1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 2: daily podcast. 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: Presented by the New Zealand Herald. 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: Securities software used widely by retail staff, as in the Spotlight. 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: After an incident involving a former Green MP Goalriz Gutaman 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 2: quick Politics last year after being caught shoplifting from boutique 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: fashion stores, and news emerged earlier this month suggesting she 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: had done it again at a Pack and Save supermarket. 10 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,319 Speaker 2: But the former MP did not steal anything and the 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: store never reported the case to the police. Yet as 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: the incident was logged in the aura's security system, police 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: were able to access it and attempted to use it 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: in the court case against gutamann. 15 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: Enzed Heralden. 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: You're writer David Fisher has been looking into the case 17 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: and the scope of AURA software and joins us now 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 2: on the front Page. 19 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: David, can you. 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: Give us an overview of what happened between Guaman and 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 2: the staff at the Royal Oak Pack and Save last year. 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 3: So on October twelve last year, the day before Gora's 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 3: Garriman was due to appeal her sentence for shoplifting at 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 3: the High Court, she was at the Pack and Save 25 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 3: Supermarket in Royal Oak doing some shopping, and as she 26 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 3: was walking about the store, she was placing items in 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 3: her shopping trolley and also into a tote bag. 28 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 4: Sitting in a shopping trolley. 29 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: When I'd say tote bag, I mean one of these 30 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 3: ubiquitous not plastic any more type bags that we will 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 3: take shopping or carthouse shopping around and stop both store 32 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 3: security she was asked to empty her bags and she 33 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: did that. At that stage, she wasn't near the checkout, 34 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: she hadn't approached the checkout. She was still going about 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 3: doing her shopping. Security staff appear to be concerned about 36 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 3: the manner in which she was doing her shopping and 37 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: that led to them asking her to empty her bags. Now, 38 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 3: what we know happened after that is that the security 39 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 3: staff used a platform called Aura through which to enter 40 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 3: details of what they considered to be a retail crime incident. 41 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 3: What it does is it links retailers details get entered 42 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 3: into the system of retail crime incident and it allows 43 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 3: retailers to match incident with incident so that it improves 44 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: the level of knowledge and the picture that they have 45 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 3: across the retail space as to what crimes occurring there. 46 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: They also have an option to report it to police 47 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 3: so that it then becomes visible to police, Which is 48 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: not to say that police don't have visibility across the 49 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: AURA platform anyway. 50 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 4: They do. 51 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 3: Auras styles their partnership of New Zealand Police is one 52 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 3: of partnership, and I have a contract between AURA and 53 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 3: New Zealand Police that talks about how close that partnership is. 54 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 3: It includes having New Zealand Police talk to other companies 55 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 3: or other police forces about the benefits of the AURA platform. 56 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 3: So it was Goras Garaman's details, including a name being 57 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: entered into this crime platform, that then came to the 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 3: attention of police the day after her appeal court hearing 59 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 3: October fourteen. Police have told us there were officers going 60 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 3: through the huge number of reports that are made from 61 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 3: retailers and among those reports was the one that was 62 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: ident find involving garment. What I understand happened at that 63 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: point is that those officers or that officer that was 64 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: going through the shoplifting reports then alerted the detective senior 65 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 3: sergeant who was overseeing the inquiry into garam and shoplifting 66 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 3: from hogh End retail stores and as a result of 67 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 3: that officer becoming aware of it, he sought to raise 68 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 3: it with the High Court as a matter that should 69 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 3: be considered as part of a appeal, but he was 70 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 3: unsuccessful in doing so. Garaman was also unsuccessful in her appeal. 71 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 3: So those are the events that we understand took place. 72 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 3: And as we've seen over the last week or so, 73 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,559 Speaker 3: this blew up again. But if chatter going around found 74 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: its way out through Auckland restauranteur Leo Malloy and a 75 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 3: bit of chat on a social media a little red 76 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: blog site as well, which brought it to the public attention. 77 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: And here we are a week down the track with 78 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 3: a lot of people with a lot of questions about 79 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 3: what AURA does. Here's the question, how much access do 80 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 3: police have and can they look at everything or any 81 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 3: camera anytime any shop in New Zealand that is using AURA. 82 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 5: No, they can't, So I think you know, we aren't cameras, 83 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 5: We're not a surveillance system. Quite simply, retailers choose to 84 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 5: make the crimes that they witness in their stores visible 85 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 5: to police and then it's up to police to determine 86 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 5: how they use it information to investigate further and solve 87 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 5: more crime. So it's a way for to provide information, 88 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 5: including evidence like video, to police more efficiently. It's we're 89 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 5: just modernizing what's always happened, but rather than paper files 90 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 5: and USB sticks, we're making it digital much faster for 91 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 5: both sides. 92 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, so she's not been charged, has she? 93 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: So despite nothing really happening in this case was filed 94 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: in the Aura software used by food Stuffs which owns 95 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: pack and say, can you explain what Aura actually is? 96 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: It's a New Zealand based company, right, that's right? 97 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 4: Or is an incredible New Zealand success story. 98 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 3: Actually it launched in twenty twelve with the idea that 99 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 3: it would create a platform that would link retailers. One 100 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 3: of its pictures that I've said, talk about or seen 101 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 3: executives that the company talk about is that their technology 102 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: removes anonymity, and it does so by logging incidents of 103 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 3: retail crime concern and storing them in a database. It's 104 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 3: got incredible capabilities or as network. They're always very quick 105 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 3: to say that they don't do live facial recognition, but 106 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 3: they do have a facial recognition capability within their system. 107 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 4: I understand. 108 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 3: But information is also logged about what people wear, what 109 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 3: tattoos they might have, other distinctive characterizing features. Names can 110 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 3: be included. One of the capabilities that AURA has is 111 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: automatic number plate recognition. It will also log all of 112 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: those details. So when you drive into a supermarket car park, 113 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 3: your number plate has been captured, it can be tracked 114 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 3: as to where it's been in other areas that also 115 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 3: are covered by the URA network. And remember that's ninety 116 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: percent or more of New Zealand retail spaces. So a 117 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 3: very very powerful tool, and it can link through that 118 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: automatic license plate recognition the individuals that are associated with 119 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 3: that vehicle and who their accomplices might be. So you 120 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 3: get this extraordinary picture of who the individuals are that 121 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: are plaguing supermarkets or drive offs at petrol stations, or 122 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: all the issues that retailers face when the criminal element 123 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 3: decides that they able to parasite on their good work 124 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 3: and have something for nothing. 125 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: What about privacy though, fesh I see there's been some 126 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: concerns over number plate scanning and privacy issues in Australia 127 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: for example. 128 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: Yes, concerns in Australia and concerns here too. Privacy for 129 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: a system like AURA was always going to increase as 130 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: it went on. The longer it goes on, the better 131 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 3: its systems get, the more information it harvests, the more 132 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: places it harvests information from, and the better it gets 133 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 3: at matching that information, or is stated aim of taking 134 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 3: anonymity away as a real red flag for those that 135 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: do have these privacy concerns. You know, we need to 136 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 3: remember here too that this is a network that created 137 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 3: for retailer's purposes, but is also. 138 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 4: Used to a huge degree by police. 139 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: We know that in the past police have misused the 140 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 3: system when we were subject to COVID lockdowns. You may 141 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 3: recall that there was a hunt on for women that 142 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 3: were believed to have breached the border in and headed 143 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 3: into North and I did some reporting around that and 144 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: discovered that police had invented crimes so as to access 145 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 3: or of systems in ways that they would not have 146 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 3: been able to so that they could track those women. 147 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 3: We know, then, from the subsequent police audit that was 148 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 3: done as a result of the discovery that police misused 149 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 3: the system, that it wasn't the only time that. 150 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 6: Police had misused the system. The guardrails that have been 151 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 6: put in place around police using the system were all 152 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 6: so horribly inadequate. There'd be no real privacy assessment that 153 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 6: had been done or enacted. And that was the Australian 154 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 6: experience as well. The Australian Federal Police had signed on 155 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 6: and worked to exploit the system without having carried out 156 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 6: any sort of a privacy assessment. And this is a 157 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 6: real concern when we have a really strongly diminishing private 158 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 6: space in the country, that we have systems and networks 159 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 6: like this become increasingly powerful. I'd remember a conversation I 160 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 6: had with somebody who worked for one our intelligence agencies, 161 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 6: and that individual had said to me, with a real 162 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 6: hunger in their voice, if only we could get access 163 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 6: to what Google has, And they had said to me, 164 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 6: private surveillance is something that should be a far greater 165 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 6: concern to the public than government surveillance. Now, of course 166 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 6: they would say that I have a view, having covered 167 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 6: a number of intelligence agency breaches, that we should always 168 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 6: be concerned about what the government's doing with our information. 169 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 4: But it's a good point. 170 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 3: Private companies have a high degree of freedom when it 171 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: comes to developing and implementing these types of systems. 172 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 4: It's an issue. 173 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: Which has been picked up by the officer of the 174 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 3: Privacy Commissioner in New Zealand. They currently have work underway 175 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 3: on what's called a biometric code and what they mean 176 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 3: by a biometric code is a set of rules for 177 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 3: anyone that's gathering identifying information about an individual. That can 178 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 3: be information is simp as having CCTV of how people walk, 179 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: and if you're using how people walk as a means 180 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 3: to track them through multiple CCTV cameras, that makes a 181 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 3: biometric information. That's the sort of information that the Privacy 182 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,119 Speaker 3: Commissioner is looking at putting some pretty strict rules around. 183 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 7: An AORA spokesperson said Australian Federal Police carried out a 184 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 7: full privacy assessment of AURA in twenty twenty three, which 185 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 7: gave them comfort to continue using the software. AURA is 186 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 7: committed to empowering retailers and law enforcement to improve public 187 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 7: safety and keep our community safe. Or are frequently engages 188 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 7: with regulators and has done so for more than a decade. 189 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 7: AURA will continue to work with a New Zealand Privacy commission. 190 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: It sounds like this technology is what is one of 191 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 2: those instances where our information and our likeness and the 192 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 2: way we walk and our faces are being captured and 193 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: we just have to trust in the authorities that it's 194 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 2: not going to be used for nefarious purposes. Do you 195 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: think that there are enough of those kind of balances 196 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: in place for it not to fall into the wrong hands. 197 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: Well, it's always difficult when you're talking about private companies 198 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 3: because we have a degree of oversight of how government 199 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 3: agency responds through the way that we cast our votes, 200 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: the decisions that government ministers will make, and the things 201 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 3: that government agencies will put in place, And there's a 202 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 3: general public good. 203 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 4: That lies underneath that. 204 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 3: For private companies, and I'm not talking about or specifically here, 205 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: companies would very much like to do things that are 206 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 3: in the public good, but making money is what they're 207 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 3: there for. You know, they have to return some form 208 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 3: of benefit to their investors, and so the normal rules 209 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: don't necessarily apply. There are systems in place like the 210 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 3: Office of the Prison they commissioner to say to these needs, Hey, 211 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 3: we have a privacy law. We'd like to run a 212 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 3: ruler over you as to how you comply with it. 213 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 3: But technology increases a pace. The development that happens within 214 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 3: companies like Aura that also happens at a rapid pace, 215 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: and regulators need to work really really hard to keep 216 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 3: up with that and quite possibly need more funding, need 217 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: more resource, need more. 218 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 4: Expertise to do that. 219 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 3: I asked the Privacy Commissioner and Police about a year ago, 220 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: do you know how many cameras are connected to the 221 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: AURA system? 222 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 4: Neither of them. 223 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 3: The police have now done a privacy assessment around their 224 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 3: interaction with AURA, or they've had AURA do their privacy assessment. 225 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: I dare say things have changed a huge amount since 226 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 3: when that was done and where we are now to 227 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 3: have the AURA system covering ninety percent of New Zealand 228 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: retail spaces over the course of really only be going 229 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 3: for about ten years or so, it's an incredible advance 230 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 3: and I would argue that every incremental increase in the 231 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 3: ability to surveil the public really gives you a new 232 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,599 Speaker 3: set of metrics that you need to apply to the 233 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 3: rules that we have in place for our society. It's 234 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 3: ninety percent here in New Zealand, fifty percent of Australian 235 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: retail places covered and booming success in America's Don't get 236 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 3: me wrong. From a startup perspective, this company has done 237 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 3: incredibly well. Twenty twenty one, they were valued around thirty 238 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 3: million dollars. The Australian Financial Review last year valued them 239 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 3: around five hundred million dollars. That's a meteoric rise. And 240 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 3: making sure that you're doing all the things that you 241 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 3: need to do during a incredible surge of growth like 242 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 3: that happening, that's a difficult thing for a company. 243 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 4: To get a handle on. 244 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 3: I'd like to see them be more directly open with 245 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 3: the public about what they're gathering and what they're doing 246 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: with it. I'd like to see a government more proactive 247 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 3: in letting people know things like, for example, you can 248 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 3: go to NZTA and you can say I don't want 249 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 3: my name and address associated with my license plate for 250 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 3: companies like Ora to have access to there's a degree 251 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: of choice that the public has about how much we 252 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 3: buy or buy out of this, but there is not 253 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: much information there to make the public aware. We need 254 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 3: far far more assertive regulation from the regulator, far more 255 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 3: information coming out to the public, and we need Ora 256 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 3: to be proactively more engaging with the public around this 257 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 3: and really police, you know, police will be the ones 258 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: I would think out of any agency that makes the 259 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 3: greatest use of this technology. We need from police a 260 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 3: huge amount of openness around how this is being used 261 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 3: and police right from the outset of discussions that I've 262 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 3: had that other media have had with them around their 263 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 3: use of AURA have not been anywhere near as open 264 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 3: as they should have been. 265 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, David, Thanks Chelsea. 266 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 267 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: can read more about today's and extensive news coverage at 268 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced 269 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also a 270 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 2: sound engineer. 271 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 272 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 273 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 274 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,359 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.