been the goal and ambition of a Prime Minister

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Speaker 3: nad and Yahoo for over a decade to before the

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Speaker 3: Iran dealing in twenty fifteen. Left alone. The Hamas attack

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Speaker 3: in Clover twenty twenty three. And in a sense you

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Speaker 3: could argue that they have succeeded in maneuvering on manipulating

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Speaker 3: Trump into doing their job for them, Hence the F

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Speaker 3: bomb word by Trump, but his frustration when the ceasefire

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Speaker 3: began to be violated Toby both sides, and he just

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Speaker 3: blew up in exasperation. So surprisingly, Trump has been more

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Speaker 3: effective than any predecessor, both hitting, hitting hard, restoring the

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Speaker 3: credibility of American deterrence if you like, and yet at

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Speaker 3: the same time, so far at least limiting his involvement

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Speaker 3: to what he wanted to do in time and in targets.

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Speaker 3: They didn't hit all the targets that they could have.

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Speaker 3: They haven't destroyed Iran's capacity to export oil, and they've

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Speaker 3: given them ways out provided they don't actually start weaponizing

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Speaker 3: and reconstituting it Israel wanted. More So, Trump has been

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Speaker 3: just as exasperated at Israel. So there's some signs that

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Speaker 3: Trump doesn't deserve more credit than perhaps he's been given.

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Speaker 3: He's made it difficult for the Democrats domestically to really

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Speaker 3: criticize him on this. Nonetheless, I think you know, if

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Speaker 3: you're dealing with the Middle East, the ghosts of history

363
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Speaker 3: are very prominent, and we need to be a bit

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Speaker 3: careful of the sohol law of unintended and particularly perverse consequences.

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Speaker 2: Let's get onto that shortly. Was Trump overreaching when he

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Speaker 2: made the announcement of the the bombings initially overreaching in

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Speaker 2: what sense in that had had completely wiped out?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I don't think there's evidence to back that up.

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Speaker 3: But I mean, Trump is Trump. We know he's moombastic.

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Speaker 3: He you know, any deal he's done is never been

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Speaker 3: a deal like that in history et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 3: and stuff like that, and certainly in the American system.

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Speaker 3: I think people discount the element of Nonetheless, the substance

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Speaker 3: of his claim is correct. He acted decisively, he gave

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Speaker 3: them time to So, you know, one of the good

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Speaker 3: things about what Trump has done we haven't seen any

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Speaker 3: evidence of significant, if any, civilian casualties. So what he

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Speaker 3: did was a mix of strikes using deception, a misdirection

379
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Speaker 3: in terms of timing and calendar decoy is being sent

380
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Speaker 3: over Hawaii when in fact the direction of the travelers

381
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Speaker 3: the other way around, A mix of the what I

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Speaker 3: think there was seven B two planes involved the two

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Speaker 3: bombs eats, so fourteen of these mops, the GBU fifty

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Speaker 3: seven plus Tomahawk missiles fired from c essentially at Isfahan facilities,

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Speaker 3: the scientific infrastructure, and then saying we're not going to

386
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Speaker 3: do anymore unless you choose to escalate. The fear of

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00:27:10,693 --> 00:27:16,453
Speaker 3: attritional escalation for the moment has abated. It's controlled and

388
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Speaker 3: managed escalation where they have demonstrated both the intent and

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Speaker 3: the capability. Helped im miserably by the fact that the

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00:27:25,453 --> 00:27:29,613
Speaker 3: air differences and the missile launches were totally destroyed and

391
00:27:29,653 --> 00:27:34,413
Speaker 3: degraded by Israel in the two weeks leading up to

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Speaker 3: the US attack, and the fact that, as I said,

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00:27:38,453 --> 00:27:46,293
Speaker 3: Iran's retaliation was limited and signaled in advanced The underlying,

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00:27:46,573 --> 00:27:51,373
Speaker 3: more important and more crucial strategic signaling is we don't

395
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Speaker 3: wish to escalate. We accept what you have done, and okay,

396
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Speaker 3: it's a defeat for us, it's a meliation for us,

397
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Speaker 3: but we retain the capability, and that gives a sufficient

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Speaker 3: face that we can accept it. That seems to me

399
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Speaker 3: to be the condition at the moment. One other thing,

400
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Speaker 3: I think the most important recent example of this law

401
00:28:17,813 --> 00:28:23,253
Speaker 3: unintended purpose consequence ironically enough is the Hamas attack on

402
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Speaker 3: seventh October twenty twenty three. That was barbaric, that was savage,

403
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Speaker 3: And on the military front, I think they achieved more

404
00:28:33,933 --> 00:28:36,933
Speaker 3: success than they would have dared to dream of. On

405
00:28:36,973 --> 00:28:41,693
Speaker 3: the political side and strategic site, it has been a

406
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Speaker 3: tremendous setback for the entire cause. Hamas has not quite finished,

407
00:28:47,453 --> 00:28:50,653
Speaker 3: but close to it has. Vola is nearly finished in Iran,

408
00:28:51,493 --> 00:28:54,693
Speaker 3: Asad is no longer even in serior, let alone in power.

409
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Speaker 3: He is hiding somewhere in Russia. Buthis are still around,

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Speaker 3: but badly affected. Israel has demonstrated unbelievable capability in terms

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Speaker 3: of intel, in penetration and precision attacks using pages and

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00:29:12,013 --> 00:29:18,053
Speaker 3: talkies and the airplanes and extraordinarily extraordinary attack So it's

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00:29:18,093 --> 00:29:20,733
Speaker 3: so it's king of all the surveys in that sense,

414
00:29:21,413 --> 00:29:24,853
Speaker 3: and they have been able to attack Iran directly and

415
00:29:25,053 --> 00:29:29,693
Speaker 3: shown that Iran is, in fact, compared to Israel, still

416
00:29:29,693 --> 00:29:31,933
Speaker 3: a paper tiger, but you know, you can get paper

417
00:29:31,933 --> 00:29:35,293
Speaker 3: cups as well, which are not very pleasant always. So

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00:29:35,733 --> 00:29:39,773
Speaker 3: all that helped Israel achieved complete air dominance and the

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00:29:39,773 --> 00:29:42,613
Speaker 3: Americans were able to come in and attack without fearing

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Speaker 3: any damage. To themselves. So it's a good one two

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Speaker 3: combination in team. But do not under estimate the extent

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Speaker 3: to which Israel is still dependent upon American goodwill as

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Speaker 3: well as the American supply chain.

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Speaker 2: That's that is unquestionable. Look let me let me just

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Speaker 2: let me put it this way. Let me ask you this.

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Speaker 2: With the history that's that's what now forty six years

427
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Speaker 2: old of Iran Tehran, Yeah, and the developments that have

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Speaker 2: taken place on the nuclear front and the way they've

429
00:30:28,173 --> 00:30:33,573
Speaker 2: played their game. Out of one hundred, how much would

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Speaker 2: you trust the present administration.

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Speaker 3: Of the US now in Iran? I wouldn't you? See?

432
00:30:44,893 --> 00:30:48,613
Speaker 3: This is a problem. There is no reason to trust

433
00:30:48,773 --> 00:30:52,173
Speaker 3: either the United States or Iran in terms of promises

434
00:30:52,213 --> 00:30:56,813
Speaker 3: made and formal agreement signed. And this is where we

435
00:30:56,933 --> 00:31:00,693
Speaker 3: get back to the twenty fifteen deed. It was a

436
00:31:00,813 --> 00:31:05,493
Speaker 3: multilaterally negotiated deed which the Americans led on their site,

437
00:31:05,813 --> 00:31:08,853
Speaker 3: involved all the five permanent members of Security Council plus

438
00:31:08,853 --> 00:31:15,293
Speaker 3: Germany and the EU. The deal was then unanimously endorsed

439
00:31:15,293 --> 00:31:20,533
Speaker 3: by the Security Council in twenty fifteen. It involved dismantlement

440
00:31:20,653 --> 00:31:24,573
Speaker 3: and suspension of Iran's program in return for sanctions lifting

441
00:31:24,893 --> 00:31:29,493
Speaker 3: and assistance with nuclear weapons with the sorry lifting of

442
00:31:29,533 --> 00:31:34,213
Speaker 3: sanctions and development of the economic development. And there was

443
00:31:34,253 --> 00:31:39,053
Speaker 3: a ten to fifteen year period in which there was

444
00:31:39,093 --> 00:31:44,093
Speaker 3: an opportunity to pursue diplomatic pathway to the things. This

445
00:31:44,293 --> 00:31:50,613
Speaker 3: was unilaterally abandoned by the United States under Trump one

446
00:31:51,533 --> 00:31:58,493
Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen, the IAE had repeatedly certified that Iran

447
00:31:58,853 --> 00:32:01,933
Speaker 3: was in compliance with the deal. So in twenty eighteen

448
00:32:02,013 --> 00:32:05,133
Speaker 3: is the US that puts herself into a position of

449
00:32:05,213 --> 00:32:10,973
Speaker 3: non compliance. And I've seen states from Ayado La Kameni

450
00:32:11,253 --> 00:32:15,373
Speaker 3: after that, as well as from the North Koreans saying

451
00:32:15,373 --> 00:32:18,253
Speaker 3: this means you cannot trust the Americans to honor a

452
00:32:18,293 --> 00:32:21,613
Speaker 3: deal that has been signed and other other parties and

453
00:32:21,813 --> 00:32:26,373
Speaker 3: compliance with it. You take the example of Kadafi in

454
00:32:26,493 --> 00:32:31,053
Speaker 3: Libya who agreed to internationally supervised nuclear disarmament and then

455
00:32:31,213 --> 00:32:37,013
Speaker 3: was attacked, taken out, and killed in twenty eleven. At

456
00:32:37,053 --> 00:32:39,493
Speaker 3: the time that Trump pulls out, he was engaged in

457
00:32:39,533 --> 00:32:42,773
Speaker 3: discussions with the North Koreans, and essentially the North Koreans

458
00:32:42,773 --> 00:32:45,733
Speaker 3: and the Iranians and the Russians and Chinese said, what

459
00:32:45,893 --> 00:32:48,693
Speaker 3: is the point of even entering into negotiations with the

460
00:32:48,773 --> 00:32:52,053
Speaker 3: US when a successor administration can just pull out and

461
00:32:52,093 --> 00:32:58,053
Speaker 3: there's no consequences for them. So this effort at abandoning

462
00:32:58,093 --> 00:33:02,093
Speaker 3: agreements solemnly made after years of negotiation, that is a

463
00:33:02,093 --> 00:33:06,173
Speaker 3: problem on both sides. And the longer term consequence of

464
00:33:06,213 --> 00:33:12,333
Speaker 3: this is going to be whichever regime is in power

465
00:33:12,413 --> 00:33:14,533
Speaker 3: in Iran, and we have to be careful on that

466
00:33:14,533 --> 00:33:19,933
Speaker 3: that it's not personalized or individualized to one leader or regime.

467
00:33:20,853 --> 00:33:25,573
Speaker 3: Whoever is in power in Iran and other countries are

468
00:33:25,613 --> 00:33:30,773
Speaker 3: going to conclude one the regional bully in the Middle

469
00:33:30,773 --> 00:33:35,533
Speaker 3: East has been defanked good. The overpowering bully in the

470
00:33:35,573 --> 00:33:38,853
Speaker 3: global neighborhood is out of control. We better look after

471
00:33:38,893 --> 00:33:42,453
Speaker 3: ourselves and should we then look at acquiring by Hoko

472
00:33:42,493 --> 00:33:46,853
Speaker 3: by Krok nuclear weapons for ourselves. So it's that two

473
00:33:46,973 --> 00:33:49,533
Speaker 3: stages thing that varies me as well. That the message

474
00:33:49,533 --> 00:33:53,013
Speaker 3: sent out is we don't care about international law. We

475
00:33:53,093 --> 00:33:56,453
Speaker 3: don't care about international rules, We don't care about agreements

476
00:33:56,453 --> 00:34:00,453
Speaker 3: that we have negotiated and led on. We have the bomb,

477
00:34:00,613 --> 00:34:03,133
Speaker 3: we have the military power. You don't like it tough

478
00:34:04,093 --> 00:34:07,373
Speaker 3: That not necessarily a good message to send. So I

479
00:34:07,373 --> 00:34:10,693
Speaker 3: feel very conflicted in this sense. And in that sense also,

480
00:34:10,773 --> 00:34:16,653
Speaker 3: I think actually going directly after Iran and targeting nuclear

481
00:34:16,693 --> 00:34:21,973
Speaker 3: scientists and the political leadership is a mixed message being

482
00:34:21,973 --> 00:34:27,813
Speaker 3: sent in terms of however, you're into the necessity of

483
00:34:27,893 --> 00:34:30,813
Speaker 3: some sort of a rules based order that is governed

484
00:34:30,853 --> 00:34:31,493
Speaker 3: by norms.

485
00:34:31,893 --> 00:34:37,373
Speaker 2: So taking all that into account, do you congratulate Donald

486
00:34:37,373 --> 00:34:40,013
Speaker 2: Trump for what he's achieved or otherwise?

487
00:34:41,413 --> 00:34:46,733
Speaker 3: No? I do, And I hope he he has the

488
00:34:46,973 --> 00:34:50,893
Speaker 3: self belief and he doesn't care for criticisms and whatever

489
00:34:50,973 --> 00:34:53,453
Speaker 3: other people say, so he may just go by his

490
00:34:53,493 --> 00:34:57,413
Speaker 3: gut instinct and say, you know, I've taken the position

491
00:34:57,493 --> 00:35:00,213
Speaker 3: just midpoint between the military adventurism of the New York

492
00:35:00,293 --> 00:35:06,053
Speaker 3: on Hawks and the pacifism and passivity of people racked

493
00:35:06,093 --> 00:35:10,213
Speaker 3: by indecisiveness and unable to respond challenges. And he said,

494
00:35:10,293 --> 00:35:15,293
Speaker 3: you know, not only my threats credible, my deadlines are credible.

495
00:35:15,613 --> 00:35:18,133
Speaker 3: You don't respond by the deadline have saidn to you

496
00:35:18,653 --> 00:35:21,453
Speaker 3: I have set for you. Then we will react, and

497
00:35:21,493 --> 00:35:24,893
Speaker 3: we will react with the means and at a place

498
00:35:24,893 --> 00:35:27,493
Speaker 3: of our choosing, with targets of our choosing. So he's

499
00:35:27,533 --> 00:35:32,773
Speaker 3: restored that credibility, and that is good. I think restoring

500
00:35:32,813 --> 00:35:38,333
Speaker 3: the timeline between having the capability and weaponization that is good.

501
00:35:38,373 --> 00:35:40,773
Speaker 3: I mean, there's no question but that Iran has been

502
00:35:40,773 --> 00:35:43,533
Speaker 3: a destabilizing force in the least and the number of

503
00:35:43,573 --> 00:35:48,253
Speaker 3: statement statements it has made about destroying Israel. You can't

504
00:35:48,293 --> 00:35:51,213
Speaker 3: blame Israel, given its particular history and what happened in

505
00:35:51,293 --> 00:35:55,493
Speaker 3: October twenty three from being genuinely concerned about that. But

506
00:35:55,653 --> 00:35:59,773
Speaker 3: having said that, the danger for Israel has been it

507
00:35:59,813 --> 00:36:06,053
Speaker 3: has relied almost entirely on military means, and I think

508
00:36:08,693 --> 00:36:11,893
Speaker 3: there has to be a much more sustained effort, with

509
00:36:11,973 --> 00:36:16,853
Speaker 3: pressure on all sides to resolve the underlying political problem,

510
00:36:17,533 --> 00:36:23,373
Speaker 3: which is, how do you reconcile the existence of Israel

511
00:36:24,933 --> 00:36:29,133
Speaker 3: and it's right to exist as a legitimate state with

512
00:36:29,333 --> 00:36:33,813
Speaker 3: diplomatic relations with its neighbors, with some sort of recognition

513
00:36:34,933 --> 00:36:39,693
Speaker 3: of the decades of suffering of the Palestinians, Because you

514
00:36:39,773 --> 00:36:47,453
Speaker 3: cannot have a regional solution that depends primarily upon humiliating

515
00:36:47,453 --> 00:36:52,173
Speaker 3: the Palestinians and leaving them weak and disenfranchised and marcialized,

516
00:36:53,373 --> 00:36:56,493
Speaker 3: and you cannot have a solution that ignores Israel's legitimate

517
00:36:56,573 --> 00:37:01,053
Speaker 3: rights to existence within scure borders in peaceful relations. Now

518
00:37:01,093 --> 00:37:04,573
Speaker 3: there's no evidence that Israel is privately accept that, provided

519
00:37:04,613 --> 00:37:07,573
Speaker 3: the other side is as well. But I don't think

520
00:37:07,693 --> 00:37:12,773
Speaker 3: that undermines my claim about the one country that has

521
00:37:13,213 --> 00:37:17,653
Speaker 3: over the decades kept expanding its effective borders defacto borders

522
00:37:17,813 --> 00:37:20,373
Speaker 3: is in fact Israel. It hasn't drunk. So I think

523
00:37:20,373 --> 00:37:23,733
Speaker 3: we need to somehow try and square that circle. It's

524
00:37:23,773 --> 00:37:26,093
Speaker 3: not easy, and I've said to you before, you know,

525
00:37:26,293 --> 00:37:29,533
Speaker 3: if you think you understand the Middle East, you've been misinformed.

526
00:37:30,573 --> 00:37:35,013
Speaker 3: It's the one thing that has eluded everyone. But because

527
00:37:35,053 --> 00:37:42,693
Speaker 3: of his peculiar individual traits, Trump potentially has a better

528
00:37:42,773 --> 00:37:48,253
Speaker 3: opportunity to achieve some lasting legacy there than most precedents

529
00:37:48,293 --> 00:37:50,373
Speaker 3: I can think of in my time, which goes back

530
00:37:50,413 --> 00:37:53,853
Speaker 3: a long way. So yes, I do congratulate him, including

531
00:37:53,893 --> 00:37:56,853
Speaker 3: for his restraint and not expanding it and the fact

532
00:37:56,893 --> 00:38:00,333
Speaker 3: that he has expressed his exasperation publicly with regard to

533
00:38:00,413 --> 00:38:03,373
Speaker 3: Israel as well. That may give some hope to the

534
00:38:03,413 --> 00:38:06,293
Speaker 3: other side that, okay, maybe we should look for a deal.

535
00:38:06,853 --> 00:38:09,453
Speaker 3: And this is a rare opportunity because he's only got

536
00:38:09,493 --> 00:38:11,453
Speaker 3: another tween and a half years or so to go,

537
00:38:12,253 --> 00:38:14,333
Speaker 3: So it depends on how it works out. From now

538
00:38:14,373 --> 00:38:20,573
Speaker 3: but essentially short term unqualified congratulations, medium to long term

539
00:38:21,733 --> 00:38:25,693
Speaker 3: wait and see, but still unbalanced on the positive rather

540
00:38:25,773 --> 00:38:28,853
Speaker 3: negative side, would be my assessment, and.

541
00:38:28,893 --> 00:38:32,293
Speaker 2: It's a very good assessment. Just going back to Israel

542
00:38:32,373 --> 00:38:37,333
Speaker 2: for for momentarily anyway, the the what do they call it,

543
00:38:37,373 --> 00:38:42,133
Speaker 2: the twin two nation state states, its two.

544
00:38:42,013 --> 00:38:46,373
Speaker 3: State solution, two state solution. It's it's out. I don't

545
00:38:46,453 --> 00:38:50,653
Speaker 3: understand why people are obsessed on it and on it. Well,

546
00:38:50,773 --> 00:38:52,973
Speaker 3: neither it still wants it, nor do the other side.

547
00:38:53,373 --> 00:38:56,053
Speaker 2: Well, I'm very pleased to hear you say that, because

548
00:38:56,453 --> 00:38:58,973
Speaker 2: it's been pushed time and time again, and it will

549
00:38:59,373 --> 00:39:02,173
Speaker 2: it will still be pushed. It is, it is being

550
00:39:02,173 --> 00:39:03,453
Speaker 2: promoted actually.

551
00:39:03,253 --> 00:39:05,293
Speaker 3: Yeah, including by my governments here. Yeah.

552
00:39:06,173 --> 00:39:11,773
Speaker 2: And it's a it's it's an ignorant approach, is mys

553
00:39:11,813 --> 00:39:12,653
Speaker 2: my terminology?

554
00:39:14,453 --> 00:39:17,173
Speaker 3: How can how can you just it's a fact denying approach.

555
00:39:17,973 --> 00:39:18,893
Speaker 3: There you go, that'll do.

556
00:39:19,293 --> 00:39:21,813
Speaker 2: But if you wanted to put it into into the

557
00:39:21,853 --> 00:39:25,653
Speaker 2: sort of local vernacular of anyway.

558
00:39:24,813 --> 00:39:30,293
Speaker 3: Why why would you expect a country or a.

559
00:39:31,733 --> 00:39:39,013
Speaker 2: Or a an attitude and a policy and a belief

560
00:39:39,613 --> 00:39:42,293
Speaker 2: that one country needs to be swept off the face

561
00:39:42,293 --> 00:39:46,173
Speaker 2: of the earth and expect them to live side by side.

562
00:39:46,653 --> 00:39:49,093
Speaker 3: Now, okay, let me exp I mean, I give you

563
00:39:49,133 --> 00:39:51,493
Speaker 3: a very short and blunt answer, but let me just

564
00:39:53,213 --> 00:39:55,733
Speaker 3: go back into my professor ordify, I got diplomatic one.

565
00:39:57,213 --> 00:39:59,453
Speaker 3: I think there are two factors in response to what

566
00:39:59,493 --> 00:40:04,053
Speaker 3: he said. Firstly, we have to go back to October

567
00:40:04,093 --> 00:40:08,653
Speaker 3: twenty change its feet, because until then we'd have repeated

568
00:40:09,333 --> 00:40:15,533
Speaker 3: cycles of attacks and retaliations, and each time Israel has

569
00:40:15,533 --> 00:40:21,133
Speaker 3: had to re establish its escalation dominance, re established deterrence,

570
00:40:21,213 --> 00:40:25,253
Speaker 3: but also deterrence based on escalation dominance, the capacity, the

571
00:40:25,373 --> 00:40:30,693
Speaker 3: demonstrated and known capacity to control every run of the

572
00:40:30,773 --> 00:40:33,573
Speaker 3: escalation ladder that the other side wanted to go to.

573
00:40:33,733 --> 00:40:37,373
Speaker 3: So Israel was military dominant, and given the population dynamics,

574
00:40:37,413 --> 00:40:39,933
Speaker 3: even if you look at Israel and Iran, what you've

575
00:40:39,933 --> 00:40:42,173
Speaker 3: got nine million or so in Israel and ninety million

576
00:40:42,213 --> 00:40:45,533
Speaker 3: in Iran, so it's only one tenth year in in population.

577
00:40:45,973 --> 00:40:47,813
Speaker 3: And then you had all the others that did the

578
00:40:47,853 --> 00:40:51,893
Speaker 3: asymmetry is very powerful. And then narrow geographics, all that exists. Okay,

579
00:40:52,333 --> 00:40:55,573
Speaker 3: so they'd gone through it started repeatedly, but what they

580
00:40:55,613 --> 00:40:59,013
Speaker 3: experienced in October twenty three, and I don't think most

581
00:40:59,093 --> 00:41:03,053
Speaker 3: Western publics have really registered the fact that that actually

582
00:41:03,173 --> 00:41:06,973
Speaker 3: was a mini holocaust. And the way to grasp it

583
00:41:07,053 --> 00:41:13,893
Speaker 3: is take the entire American casualty tour in Vietnam War

584
00:41:13,933 --> 00:41:18,493
Speaker 3: from start to finish, from the early sixties, mid sixties

585
00:41:18,933 --> 00:41:25,933
Speaker 3: through to whenever it was until they came out of Vietnam.

586
00:41:26,293 --> 00:41:29,653
Speaker 3: The entire casualty was around fifty to fifty four thousand

587
00:41:29,653 --> 00:41:33,133
Speaker 3: American troops killed soldier skilled in that war. If you

588
00:41:33,213 --> 00:41:37,693
Speaker 3: scale up israel population to the US, then what happened

589
00:41:37,693 --> 00:41:41,453
Speaker 3: on seventh October was not an Israeli version of nine

590
00:41:41,453 --> 00:41:45,213
Speaker 3: to eleven. It was as if all the American casualties

591
00:41:45,213 --> 00:41:49,693
Speaker 3: in Vietnam was suffered in one day. That's the scale

592
00:41:49,733 --> 00:41:52,693
Speaker 3: we're talking about. Plus the fact that these were not

593
00:41:52,813 --> 00:41:59,213
Speaker 3: primarily military, they were primarily civilian casualties, and the grotesqueness

594
00:41:59,333 --> 00:42:03,493
Speaker 3: of the attacks and the sexualized violence and then the

595
00:42:03,533 --> 00:42:09,173
Speaker 3: hostage taken. So you have to get trying grasp that

596
00:42:09,413 --> 00:42:14,093
Speaker 3: and internalize that to understand the trauma of that on

597
00:42:14,253 --> 00:42:18,173
Speaker 3: Israel and what it did was, I think it tripped

598
00:42:18,493 --> 00:42:24,813
Speaker 3: their internal taculus that deterrence. Restoring deterrence is no longer enough.

599
00:42:25,373 --> 00:42:27,773
Speaker 3: We have to go all out and defeat the enemy.

600
00:42:29,253 --> 00:42:33,493
Speaker 3: And they've defeated the enemy piecemeal, compartmentalized the threats, went

601
00:42:33,573 --> 00:42:38,693
Speaker 3: after them one by one, first Hamas, then Hesbela, then Iran.

602
00:42:39,933 --> 00:42:43,293
Speaker 3: So from that point of view, that is a change

603
00:42:43,413 --> 00:42:47,013
Speaker 3: in the fundamental underlying strategy on which the secrecy arrests,

604
00:42:47,733 --> 00:42:50,493
Speaker 3: and you can't blame them for that second factor. That

605
00:42:50,613 --> 00:42:54,173
Speaker 3: is important, and that is important for our Western publics

606
00:42:54,173 --> 00:43:00,613
Speaker 3: to come to terms with. I think the widespread anti

607
00:43:00,653 --> 00:43:08,173
Speaker 3: Israel descending into anti Semitic demonstrations on our streets and

608
00:43:08,373 --> 00:43:11,493
Speaker 3: within our political system now has had the effect of

609
00:43:11,533 --> 00:43:15,693
Speaker 3: bringing home to israelis that element of strategic and loneliness.

610
00:43:15,973 --> 00:43:19,893
Speaker 3: They paid a very heavy price for that in the Holocaust,

611
00:43:20,733 --> 00:43:23,493
Speaker 3: and it meant we are on our own and we

612
00:43:23,573 --> 00:43:27,293
Speaker 3: had better take care of this potential, not just existing

613
00:43:28,093 --> 00:43:32,013
Speaker 3: but potential threats and possible threats in the future as

614
00:43:32,093 --> 00:43:34,813
Speaker 3: much as we can now. And if you're going to

615
00:43:34,813 --> 00:43:39,133
Speaker 3: be criticized like this anywhere, we might as well make

616
00:43:39,173 --> 00:43:41,213
Speaker 3: sure that the criticism is worth it in terms of

617
00:43:41,253 --> 00:43:46,253
Speaker 3: the security achievements we can implement today. So I think

618
00:43:46,893 --> 00:43:50,373
Speaker 3: are the demonstrations and the widespread nature of the demonstrations

619
00:43:50,733 --> 00:43:54,773
Speaker 3: has been counterproductive in freeing Israel of trying to worry

620
00:43:54,813 --> 00:43:57,973
Speaker 3: about Western public opinion. It made them more determined to

621
00:43:58,013 --> 00:44:00,373
Speaker 3: do what they want to do on their own, regardless

622
00:44:00,373 --> 00:44:03,333
Speaker 3: of the cost in pr if you like in the West.

623
00:44:04,093 --> 00:44:07,133
Speaker 3: So that if we don't understand that, I don't think

624
00:44:07,133 --> 00:44:11,453
Speaker 3: we understand that dynamics of the Israeli decision making, and

625
00:44:11,493 --> 00:44:12,973
Speaker 3: therefore you're not going to be able to.

626
00:44:14,493 --> 00:44:16,253
Speaker 2: Moderate that if you want to work all right, So

627
00:44:16,613 --> 00:44:22,213
Speaker 2: just just side stepping here, momentarily explain to me, and

628
00:44:22,293 --> 00:44:24,213
Speaker 2: I have a feeling it won't take it long. But

629
00:44:24,333 --> 00:44:27,413
Speaker 2: explain to me how the imbecile who won the recent

630
00:44:27,533 --> 00:44:31,733
Speaker 2: Australian election, why did even look hasn't even looked apparently

631
00:44:32,773 --> 00:44:37,053
Speaker 2: at the at the at the videos, the pictures that

632
00:44:37,093 --> 00:44:42,133
Speaker 2: were taken of that day on October seven, might even

633
00:44:42,333 --> 00:44:43,733
Speaker 2: might even go near them.

634
00:44:44,053 --> 00:44:46,973
Speaker 3: They haven't done that, neither he nor the Foreign minister.

635
00:44:47,173 --> 00:44:52,613
Speaker 3: They haven't. They haven't been to this southern Israel that

636
00:44:53,093 --> 00:44:56,973
Speaker 3: was unforgivable. I think they should have gone. I think

637
00:44:58,413 --> 00:45:02,973
Speaker 3: you know there are ways of dealing with allies. The

638
00:45:03,933 --> 00:45:06,973
Speaker 3: look that I mean not to use the words you

639
00:45:07,133 --> 00:45:10,293
Speaker 3: used with regard to Albin easy, but I don't have

640
00:45:10,333 --> 00:45:13,933
Speaker 3: a very high opinion of him. I think he is amiable,

641
00:45:14,293 --> 00:45:17,493
Speaker 3: but he's totally out of his depth with the foreign

642
00:45:17,493 --> 00:45:20,253
Speaker 3: minister of any wrong. I think she's confident, but this

643
00:45:20,413 --> 00:45:23,933
Speaker 3: was never her portfolio in opposition, and I think on

644
00:45:23,973 --> 00:45:26,333
Speaker 3: this she has been learning on the job and is

645
00:45:26,373 --> 00:45:28,733
Speaker 3: still out of her debt as well. I think, yes,

646
00:45:28,813 --> 00:45:30,493
Speaker 3: they should have gone there, should have watched the video.

647
00:45:30,573 --> 00:45:37,013
Speaker 3: I think they they have fallen into the track of

648
00:45:37,093 --> 00:45:39,933
Speaker 3: some sort of a moral equivalence between victim and perpetrator,

649
00:45:39,933 --> 00:45:42,573
Speaker 3: which is about to what happened in October twenty three

650
00:45:43,893 --> 00:45:47,733
Speaker 3: and not seeing the video. But you know, Greater Thurnberg

651
00:45:47,813 --> 00:45:50,053
Speaker 3: and company they refuse to see that video as well,

652
00:45:50,093 --> 00:45:50,693
Speaker 3: if you remember.

653
00:45:50,813 --> 00:45:53,173
Speaker 2: Yeah, but sheated a category of her own and not

654
00:45:53,213 --> 00:45:54,133
Speaker 2: a decision maker.

655
00:45:54,613 --> 00:46:00,293
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think all that is true, But unfortunately

656
00:46:00,373 --> 00:46:04,453
Speaker 3: I don't see any alternative person, even in the opposition benches,

657
00:46:04,973 --> 00:46:09,613
Speaker 3: whom I would have great faith in on this. Well,

658
00:46:09,653 --> 00:46:12,333
Speaker 3: but that, you know, the mismanaged, not Israel, and now

659
00:46:12,413 --> 00:46:15,493
Speaker 3: he's missed the mismanaged their alliance with the United States

660
00:46:15,613 --> 00:46:17,173
Speaker 3: as well. Well.

661
00:46:17,253 --> 00:46:19,773
Speaker 2: That that leads to yet another question. That's a step

662
00:46:19,813 --> 00:46:22,693
Speaker 2: further away than where we want to be. But nevertheless,

663
00:46:23,013 --> 00:46:28,093
Speaker 2: you mentioned voters, and it's voters who put people like

664
00:46:28,693 --> 00:46:31,533
Speaker 2: Albanesi into office the only way you can get there.

665
00:46:32,293 --> 00:46:36,013
Speaker 2: So what does it say about the about the intelligence

666
00:46:36,813 --> 00:46:42,053
Speaker 2: or the education or the media influence that the population

667
00:46:42,413 --> 00:46:48,053
Speaker 2: of Australia and New Zealand and other countries have that

668
00:46:48,173 --> 00:46:51,693
Speaker 2: they just don't grasp the reality of the situation.

669
00:46:53,693 --> 00:46:58,093
Speaker 3: I'll disagree with you on that. The reality is the

670
00:46:58,173 --> 00:47:02,133
Speaker 3: Labor Party this year got what just around one third

671
00:47:02,173 --> 00:47:06,493
Speaker 3: of the VOTs. So Albanesi is Prime Minister and Labor

672
00:47:06,613 --> 00:47:09,253
Speaker 3: is in government not because of the people's vote, but

673
00:47:09,333 --> 00:47:14,933
Speaker 3: because of the peculiar and uniquely self destructive system of

674
00:47:16,133 --> 00:47:20,533
Speaker 3: preferential voting we have here. I can vote for person one,

675
00:47:20,733 --> 00:47:22,933
Speaker 3: and person who's number fourteen one of my list can

676
00:47:23,053 --> 00:47:27,293
Speaker 3: end up being my representative. Well because of the preference vestiers. Look,

677
00:47:27,973 --> 00:47:30,133
Speaker 3: the system is much more to blame for that and

678
00:47:30,173 --> 00:47:32,093
Speaker 3: what you see. And this is a general problem. I

679
00:47:32,133 --> 00:47:34,653
Speaker 3: think we have talked about this across the West, that

680
00:47:34,813 --> 00:47:39,333
Speaker 3: there is a disenchantment and disillusionment from the existing political

681
00:47:39,373 --> 00:47:43,293
Speaker 3: systems and the so called uniparties or the so called blob.

682
00:47:43,653 --> 00:47:45,693
Speaker 3: No matter who you vote for, you get the same

683
00:47:45,733 --> 00:47:49,053
Speaker 3: policies regardless of what their promise in the campaign. So

684
00:47:49,173 --> 00:47:51,693
Speaker 3: two thirds of Australians did not vote for it, voted

685
00:47:51,813 --> 00:47:55,853
Speaker 3: for parties other than Labor and other than Albanesi as

686
00:47:55,893 --> 00:47:59,373
Speaker 3: my minister, and what I've actually referred to this in

687
00:47:59,413 --> 00:48:03,853
Speaker 3: writing this. Australia is the second example in recent times,

688
00:48:04,093 --> 00:48:08,773
Speaker 3: following the UK of loveless landslides. But they make the

689
00:48:08,853 --> 00:48:12,653
Speaker 3: mistake of misinterpreting two thirds of the people putting against

690
00:48:12,653 --> 00:48:15,493
Speaker 3: them as a powerful mandate because of the number of

691
00:48:15,533 --> 00:48:18,893
Speaker 3: seats they have in parliament. Albanesi has more seats in

692
00:48:18,933 --> 00:48:24,213
Speaker 3: Parliament for Labor and more parliamentary control despite having significantly

693
00:48:24,293 --> 00:48:28,933
Speaker 3: lower vot share than Kevin Rudd had for example. So

694
00:48:29,013 --> 00:48:30,573
Speaker 3: I think we need to be careful that. You know,

695
00:48:32,493 --> 00:48:36,093
Speaker 3: it's the system where let me put it away, voters

696
00:48:36,133 --> 00:48:38,693
Speaker 3: propose the preference system disposes.

697
00:48:39,813 --> 00:48:44,133
Speaker 2: Well, I grew up with the preference system, not in

698
00:48:44,253 --> 00:48:48,213
Speaker 2: thew in Australia, you know. Okay, Well, I don't forget

699
00:48:48,253 --> 00:48:51,933
Speaker 2: that I am Australian. Yeah, Okay.

700
00:48:51,933 --> 00:48:54,213
Speaker 3: Conversely, don't forget I am in New Zealand and I

701
00:48:54,253 --> 00:48:56,653
Speaker 3: was in New Zealand and we went from first past

702
00:48:56,693 --> 00:48:59,613
Speaker 3: the post to m and P which has many attractions.

703
00:48:59,653 --> 00:49:02,813
Speaker 3: But if you go to this last election, but the

704
00:49:02,853 --> 00:49:05,973
Speaker 3: one before when Justin the Atan became PM under the

705
00:49:06,013 --> 00:49:10,573
Speaker 3: old first part of the post, John Cuda on a landslide. Well,

706
00:49:10,613 --> 00:49:13,493
Speaker 3: I think we keep seeing all of us democratic countries,

707
00:49:14,293 --> 00:49:18,253
Speaker 3: but if you do that exercise of putting different systems

708
00:49:18,293 --> 00:49:21,533
Speaker 3: in each of the major Western democracies, you'd get a

709
00:49:21,533 --> 00:49:25,573
Speaker 3: completely different government formation. Well, it can't be the case

710
00:49:25,573 --> 00:49:28,813
Speaker 3: that it is people's choices being reflected in government. It's

711
00:49:28,853 --> 00:49:30,493
Speaker 3: the system. Ramesh.

712
00:49:30,533 --> 00:49:33,053
Speaker 2: When when I came to New Zealand, which is a

713
00:49:33,053 --> 00:49:39,093
Speaker 2: long time ago, and we were up for the for

714
00:49:39,173 --> 00:49:43,293
Speaker 2: the for the vote and m MP became became it,

715
00:49:43,853 --> 00:49:47,573
Speaker 2: I argued as hard as I could and gave as

716
00:49:47,653 --> 00:49:50,933
Speaker 2: much as I was able to to not having m

717
00:49:51,053 --> 00:49:56,013
Speaker 2: MP and for going for the for the preferential approach yep.

718
00:49:57,333 --> 00:49:59,813
Speaker 2: And I because I thought it was the best, and

719
00:49:59,853 --> 00:50:01,653
Speaker 2: I still think it was the best at the time.

720
00:50:01,813 --> 00:50:06,293
Speaker 2: But in all countries there's been we've seen the births

721
00:50:06,333 --> 00:50:09,893
Speaker 2: of all these clip on parties that achieve what you

722
00:50:10,613 --> 00:50:15,253
Speaker 2: what you've just described. So then taking all that into account,

723
00:50:15,293 --> 00:50:18,533
Speaker 2: my question for you is, in your opinion, what is

724
00:50:18,573 --> 00:50:19,653
Speaker 2: the best system we could have.

725
00:50:20,413 --> 00:50:25,053
Speaker 3: That's a very good question, But in a sense I don't.

726
00:50:25,653 --> 00:50:29,093
Speaker 3: I haven't looked into that in any detail, because before

727
00:50:29,133 --> 00:50:31,693
Speaker 3: I would invest time in that, I need to see

728
00:50:31,693 --> 00:50:34,693
Speaker 3: how much is possible in Australia, how much is constitution

729
00:50:34,813 --> 00:50:40,973
Speaker 3: and how much can be changed. But certainly and there

730
00:50:42,293 --> 00:50:44,373
Speaker 3: let me put it this way. I was a photograph

731
00:50:44,373 --> 00:50:48,933
Speaker 3: then I had two senior colleagues, one of whom was

732
00:50:48,933 --> 00:50:51,853
Speaker 3: a member of the commission that recommended MMP, the later

733
00:50:51,933 --> 00:50:57,013
Speaker 3: Richard Mulgan. Another, Anthony Wood, was a resident expert in

734
00:50:57,013 --> 00:51:00,933
Speaker 3: New Zealian politics, and they disagreed fundamentally on this. Anthony

735
00:51:02,253 --> 00:51:05,013
Speaker 3: was very much in favor of retaining the first but

736
00:51:05,173 --> 00:51:09,413
Speaker 3: the post not the least, because he said it's the

737
00:51:09,453 --> 00:51:12,053
Speaker 3: most effective system for being able to throw the buses out.

738
00:51:12,093 --> 00:51:16,293
Speaker 3: If you don't like that, you've seen that validated in

739
00:51:16,413 --> 00:51:20,533
Speaker 3: many countries by now. But I know that I don't

740
00:51:20,573 --> 00:51:23,653
Speaker 3: like the Australian system. I don't think it's one the other.

741
00:51:23,893 --> 00:51:26,933
Speaker 3: I think in the zeally at the time my sense

742
00:51:27,093 --> 00:51:29,493
Speaker 3: was I would have struck a compromise between the two.

743
00:51:30,373 --> 00:51:32,653
Speaker 3: I would have had fifty percent of the seats elected

744
00:51:32,653 --> 00:51:35,493
Speaker 3: on first past the post and the remaining fifty percent

745
00:51:36,053 --> 00:51:38,573
Speaker 3: on some sort of proportional so that you can't try

746
00:51:38,613 --> 00:51:41,133
Speaker 3: to combine the two to get the benefit support.

747
00:51:44,293 --> 00:51:48,973
Speaker 2: If you've got proportional, you've got basically what you've got now.

748
00:51:48,893 --> 00:51:52,213
Speaker 3: Lists, Yes, but only half the seats.

749
00:51:53,853 --> 00:51:57,173
Speaker 2: But for only half the seats, you're you're paying people

750
00:51:57,253 --> 00:51:59,853
Speaker 2: who are not elected. So you still haven't got you

751
00:51:59,893 --> 00:52:02,253
Speaker 2: still haven't gotten an appropriate.

752
00:52:02,493 --> 00:52:05,613
Speaker 3: No, but essentially most people, now, I mean you've got

753
00:52:05,653 --> 00:52:09,213
Speaker 3: overwhelming evidence for that, most people for the party rather

754
00:52:09,293 --> 00:52:14,693
Speaker 3: than than individual members. Yes, So so the party is

755
00:52:14,773 --> 00:52:15,573
Speaker 3: to recognize that.

756
00:52:16,333 --> 00:52:19,613
Speaker 2: How about how about this, how about we elect we

757
00:52:19,613 --> 00:52:25,213
Speaker 2: we elect our own members, our own politicians for the

758
00:52:25,253 --> 00:52:29,173
Speaker 2: seat that we live in. We elect them individually, like

759
00:52:29,173 --> 00:52:30,133
Speaker 2: the Americans.

760
00:52:30,733 --> 00:52:33,573
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, there are also the multi member constituencies where

761
00:52:33,573 --> 00:52:35,413
Speaker 3: you can have that also, so that there are different

762
00:52:35,453 --> 00:52:38,373
Speaker 3: ways of looking at it.

763
00:52:38,973 --> 00:52:44,013
Speaker 2: But sorry, so just just to say that the party

764
00:52:44,493 --> 00:52:48,813
Speaker 2: doesn't come first, the local electric comes first, and then

765
00:52:48,893 --> 00:52:49,893
Speaker 2: and therefore yes, but.

766
00:52:49,853 --> 00:52:54,293
Speaker 3: That if you have only that, then it becomes unworkable

767
00:52:54,293 --> 00:52:56,653
Speaker 3: and the whole system fall example, because you have no party,

768
00:52:56,893 --> 00:52:59,133
Speaker 3: you don't contvote for a platform, you don't know who's

769
00:52:59,173 --> 00:53:01,893
Speaker 3: going to be the leader. Then et cetera. So it did.

770
00:53:02,213 --> 00:53:08,573
Speaker 3: If you actually work it through, it becomes unworked will

771
00:53:08,653 --> 00:53:11,493
Speaker 3: very quickly. An alternative to that is to have some

772
00:53:11,533 --> 00:53:16,053
Speaker 3: sort of a recall system or too far out of line,

773
00:53:16,493 --> 00:53:20,693
Speaker 3: you know, you have five percent of the voters in

774
00:53:20,733 --> 00:53:25,093
Speaker 3: any constituency demanded recall or re election. That will keep

775
00:53:25,093 --> 00:53:27,693
Speaker 3: them in line much better too. Well, what about the

776
00:53:27,693 --> 00:53:31,413
Speaker 3: Swiss system. I like the Swiss system, but I'm not

777
00:53:31,453 --> 00:53:34,773
Speaker 3: sure that you can replicate that with I guess because

778
00:53:34,773 --> 00:53:37,413
Speaker 3: in Australia and New Zealand, but I also look at

779
00:53:37,493 --> 00:53:43,013
Speaker 3: the bigger countries. So yeah, But the basic point is

780
00:53:43,413 --> 00:53:46,693
Speaker 3: there's two things we need to address. One is other

781
00:53:46,853 --> 00:53:49,773
Speaker 3: existing systems in the different countries delivering the best outcomes,

782
00:53:50,093 --> 00:53:52,653
Speaker 3: and there's no reason to believe that something that worked

783
00:53:53,013 --> 00:53:57,173
Speaker 3: sixty years ago is still good for contemporary conditions. The

784
00:53:57,213 --> 00:54:01,813
Speaker 3: second one is how do you ensure integrity of promises

785
00:54:01,853 --> 00:54:06,173
Speaker 3: made in campaigns with policies enacted as government. And that's

786
00:54:06,173 --> 00:54:07,893
Speaker 3: where a lot of the problem comes in as well.

787
00:54:08,373 --> 00:54:13,093
Speaker 2: Let me climb back on track, yeah, and put some

788
00:54:13,253 --> 00:54:17,613
Speaker 2: questions to you. There's a lot said about the population

789
00:54:17,773 --> 00:54:24,133
Speaker 2: of Iran rebelling and throwing out somehow getting getting themselves

790
00:54:24,213 --> 00:54:28,573
Speaker 2: rid of the current regime. Yep, what chance of that?

791
00:54:28,613 --> 00:54:31,133
Speaker 3: Do you think? This is where we need to be

792
00:54:31,253 --> 00:54:33,813
Speaker 3: very careful of what we wish for and go back

793
00:54:33,853 --> 00:54:38,773
Speaker 3: to my unintended perverse consequences. You know, in general around

794
00:54:38,813 --> 00:54:42,573
Speaker 3: the world, but particularly in the Middle East, history doesn't

795
00:54:42,693 --> 00:54:47,253
Speaker 3: move forwards in a linear fashion. It typically skips sideways

796
00:54:48,093 --> 00:54:51,813
Speaker 3: and no one knows where exactly it's going to land.

797
00:54:52,573 --> 00:54:56,373
Speaker 3: And that is a risk. If we get a change

798
00:54:56,373 --> 00:55:01,853
Speaker 3: of regime, the chances are bigger rather than smaller, that

799
00:55:01,973 --> 00:55:05,773
Speaker 3: we'll get a more hawkish regime. We are familiar with

800
00:55:05,853 --> 00:55:10,573
Speaker 3: the distaste in the US, well, unhappiness in the US

801
00:55:10,613 --> 00:55:14,253
Speaker 3: and distaste in Israel with the twenty fifteen utility. But

802
00:55:14,333 --> 00:55:18,933
Speaker 3: that was a controversial decision in Iran as well. The

803
00:55:20,733 --> 00:55:25,293
Speaker 3: strongly nationalists within Iran. We're not happy with that that.

804
00:55:25,413 --> 00:55:29,133
Speaker 3: They said, you know, we don't trust Americans. This is

805
00:55:29,173 --> 00:55:33,413
Speaker 3: sipping from the poison chalice yet again, and they felt

806
00:55:33,493 --> 00:55:38,013
Speaker 3: vindicated when Trump pulled out in twenty eighteen. So I

807
00:55:38,013 --> 00:55:41,253
Speaker 3: think the chances are that if the regime was displaced,

808
00:55:41,253 --> 00:55:44,373
Speaker 3: the regime of the Atholas was displaced, it would be

809
00:55:44,413 --> 00:55:48,173
Speaker 3: some version of the IRGC. The revolutionary regards who take

810
00:55:48,213 --> 00:55:52,453
Speaker 3: over power, and the reports indicate that some powers were

811
00:55:52,493 --> 00:55:58,013
Speaker 3: transferred to them by Athola, how many fearing assassination, the

812
00:55:58,133 --> 00:56:02,453
Speaker 3: chances of a genuinely democratic outcome would be smaller rather

813
00:56:02,493 --> 00:56:10,453
Speaker 3: than greater, from Afghanistan, through Iran, through Libya's Syria even

814
00:56:10,573 --> 00:56:17,733
Speaker 3: already today. Interventions and even out of a Spring revolutions

815
00:56:18,693 --> 00:56:21,933
Speaker 3: created euphoria in the short term, but have left the

816
00:56:22,013 --> 00:56:30,653
Speaker 3: legacy of dysfunctionality, societal breakdown, economic breakdown, po little breakdown, chaos,

817
00:56:30,693 --> 00:56:37,413
Speaker 3: and anarchy. And you're really going to have to be

818
00:56:37,893 --> 00:56:41,933
Speaker 3: an very strong optimist to believe that we'd get a

819
00:56:41,933 --> 00:56:45,733
Speaker 3: different outcome in Iran, and the consequences given this population

820
00:56:46,293 --> 00:56:49,693
Speaker 3: would be even worse in terms of the refugee max

821
00:56:49,973 --> 00:56:54,973
Speaker 3: mass refugee outflows and the internal civil wars. So i'm

822
00:56:55,093 --> 00:56:58,493
Speaker 3: very You know, we didn't like Saddam Hussin, but he

823
00:56:58,613 --> 00:57:01,573
Speaker 3: kept the lid on. We didn't like Asad, but he

824
00:57:01,653 --> 00:57:05,613
Speaker 3: kept the lid on. We didn't like Adafi, but again

825
00:57:05,613 --> 00:57:08,373
Speaker 3: he kept the lid on. It's hard to argue that

826
00:57:08,453 --> 00:57:12,893
Speaker 3: has followed in each of these has been better than

827
00:57:13,013 --> 00:57:17,413
Speaker 3: the things the regimes are replaced. So I'm a bit

828
00:57:17,493 --> 00:57:20,733
Speaker 3: variable going down the path. Yet again we've been down that,

829
00:57:21,293 --> 00:57:25,413
Speaker 3: we've seen that movie. It's never got well before. So

830
00:57:25,933 --> 00:57:30,373
Speaker 3: if now I think we should also to be fair,

831
00:57:30,493 --> 00:57:34,813
Speaker 3: remember that the West has a very bad history in

832
00:57:34,813 --> 00:57:37,813
Speaker 3: interfering in Iran, going back to the overthrow of their

833
00:57:37,853 --> 00:57:43,133
Speaker 3: democratic government and installing the Shah in power. I think

834
00:57:43,453 --> 00:57:46,733
Speaker 3: there were many people outside of the West who who

835
00:57:46,853 --> 00:57:51,733
Speaker 3: for decades argue that preservation or democracy in the West

836
00:57:52,053 --> 00:57:55,533
Speaker 3: seems to require oppression of people's aspirations in the rest,

837
00:57:56,213 --> 00:57:58,133
Speaker 3: and there is an element of truth to that as

838
00:57:58,173 --> 00:58:03,453
Speaker 3: well as having said that, I mean I've been to Iran.

839
00:58:03,493 --> 00:58:08,213
Speaker 3: There's no question but that there's very little love for

840
00:58:08,373 --> 00:58:12,053
Speaker 3: the regime, for the regime of the Atolas amongst the population,

841
00:58:13,333 --> 00:58:16,453
Speaker 3: and they very much wanted to have the same sources

842
00:58:16,493 --> 00:58:21,093
Speaker 3: of not just lifestyles but core freedoms that we take

843
00:58:21,133 --> 00:58:23,533
Speaker 3: for granted in the West, and not to tay for

844
00:58:23,613 --> 00:58:28,413
Speaker 3: granted but deride and and and mock in the West. Now,

845
00:58:29,093 --> 00:58:35,093
Speaker 3: so that part is there. You know, we've never been

846
00:58:35,373 --> 00:58:39,253
Speaker 3: fully happy with the extent of democracy in Singapore, but

847
00:58:39,333 --> 00:58:43,373
Speaker 3: if you think about it, for Singapore, it has produced

848
00:58:43,413 --> 00:58:45,733
Speaker 3: a lot of good results with a few of the

849
00:58:45,813 --> 00:58:51,653
Speaker 3: disfunctionalities of full fledged liberal democracies in the West or

850
00:58:52,533 --> 00:58:56,933
Speaker 3: non democracies elsewhere. Did you spend time in Singapore, Well,

851
00:58:56,973 --> 00:58:59,293
Speaker 3: I've I've been visiting on an offense state for a

852
00:58:59,293 --> 00:59:03,173
Speaker 3: short period. Sim it's Jim Allen I'm thinking of. Actually

853
00:59:03,253 --> 00:59:06,973
Speaker 3: he taught it for a bit. He was in Hong Kong.

854
00:59:06,973 --> 00:59:09,613
Speaker 3: Not not not to Singapore. He was in Hong Kong.

855
00:59:10,173 --> 00:59:13,093
Speaker 3: I know he's in Hong Kong, all right. Well, somebody

856
00:59:13,173 --> 00:59:16,413
Speaker 3: was in Singapore. He spent some years in Hong Kong

857
00:59:16,413 --> 00:59:20,533
Speaker 3: before he came was in New Zealand. All right.

858
00:59:21,133 --> 00:59:27,173
Speaker 2: I'll double check it from from myself, but I accept

859
00:59:27,773 --> 00:59:30,533
Speaker 2: for the present I could be wrong.

860
00:59:30,293 --> 00:59:32,133
Speaker 3: But my memory is that I don't think he spent

861
00:59:32,213 --> 00:59:34,013
Speaker 3: time on Singapore in Hong Kong.

862
00:59:36,653 --> 00:59:40,373
Speaker 2: Isn't it interesting actually that the number of people who

863
00:59:42,413 --> 00:59:44,693
Speaker 2: went through, if I may put it that way, who

864
00:59:44,733 --> 00:59:52,653
Speaker 2: taught at a targo and have dispersed into other parts

865
00:59:52,653 --> 00:59:55,173
Speaker 2: of the world simply because New Zealand couldn't hold them.

866
00:59:55,373 --> 01:00:00,693
Speaker 2: Your one, Jim Allen's another. There's somebody else I'm trying

867
01:00:00,733 --> 01:00:07,453
Speaker 2: to think of who was at the University of Tasmania.

868
01:00:07,813 --> 01:00:11,253
Speaker 3: Yes, of course, a fine fellow yep.

869
01:00:13,413 --> 01:00:17,133
Speaker 2: That anyway, My point was that we can't hold on

870
01:00:17,173 --> 01:00:21,173
Speaker 2: to people because for whatever reason New Zealand doesn't have

871
01:00:21,573 --> 01:00:27,733
Speaker 2: enough to enough to offer to retain. So the situation

872
01:00:27,853 --> 01:00:33,853
Speaker 2: with Russia and China, their parts in such as they

873
01:00:33,893 --> 01:00:38,893
Speaker 2: are or were in the Middle East we're currently talking

874
01:00:38,933 --> 01:00:44,733
Speaker 2: about and beyond, and also your opinion on how on

875
01:00:44,893 --> 01:00:48,453
Speaker 2: earth this current European war is going to sort itself out.

876
01:00:49,173 --> 01:00:54,133
Speaker 3: I think one of the consequences of the last couple

877
01:00:54,133 --> 01:00:57,133
Speaker 3: of weeks we to go to Iran is the break

878
01:00:57,173 --> 01:01:02,653
Speaker 3: in the Sobal Crink alliance or group China, Russia, Iran,

879
01:01:02,773 --> 01:01:06,773
Speaker 3: North Korea. It's going to make the others China and

880
01:01:06,813 --> 01:01:11,453
Speaker 3: North Korea, Russia more determined to modernize their nuclear arsenal.

881
01:01:11,813 --> 01:01:16,973
Speaker 3: It has shown up the emptiness of aligning with this

882
01:01:17,013 --> 01:01:21,973
Speaker 3: group for others in that Russia has been displaced from

883
01:01:21,973 --> 01:01:26,013
Speaker 3: a releast China and Russia will limit it to expressing

884
01:01:26,653 --> 01:01:32,453
Speaker 3: plastitudes Iran as a source of supply of drones for Russia.

885
01:01:32,733 --> 01:01:35,573
Speaker 3: We'll see how that plays out. I suspect it will

886
01:01:36,093 --> 01:01:39,853
Speaker 3: strengthen the relationship between China and Russia. I'm not sure

887
01:01:39,853 --> 01:01:46,293
Speaker 3: it has any lasting significance for shaping Chinese behavior visa

888
01:01:46,373 --> 01:01:50,333
Speaker 3: VI Taiwan. People are saying it will show the American credibility,

889
01:01:50,373 --> 01:01:56,773
Speaker 3: but I don't think that lessons translate across the regions. Conversely,

890
01:01:56,853 --> 01:02:00,693
Speaker 3: I think it doesn't necessarily work to advantage to have

891
01:02:00,813 --> 01:02:04,413
Speaker 3: America distracted yet again by a major crisis in the

892
01:02:04,413 --> 01:02:08,333
Speaker 3: Middle East, as opposed to focusing on the Indo Pacific.

893
01:02:08,973 --> 01:02:13,533
Speaker 3: Russia has clearly kept at its war in Ukraine. President

894
01:02:13,613 --> 01:02:16,773
Speaker 3: Zelenski has kept making odd statements, you know, don't forget us,

895
01:02:16,773 --> 01:02:20,853
Speaker 3: don't forget us, we need help still, et cetera. But

896
01:02:20,893 --> 01:02:24,733
Speaker 3: I think the American the trumpetministration is less receptive to

897
01:02:24,813 --> 01:02:28,493
Speaker 3: his pleas than has been the case for the past things.

898
01:02:29,053 --> 01:02:32,813
Speaker 3: The other important factor is it shows the strategic irrelevance

899
01:02:32,853 --> 01:02:37,053
Speaker 3: of the Europeans as well when it comes to major decisions.

900
01:02:38,133 --> 01:02:40,293
Speaker 3: I'm not sure how many of them are even consulted

901
01:02:40,893 --> 01:02:44,813
Speaker 3: some or maybe given information in advance, but they've essentially

902
01:02:44,853 --> 01:02:49,653
Speaker 3: been shown to be hangers on rather than shared decision

903
01:02:49,653 --> 01:02:52,533
Speaker 3: making at the table. So we'll see as we speak

904
01:02:52,973 --> 01:02:57,653
Speaker 3: how this plays out with the Native summit in the Netherlands.

905
01:02:57,693 --> 01:03:01,293
Speaker 3: Now I don't know they're meeting at the Hague or

906
01:03:01,373 --> 01:03:05,373
Speaker 3: in Amsterdam, whichever it is, it's I think it confirms

907
01:03:05,413 --> 01:03:07,653
Speaker 3: that there's the United States and then there's the rest.

908
01:03:08,493 --> 01:03:12,733
Speaker 3: It's not going to diminish Trump's transactional approach to diplomacy.

909
01:03:12,853 --> 01:03:17,573
Speaker 3: He's most susceptible to flattery, but I think that's not

910
01:03:17,613 --> 01:03:21,493
Speaker 3: a lasting benefit. He's prepared to change his mind. He

911
01:03:21,573 --> 01:03:26,333
Speaker 3: has shown the ability to keep a secret, and after

912
01:03:26,613 --> 01:03:31,093
Speaker 3: all the telegram gate and stuff like that, that was

913
01:03:31,093 --> 01:03:34,413
Speaker 3: a question mark. But in this they managed to retain

914
01:03:35,453 --> 01:03:40,413
Speaker 3: the details secret until the operation was actually implemented. So

915
01:03:40,453 --> 01:03:43,133
Speaker 3: that's something for the good as well. It's an opportunity

916
01:03:43,173 --> 01:03:47,973
Speaker 3: if you think of the tremendous upheavals, it is an

917
01:03:48,013 --> 01:03:55,693
Speaker 3: opportunity for significant long term geopolitical game changing decisions for

918
01:03:55,813 --> 01:03:59,613
Speaker 3: the Middle least for Europe, less so I think for

919
01:03:59,653 --> 01:04:03,013
Speaker 3: the Indo Pacific, and that's probably a good place on

920
01:04:03,053 --> 01:04:06,253
Speaker 3: which to land with is that it has broken the

921
01:04:06,373 --> 01:04:09,773
Speaker 3: existing mold. What will be the new contrast of the

922
01:04:09,813 --> 01:04:13,733
Speaker 3: Middle East and Europe and the North Atlantic. Let's fait

923
01:04:13,813 --> 01:04:16,373
Speaker 3: and see. I think we are in a better position

924
01:04:16,693 --> 01:04:19,253
Speaker 3: now than we were at the start of the year.

925
01:04:19,693 --> 01:04:23,093
Speaker 3: I think the Trump administration deserves considerable credit for that

926
01:04:23,133 --> 01:04:26,133
Speaker 3: for all the criticisms directed at them. I'm not sure

927
01:04:26,133 --> 01:04:28,533
Speaker 3: that it has any major implications long term for what

928
01:04:28,573 --> 01:04:32,133
Speaker 3: happens in Russia and China, but if it does, it's

929
01:04:32,173 --> 01:04:35,253
Speaker 3: going to make them more careful with regard to challenging

930
01:04:35,933 --> 01:04:40,413
Speaker 3: or provoking Trump. I think they will be not necessarily

931
01:04:40,453 --> 01:04:43,573
Speaker 3: on the best behavior, but on less verse of a

932
01:04:43,653 --> 01:04:48,413
Speaker 3: behavior than they have been or were under the Biden administration.

933
01:04:49,813 --> 01:04:50,493
Speaker 3: Very interesting.

934
01:04:50,813 --> 01:04:53,733
Speaker 2: So then I think my final question to you is

935
01:04:54,373 --> 01:04:59,093
Speaker 2: how do you see the Middle East coming out of

936
01:04:59,133 --> 01:05:01,413
Speaker 2: this as we have discussed it and as we know

937
01:05:01,493 --> 01:05:05,373
Speaker 2: it's happening. In other words, how will Iran sort this out?

938
01:05:05,973 --> 01:05:11,493
Speaker 3: I think they will pause, recover, recuperate. I think there

939
01:05:11,533 --> 01:05:17,973
Speaker 3: will be more determined efforts to invest in nuclear weapon capability.

940
01:05:19,533 --> 01:05:22,933
Speaker 3: I should have added, by the way, that personally, I

941
01:05:22,973 --> 01:05:28,453
Speaker 3: do believe that the Aya tolders and the Islamic clerics

942
01:05:28,733 --> 01:05:34,053
Speaker 3: actually were a defense against overt weaponization. I have no

943
01:05:34,173 --> 01:05:39,653
Speaker 3: reason to doubt that their statements that possessing little and

944
01:05:39,773 --> 01:05:46,493
Speaker 3: using nuclear weapons is contrary to core Islamic doctrine, paralleling

945
01:05:46,533 --> 01:05:49,413
Speaker 3: the arguments that the Catholic bishops have been in the past,

946
01:05:49,453 --> 01:05:54,293
Speaker 3: for example, about nuclear weapons and that they were under pressure.

947
01:05:55,173 --> 01:05:58,533
Speaker 3: When I was in Iran, I went to Isfahan and

948
01:05:58,613 --> 01:06:01,613
Speaker 3: I was taken to the points where they were subjected

949
01:06:01,653 --> 01:06:05,133
Speaker 3: to a chemical weapons attacks by So I'm saying, if

950
01:06:05,133 --> 01:06:09,053
Speaker 3: you remember, and the point made to me was beyonder

951
01:06:09,093 --> 01:06:13,813
Speaker 3: great pressure as victims of weapons of mass destruction, which

952
01:06:13,853 --> 01:06:18,573
Speaker 3: the West tried to minimize or deny initially, beyond under

953
01:06:18,573 --> 01:06:22,013
Speaker 3: great pressure to go down the nuclear path. But if

954
01:06:22,013 --> 01:06:24,773
Speaker 3: we don't want to do that, but as a compromise,

955
01:06:25,533 --> 01:06:29,053
Speaker 3: we sort of investing in the capability if we ever

956
01:06:29,093 --> 01:06:31,773
Speaker 3: do decide to go down that part. That was the message,

957
01:06:31,973 --> 01:06:35,013
Speaker 3: not as explicitly as that, but that was the message

958
01:06:35,013 --> 01:06:37,773
Speaker 3: I got from that. So I think there is reason

959
01:06:37,813 --> 01:06:41,253
Speaker 3: to believe that as well. I think they're going to

960
01:06:41,293 --> 01:06:43,613
Speaker 3: have to work out a more intet I think to

961
01:06:43,733 --> 01:06:50,213
Speaker 3: the Iranians, the Palestinians, Serians obviously a different category. In Lebanon,

962
01:06:50,813 --> 01:06:54,133
Speaker 3: our message has to be you're defeated for the foreseable future.

963
01:06:54,173 --> 01:06:57,093
Speaker 3: You're not going to be able to challenge Isuel militarily,

964
01:06:57,733 --> 01:07:01,693
Speaker 3: accept that reality and move on. I think to Israel

965
01:07:01,733 --> 01:07:04,173
Speaker 3: the message has to be you can't have a permanent

966
01:07:04,253 --> 01:07:08,333
Speaker 3: future based on military superiority. The demographics work against you.

967
01:07:08,853 --> 01:07:11,493
Speaker 3: It goes against everything we know about history to believe

968
01:07:11,533 --> 01:07:15,093
Speaker 3: that one country can keep nuclear weapons forever and no

969
01:07:15,173 --> 01:07:18,573
Speaker 3: other country in the region can get it again or

970
01:07:18,733 --> 01:07:22,813
Speaker 3: can't get it. Ever, that's not going to happen. There's

971
01:07:22,853 --> 01:07:28,533
Speaker 3: been no web, no category of arms in history that

972
01:07:28,613 --> 01:07:32,133
Speaker 3: has remained restricted to a few if it's proven to

973
01:07:32,133 --> 01:07:36,613
Speaker 3: be effective, either in deterrent or in its operational functions,

974
01:07:37,093 --> 01:07:39,173
Speaker 3: So that also the periferation thing is going to be

975
01:07:39,173 --> 01:07:42,133
Speaker 3: have to looked at. I think one of the biggest

976
01:07:42,133 --> 01:07:46,493
Speaker 3: casualties of this is in fact, the lantice work of

977
01:07:46,533 --> 01:07:50,853
Speaker 3: international institutions and the norms and rules of laws centered

978
01:07:50,893 --> 01:07:53,493
Speaker 3: around them. So I don't think the UN comes out

979
01:07:53,533 --> 01:07:56,493
Speaker 3: of this looking very in very good health. That's going

980
01:07:56,533 --> 01:07:59,333
Speaker 3: to have to be looked at as well. So, yes,

981
01:07:59,373 --> 01:08:02,413
Speaker 3: the old system is gone, possibly forever. What's going to

982
01:08:02,413 --> 01:08:06,173
Speaker 3: be the new one? At this stage we don't know.

983
01:08:08,453 --> 01:08:12,373
Speaker 3: Do we have faith in our leaders to reshape a

984
01:08:12,453 --> 01:08:15,613
Speaker 3: new order? I wish I could answer yes on that,

985
01:08:16,733 --> 01:08:20,013
Speaker 3: but I don't see the equivalent of the leaders at

986
01:08:20,013 --> 01:08:22,293
Speaker 3: the end of the Second World War who put in

987
01:08:22,333 --> 01:08:25,893
Speaker 3: place a system that did deliver for everyone. And I

988
01:08:25,933 --> 01:08:30,453
Speaker 3: mean everyone, and produced a lot of good outcomes across

989
01:08:30,493 --> 01:08:35,893
Speaker 3: the board economically, socially, health wise, politically for most of

990
01:08:35,933 --> 01:08:40,653
Speaker 3: the world. I don't see that category of leadership anywhere

991
01:08:40,653 --> 01:08:43,333
Speaker 3: in the world. At the moment, I thought you might

992
01:08:43,333 --> 01:08:46,493
Speaker 3: have been toward Trump a little. I do that he's

993
01:08:46,493 --> 01:08:50,773
Speaker 3: better than the alternatives, and I think it's a volatility

994
01:08:51,333 --> 01:08:56,213
Speaker 3: and unpredictability that varies me. But he seems to be

995
01:08:56,213 --> 01:09:00,853
Speaker 3: behaving much better, behaving in the sense of foreign policy

996
01:09:01,613 --> 01:09:06,093
Speaker 3: decisions as well, much better in the second term, perhaps

997
01:09:06,173 --> 01:09:11,053
Speaker 3: having learned from being so bar and being moderated by

998
01:09:11,053 --> 01:09:16,333
Speaker 3: its first the experience of the first administration. Right, I

999
01:09:16,373 --> 01:09:24,653
Speaker 3: think we have to acknowledge the great geopolitical weight, the

1000
01:09:24,773 --> 01:09:29,253
Speaker 3: gravitational pull, the normative weight to the United States and

1001
01:09:29,373 --> 01:09:32,333
Speaker 3: pin a hope in its ability to lead the rest

1002
01:09:32,373 --> 01:09:37,813
Speaker 3: of the world towards a less dangerous and less unstable

1003
01:09:37,853 --> 01:09:41,973
Speaker 3: and less unpredictable future. And there are you know, they're

1004
01:09:41,973 --> 01:09:46,173
Speaker 3: all saying every challenge, in every every challengeing crisis is

1005
01:09:46,213 --> 01:09:49,253
Speaker 3: also an opportunity. So maybe he will lead the way

1006
01:09:49,413 --> 01:09:51,413
Speaker 3: to reconfiguring.

1007
01:09:52,293 --> 01:09:52,573
Speaker 2: That that.

1008
01:09:54,973 --> 01:09:56,093
Speaker 3: Well, that's all we can hope for.

1009
01:09:56,133 --> 01:10:00,373
Speaker 2: At the moment, I was going to do this much

1010
01:10:00,413 --> 01:10:04,413
Speaker 2: earlier in the in the discussion. So I will ask

1011
01:10:04,493 --> 01:10:07,013
Speaker 2: you finally this it's not a question, it's a it's

1012
01:10:07,053 --> 01:10:10,773
Speaker 2: a request you're I mean, for instance, you write a

1013
01:10:10,773 --> 01:10:15,053
Speaker 2: book in published a book in twenty fifteen nuclear weapons

1014
01:10:15,093 --> 01:10:21,533
Speaker 2: and International Security, just for the sake of people's information.

1015
01:10:22,693 --> 01:10:26,933
Speaker 2: Your association with matters nuclear was quite broad for some time.

1016
01:10:29,053 --> 01:10:33,653
Speaker 2: You have the authority to comment as you have and

1017
01:10:33,693 --> 01:10:37,493
Speaker 2: the way that you have. So where did you get that?

1018
01:10:37,653 --> 01:10:42,013
Speaker 2: Where did you cover off and get that knowledge?

1019
01:10:42,373 --> 01:10:47,333
Speaker 3: Well, it's a lifetime of professional work on it. I

1020
01:10:47,373 --> 01:10:49,533
Speaker 3: mean from what I said earlier, it's very clear that

1021
01:10:49,573 --> 01:10:54,733
Speaker 3: I don't have very anybodries about nuclear power for energy,

1022
01:10:55,293 --> 01:11:01,373
Speaker 3: provide it. All modern safeguards in design and operation are

1023
01:11:01,413 --> 01:11:05,093
Speaker 3: meant I met, and I think the apport that's on that.

1024
01:11:07,493 --> 01:11:14,093
Speaker 3: In terms of nuclear arms, I still think they're essentially unusable.

1025
01:11:15,253 --> 01:11:17,173
Speaker 3: That one of the big reasons they haven't been used

1026
01:11:17,213 --> 01:11:19,293
Speaker 3: since nineteen forty five is that in fact they are

1027
01:11:19,293 --> 01:11:22,973
Speaker 3: not usable, and there's all sorts of arguments about that

1028
01:11:23,613 --> 01:11:27,373
Speaker 3: their only purpose can be deterrence. Even then, there are

1029
01:11:27,493 --> 01:11:30,893
Speaker 3: major question marks about them. But having said all that,

1030
01:11:31,693 --> 01:11:34,813
Speaker 3: it's a foods gold of an ambition to believe that

1031
01:11:35,093 --> 01:11:38,573
Speaker 3: you can disarm those who already have the weapons one

1032
01:11:38,613 --> 01:11:41,413
Speaker 3: by one. I think it has to be a global

1033
01:11:41,453 --> 01:11:46,653
Speaker 3: effort and a global treaty with a robust inspection and

1034
01:11:46,773 --> 01:11:49,893
Speaker 3: verification system in which all parties have confidence.

1035
01:11:50,573 --> 01:11:54,333
Speaker 4: If we had that, the biggest losers actually would be

1036
01:11:55,413 --> 01:11:58,853
Speaker 4: actors like Russia and China, because, as has been demonstrated,

1037
01:11:59,773 --> 01:12:04,573
Speaker 4: the United States and the West generally still have unique

1038
01:12:05,413 --> 01:12:13,053
Speaker 4: technological superiority and capabilities that gives them overwhelming conventional superiority,

1039
01:12:14,293 --> 01:12:17,053
Speaker 4: and they otherwise actors that are less likely to be

1040
01:12:17,173 --> 01:12:20,373
Speaker 4: interested in wars of aggression than the other side, if

1041
01:12:20,373 --> 01:12:22,973
Speaker 4: you like. And I also think it's true, but for

1042
01:12:23,133 --> 01:12:26,933
Speaker 4: his reasons, but I won't go into detail with India

1043
01:12:27,013 --> 01:12:30,133
Speaker 4: vias of Pakistan. So I think the risks of nuclear

1044
01:12:30,133 --> 01:12:35,373
Speaker 4: weapons used by bad actors or by accident or by

1045
01:12:36,213 --> 01:12:40,333
Speaker 4: misinformation and missignaling the risks out for any potential benefit.

1046
01:12:40,373 --> 01:12:44,053
Speaker 3: And I like to see that addressed. But it's not

1047
01:12:44,093 --> 01:12:47,413
Speaker 3: going to happen suddenly. It's not going to be happened

1048
01:12:47,453 --> 01:12:53,293
Speaker 3: by ignoring the security concerns that people countries have, and

1049
01:12:53,373 --> 01:12:55,293
Speaker 3: so it has to be addressed. I think the problem

1050
01:12:55,373 --> 01:12:59,853
Speaker 3: has been having signed the MPT. The five countries that

1051
01:12:59,933 --> 01:13:03,133
Speaker 3: were accepted as nuclear weapons then took that as a

1052
01:13:03,173 --> 01:13:07,973
Speaker 3: permanent dispensation to retain nuclear weapons and stop anyone else

1053
01:13:07,973 --> 01:13:11,333
Speaker 3: from getting it. Well, that didn't work. We may not

1054
01:13:11,373 --> 01:13:14,933
Speaker 3: have the twenty countries you think the weapons that people

1055
01:13:14,973 --> 01:13:19,733
Speaker 3: are President Kennedy feared in the sixties, but we do

1056
01:13:19,853 --> 01:13:21,853
Speaker 3: have more than five. We have nine at the moment.

1057
01:13:23,853 --> 01:13:27,653
Speaker 3: You'd have to be someone completely ahistorical to believe that

1058
01:13:27,693 --> 01:13:30,013
Speaker 3: it can be restricted to nine if you don't actually

1059
01:13:30,013 --> 01:13:33,773
Speaker 3: address getting rid of it. One final point on that.

1060
01:13:34,093 --> 01:13:37,493
Speaker 3: Up until twenty seventeen, I didn't accept it, but I

1061
01:13:37,533 --> 01:13:40,293
Speaker 3: could see that there's a basis for arguing that the

1062
01:13:40,333 --> 01:13:42,613
Speaker 3: five countries that had them under the NPT, that's the

1063
01:13:42,733 --> 01:13:47,853
Speaker 3: United States, United Kingdom, France, China, and Russia, that their

1064
01:13:48,573 --> 01:13:52,893
Speaker 3: possession was at least legal, even if you're not legitimate

1065
01:13:52,973 --> 01:13:56,533
Speaker 3: in terms of the NPT, because there was no deadline

1066
01:13:56,573 --> 01:13:59,453
Speaker 3: set under the NPT for them to dismantle. But after

1067
01:13:59,533 --> 01:14:03,133
Speaker 3: six of the NPT does require them to dismantle disarm,

1068
01:14:04,253 --> 01:14:08,173
Speaker 3: And to argue that the treaty that came into if

1069
01:14:08,413 --> 01:14:12,573
Speaker 3: what was it nineteen seventy I think in negotiated and

1070
01:14:12,613 --> 01:14:15,973
Speaker 3: signed in sixty eight in operation since nineteen seventy, so

1071
01:14:16,013 --> 01:14:20,973
Speaker 3: fifty five years later, that they haven't violated ALTOST six.

1072
01:14:20,973 --> 01:14:23,773
Speaker 3: It's a very difficult argument to make. But regardless of that,

1073
01:14:24,413 --> 01:14:27,573
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen we have TPNW, the Treaty for the

1074
01:14:27,573 --> 01:14:30,693
Speaker 3: Prohibsion of Nuclear Weapons, which does make it very clear

1075
01:14:30,693 --> 01:14:32,493
Speaker 3: that as far as the rest of the world is concerned,

1076
01:14:32,573 --> 01:14:35,133
Speaker 3: in other words, as far as the international community concerned,

1077
01:14:35,333 --> 01:14:38,613
Speaker 3: possession of nuclear weapons by any state is contrary to

1078
01:14:38,693 --> 01:14:42,013
Speaker 3: existing international law and certainly international maniteer in law, and

1079
01:14:42,053 --> 01:14:44,813
Speaker 3: we want it dismantled. It doesn't mean you can get

1080
01:14:44,813 --> 01:14:48,293
Speaker 3: it immediately. It's an aspirational treaty because no country that

1081
01:14:48,773 --> 01:14:51,733
Speaker 3: has them, and no country that shelters under them, including Australia,

1082
01:14:51,813 --> 01:14:55,013
Speaker 3: as signed it. But I think you know, and much

1083
01:14:55,133 --> 01:14:57,453
Speaker 3: like what I was saying about Israel, if you want

1084
01:14:57,453 --> 01:15:00,293
Speaker 3: to have a vision for a path forward, it has

1085
01:15:00,373 --> 01:15:02,653
Speaker 3: to be a world free of nuclear weapons and the

1086
01:15:02,653 --> 01:15:07,533
Speaker 3: threat of use of nuclear weapons because and I prefer

1087
01:15:07,573 --> 01:15:10,213
Speaker 3: to make the argument starting from the point that they

1088
01:15:10,293 --> 01:15:14,133
Speaker 3: haven't been use because they're not usable and the impact

1089
01:15:14,213 --> 01:15:17,853
Speaker 3: is negative rather than positive. And if you start from that,

1090
01:15:18,253 --> 01:15:20,773
Speaker 3: you then say, well, how can we make it into

1091
01:15:20,813 --> 01:15:25,533
Speaker 3: a credible system that reassures everyone, and then we can

1092
01:15:25,613 --> 01:15:27,533
Speaker 3: more correctly dismantling it.

1093
01:15:28,013 --> 01:15:31,373
Speaker 2: I could keep talking or listening, because you're doing most

1094
01:15:31,373 --> 01:15:34,773
Speaker 2: of the talking, for at least another hour, but we

1095
01:15:34,813 --> 01:15:40,293
Speaker 2: shan't keep it another day. Keep it for another day. Well,

1096
01:15:40,493 --> 01:15:42,733
Speaker 2: as I was going to say, until we talk again.

1097
01:15:43,253 --> 01:15:46,213
Speaker 2: But I want to thank you because it's been most informative.

1098
01:15:46,253 --> 01:15:50,053
Speaker 2: I've learned plenty, and I think that most people who

1099
01:15:50,253 --> 01:15:53,573
Speaker 2: have been listening would have learned plenty. And there have

1100
01:15:53,613 --> 01:15:56,693
Speaker 2: been so many side roads that I could have taken

1101
01:15:56,773 --> 01:15:59,453
Speaker 2: that I didn't because I didn't want to keep going

1102
01:15:59,493 --> 01:16:03,373
Speaker 2: off in all sorts of different directions. It would have

1103
01:16:03,413 --> 01:16:07,173
Speaker 2: been like a stew But nevertheless, like you say, save

1104
01:16:07,253 --> 01:16:11,293
Speaker 2: it for another day. So Ramish, you're a good man

1105
01:16:11,453 --> 01:16:14,133
Speaker 2: and I appreciate it. Thank You's been a pleasure.

1106
01:16:14,493 --> 01:16:29,573
Speaker 5: Thanks Daisy, missus producer.

1107
01:16:29,653 --> 01:16:33,213
Speaker 2: We're into the mail room for podcast two hundred and ninety.

1108
01:16:33,693 --> 01:16:35,853
Speaker 6: Amazing Latent two hundred and ninety.

1109
01:16:36,333 --> 01:16:37,933
Speaker 3: I've got to go back and count up the number

1110
01:16:37,973 --> 01:16:39,533
Speaker 3: of times we've said that or some.

1111
01:16:39,853 --> 01:16:40,853
Speaker 6: It is pretty amazing.

1112
01:16:41,333 --> 01:16:42,093
Speaker 3: It is amazing.

1113
01:16:43,013 --> 01:16:47,413
Speaker 2: Now let's see what we have may I lead from Olivia.

1114
01:16:48,693 --> 01:16:52,133
Speaker 2: This is something that Olivia Pearson, who I had on

1115
01:16:52,173 --> 01:16:55,333
Speaker 2: the podcast a number of times in the earlier days,

1116
01:16:55,773 --> 01:16:59,693
Speaker 2: has set out to people who she likes, and I

1117
01:16:59,733 --> 01:17:02,813
Speaker 2: appear to be one of them. Since twenty sixteen, President

1118
01:17:02,813 --> 01:17:06,653
Speaker 2: Trump has conducted somewhere in the vicinity of nine hundred

1119
01:17:06,733 --> 01:17:12,213
Speaker 2: political rallies, an astronomical number befitting the man's colossal energy

1120
01:17:12,253 --> 01:17:16,213
Speaker 2: and courage. At nearly all of them, he has consistently

1121
01:17:16,293 --> 01:17:19,813
Speaker 2: maintained that he will never let the Islamic Republic of

1122
01:17:19,853 --> 01:17:24,133
Speaker 2: Iran acquire nuclear weapons. This is simply because he knows

1123
01:17:24,213 --> 01:17:27,013
Speaker 2: that the regime will use them on Israel and the

1124
01:17:27,133 --> 01:17:31,573
Speaker 2: United States. At these same rallies, Trump has also consistently

1125
01:17:31,613 --> 01:17:34,453
Speaker 2: stated that he will not involve the US in New

1126
01:17:34,733 --> 01:17:39,013
Speaker 2: Forever Wars, the force of his focus being America first.

1127
01:17:39,613 --> 01:17:44,453
Speaker 2: And then she has Then she's sent an address which

1128
01:17:44,653 --> 01:17:48,173
Speaker 2: is Olivia Pearson p I E. R. S O N

1129
01:17:48,493 --> 01:17:54,933
Speaker 2: dot org slash blog slash Trump acted to fulfill a

1130
01:17:55,093 --> 01:18:00,013
Speaker 2: long term promise, and I think it's probably worth worth

1131
01:18:00,053 --> 01:18:01,253
Speaker 2: listening to later.

1132
01:18:01,373 --> 01:18:04,733
Speaker 6: This is from Bronwyn and her subject is Owen Jennings's letter.

1133
01:18:05,413 --> 01:18:09,653
Speaker 6: She says, great letter by Owen Jennings sadly becoming increasingly

1134
01:18:09,893 --> 01:18:12,573
Speaker 6: obvious that Luxon does not work for the New Zealand

1135
01:18:12,573 --> 01:18:15,773
Speaker 6: people but for some global interest and they will have

1136
01:18:15,893 --> 01:18:20,253
Speaker 6: some reason for the hasty Gomod regulation which will benefit them,

1137
01:18:20,453 --> 01:18:24,533
Speaker 6: not us. I'm sure he was installed on purpose, as

1138
01:18:24,573 --> 01:18:27,933
Speaker 6: the media started talking him up as the next National

1139
01:18:27,973 --> 01:18:30,493
Speaker 6: Party leader as soon as he left her in New Zealand.

1140
01:18:31,013 --> 01:18:33,493
Speaker 6: As for you asking him whether he wants to be

1141
01:18:33,573 --> 01:18:38,373
Speaker 6: remembered as badly as Jabsinder and be forced to live overseas,

1142
01:18:38,453 --> 01:18:42,213
Speaker 6: I doubt he cares. She had her Harvard position lined up,

1143
01:18:42,253 --> 01:18:46,373
Speaker 6: and I'm sure lux Flakes has a globalist position lined

1144
01:18:46,453 --> 01:18:48,613
Speaker 6: up too, now that he has Prime Minister of New

1145
01:18:48,693 --> 01:18:51,533
Speaker 6: Zealand on his CV. And that's from bromwan.

1146
01:18:52,093 --> 01:18:56,573
Speaker 2: Ron, Well, that's some very savage actually, I'm not going

1147
01:18:56,653 --> 01:18:59,373
Speaker 2: to argue with you. You're entitled to your opinion. I

1148
01:18:59,453 --> 01:19:02,613
Speaker 2: might share quite a large portion of it. So from

1149
01:19:02,693 --> 01:19:07,733
Speaker 2: Brett London came up recently. It is subsiding while the

1150
01:19:07,773 --> 01:19:11,493
Speaker 2: other ind of the island is rising, as also are

1151
01:19:11,533 --> 01:19:16,093
Speaker 2: regions further north. This situation is the result of settling,

1152
01:19:16,653 --> 01:19:21,173
Speaker 2: for example, continuing to settle since the previous glacier period

1153
01:19:21,453 --> 01:19:25,973
Speaker 2: melt in Braggetts, No humans needed the weight of the ice,

1154
01:19:27,053 --> 01:19:31,253
Speaker 2: as many will know, deforms the Earth's crust. Claims of

1155
01:19:31,333 --> 01:19:34,493
Speaker 2: sea level rise in these and other places, as pointed

1156
01:19:34,533 --> 01:19:37,813
Speaker 2: out in your article, is very ill advised and misleading

1157
01:19:37,813 --> 01:19:41,733
Speaker 2: to the public perception, while all the while we are

1158
01:19:41,933 --> 01:19:46,693
Speaker 2: all getting blamed for what are natural processes. Nature will

1159
01:19:46,733 --> 01:19:49,413
Speaker 2: have the last word whether humans are here or not.

1160
01:19:50,093 --> 01:19:53,733
Speaker 2: We just aren't that important in the greater scheme of things,

1161
01:19:53,813 --> 01:19:57,813
Speaker 2: as you know reclimate matters. I can't blame people for

1162
01:19:57,893 --> 01:20:01,733
Speaker 2: absorbing the constant messaging hammering us every day. There is

1163
01:20:01,893 --> 01:20:05,093
Speaker 2: just so much of it and is pervasive. The credibility

1164
01:20:05,133 --> 01:20:08,773
Speaker 2: behind the messaging is very shaky given how many it

1165
01:20:08,813 --> 01:20:11,333
Speaker 2: can be proven to be wrong and over such a

1166
01:20:11,453 --> 01:20:14,133
Speaker 2: length of time. Our New Zealand government is one of

1167
01:20:14,173 --> 01:20:17,653
Speaker 2: the worst for what it is doing to the place

1168
01:20:17,813 --> 01:20:21,173
Speaker 2: in the name of a false god. I have a

1169
01:20:21,173 --> 01:20:26,573
Speaker 2: great week from bread. This government's really no different to

1170
01:20:26,613 --> 01:20:27,733
Speaker 2: the previous government, is it?

1171
01:20:27,813 --> 01:20:27,933
Speaker 3: On?

1172
01:20:28,013 --> 01:20:33,413
Speaker 2: This maybe a slight improvement, but still lacking integrity.

1173
01:20:34,133 --> 01:20:40,613
Speaker 6: Laden George says. Solar panels and windmills produce direct current.

1174
01:20:41,253 --> 01:20:44,733
Speaker 6: The grid operates on alternating current. With the fifty cycles

1175
01:20:44,773 --> 01:20:48,573
Speaker 6: per second frequency. To connect the DC to the grid

1176
01:20:49,053 --> 01:20:52,693
Speaker 6: requires it to be converted to AC. This requires very

1177
01:20:52,733 --> 01:20:58,533
Speaker 6: expensive inverters. Once converted, the AC produced must be synchronized

1178
01:20:58,573 --> 01:21:02,213
Speaker 6: with the fifty hertz To do this synchronization, and it

1179
01:21:02,253 --> 01:21:07,093
Speaker 6: requires an existing AC grid. This lack of synchronization is

1180
01:21:07,133 --> 01:21:11,373
Speaker 6: what caused the problems of Portugal these so called renewables.

1181
01:21:13,013 --> 01:21:16,453
Speaker 6: These so called renewables are heavily subsidized. I would suggest

1182
01:21:16,493 --> 01:21:19,973
Speaker 6: you contact an electrical engineer who can explain this better

1183
01:21:20,373 --> 01:21:23,013
Speaker 6: than a retired electrician. And that's from George.

1184
01:21:23,413 --> 01:21:23,813
Speaker 3: George.

1185
01:21:23,853 --> 01:21:28,053
Speaker 6: And if you understand that you're a better man than I, yes,

1186
01:21:28,093 --> 01:21:29,813
Speaker 6: well I'm a better man than you anyway, Jung.

1187
01:21:30,373 --> 01:21:39,133
Speaker 2: At any level, I have my advisor and that's mister Leyland. Um,

1188
01:21:39,293 --> 01:21:42,293
Speaker 2: so if I'm going to ask anybody, that'll be him.

1189
01:21:42,613 --> 01:21:46,213
Speaker 2: Dear Layton and Carolyn. When George Friedman said that the

1190
01:21:46,293 --> 01:21:50,053
Speaker 2: potus doesn't create a crisis, but instead they respond to

1191
01:21:50,093 --> 01:21:53,053
Speaker 2: the reality that they're trapped in, he really got me

1192
01:21:53,173 --> 01:21:57,933
Speaker 2: pondering do we write history or does history write us?

1193
01:21:58,693 --> 01:22:01,733
Speaker 2: Given the impossible odds of Donald Trump surviving a fully

1194
01:22:01,813 --> 01:22:06,933
Speaker 2: weaponized lawfare, a hostile mainstream media two assassination attempts, and

1195
01:22:07,133 --> 01:22:11,333
Speaker 2: still manage to return for a second presidential term. I'm

1196
01:22:11,373 --> 01:22:15,533
Speaker 2: beginning to believe that indeed history writes us. People who

1197
01:22:15,653 --> 01:22:19,493
Speaker 2: unjustifiably hate Trump call him a fool. But what they

1198
01:22:19,533 --> 01:22:23,053
Speaker 2: don't realize is that ultimately God will have the last laugh,

1199
01:22:23,733 --> 01:22:26,653
Speaker 2: because in a world that has turned completely upside down,

1200
01:22:27,093 --> 01:22:30,893
Speaker 2: he often chooses the foolish in order to shame the wise.

1201
01:22:32,173 --> 01:22:34,933
Speaker 2: You don't have to love Trump to accept the fact

1202
01:22:34,973 --> 01:22:36,813
Speaker 2: that he has done a lot of good in the

1203
01:22:36,813 --> 01:22:40,053
Speaker 2: world in just a short time since becoming Potus two.

1204
01:22:40,733 --> 01:22:43,773
Speaker 2: And here is a recent development that should get those

1205
01:22:44,053 --> 01:22:48,973
Speaker 2: self righteously wise people's nickers. In a twist, the government

1206
01:22:49,013 --> 01:22:51,573
Speaker 2: of Pakistan has formally recommended Donald Trump for the twenty

1207
01:22:51,613 --> 01:22:55,853
Speaker 2: six Nobel Peace Prize in recognition of his decisive diplomatic

1208
01:22:55,893 --> 01:23:01,813
Speaker 2: interventions during the recent India Pakistan crisis. As George Friedman mentioned,

1209
01:23:02,093 --> 01:23:09,213
Speaker 2: Trump is literally redefining cultural norms, taxes, foreign policy, policy, allies,

1210
01:23:09,573 --> 01:23:14,093
Speaker 2: and so on. Trump is a purported fool who is

1211
01:23:14,253 --> 01:23:18,053
Speaker 2: unpredictably effective. If being a fool would make the world

1212
01:23:18,693 --> 01:23:22,533
Speaker 2: a better place than long live the fools of this world.

1213
01:23:22,573 --> 01:23:27,213
Speaker 2: To quote the indomitable Thomas soul. Thomas sol once said

1214
01:23:27,213 --> 01:23:29,533
Speaker 2: that a fool can put on his coat better than

1215
01:23:29,533 --> 01:23:32,013
Speaker 2: a wise man can put it on for him. The

1216
01:23:32,053 --> 01:23:35,933
Speaker 2: implications of that undermine most of the agenda of the

1217
01:23:35,973 --> 01:23:40,813
Speaker 2: political left. Thank you, Jim as always very good. As

1218
01:23:40,853 --> 01:23:44,173
Speaker 2: to the answer of your question, there's no answer this

1219
01:23:44,293 --> 01:23:47,133
Speaker 2: question at the bottom. It doesn't matter. Wants to know

1220
01:23:47,173 --> 01:23:49,293
Speaker 2: if you managed to take me to the beach last week.

1221
01:23:51,933 --> 01:23:52,573
Speaker 3: That's funny.

1222
01:23:52,653 --> 01:23:53,493
Speaker 6: I believe we did.

1223
01:23:55,053 --> 01:24:00,853
Speaker 2: Yeah, I compounded. I do have another letter regarding George Treatment.

1224
01:24:02,053 --> 01:24:04,773
Speaker 2: Where do I put it, missus producer. It's over here somewhere.

1225
01:24:04,933 --> 01:24:06,893
Speaker 6: I don't know you've read them all anyway.

1226
01:24:07,093 --> 01:24:13,893
Speaker 2: Well, anyway, it's from It's from Allison Allison. I'm going

1227
01:24:13,933 --> 01:24:18,453
Speaker 2: to give it proper consideration and maybe next week pretty

1228
01:24:18,453 --> 01:24:18,933
Speaker 2: hard hitter.

1229
01:24:20,453 --> 01:24:21,453
Speaker 3: Thank you. We'll see you.

1230
01:24:21,373 --> 01:24:23,573
Speaker 6: Next week late and you will thank you so much.

1231
01:24:23,853 --> 01:24:24,493
Speaker 3: It's welcome.

1232
01:24:40,213 --> 01:24:43,933
Speaker 2: Finally, in podcast two ninety, there is a subject that

1233
01:24:44,133 --> 01:24:47,853
Speaker 2: is getting a lot of attention in well places where

1234
01:24:47,893 --> 01:24:51,013
Speaker 2: it's happening. Where what's happening what I'm about to talk

1235
01:24:51,013 --> 01:24:58,093
Speaker 2: about very briefly in Europe, in England in particular, and

1236
01:24:58,493 --> 01:25:02,973
Speaker 2: the subject is multiculturalism. The cult of multiculturalism is regarded

1237
01:25:02,973 --> 01:25:06,653
Speaker 2: by its debtees as the pinnacle of Western achievement and

1238
01:25:06,733 --> 01:25:11,933
Speaker 2: the end of European history. After the thesis an antithesis

1239
01:25:11,973 --> 01:25:16,613
Speaker 2: of domination and enslavement, the warring clans and machine gunning

1240
01:25:16,653 --> 01:25:21,133
Speaker 2: of millions, the populations of Europe will transcend their inglorious

1241
01:25:21,253 --> 01:25:24,653
Speaker 2: arrogance and be at one with the enlightened nations.

1242
01:25:24,293 --> 01:25:24,813
Speaker 3: Of the world.

1243
01:25:25,533 --> 01:25:29,773
Speaker 2: The despotic superstructures of Europe or shelby subsumed by the

1244
01:25:29,893 --> 01:25:35,613
Speaker 2: unblemished global majority, the black, brown, and indigenous populations of

1245
01:25:35,653 --> 01:25:39,493
Speaker 2: the world, and there shall be no oppression, no hatred,

1246
01:25:40,093 --> 01:25:45,693
Speaker 2: and no poverty. In short, we multiculturalism, and then we die.

1247
01:25:46,813 --> 01:25:50,573
Speaker 2: But devotion to diversity in multiculturalism is a luxury belief

1248
01:25:51,133 --> 01:25:54,373
Speaker 2: championed by those who are able to isolate themselves from

1249
01:25:54,413 --> 01:25:57,773
Speaker 2: the consequences of their own liberal attitudes. It is a

1250
01:25:57,933 --> 01:26:02,253
Speaker 2: theology of sorts, whether it's saints and devils. Despite the

1251
01:26:02,293 --> 01:26:05,013
Speaker 2: bloodshead and the bankruptcy the torture of the tears, the

1252
01:26:05,053 --> 01:26:10,213
Speaker 2: disciples continue to believe that diversity is strength. Their faith

1253
01:26:10,333 --> 01:26:13,133
Speaker 2: endures and has only grown deeper in the face of

1254
01:26:13,213 --> 01:26:17,773
Speaker 2: adversity because of this core conviction it is better to

1255
01:26:17,813 --> 01:26:22,133
Speaker 2: be dead than racist, as the most recent example, and

1256
01:26:22,173 --> 01:26:26,733
Speaker 2: really what triggered this commentary. I want to quote you

1257
01:26:26,773 --> 01:26:29,733
Speaker 2: something that was published on the twenty first of June.

1258
01:26:30,013 --> 01:26:35,293
Speaker 2: Broadcaster Selina Scott was viciously attacked and robbed by a

1259
01:26:35,333 --> 01:26:39,253
Speaker 2: gang in broad daylight last week. She revealed the EXITV

1260
01:26:39,453 --> 01:26:43,333
Speaker 2: News at ten Anchor seventy four. Bravely fought back, but

1261
01:26:43,413 --> 01:26:47,173
Speaker 2: said the ordeal left her chatter and traumatized. She said

1262
01:26:47,173 --> 01:26:51,013
Speaker 2: she was leaving a Waterstones in Piccadilly, Central London. I

1263
01:26:51,053 --> 01:26:54,613
Speaker 2: know that shop, I go there when she was struck

1264
01:26:54,693 --> 01:26:57,253
Speaker 2: on the back of her right knee and thought that

1265
01:26:57,333 --> 01:27:00,533
Speaker 2: she'd been stabbed. A gang of around seven or eight

1266
01:27:00,573 --> 01:27:04,453
Speaker 2: men and women in expensive sportswear and seemingly of East

1267
01:27:04,493 --> 01:27:08,013
Speaker 2: Asian origin who were in front of her, then turned

1268
01:27:08,013 --> 01:27:11,413
Speaker 2: in head derrin. They tried to grab her designer backpack,

1269
01:27:11,453 --> 01:27:15,213
Speaker 2: which she tightly held onto. Another group then barged into her,

1270
01:27:15,213 --> 01:27:17,413
Speaker 2: and she realized she was being attacked from both sides

1271
01:27:17,453 --> 01:27:20,893
Speaker 2: at the same time. Selina managed to keep hold of

1272
01:27:20,933 --> 01:27:23,853
Speaker 2: the bag when she fought back, and the gang walked

1273
01:27:23,853 --> 01:27:27,853
Speaker 2: off laughing. She later realized they'd managed to unzip the

1274
01:27:27,893 --> 01:27:31,133
Speaker 2: bag and take a purse which had her driving license,

1275
01:27:31,253 --> 01:27:36,293
Speaker 2: cards and cash. Miss Scott, a TV icon since the

1276
01:27:36,373 --> 01:27:40,093
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties who famously at a viewed Donald Trump, slammed

1277
01:27:40,213 --> 01:27:43,213
Speaker 2: the lack of police presence to deter or catch the

1278
01:27:43,253 --> 01:27:46,733
Speaker 2: criminal thugs. She said she walked up and down some

1279
01:27:46,813 --> 01:27:49,973
Speaker 2: of London's busiest central areas and did not see a

1280
01:27:50,013 --> 01:27:53,893
Speaker 2: single officer. The journalist wrote in The Mail on Sunday

1281
01:27:53,933 --> 01:27:56,573
Speaker 2: that the events were so swift and practiced that it

1282
01:27:56,613 --> 01:27:59,693
Speaker 2: was clear it was a coordinated assault. She added, I

1283
01:28:00,013 --> 01:28:03,213
Speaker 2: was right by a busy bus stop, although no one

1284
01:28:03,213 --> 01:28:05,773
Speaker 2: would have known what was going on. It was slick,

1285
01:28:05,933 --> 01:28:08,973
Speaker 2: brief and clearly engineered to have in the middle of

1286
01:28:09,013 --> 01:28:12,213
Speaker 2: the crowd. I still feel shattered after what had happened.

1287
01:28:12,253 --> 01:28:15,053
Speaker 2: I can't believe it happened to me. I am mentally

1288
01:28:15,093 --> 01:28:18,053
Speaker 2: resilient and physically fit, but if they attacked me in

1289
01:28:18,093 --> 01:28:21,533
Speaker 2: such a brazen way, they can attack anyone. You're left

1290
01:28:21,533 --> 01:28:25,773
Speaker 2: feeling not just traumatized, but stupid that you have somehow

1291
01:28:25,933 --> 01:28:29,253
Speaker 2: let it happen. I'm also furious about the lack of

1292
01:28:29,293 --> 01:28:32,013
Speaker 2: police on our streets. No wonder the gang who set

1293
01:28:32,093 --> 01:28:35,413
Speaker 2: about me have a sense of impunity. They can do

1294
01:28:35,453 --> 01:28:38,613
Speaker 2: anything they want because they know that no one will

1295
01:28:38,613 --> 01:28:41,493
Speaker 2: stop them. So we know that this has been going

1296
01:28:41,533 --> 01:28:45,773
Speaker 2: on all over England. Actually plenty of it in London,

1297
01:28:45,773 --> 01:28:49,413
Speaker 2: plenty of it up north. There are many articles that

1298
01:28:49,453 --> 01:28:51,973
Speaker 2: I could quote from. It's just that that one. I

1299
01:28:52,013 --> 01:28:54,213
Speaker 2: read it and I thought I would to respond to it.

1300
01:28:54,773 --> 01:28:57,533
Speaker 2: And the article before that, by the way, was written

1301
01:28:57,533 --> 01:29:00,533
Speaker 2: by Charles Bentley Aster and what I read was only

1302
01:29:00,573 --> 01:29:04,213
Speaker 2: the first two paragraphs of about five pages. But I

1303
01:29:04,213 --> 01:29:06,773
Speaker 2: suppose you could say that what the real trigger was.

1304
01:29:06,853 --> 01:29:09,773
Speaker 2: The real trigger was a book that I have mentioned

1305
01:29:09,813 --> 01:29:13,253
Speaker 2: more than once over the years, published in twenty eleven,

1306
01:29:14,973 --> 01:29:22,453
Speaker 2: Delectable Lie. A liberal repudiation of Multiculturalism. Now, before you

1307
01:29:22,733 --> 01:29:27,253
Speaker 2: get exercised about some sort of reference to multiculturalism and

1308
01:29:27,253 --> 01:29:30,413
Speaker 2: here we go again or whatever, let me point out

1309
01:29:30,413 --> 01:29:33,733
Speaker 2: something to you. It's written by a Muslim in Canada,

1310
01:29:34,133 --> 01:29:36,333
Speaker 2: a Muslim in Canada. I quote you from the back

1311
01:29:36,373 --> 01:29:40,293
Speaker 2: of the book. My point is that although multiculturalism once

1312
01:29:40,333 --> 01:29:43,493
Speaker 2: seemed a very good idea, at least to politicians and

1313
01:29:43,653 --> 01:29:47,133
Speaker 2: others smitten with the ambition for unity, it is increasingly

1314
01:29:47,173 --> 01:29:51,053
Speaker 2: shown to be a lie, a delectable lie perhaps. Yet

1315
01:29:51,093 --> 01:29:55,333
Speaker 2: a lie. Nevertheless, that is destructive of the West's liberal,

1316
01:29:55,373 --> 01:30:00,853
Speaker 2: democratic heritage, tradition and values based on individual rights and freedoms.

1317
01:30:01,173 --> 01:30:04,813
Speaker 2: This could have been foretold as Indeed, those philosophers and

1318
01:30:05,013 --> 01:30:08,853
Speaker 2: historians of ideas who viewed freedom as in measures more

1319
01:30:08,893 --> 01:30:13,253
Speaker 2: important than equality in the development of the West did foretell.

1320
01:30:14,213 --> 01:30:18,533
Speaker 2: They admonished people against the temptation to abridge freedom in

1321
01:30:18,573 --> 01:30:22,173
Speaker 2: pursuit of equality. Do we do that in this country?

1322
01:30:22,173 --> 01:30:26,653
Speaker 2: Do you think now? The author Salem Mansur is alm

1323
01:30:26,933 --> 01:30:31,333
Speaker 2: m An su R is a professor of political science

1324
01:30:31,333 --> 01:30:36,653
Speaker 2: at the University of Western Ontario in London, Ontario. He

1325
01:30:36,813 --> 01:30:40,773
Speaker 2: is the author of a number of other books, Islam's Predicament,

1326
01:30:41,333 --> 01:30:46,253
Speaker 2: Perspectives of a Dissident Muslim, and co editor of Indira

1327
01:30:46,533 --> 01:30:51,253
Speaker 2: Rajiv Years the Indian Economy and Polity nineteen sixty six

1328
01:30:51,293 --> 01:30:55,173
Speaker 2: to nineteen ninety one. It's also nationally syndicated columnists for

1329
01:30:55,213 --> 01:30:59,213
Speaker 2: the Sun chain of newspapers in Canada and the recipient

1330
01:30:59,893 --> 01:31:07,453
Speaker 2: of the Stephen S. Wise Humanitarian Award, Profiles Encourage in

1331
01:31:07,493 --> 01:31:11,813
Speaker 2: two thousand six. You know, it's not a matter of race,

1332
01:31:11,973 --> 01:31:14,333
Speaker 2: It's a matter of and I've decided this a long

1333
01:31:14,333 --> 01:31:17,333
Speaker 2: time ago. It's a matter of culture. Basically, people can

1334
01:31:17,413 --> 01:31:21,093
Speaker 2: change their cultures, but they can't change their race, and

1335
01:31:21,173 --> 01:31:25,013
Speaker 2: the two should be considered separately. Speaking of race not

1336
01:31:25,093 --> 01:31:29,653
Speaker 2: being being able to be changed. A very fine example

1337
01:31:29,693 --> 01:31:33,333
Speaker 2: of that, while belief and culture can is ion hersey

1338
01:31:33,453 --> 01:31:36,733
Speaker 2: Eli and I've been reading quite a bit of her commentaries, Blake.

1339
01:31:37,333 --> 01:31:41,333
Speaker 2: They are worthy of your time. More power to her.

1340
01:31:41,893 --> 01:31:45,013
Speaker 2: And I know you'll say that we should get her

1341
01:31:45,053 --> 01:31:47,933
Speaker 2: on the podcast, and I don't disagree. So that will

1342
01:31:47,933 --> 01:31:50,453
Speaker 2: take us out for podcasts number two hundred and ninety.

1343
01:31:50,893 --> 01:31:54,933
Speaker 2: We love you, mail, please keep it rolling. Latent at

1344
01:31:54,973 --> 01:31:58,613
Speaker 2: NEWSTALKZNB dot co dot z, Caravin at newstalksb dot co

1345
01:31:58,773 --> 01:32:03,253
Speaker 2: dot zid nice things to me, complaints to her. We

1346
01:32:03,333 --> 01:32:06,413
Speaker 2: shall return for podcasts two hundred and ninety one very soon.

1347
01:32:06,653 --> 01:32:09,973
Speaker 2: In the meantime, as always, thank you for listening and

1348
01:32:10,053 --> 01:32:11,173
Speaker 2: we shall talk soon.

1349
01:32:18,973 --> 01:32:22,573
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from news Talks at b Listen

1350
01:32:22,693 --> 01:32:25,653
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1351
01:32:25,773 --> 01:32:28,933
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.