1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Back to COVID Part two, ironically released as the country 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: faces its latest wave. I'm told thirty one thousand submissions 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: were made. You know what it says by now. Initial 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: response was fine, it went downhill from there. Chrishipkins as 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: the Labor leader and former COVID minister, of course, and 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: is with us. Good morning, Good morning, Mike. 7 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 2: I'm please you haven't lost my number. 8 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: Completely, No worries at all. It's on a speed dial 9 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: for appropriate occasions. Should I feel sorry for you? I 10 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: felt a bit sorry for you yesterday getting beaten up 11 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: in the house. 12 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: Oh look, I mean the next politics, isn't it. I 13 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 2: mean it's always easy to look back on things when 14 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: you've got two and a half years to look at 15 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: them in retrospect and say you could have done this, 16 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 2: could have done that, could have done this. It was 17 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: a pretty extraordinary time. I think the COVID Royal Commission, 18 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: despite its loaded terms of reference, actually came up with 19 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 2: a pretty fear and balanced report. 20 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: Would you argue it was actually needed given you stitched 21 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: up Phase one? 22 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: No, I think I mean I disagree that we stitched 23 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: up Phase one. But while I was skeptical about the 24 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 2: terms of reference, that I'm on record as being skeptical 25 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: about that. I actually think they did a pretty good 26 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: job and I think it's a useful to the record 27 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: of what happened during the COVID period. 28 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: The twelve to seventeen mandate thing wasn't part of Phase one, 29 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: was part of Phase two. That alone makes Phase two worthwhile, 30 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: doesn't it. 31 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: I certainly think they've highlighted a real issue there, which 32 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 2: was that while Minister's got some initial advice and queried 33 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: there to the actual advice that raised concerns about you know, 34 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: myocarditis for those younger people being vaccinated was never given 35 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: to ministers. And yes, that highlighted I think a. 36 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: Very real issue is that on Bloomfield, I know with. 37 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: Someone, whether it was someone or a group of people 38 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 2: within the Ministry of Health clearly didn't pass that evidence 39 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: on to the ministers. And I think that is a 40 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: failing of the Ministry of Health. 41 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: But if you believe in the buck stops at the top, 42 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Bloomfield was at the top and he didn't pass it on, 43 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: it's on him, isn't it. 44 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: You could argue that I think Ashley Bloomfield, on balance, 45 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: you know, it did an outstanding job and he was 46 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: getting a lot of advice and a lot of information. 47 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,559 Speaker 2: I've disappointed that BIS didn't come to ministers. I don't 48 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: know whether that was specifically his decision or someone else's. 49 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: Could you argue that if you got that advice you 50 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: would have one hundred percent acted on it. 51 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 2: Well, of course I don't know, but reading it now, yes, 52 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: it raises concerns that I certainly would have had some 53 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: very serious conversations with them about of. 54 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: The problems that have been highlighted, what would you argue 55 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: were the most damaging the medical side of the equation 56 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: or the financial side of the equation. 57 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: I think the medical side of the equation. Actually, if 58 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 2: you look at the concerns about the vaccine being rolled 59 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: rushed in its roll out and not being properly approved 60 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: and so on, I actually think the Royal Commission did 61 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: a very good job of going through that in great 62 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: detail and saying no, actually this was a thorough process, 63 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: it was very safe and you know, the right steps 64 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 2: were followed. So I think the Royal Commission actually did 65 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: a very good job of speaking to those concerns. The 66 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: broader issues around the economy and around government spending and 67 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 2: so on, there's a lot of political arguments in there. 68 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: The Royal Commission have a view, various economists to have 69 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: a view, we would have a view, The current government 70 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: have a view, and I don't think everyone's going to 71 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: have a completely aligned to you on that. 72 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: No Piker do you see? To me? Was when Stuart 73 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: Nash was on this program arguing that fishing boat cameras 74 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: money was from COVID and I thought this was too 75 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: mental for words. Do you with the benefit of hindsight 76 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: except that you went nuts with the money? 77 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: Well, some of the things that the government did during 78 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: that period of things we would have done anyway. Some 79 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: of the things that recorded as COVID nineteen expended doors 80 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: not COVID nineteen expenditure, and the Royal Commission's reported I 81 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: would argue, actually were so things like supporting kids to 82 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: learn from home, you know, providing them resources to learn 83 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: from home. They said, that's not related to COVID nineteen. 84 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: I would say that actually telling kids that they needed 85 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: to keep doing this schooling while their at home is 86 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: related to COVID nine. 87 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: What about fishing boat cameras. 88 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot there were things that the government was 89 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: doing at that time that they argue it was not 90 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: COVID nineteen expenditure. That's probably fear. I think the government 91 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: would have ended up doing those things anyway. 92 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: Right, what about school lunches? 93 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: The school lunch was part of our work to get 94 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: the country back to work, and maybe we should have actually, well, 95 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: maybe we should have called it something else. Maybe we 96 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: should have actually separated and said, look, there's the COVID 97 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: nineteen response Fund, and there's the Broad Economic Recovery and 98 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: we should have actually, maybe we should have called them, 99 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: you know, different things. But making sure the economy rebounded 100 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: from COVID nineteen was a priority for the government, and 101 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 2: those that fund did both of those things. 102 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: Is there any difficulty that sits with you at the moment? See, 103 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: I know that Robinson put out a statement along with 104 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: the Dune yesterday and Bloomfield isn't talking and ill I mean, 105 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: everyone's run for the hills and you're the last SAP standing. 106 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: I mean, does it would you like a bit of 107 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: support from them, like. 108 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: They're allowed to move on with their lives. I mean, 109 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: it's pretty unusual for a government to be subjected to 110 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 2: the amount of Post Office scrutiny that they have been, 111 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: you know, very few. I mean, John ket you could 112 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: have gone back and had a Royal commission on the 113 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: government's response and to the Canterbury earthquakes after he had 114 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: left office. I don't think that never happened. You know, 115 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: you can always go back, but eventually people are allowed 116 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: to move on with their lives. 117 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Okay. Do you feel one that this will still be 118 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: a part of some people's votes come November and two? 119 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: If it is, have you been contrite enough? 120 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: I think if it's a part of I don't think 121 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: it will be a part of a lot of people's votes. 122 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: But I think for those who is you know who, 123 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,679 Speaker 2: it is a major issue. I'm not sure that anything's 124 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: going to change their perspectives on it. I think they 125 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: will have locked in their view one way or the other. 126 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: So do you feel you've been contrite at all or not? 127 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 2: Well? I mean I said years ago actually that I 128 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,679 Speaker 2: thought that that transition from COVID nineteen elimination to ending 129 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: the lockdowns, ending the boundary around Auckland and sort of 130 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 2: the living with COVID in the community was not as 131 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: good as I would have liked it to have been. 132 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: I think there are some of the Walk Commission's criticisms 133 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: of that are actually quite. 134 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: Fear Did you actually make mistakes like straight up and 135 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: down black and white? I got that wrongs, Yeah, I mean. 136 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 2: If you look at the I mean I've said this before. 137 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 2: I think if I could go back and make decisions 138 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 2: again on the end of the lockdown and Auckland, I 139 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: would do that differently. If I was going to make mistakes, 140 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: you make decisions around the role out of rap testing 141 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 2: where there was a conflict between ministers and the Ministry 142 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: of Health, I would have pushed harder to do that faster. 143 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: So you know, I think not doing some of those 144 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: things were mistakes, and if I could go back and 145 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 2: do them again, I would do them differently. 146 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: One of the things in the report that appeals to 147 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: me in terms of an idea is there's a pressing 148 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: need quote unquote to reduce public debt to provide a 149 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: buffer for future pandemics or other economic shocks. And yet 150 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: I read with Barbara Edmonds in this now famous article 151 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: with Thomas Coglan, She's not running a surplus anytime soon, 152 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: so public debt's not going down. So you still run 153 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: the same ideology, and when the next pandemic arrives you'll 154 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: be no better prepared than you were last time. 155 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 2: No, I disagree with that assertion, Mike. I think what 156 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: we have to have as a conversation of the country 157 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: about how we pay for the things that we need 158 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: to do. We need to build some long lived infrastructure, 159 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: and borrowings of those things is actually a very reasonable 160 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: thing to do, such as if you're buying a new house, 161 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: you might borrow some money and you pay that off 162 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 2: over time. The issue is if you're borrowing to pay 163 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: the power bill, then that's not sustainable. So we do 164 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: need to get to a position as a country where 165 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,119 Speaker 2: we're no longer borrowing to pay for things like people 166 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: on jobs that could benefits and superannuation. But borrowing for 167 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: investment and long lived assets that will benefit future generations 168 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: is a legitimate thing for governments to do. 169 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: But you're not reducing public debt, and if you're not 170 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: reducing public that you're not preparing the country. So that's 171 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: a worry, isn't it. 172 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: And I disagree because actually some of those long lived assets, 173 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: the investment in those things is about preparing the country. 174 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: So to think about some of those shocks that we 175 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: might see in the future. Climate change more severe weather events. 176 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: I'm talking about pandemic now, I'm talking about pandemics. I mean, 177 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: if you build a new road, closing a road and 178 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: a pandemic's not really going to help us, is it. 179 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: The governments actually need to look at all of the 180 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: risks facing the country, not just one. And if you 181 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 2: look about something like you know we're going to get 182 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: more extra weather events, we need a resilient infrastructure that 183 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: can cope with that. So investing in that now so 184 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: that we don't have to spend even more money cleaning 185 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: up and repairing afterwards as we're currently doing is actually 186 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: a very legitimate thing and very sensible thing for governments 187 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: to do. 188 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: You're glad it's ober now. 189 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: I was glad it was over years ago. You know, 190 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: if anybody who thinks that we were sitting there enjoying 191 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: ourselves during that time is diluted. You know, it was 192 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 2: probably one of the most stressful things that any government 193 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: can go through. It was a once in a generation, 194 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: something that the country hasn't had to deal with for 195 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: one hundred years, and it was all consuming and bloody 196 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: heart and I'm very pleased that we're not dealing with 197 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: that now. 198 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: Appreciate your time. Chris Sipkins, Leader of the Leader of 199 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: the Labor Party and Minister of various aspects of the 200 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: COVID response. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen 201 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,239 Speaker 1: live to news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, 202 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio