1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talk ZEDB. Follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,733 --> 00:00:20,133 Speaker 2: So we are talking about the new roadside drug testing 4 00:00:20,133 --> 00:00:22,773 Speaker 2: that will be rolled out nationwide from mid next year. 5 00:00:22,813 --> 00:00:26,173 Speaker 2: It's going to start in Wellington next month as a trial. 6 00:00:26,412 --> 00:00:28,333 Speaker 2: So to chat about this further, we are joined by 7 00:00:28,373 --> 00:00:31,932 Speaker 2: the executive director of the New Zealand Drug Foundation, Sarah Helm, 8 00:00:31,973 --> 00:00:34,973 Speaker 2: who is on the phones right now. Sarah, A very 9 00:00:35,013 --> 00:00:37,373 Speaker 2: good afternoon to you. Thank you very much for joining us. 10 00:00:37,773 --> 00:00:41,693 Speaker 3: Get a now, Sarah, drugs are often lumped in together, 11 00:00:42,053 --> 00:00:45,452 Speaker 3: but surely cocaine has a very different effect on people's 12 00:00:45,492 --> 00:00:48,173 Speaker 3: concentration compared to say marijuana. 13 00:00:49,853 --> 00:00:50,772 Speaker 2: Oh i'd so. 14 00:00:50,893 --> 00:00:55,693 Speaker 4: Both impear your ability to drive actually, but what is 15 00:00:55,813 --> 00:00:58,413 Speaker 4: really different is how long they say in your body 16 00:00:58,773 --> 00:01:02,693 Speaker 4: and how long they impear you. And those things are 17 00:01:02,773 --> 00:01:05,653 Speaker 4: quite important when it comes to roadside drug testing and 18 00:01:05,693 --> 00:01:10,853 Speaker 4: actually four people who are trying to avoid driving while 19 00:01:10,933 --> 00:01:14,973 Speaker 4: impeered and knowing how long something has affected you and 20 00:01:15,053 --> 00:01:18,452 Speaker 4: knowing how long it lasts in your system, and you know, 21 00:01:18,773 --> 00:01:21,333 Speaker 4: so for example, with cannabis, you might be impaired for 22 00:01:21,413 --> 00:01:24,853 Speaker 4: a few hours and it stays in your system and 23 00:01:24,973 --> 00:01:28,533 Speaker 4: can't be detected by something like a Salivia test for 24 00:01:28,853 --> 00:01:32,533 Speaker 4: as many as seventy two hours. So there's quite a 25 00:01:32,572 --> 00:01:33,213 Speaker 4: big gap there. 26 00:01:33,652 --> 00:01:36,853 Speaker 3: So you're saying that cocaine, which is an upper compairs 27 00:01:36,932 --> 00:01:39,572 Speaker 3: you the same as marijuana, which is a downer. 28 00:01:41,093 --> 00:01:44,253 Speaker 4: I actually wouldn't hazard to guess that they would impear 29 00:01:44,253 --> 00:01:47,373 Speaker 4: you the same, but they would cause impairment. Yeah, I 30 00:01:47,773 --> 00:01:49,293 Speaker 4: would say you wouldn't be safe to drive. 31 00:01:49,333 --> 00:01:53,853 Speaker 3: So what is the study saying on that the comparison 32 00:01:53,893 --> 00:01:56,613 Speaker 3: between between the two. I just find it really really 33 00:01:56,613 --> 00:02:00,213 Speaker 3: odd when we say drink driving. So that's alcohol, and 34 00:02:00,253 --> 00:02:03,053 Speaker 3: we know what alcohol is and it's absolutely horrific and 35 00:02:03,053 --> 00:02:05,653 Speaker 3: we shouldn't drive on it, absolutely, and we put it there. 36 00:02:05,893 --> 00:02:08,013 Speaker 3: But then with the drugs, we just all lump them 37 00:02:08,013 --> 00:02:10,493 Speaker 3: into GEI They're like they're the exact same thing. 38 00:02:11,453 --> 00:02:14,733 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's right, and that is problematic. I think 39 00:02:14,813 --> 00:02:18,213 Speaker 4: more problems from the perspective of chying to prevent people 40 00:02:18,252 --> 00:02:21,773 Speaker 4: from driving impeered. I can't stand across the evidence between 41 00:02:22,293 --> 00:02:25,413 Speaker 4: whether or not you'd be less impaired on versus cannabis. 42 00:02:25,413 --> 00:02:27,893 Speaker 4: It would depend on the person, how much they're taken, 43 00:02:28,013 --> 00:02:32,053 Speaker 4: whether they've taken anything else, et cetera, et cetera. There's 44 00:02:32,053 --> 00:02:33,252 Speaker 4: a lot of nuance in there. 45 00:02:33,453 --> 00:02:36,453 Speaker 3: That's an interesting That's another interesting point that I've been thinking. 46 00:02:36,493 --> 00:02:39,293 Speaker 3: So when we look at these these stats and their 47 00:02:39,453 --> 00:02:42,893 Speaker 3: you know, and deaths while people are impaired on drugs, 48 00:02:43,133 --> 00:02:46,613 Speaker 3: how much is the crossover between that and alcohol? So 49 00:02:46,693 --> 00:02:50,053 Speaker 3: people that are both both have been drinking and also 50 00:02:50,133 --> 00:02:51,972 Speaker 3: taking illegal substances. 51 00:02:53,093 --> 00:02:55,733 Speaker 4: Yeah, just before I answer, I do want to say that, 52 00:02:56,013 --> 00:03:00,933 Speaker 4: you know, like most thew Zealanders, we're really keen to 53 00:03:00,972 --> 00:03:04,972 Speaker 4: see impeered drivers, whether it's from illicit drug use or 54 00:03:05,013 --> 00:03:08,132 Speaker 4: anything else, off the roads and not harming people. So 55 00:03:08,972 --> 00:03:11,413 Speaker 4: we're on the side of that. It's just about getting right. 56 00:03:12,252 --> 00:03:15,173 Speaker 4: But anyway, coming back to your question, the thirty percent 57 00:03:15,413 --> 00:03:18,453 Speaker 4: of fatal accidents, it's one hundred and five people who 58 00:03:18,693 --> 00:03:21,573 Speaker 4: very sadly die in our roads every year. That are 59 00:03:22,133 --> 00:03:24,973 Speaker 4: you know, where there is some sort of substance involved. 60 00:03:25,693 --> 00:03:30,173 Speaker 4: Actually that figure includes prescription medications, which you know we 61 00:03:30,213 --> 00:03:32,373 Speaker 4: all know as humans can embarra us. I've had some 62 00:03:32,493 --> 00:03:35,253 Speaker 4: migraine medication that I tell you what, you wouldn't have 63 00:03:35,693 --> 00:03:37,733 Speaker 4: wanted me to be in charge of anything while I 64 00:03:37,773 --> 00:03:41,773 Speaker 4: was on those so prescription medications, there might also be 65 00:03:41,893 --> 00:03:46,493 Speaker 4: an overlap with alcohol, but that figure apparently doesn't include alcohol. 66 00:03:47,013 --> 00:03:51,053 Speaker 4: So yeah, the evidence that's been put out isn't very 67 00:03:51,053 --> 00:03:54,493 Speaker 4: clear in terms of what substances are causing what kind 68 00:03:54,533 --> 00:03:56,373 Speaker 4: of harm out on the roads. 69 00:03:56,813 --> 00:03:58,053 Speaker 2: Is it going to be picked up? I mean, talk 70 00:03:58,093 --> 00:04:00,413 Speaker 2: about the prescription medicine. A lot of people are obviously 71 00:04:00,453 --> 00:04:02,653 Speaker 2: on prescription drugs and they might not drive within the 72 00:04:02,693 --> 00:04:05,533 Speaker 2: window that their doctor or pharmacist tells them. But is 73 00:04:05,533 --> 00:04:07,453 Speaker 2: there still a potential for that to be picked up 74 00:04:07,453 --> 00:04:09,973 Speaker 2: in these tests and those people may get fined. 75 00:04:11,133 --> 00:04:12,933 Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is a little bit of a problem, 76 00:04:12,933 --> 00:04:16,332 Speaker 4: and there is some unknowns here and we have actually 77 00:04:16,413 --> 00:04:19,853 Speaker 4: sent some questions to the officials to ask with some clarity. 78 00:04:20,333 --> 00:04:23,533 Speaker 4: So one of the things we're picking up from, you know, 79 00:04:23,613 --> 00:04:28,213 Speaker 4: particularly people who are prescribed ADHD medications, they want to 80 00:04:28,213 --> 00:04:31,733 Speaker 4: know whether the methamphetamine salivet tests will pickick that up 81 00:04:31,773 --> 00:04:34,613 Speaker 4: for them and whether or not they'll be therefore deemed 82 00:04:34,653 --> 00:04:37,613 Speaker 4: to be impaired, So how the test will work. And 83 00:04:37,653 --> 00:04:40,173 Speaker 4: then actually, so I'll explain how the test works because 84 00:04:40,213 --> 00:04:43,253 Speaker 4: there's another factor that's involved here. So you have on 85 00:04:43,293 --> 00:04:46,813 Speaker 4: the roadside two saliviritiess. So if you pass the first one, 86 00:04:46,853 --> 00:04:49,253 Speaker 4: you're free to go. If you fail the first one, 87 00:04:49,253 --> 00:04:52,773 Speaker 4: you're given another Salivi test. If you fail both of 88 00:04:52,813 --> 00:04:57,213 Speaker 4: those salive tests, you're immediately unable to drive for twelve hours. 89 00:04:57,253 --> 00:04:59,453 Speaker 4: You have to find your way home some other way. 90 00:05:00,453 --> 00:05:03,853 Speaker 4: Your sample is then sent off for further testing in 91 00:05:03,893 --> 00:05:07,973 Speaker 4: a lab and it's tested for twenty five substances. And 92 00:05:08,013 --> 00:05:10,773 Speaker 4: I don't know what those twenty five subs might be. 93 00:05:10,853 --> 00:05:15,093 Speaker 4: I presume some of them will be medications if they've found. 94 00:05:15,293 --> 00:05:18,213 Speaker 4: If they found, you have then fined and you receive 95 00:05:18,293 --> 00:05:20,893 Speaker 4: the demerit points. You don't receive a criminal prosecution for 96 00:05:20,933 --> 00:05:23,413 Speaker 4: this unless you refuse to be tested and they make 97 00:05:23,453 --> 00:05:26,413 Speaker 4: you have a blood test in YadA YadA. But in 98 00:05:26,493 --> 00:05:28,973 Speaker 4: this first instance, you actually might get picked up for 99 00:05:29,013 --> 00:05:30,973 Speaker 4: a number of things, and we don't know what those 100 00:05:31,053 --> 00:05:33,813 Speaker 4: number of things are. We do know what's in the legislation. 101 00:05:33,973 --> 00:05:38,813 Speaker 4: The legislation is very prescriptive, and it does include a 102 00:05:38,933 --> 00:05:42,293 Speaker 4: range of prescription medications, as in a way it should. 103 00:05:43,093 --> 00:05:48,053 Speaker 4: But perhaps so what these tests don't show is whether 104 00:05:48,133 --> 00:05:52,093 Speaker 4: or not somebody is actually current currently impaired, and so 105 00:05:52,213 --> 00:05:55,533 Speaker 4: the person may well have been whether it's illicit or 106 00:05:55,533 --> 00:05:59,813 Speaker 4: a prescription medication cannabis to you know, an antidepressant or 107 00:05:59,813 --> 00:06:02,693 Speaker 4: something anti anxiety means I think are listed in there. 108 00:06:03,133 --> 00:06:05,373 Speaker 4: They might have followed all the instructions and done all 109 00:06:05,373 --> 00:06:09,253 Speaker 4: the right things and still be penalized. They might be impaired, 110 00:06:09,373 --> 00:06:12,733 Speaker 4: and those tests aren't sophisticated enough to show that as 111 00:06:12,773 --> 00:06:15,893 Speaker 4: far as we know, certainly all evidence points to that, 112 00:06:15,933 --> 00:06:19,533 Speaker 4: but we actually also haven't been told what technology will 113 00:06:19,573 --> 00:06:21,653 Speaker 4: be being used, so there's a whole lot of questions 114 00:06:22,053 --> 00:06:24,653 Speaker 4: that still we don't quite know the answers to. 115 00:06:25,973 --> 00:06:28,533 Speaker 3: We're talking to executive director of the New Zealand Drug Foundation, 116 00:06:28,893 --> 00:06:31,413 Speaker 3: Sarah Helm. Now this is a text has come through 117 00:06:31,453 --> 00:06:33,853 Speaker 3: from Bill. If someone tests positive and I think I 118 00:06:33,893 --> 00:06:36,253 Speaker 3: know the answer to this, but if someone tests positive, 119 00:06:36,293 --> 00:06:38,613 Speaker 3: is that then give the police reason to search your 120 00:06:38,693 --> 00:06:39,813 Speaker 3: car or your house. 121 00:06:41,253 --> 00:06:44,573 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a great question. We understand. There's a line 122 00:06:44,613 --> 00:06:48,893 Speaker 4: around this, and the penalties are just to merit points 123 00:06:48,893 --> 00:06:53,133 Speaker 4: and are fine as opposed to criminal prosecution. Unless indeed 124 00:06:53,533 --> 00:06:56,453 Speaker 4: you refuse to be tested, then they can make you 125 00:06:56,533 --> 00:06:58,973 Speaker 4: have a blood test and if that results in you 126 00:06:59,333 --> 00:07:02,893 Speaker 4: having something detected, they could press criminal charges at that 127 00:07:02,933 --> 00:07:08,013 Speaker 4: point another thing, just I'd love to just chip in here. 128 00:07:08,333 --> 00:07:11,493 Speaker 4: When we made our submission to this piece of legislation, 129 00:07:12,173 --> 00:07:14,493 Speaker 4: one of the things that we're really keen to see 130 00:07:14,693 --> 00:07:19,253 Speaker 4: is an impairment methodology. So we don't want none of 131 00:07:19,293 --> 00:07:21,333 Speaker 4: us want any impaired drives on the road, right and 132 00:07:21,373 --> 00:07:23,773 Speaker 4: you might be impaired for a range of reasons, including 133 00:07:23,813 --> 00:07:28,053 Speaker 4: prescription or illicit medication drugs. You might also be impaired 134 00:07:28,053 --> 00:07:31,053 Speaker 4: because you didn't sleep first three days or you know whatever. 135 00:07:32,773 --> 00:07:36,653 Speaker 4: If the person fails that first elive test, what we 136 00:07:36,693 --> 00:07:40,253 Speaker 4: would have preferred is that the police then conduct a 137 00:07:40,333 --> 00:07:43,053 Speaker 4: traditional impairment test. We don't think they're going to pick 138 00:07:43,133 --> 00:07:47,253 Speaker 4: up that many people that are you know, fail that 139 00:07:47,293 --> 00:07:49,973 Speaker 4: first test in any case, and we know that the 140 00:07:50,013 --> 00:07:52,013 Speaker 4: problem with the impairment test is it takes a bit 141 00:07:52,053 --> 00:07:55,093 Speaker 4: of time or can we not take that bit of 142 00:07:55,133 --> 00:07:57,853 Speaker 4: time with those people? And then therefore you've got a 143 00:07:57,893 --> 00:07:59,653 Speaker 4: real reason for getting them off the road. 144 00:07:59,813 --> 00:08:01,773 Speaker 3: I mean, it seems if you're going to take you know, 145 00:08:01,853 --> 00:08:05,893 Speaker 3: suspend them from driving for twelve hours, then an impairment 146 00:08:05,933 --> 00:08:09,093 Speaker 3: test would be you know, that's not everyone. You know, 147 00:08:09,133 --> 00:08:10,573 Speaker 3: there seems there'd be time for that. And when you 148 00:08:10,613 --> 00:08:13,213 Speaker 3: talk about an impairment test, is that the traditional things, 149 00:08:13,253 --> 00:08:15,453 Speaker 3: you know, walking in a straight line and touching your 150 00:08:15,493 --> 00:08:16,973 Speaker 3: fingers on your nose and that kind of stuff. 151 00:08:17,573 --> 00:08:21,053 Speaker 4: It's my understanding. There's also new technology. It's not quite 152 00:08:21,053 --> 00:08:23,733 Speaker 4: ready for roadside, but we've been working with a company 153 00:08:24,173 --> 00:08:28,253 Speaker 4: who have produced it pretty effectively from what we can see, 154 00:08:28,293 --> 00:08:32,013 Speaker 4: for workplaces, so as an alternative to the old fashioned 155 00:08:32,093 --> 00:08:36,293 Speaker 4: drug screening because it picks up more things essentially, and 156 00:08:36,293 --> 00:08:39,413 Speaker 4: it is much more accurate, and they're trying to develop 157 00:08:39,453 --> 00:08:41,933 Speaker 4: that for roadside and last I heard it was eighty 158 00:08:41,973 --> 00:08:46,492 Speaker 4: percent effective for roadside. So there is actually technology coming 159 00:08:46,533 --> 00:08:50,132 Speaker 4: on streams that I think would be a preferable alternative, 160 00:08:50,132 --> 00:08:53,893 Speaker 4: and it might also New Zealanders thinking about actually am 161 00:08:53,933 --> 00:08:56,573 Speaker 4: I fit to drive today? Should I be getting in 162 00:08:56,573 --> 00:08:57,973 Speaker 4: this car versus? 163 00:08:58,132 --> 00:08:58,372 Speaker 1: Shit? 164 00:08:58,492 --> 00:09:02,252 Speaker 4: How long ago did I have that weed? Can I 165 00:09:02,293 --> 00:09:03,973 Speaker 4: get away with driving now? 166 00:09:04,252 --> 00:09:04,453 Speaker 1: Yeah? 167 00:09:04,453 --> 00:09:06,412 Speaker 4: I mean it's really not that around. 168 00:09:06,612 --> 00:09:09,613 Speaker 3: I have even around just impaired from not sleeping and 169 00:09:09,653 --> 00:09:12,093 Speaker 3: being tired as well. I mean, just the impairment is 170 00:09:12,132 --> 00:09:14,532 Speaker 3: the problem, isn't it now? So the New Zealand Drug 171 00:09:14,612 --> 00:09:17,453 Speaker 3: Foundation here just broadly with these questions you have to ask, 172 00:09:17,653 --> 00:09:22,013 Speaker 3: and the obviously that the bits that haven't been announced yet. 173 00:09:22,252 --> 00:09:25,732 Speaker 3: Are you guys broadly for this or broadly against it? 174 00:09:25,813 --> 00:09:29,773 Speaker 4: Probably just somewhere in the middle, a few unknowns there. 175 00:09:30,173 --> 00:09:32,413 Speaker 4: So we don't want to see people unfairly penalized. We 176 00:09:32,453 --> 00:09:35,012 Speaker 4: don't want to people see people harmed on the roads, 177 00:09:35,012 --> 00:09:37,573 Speaker 4: whether the other person is doing the thing or the 178 00:09:37,653 --> 00:09:41,333 Speaker 4: victim of it. So you know, we would prefer us 179 00:09:41,372 --> 00:09:44,893 Speaker 4: to take more of an impairment approach, maybe trial the thing. 180 00:09:45,012 --> 00:09:47,093 Speaker 4: But we also are in Australia right now at an 181 00:09:47,132 --> 00:09:50,252 Speaker 4: addiction conference and I know that there's problems here with 182 00:09:50,453 --> 00:09:53,813 Speaker 4: a similar sort of regime that's enforced. 183 00:09:53,852 --> 00:09:56,852 Speaker 2: So yeah, really good to get your thoughts. Sarah, thank 184 00:09:56,892 --> 00:10:00,133 Speaker 2: you very much for coming on No Worries. That is 185 00:10:00,173 --> 00:10:03,612 Speaker 2: the executive director of the New Zealand Drug Foundation, Sierrah Helm. 186 00:10:04,053 --> 00:10:06,693 Speaker 1: For more from news Talks, there'd be listen live on 187 00:10:06,773 --> 00:10:09,732 Speaker 1: air or online and keep our shows with you wherever 188 00:10:09,813 --> 00:10:12,373 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.